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00:00:07,150\n謝主席谷主委有請請谷主委谷主委早安今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少\n\n2\n00:00:29,605 --> 00:00:54,879\n因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課與能力的\n\n3\n00:00:55,717 --> 00:01:21,374\n基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課與保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年在課與認證大概都通過多少人全國全國一萬五千人左右\n\n4\n00:01:24,625 --> 00:01:43,194\n去年應該說今年今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年齁都在考試還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五前年前年多一點再往前一年呢\n\n5\n00:01:50,034 --> 00:02:05,355\n就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢有有有我們有資料像出種馬松也出了也有經驗的資料以你以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還是減少減少其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:08,140 --> 00:02:19,549\n感受到居住人員已經在學生的其實已經考過學位已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對\n\n7\n00:02:20,839 --> 00:02:36,472\n學生人數本來變少沒錯所以主要是但是像今年喔今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此內部在猜測可能學生幣課金幣有一些影響因為通過考試以後已經做了很多學生幣去做消費\n\n8\n00:02:46,600 --> 00:03:08,320\n客家病嘛有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數\n\n9\n00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:13,302\n那我請問客委會現在有給比如說各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人做客語驗證跟議員報告齁新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有齁但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子客語通行與平和同行與平和也要每一年都有判判了以後我們有自表\n\n10\n00:03:34,713 --> 00:03:35,373\n那主委喔\n\n11\n00:03:54,949 --> 00:04:09,883\n如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方\n\n12\n00:04:10,424 --> 00:04:19,250\n你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求有多少人通過客語驗證嗎有因為高菸絲政府不可以這樣分成兩大類一大類就是高菸絲客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大堆那是非客家嘛你以客家縣市來講\n\n13\n00:04:30,077 --> 00:04:34,379\n欸客家縣市因為喔它的營求數客家營求數都一度它的公務營業還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度那你的民營業都會累積上去所以它會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事?呃它的評比到最後競賽它的名次就會往下降\n\n14\n00:04:56,872 --> 00:05:25,806\n台湾民事往下讲会影响你们给地方的辅助或什么的吗影响只有奖金而已我现在提醒主委的是现在因为你讲逐年的人数他其实有一点递减的状况那递减的状况其实表示一个事就是了解这个政策而且去参与去考试的人他其实都去过了嘛就是你不可能突然之间跑出很多人然后去参加嘛第二个是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建议不要跟\n\n15\n00:05:26,686 --> 00:05:44,462\n譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對我不希望有這種狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為向韓其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛潘音箏那哈比飛\n\n16\n00:05:53,490 --> 00:06:05,556\n你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說怎麼劃定核心區非核心區啊然後有多少人去我們不是說核心非核心那那個是教育部的意見嗎還是先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家客家提起跟非客家地區\n\n17\n00:06:15,372 --> 00:06:36,382\n因為他是講說被教育部盯上是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣推克宇都很好我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每年KPI一定要達標\n\n18\n00:06:37,102 --> 00:06:46,347\n而是你要有一定的彈性來做做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率啊我的我的課餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個\n\n19\n00:06:47,509 --> 00:07:16,953\nKPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正啦不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉啦那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課宇的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向\n\n20\n00:07:17,513 --> 00:07:21,417\n有目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法比如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程裡面\n\n21\n00:07:34,813 --> 00:07:53,368\n從學生學習的意念與理解學校文化與語言的意念增加去讀所以要做出一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種比方說曾經是教學\n\n22\n00:07:54,930 --> 00:08:03,619\n現在已經全部合法的環境因為生育的優異差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講可以吃所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動會點下去就像VN說的去思考無窮用的方法\n\n23\n00:08:17,933 --> 00:08:38,854\n這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望課委會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好感謝紐委員感謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4808\t7150\t謝主席 谷主委有請請谷主委谷主委早安今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少\n29605\t54879\t因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課與能力的\n55717\t81374\t基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課與保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年在課與認證大概都通過多少人 全國全國一萬五千人左右\n84625\t103194\t去年 應該說今年 今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年齁 都在考試還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五 前年前年多一點 再往前一年呢\n110034\t125355\t就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢有有有我們有資料像出種馬松也出了也有經驗的資料以你 以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還是減少減少其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼\n128140\t139549\t感受到居住人員已經在學生的其實已經考過學位 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對\n140839\t156472\t學生人數本來變少 沒錯所以主要是 但是像今年喔 今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此 內部在猜測可能學生幣 課金幣 有一些影響因為通過考試以後 已經做了很多學生幣去做消費\n166600\t188320\t客家病嘛 有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞 他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數\n189060\t193302\t那我請問 客委會現在有給 比如說各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人 做客語驗證跟議員報告齁 新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有齁 但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子 客語通行與平和同行與平和 也要每一年都有判判了以後 我們有自表\n214713\t215373\t那主委喔\n234949\t249883\t如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方\n250424\t259250\t你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求有多少人通過客語驗證嗎有 因為高菸絲政府不可以這樣分成兩大類一大類就是高菸絲客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大堆那是非客家嘛你以客家縣市來講\n270077\t274379\t欸 客家縣市 因為喔 它的營求數 客家營求數都一度它的公務營業 還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度那你的民營業都會累積上去所以 它會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府 地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事?呃 它的評比到最後競賽 它的名次就會往下降\n296872\t325806\t台湾民事往下讲会影响你们给地方的辅助或什么的吗影响只有奖金而已我现在提醒主委的是现在因为你讲逐年的人数他其实有一点递减的状况那递减的状况其实表示一个事就是了解这个政策而且去参与去考试的人他其实都去过了嘛就是你不可能突然之间跑出很多人然后去参加嘛第二个是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建议不要跟\n326686\t344462\t譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對 我不希望有這種狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好 鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為向韓其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛 潘音箏 那哈比飛\n353490\t365556\t你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說怎麼劃定核心區非核心區啊然後有多少人去我們不是說核心非核心那那個是教育部的意見嗎還是先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家客家提起跟非客家地區\n375372\t396382\t因為他是講說被教育部盯上 是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣 推克宇都很好 我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講 每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數 宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每年KPI一定要達標\n397102\t406347\t而是你要有一定的彈性來做做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率啊我的我的課餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個\n407509\t436953\tKPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正啦不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉啦那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課宇的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向\n437513\t441417\t有 目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法比如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程裡面\n454813\t473368\t從學生學習的意念與理解學校文化與語言的意念增加去讀所以要做出一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種 比方說曾經是教學\n474930\t483619\t現在已經全部合法的環境 因為生育的優異 差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講 可以吃 所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動 會點下去就像VN說的 去思考無窮用的方法\n497933\t518854\t這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望課委會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好感謝紐委員感謝\n","txt":"謝主席 谷主委有請請谷主委谷主委早安今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少\n因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課與能力的\n基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課與保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年在課與認證大概都通過多少人 全國全國一萬五千人左右\n去年 應該說今年 今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年齁 都在考試還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五 前年前年多一點 再往前一年呢\n就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢有有有我們有資料像出種馬松也出了也有經驗的資料以你 以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還是減少減少其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼\n感受到居住人員已經在學生的其實已經考過學位 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對\n學生人數本來變少 沒錯所以主要是 但是像今年喔 今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此 內部在猜測可能學生幣 課金幣 有一些影響因為通過考試以後 已經做了很多學生幣去做消費\n客家病嘛 有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞 他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數\n那我請問 客委會現在有給 比如說各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人 做客語驗證跟議員報告齁 新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有齁 但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子 客語通行與平和同行與平和 也要每一年都有判判了以後 我們有自表\n那主委喔\n如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方\n你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求有多少人通過客語驗證嗎有 因為高菸絲政府不可以這樣分成兩大類一大類就是高菸絲客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大堆那是非客家嘛你以客家縣市來講\n欸 客家縣市 因為喔 它的營求數 客家營求數都一度它的公務營業 還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度那你的民營業都會累積上去所以 它會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府 地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事?呃 它的評比到最後競賽 它的名次就會往下降\n台湾民事往下讲会影响你们给地方的辅助或什么的吗影响只有奖金而已我现在提醒主委的是现在因为你讲逐年的人数他其实有一点递减的状况那递减的状况其实表示一个事就是了解这个政策而且去参与去考试的人他其实都去过了嘛就是你不可能突然之间跑出很多人然后去参加嘛第二个是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建议不要跟\n譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對 我不希望有這種狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好 鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為向韓其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛 潘音箏 那哈比飛\n你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說怎麼劃定核心區非核心區啊然後有多少人去我們不是說核心非核心那那個是教育部的意見嗎還是先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家客家提起跟非客家地區\n因為他是講說被教育部盯上 是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣 推克宇都很好 我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講 每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數 宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每年KPI一定要達標\n而是你要有一定的彈性來做做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率啊我的我的課餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個\nKPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正啦不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉啦那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課宇的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向\n有 目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法比如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程裡面\n從學生學習的意念與理解學校文化與語言的意念增加去讀所以要做出一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種 比方說曾經是教學\n現在已經全部合法的環境 因為生育的優異 差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講 可以吃 所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動 會點下去就像VN說的 去思考無窮用的方法\n這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望課委會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好感謝紐委員感謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.808 --> 00:07.150\n謝主席谷主委有請請谷主委谷主委早安今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少\n\n00:29.605 --> 00:54.879\n因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課與能力的\n\n00:55.717 --> 01:21.374\n基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課與保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年在課與認證大概都通過多少人全國全國一萬五千人左右\n\n01:24.625 --> 01:43.194\n去年應該說今年今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年齁都在考試還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五前年前年多一點再往前一年呢\n\n01:50.034 --> 02:05.355\n就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢有有有我們有資料像出種馬松也出了也有經驗的資料以你以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還是減少減少其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼\n\n02:08.140 --> 02:19.549\n感受到居住人員已經在學生的其實已經考過學位已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對已經考過了對\n\n02:20.839 --> 02:36.472\n學生人數本來變少沒錯所以主要是但是像今年喔今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此內部在猜測可能學生幣課金幣有一些影響因為通過考試以後已經做了很多學生幣去做消費\n\n02:46.600 --> 03:08.320\n客家病嘛有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數\n\n03:09.060 --> 03:13.302\n那我請問客委會現在有給比如說各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人做客語驗證跟議員報告齁新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有齁但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子客語通行與平和同行與平和也要每一年都有判判了以後我們有自表\n\n03:34.713 --> 03:35.373\n那主委喔\n\n03:54.949 --> 04:09.883\n如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方\n\n04:10.424 --> 04:19.250\n你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求有多少人通過客語驗證嗎有因為高菸絲政府不可以這樣分成兩大類一大類就是高菸絲客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大堆那是非客家嘛你以客家縣市來講\n\n04:30.077 --> 04:34.379\n欸客家縣市因為喔它的營求數客家營求數都一度它的公務營業還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度那你的民營業都會累積上去所以它會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事?呃它的評比到最後競賽它的名次就會往下降\n\n04:56.872 --> 05:25.806\n台湾民事往下讲会影响你们给地方的辅助或什么的吗影响只有奖金而已我现在提醒主委的是现在因为你讲逐年的人数他其实有一点递减的状况那递减的状况其实表示一个事就是了解这个政策而且去参与去考试的人他其实都去过了嘛就是你不可能突然之间跑出很多人然后去参加嘛第二个是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建议不要跟\n\n05:26.686 --> 05:44.462\n譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對我不希望有這種狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為向韓其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛潘音箏那哈比飛\n\n05:53.490 --> 06:05.556\n你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說怎麼劃定核心區非核心區啊然後有多少人去我們不是說核心非核心那那個是教育部的意見嗎還是先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家客家提起跟非客家地區\n\n06:15.372 --> 06:36.382\n因為他是講說被教育部盯上是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣推克宇都很好我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每年KPI一定要達標\n\n06:37.102 --> 06:46.347\n而是你要有一定的彈性來做做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率啊我的我的課餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個\n\n06:47.509 --> 07:16.953\nKPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正啦不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉啦那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課宇的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向\n\n07:17.513 --> 07:21.417\n有目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法比如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程裡面\n\n07:34.813 --> 07:53.368\n從學生學習的意念與理解學校文化與語言的意念增加去讀所以要做出一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種比方說曾經是教學\n\n07:54.930 --> 08:03.619\n現在已經全部合法的環境因為生育的優異差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講可以吃所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動會點下去就像VN說的去思考無窮用的方法\n\n08:17.933 --> 08:38.854\n這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望課委會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好感謝紐委員感謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.808,"end":7.15,"text":"謝主席 谷主委有請請谷主委谷主委早安今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少"},{"start":29.605,"end":54.879,"text":"因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課與能力的"},{"start":55.717,"end":81.374,"text":"基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課與保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年在課與認證大概都通過多少人 全國全國一萬五千人左右"},{"start":84.625,"end":103.194,"text":"去年 應該說今年 今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年齁 都在考試還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五 前年前年多一點 再往前一年呢"},{"start":110.034,"end":125.355,"text":"就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢有有有我們有資料像出種馬松也出了也有經驗的資料以你 以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還是減少減少其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼"},{"start":128.14,"end":139.549,"text":"感受到居住人員已經在學生的其實已經考過學位 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對"},{"start":140.839,"end":156.472,"text":"學生人數本來變少 沒錯所以主要是 但是像今年喔 今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此 內部在猜測可能學生幣 課金幣 有一些影響因為通過考試以後 已經做了很多學生幣去做消費"},{"start":166.6,"end":188.32,"text":"客家病嘛 有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞 他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數"},{"start":189.06,"end":193.302,"text":"那我請問 客委會現在有給 比如說各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人 做客語驗證跟議員報告齁 新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有齁 但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子 客語通行與平和同行與平和 也要每一年都有判判了以後 我們有自表"},{"start":214.713,"end":215.373,"text":"那主委喔"},{"start":234.949,"end":249.883,"text":"如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方"},{"start":250.424,"end":259.25,"text":"你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求有多少人通過客語驗證嗎有 因為高菸絲政府不可以這樣分成兩大類一大類就是高菸絲客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大堆那是非客家嘛你以客家縣市來講"},{"start":270.077,"end":274.379,"text":"欸 客家縣市 因為喔 它的營求數 客家營求數都一度它的公務營業 還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度那你的民營業都會累積上去所以 它會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府 地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事?呃 它的評比到最後競賽 它的名次就會往下降"},{"start":296.872,"end":325.806,"text":"台湾民事往下讲会影响你们给地方的辅助或什么的吗影响只有奖金而已我现在提醒主委的是现在因为你讲逐年的人数他其实有一点递减的状况那递减的状况其实表示一个事就是了解这个政策而且去参与去考试的人他其实都去过了嘛就是你不可能突然之间跑出很多人然后去参加嘛第二个是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建议不要跟"},{"start":326.686,"end":344.462,"text":"譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對 我不希望有這種狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好 鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為向韓其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛 潘音箏 那哈比飛"},{"start":353.49,"end":365.556,"text":"你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說怎麼劃定核心區非核心區啊然後有多少人去我們不是說核心非核心那那個是教育部的意見嗎還是先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家客家提起跟非客家地區"},{"start":375.372,"end":396.382,"text":"因為他是講說被教育部盯上 是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣 推克宇都很好 我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講 每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數 宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每年KPI一定要達標"},{"start":397.102,"end":406.347,"text":"而是你要有一定的彈性來做做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率啊我的我的課餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個"},{"start":407.509,"end":436.953,"text":"KPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正啦不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉啦那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課宇的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向"},{"start":437.513,"end":441.417,"text":"有 目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法比如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程裡面"},{"start":454.813,"end":473.368,"text":"從學生學習的意念與理解學校文化與語言的意念增加去讀所以要做出一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種 比方說曾經是教學"},{"start":474.93,"end":483.619,"text":"現在已經全部合法的環境 因為生育的優異 差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講 可以吃 所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動 會點下去就像VN說的 去思考無窮用的方法"},{"start":497.933,"end":518.854,"text":"這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望課委會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好感謝紐委員感謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時19分）謝謝主席，古主委有請。"],["主席：古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：古主委早安。"],["古主任委員秀妃：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天我們繼續討論客語認證政策執行的一些地方上的狀況，本席10月10號在新聞上看到一個報告說客語認證的學生太少，因為已經到年底了，所以新竹縣政府就追蹤，希望新竹縣各級學校要加強報名，剛好又碰到連假，所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多工作負擔，有一些小小的衝突。我想藉這樣的一個事件跟客委會討論一下，因為現在大家講客語能力的基礎或初級認證，這其實是中央鼓勵大家，也鼓勵客語保存，希望大家響應的一個政策目標，所以有若干測驗，而現在看起來都好像是以考試為主。","但是我想請教主委的部分，每一年客語認證大概都通過多少人、全國？"],["古主任委員秀妃：全國一萬五千人左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年到目前為止通過多少人？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為今年到12月還在考試。"],["牛委員煦庭：還在考試。所以你們都是年底統計嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，年底統計。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以去年是一萬五，前年呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：就我所知，應該是前年會多一些。"],["牛委員煦庭：前年多一點，再往前一點呢？就是你有沒有整理出每一年的趨勢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，有資料。請處長馬上印出來，今年的資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：以主委的了解，每一年的人數是增加還是減少？"],["古主任委員秀妃：減少。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實是減少，對不對？那請問主委，減少的原因是什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：減少有幾個原因，一個是學生已經考過，合格的他就不會再來考。"],["牛委員煦庭：已經考過了，對。"],["古主任委員秀妃：外一方面，學生人數越來越少。"],["牛委員煦庭：學生人數越來越少，沒錯。就是……"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是像今年有增加很多，到目前為止，比去年的同期更多，猜測可能是因為客家幣的原因而有一些影響，通過考試以後可以拿客家幣去消費。"],["牛委員煦庭：客家幣，就是有所謂的一個政策誘因。","我們回到新竹的這個案例來講，按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情，因為鬧上了新聞，他們說因為新竹是客家大縣，所以教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣各國中小分成核心、非核心的，然後再開始檢討他的報名人數。那我請問，客委會現在有給比如各地方政府一個KPI嗎？每一年要通過多少人數、做客語認證？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，新聞上面所寫的，沒有這樣，我們沒有分什麼核心、非核心，也沒有。但有一個事情，就是我們有一個客語為通行語的評核，每一年都有辦，辦了之後，我們有指標，根據所有項目的指標統計分數以後做競賽，就可以拿到獎金，第1名會有1,000萬，第2名500萬，類似的遞減成300、200萬，所以各縣市政府很拚。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，如果你講的，等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是有？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有各類指標。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是有指標？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你們現在各個縣市，比如以桃園來講，或者是新竹都可以，就是客家人口比較多的地方，你有要求每一年地方政府要有多少人通過客語驗證嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，因為各縣市政府分兩大類，一大類叫做客家縣市，一大類的……"],["牛委員煦庭：是非客家的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：嗯，所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：依客家縣市來講。"],["古主任委員秀妃：客家縣市因為他的客家人口數多一點，他的公務人員還有學生通過認證的比例就會多一點，每一年都會累計上去，所以有指標。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以會有指標？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果縣市政府、地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事？"],["古主任委員秀妃：他的評比到最後競賽，他的名次就會往下降。"],["牛委員煦庭：他的名次會往下降，會影響你們給地方的補助或什麼的嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會影響他的獎金。"],["牛委員煦庭：影響只有獎金而已？"],["古主任委員秀妃：獎金而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在提醒主委，因為你講逐年的人數其實有一點遞減的狀況，遞減的狀況其實表示一件事，就是了解這個政策而且參與考試的人，他其實都去過了嘛！就是不可能突然之間跑出很多人去參加。第二個是少子化，那你用KPI，我是建議不要跟比如補助及預算掛鉤，你不要造成地方政府的壓力，我不希望有這樣的狀況。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有，只有影響獎金，因為……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是鼓勵嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：嗯。"],["牛委員煦庭：鼓勵性質本席覺得OK，你可以保留。","我要再回到新竹這個案子，到底是你們主導還是教育部主導？因為現在看起來是兩個單位，要承辦這些考試等等的，其實主管機關是在學校……"],["古主任委員秀妃：客委會辦認證。"],["牛委員煦庭：你辦認證。但我的意思是，劃定核心區、非核心區，然後有劃人數……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們沒有核心、非核心，剛才說的那個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那個是教育部的意見嗎？還是……"],["古主任委員秀妃：新竹縣自己說的，我們的分類是客家地區和非客家地區。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，因為他是講被教育部盯上了，這是新竹縣政府的回應。我希望是這樣，推客語都很好，我們也希望你用鼓勵的方式來處理，但是客觀上來講，每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆嘛！也就是因為人數、宣傳達到了極限，所以人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候，我倒不會像其他人一樣要求你每年的KPI一定要達標，而是你要有一定的彈性來做檢討。比如你要了解覆蓋率，客語認證通過的比例占客家人口的比例，大概達到什麼時候它可能會撞牆，那你KPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正。不要揠苗助長，比如大家好意希望他多學，但是他沒有辦法執行的時候，這個政策等於是空轉。","最後一點點時間我再請問，除了考試之外，客委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考，就是有沒有什麼別的方式可以來認證，或者是用比較生活化、比較簡單的方式來鼓勵客語的普及跟應用呢？你們有沒有做過其他的討論，面對這個KPI、考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下，有沒有新的方向？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，目前我們針對不一樣年齡層的學生、小朋友們，會有不一樣的作法，比如說國小、國中、高中有12年國教校訂課程，就來融入其彈性課程裡面，像這樣的效果很大，學生學習的意願跟理解客家文化及語言的意願增加很多，所以這個就是一種方法。對幼兒還有另外一種，比如說沉浸式教學，讓他們沉浸在一個全部客語的環境，因為幼兒差不多兩個禮拜就會聽、會講，速度很快，所以有各種方法，我們都會因為不一樣的推動而停下來像委員所說的去思考不一樣的方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：像這些不同的方式，還有從你們開始推客語認證考試在近5年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例，我希望客委會在會後提供一份相關資料讓我們來做追蹤、參考。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：還要說明你未來有沒有什麼其他的因應方式，因為我們要用更多元也更順暢的方式來做處理，這是本席今天質詢要提出的建議，請主委參考。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來我們請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}}