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\"start\": 378.066, \"end\": 378.166, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 378.166, \"end\": 378.186, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,231 --> 00:00:00,697\n調查局局長\n\n2\n00:00:11,977 --> 00:00:37,764\n好局長你好局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法有有那天新書發表會總長有邀請我去好那我想你那時候也有提到這本書你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以\n\n3\n00:00:38,464 --> 00:01:02,792\n可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高\n\n4\n00:01:04,413 --> 00:01:28,651\n我有整理一下你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊會不會回來就被抓不會\n\n5\n00:01:30,133 --> 00:01:46,525\n所以這個問題就在這裡嘛如果你說回來被抓不會但是那麼多人牽結不起訴判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好謝謝委員容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對我們反滲透法其實它要處罰的是受中共\n\n6\n00:01:47,345 --> 00:02:02,094\n只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證\n\n7\n00:02:04,716 --> 00:02:32,814\n委員可以看到這裡面有罪的其實都是揪團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條\n\n8\n00:02:34,995 --> 00:03:03,934\n反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好那這次大陸旅遊裡面有一些國台辦跟團員這個私下私下講兩岸一家親和平統一或者是我看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我找我們陳情我發現調查官就一直磨一直磨一直磨磨到他講出這一句話\n\n9\n00:03:05,075 --> 00:03:33,646\n講出這句話有啦他們私下有跟我們講說兩岸一家親他抓的這個點就要移送這些人我要跟你講就是今天這個東西是不應該的另外我再跟你講一下就是其實最近在你們在這本書有兩個最新的判決無罪判決沒有放進去就是有提到這兩個很重要的點我現在跟你說第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表會選所以呢\n\n10\n00:03:34,755 --> 00:04:00,222\n口號不是要求你要特定的投票所以函宣跟動員也無關這個沒有利益對價關係的其實根本就談不上反省策法請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準司法不能毫無標準不能如此空泛不能讓現在大量的遷解及判無罪大量的遷解及判無罪那我就會請教你那你們為什麼要發動這個偵查你要知道民眾遇到偵查是下的半死\n\n11\n00:04:00,822 --> 00:04:17,292\n那這些都是無辜的民眾你知道這些人被你們找去之後回家家人都怕得半死鄰居看到他都不敢講話這個是我們不應該的地方所以我再請教你這本書出來之後請問一下調查局有做什麼樣的教育作為\n\n12\n00:04:18,212 --> 00:04:39,010\n我們大概因為這本書剛出來那我們有發給我們的個外勤但不是每個人都有大概主要是負責國安業務的這些幹部大概要研閱一下比較能夠快速這本書主要是收錄反滲透法國家禁閉保護法還有一個因為時間關係因為時間關係我有去跟各個調查官都有打聽的\n\n13\n00:04:40,111 --> 00:04:50,662\n目前麻煩你們既然輸出來了你也說這個東西給第一線非常重要是請排入教育訓練好嗎是可以可以謝謝謝謝委員能夠把那個教育訓練的那個那個一些相關的期程或什麼樣的計畫給我們一下沒有問題讓我們了解不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉前的的一個大問題絕對不會亂抓人所以這個課程課綱失之對象\n\n14\n00:05:01,993 --> 00:05:30,370\n討論的內容要給我們一下因為我認為司法是講求事實講求證據不是臆測不是偵查人員主觀判斷而且制度一定要存在不能靠人的自律人的自律是沒有意義的報委員就您提到了這個那個揪團去大陸旅遊的這個有最新的兩個判決請委員可以參考一下就嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院的一個兩個最新的判決一個是判決有期徒刑四年一個是判決有期徒刑四年半沒有問題\n\n15\n00:05:31,190 --> 00:05:54,907\n一定很多有罪但是我現在告訴你有罪的他們罪有應得沒有問題我現在是說大量的牽結跟無罪你也讓這些民進黨的委員也倒霉啊因為很多人無端被抓他們就背原罪啊所以我的意思不是有罪有罪人反而罪有應得破壞國家安全我也痛恨但是不是破壞國家安全的人不要隨便抓我請教一下那個書的作者是誰\n\n16\n00:05:55,995 --> 00:06:18,186\n最高檢最高檢要排入教育訓練不要有圖利作者就好了不會啦這個是公家的都是檢察官檢察官河邊的當天出公告的時候他也有在我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的我出的嗎那你出的沒關係列入列入不會啦這個最高檢啦我們也邀請過委員到我們調查局來演講過你不然再上一本給我們看謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n231\t697\t調查局局長\n11977\t37764\t好 局長你好 局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法有有那天新書發表會總長有邀請我去好 那我想你那時候也有提到這本書你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以\n38464\t62792\t可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高\n64413\t88651\t我有整理一下 你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊會不會回來就被抓不會\n90133\t106525\t所以這個問題就在這裡嘛 如果你說回來被抓 不會但是那麼多人 牽結 不起訴 判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好 謝謝委員 容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對 我們反滲透法 其實它要處罰的是受中共\n107345\t122094\t只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證\n124716\t152814\t委員可以看到這裡面有罪的 其實都是揪團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦 這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條\n154995\t183934\t反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好 所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好 那這次大陸旅遊裡面有一些國台辦跟團員這個私下 私下講兩岸一家親和平統一或者是我看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我找我們陳情我發現調查官就一直磨一直磨一直磨磨到他講出這一句話\n185075\t213646\t講出這句話 有啦他們私下有跟我們講說兩岸一家親他抓的這個點就要移送這些人我要跟你講就是今天這個東西是不應該的另外我再跟你講一下就是其實最近在你們在這本書有兩個最新的判決無罪判決沒有放進去就是有提到這兩個很重要的點我現在跟你說 第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表會選所以呢\n214755\t240222\t口號不是要求你要特定的投票所以函宣跟動員也無關這個沒有利益對價關係的其實根本就談不上反省策法請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準司法不能毫無標準 不能如此空泛不能讓現在大量的遷解及判無罪大量的遷解及判無罪 那我就會請教你那你們為什麼要發動這個偵查你要知道民眾遇到偵查是下的半死\n240822\t257292\t那這些都是無辜的民眾你知道這些人被你們找去之後回家家人都怕得半死鄰居看到他都不敢講話這個是我們不應該的地方所以我再請教你這本書出來之後請問一下調查局有做什麼樣的教育作為\n258212\t279010\t我們大概因為這本書剛出來那我們有發給我們的個外勤但不是每個人都有大概主要是負責國安業務的這些幹部大概要研閱一下比較能夠快速這本書主要是收錄反滲透法國家禁閉保護法還有一個因為時間關係因為時間關係我有去跟各個調查官都有打聽的\n280111\t290662\t目前麻煩你們既然輸出來了你也說這個東西給第一線非常重要是請排入教育訓練好嗎是可以可以謝謝謝謝委員能夠把那個教育訓練的那個那個一些相關的期程或什麼樣的計畫給我們一下沒有問題讓我們了解不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉前的的一個大問題絕對不會亂抓人所以這個課程課綱失之對象\n301993\t330370\t討論的內容要給我們一下因為我認為司法是講求事實講求證據不是臆測不是偵查人員主觀判斷而且制度一定要存在不能靠人的自律人的自律是沒有意義的報委員就您提到了這個那個揪團去大陸旅遊的這個有最新的兩個判決請委員可以參考一下就嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院的一個兩個最新的判決一個是判決有期徒刑四年一個是判決有期徒刑四年半沒有問題\n331190\t354907\t一定很多有罪 但是我現在告訴你有罪的他們罪有應得沒有問題我現在是說大量的牽結跟無罪你也讓這些民進黨的委員也倒霉啊因為很多人無端被抓 他們就背原罪啊所以我的意思不是有罪 有罪人反而罪有應得破壞國家安全我也痛恨 但是不是破壞國家安全的人不要隨便抓我請教一下 那個書的作者是誰\n355995\t378186\t最高檢 最高檢要排入教育訓練不要有圖利作者就好了不會啦 這個是公家的都是檢察官檢察官河邊的當天出公告的時候他也有在我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的我出的嗎那你出的沒關係 列入列入不會啦 這個最高檢啦我們也邀請過委員到我們調查局來演講過你不然再上一本給我們看謝謝主席\n","txt":"調查局局長\n好 局長你好 局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法有有那天新書發表會總長有邀請我去好 那我想你那時候也有提到這本書你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以\n可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高\n我有整理一下 你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊會不會回來就被抓不會\n所以這個問題就在這裡嘛 如果你說回來被抓 不會但是那麼多人 牽結 不起訴 判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好 謝謝委員 容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對 我們反滲透法 其實它要處罰的是受中共\n只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證\n委員可以看到這裡面有罪的 其實都是揪團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦 這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條\n反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好 所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好 那這次大陸旅遊裡面有一些國台辦跟團員這個私下 私下講兩岸一家親和平統一或者是我看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我找我們陳情我發現調查官就一直磨一直磨一直磨磨到他講出這一句話\n講出這句話 有啦他們私下有跟我們講說兩岸一家親他抓的這個點就要移送這些人我要跟你講就是今天這個東西是不應該的另外我再跟你講一下就是其實最近在你們在這本書有兩個最新的判決無罪判決沒有放進去就是有提到這兩個很重要的點我現在跟你說 第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表會選所以呢\n口號不是要求你要特定的投票所以函宣跟動員也無關這個沒有利益對價關係的其實根本就談不上反省策法請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準司法不能毫無標準 不能如此空泛不能讓現在大量的遷解及判無罪大量的遷解及判無罪 那我就會請教你那你們為什麼要發動這個偵查你要知道民眾遇到偵查是下的半死\n那這些都是無辜的民眾你知道這些人被你們找去之後回家家人都怕得半死鄰居看到他都不敢講話這個是我們不應該的地方所以我再請教你這本書出來之後請問一下調查局有做什麼樣的教育作為\n我們大概因為這本書剛出來那我們有發給我們的個外勤但不是每個人都有大概主要是負責國安業務的這些幹部大概要研閱一下比較能夠快速這本書主要是收錄反滲透法國家禁閉保護法還有一個因為時間關係因為時間關係我有去跟各個調查官都有打聽的\n目前麻煩你們既然輸出來了你也說這個東西給第一線非常重要是請排入教育訓練好嗎是可以可以謝謝謝謝委員能夠把那個教育訓練的那個那個一些相關的期程或什麼樣的計畫給我們一下沒有問題讓我們了解不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉前的的一個大問題絕對不會亂抓人所以這個課程課綱失之對象\n討論的內容要給我們一下因為我認為司法是講求事實講求證據不是臆測不是偵查人員主觀判斷而且制度一定要存在不能靠人的自律人的自律是沒有意義的報委員就您提到了這個那個揪團去大陸旅遊的這個有最新的兩個判決請委員可以參考一下就嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院的一個兩個最新的判決一個是判決有期徒刑四年一個是判決有期徒刑四年半沒有問題\n一定很多有罪 但是我現在告訴你有罪的他們罪有應得沒有問題我現在是說大量的牽結跟無罪你也讓這些民進黨的委員也倒霉啊因為很多人無端被抓 他們就背原罪啊所以我的意思不是有罪 有罪人反而罪有應得破壞國家安全我也痛恨 但是不是破壞國家安全的人不要隨便抓我請教一下 那個書的作者是誰\n最高檢 最高檢要排入教育訓練不要有圖利作者就好了不會啦 這個是公家的都是檢察官檢察官河邊的當天出公告的時候他也有在我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的我出的嗎那你出的沒關係 列入列入不會啦 這個最高檢啦我們也邀請過委員到我們調查局來演講過你不然再上一本給我們看謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.231 --> 00:00.697\n調查局局長\n\n00:11.977 --> 00:37.764\n好局長你好局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法有有那天新書發表會總長有邀請我去好那我想你那時候也有提到這本書你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以\n\n00:38.464 --> 01:02.792\n可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高\n\n01:04.413 --> 01:28.651\n我有整理一下你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊會不會回來就被抓不會\n\n01:30.133 --> 01:46.525\n所以這個問題就在這裡嘛如果你說回來被抓不會但是那麼多人牽結不起訴判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好謝謝委員容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對我們反滲透法其實它要處罰的是受中共\n\n01:47.345 --> 02:02.094\n只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證\n\n02:04.716 --> 02:32.814\n委員可以看到這裡面有罪的其實都是揪團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條\n\n02:34.995 --> 03:03.934\n反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好那這次大陸旅遊裡面有一些國台辦跟團員這個私下私下講兩岸一家親和平統一或者是我看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我找我們陳情我發現調查官就一直磨一直磨一直磨磨到他講出這一句話\n\n03:05.075 --> 03:33.646\n講出這句話有啦他們私下有跟我們講說兩岸一家親他抓的這個點就要移送這些人我要跟你講就是今天這個東西是不應該的另外我再跟你講一下就是其實最近在你們在這本書有兩個最新的判決無罪判決沒有放進去就是有提到這兩個很重要的點我現在跟你說第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表會選所以呢\n\n03:34.755 --> 04:00.222\n口號不是要求你要特定的投票所以函宣跟動員也無關這個沒有利益對價關係的其實根本就談不上反省策法請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準司法不能毫無標準不能如此空泛不能讓現在大量的遷解及判無罪大量的遷解及判無罪那我就會請教你那你們為什麼要發動這個偵查你要知道民眾遇到偵查是下的半死\n\n04:00.822 --> 04:17.292\n那這些都是無辜的民眾你知道這些人被你們找去之後回家家人都怕得半死鄰居看到他都不敢講話這個是我們不應該的地方所以我再請教你這本書出來之後請問一下調查局有做什麼樣的教育作為\n\n04:18.212 --> 04:39.010\n我們大概因為這本書剛出來那我們有發給我們的個外勤但不是每個人都有大概主要是負責國安業務的這些幹部大概要研閱一下比較能夠快速這本書主要是收錄反滲透法國家禁閉保護法還有一個因為時間關係因為時間關係我有去跟各個調查官都有打聽的\n\n04:40.111 --> 04:50.662\n目前麻煩你們既然輸出來了你也說這個東西給第一線非常重要是請排入教育訓練好嗎是可以可以謝謝謝謝委員能夠把那個教育訓練的那個那個一些相關的期程或什麼樣的計畫給我們一下沒有問題讓我們了解不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉前的的一個大問題絕對不會亂抓人所以這個課程課綱失之對象\n\n05:01.993 --> 05:30.370\n討論的內容要給我們一下因為我認為司法是講求事實講求證據不是臆測不是偵查人員主觀判斷而且制度一定要存在不能靠人的自律人的自律是沒有意義的報委員就您提到了這個那個揪團去大陸旅遊的這個有最新的兩個判決請委員可以參考一下就嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院的一個兩個最新的判決一個是判決有期徒刑四年一個是判決有期徒刑四年半沒有問題\n\n05:31.190 --> 05:54.907\n一定很多有罪但是我現在告訴你有罪的他們罪有應得沒有問題我現在是說大量的牽結跟無罪你也讓這些民進黨的委員也倒霉啊因為很多人無端被抓他們就背原罪啊所以我的意思不是有罪有罪人反而罪有應得破壞國家安全我也痛恨但是不是破壞國家安全的人不要隨便抓我請教一下那個書的作者是誰\n\n05:55.995 --> 06:18.186\n最高檢最高檢要排入教育訓練不要有圖利作者就好了不會啦這個是公家的都是檢察官檢察官河邊的當天出公告的時候他也有在我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的我出的嗎那你出的沒關係列入列入不會啦這個最高檢啦我們也邀請過委員到我們調查局來演講過你不然再上一本給我們看謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.231,"end":0.697,"text":"調查局局長"},{"start":11.977,"end":37.764,"text":"好 局長你好 局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法有有那天新書發表會總長有邀請我去好 那我想你那時候也有提到這本書你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以"},{"start":38.464,"end":62.792,"text":"可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高"},{"start":64.413,"end":88.651,"text":"我有整理一下 你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊會不會回來就被抓不會"},{"start":90.133,"end":106.525,"text":"所以這個問題就在這裡嘛 如果你說回來被抓 不會但是那麼多人 牽結 不起訴 判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好 謝謝委員 容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對 我們反滲透法 其實它要處罰的是受中共"},{"start":107.345,"end":122.094,"text":"只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證"},{"start":124.716,"end":152.814,"text":"委員可以看到這裡面有罪的 其實都是揪團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦 這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條"},{"start":154.995,"end":183.934,"text":"反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好 所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好 那這次大陸旅遊裡面有一些國台辦跟團員這個私下 私下講兩岸一家親和平統一或者是我看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我找我們陳情我發現調查官就一直磨一直磨一直磨磨到他講出這一句話"},{"start":185.075,"end":213.646,"text":"講出這句話 有啦他們私下有跟我們講說兩岸一家親他抓的這個點就要移送這些人我要跟你講就是今天這個東西是不應該的另外我再跟你講一下就是其實最近在你們在這本書有兩個最新的判決無罪判決沒有放進去就是有提到這兩個很重要的點我現在跟你說 第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表會選所以呢"},{"start":214.755,"end":240.222,"text":"口號不是要求你要特定的投票所以函宣跟動員也無關這個沒有利益對價關係的其實根本就談不上反省策法請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準司法不能毫無標準 不能如此空泛不能讓現在大量的遷解及判無罪大量的遷解及判無罪 那我就會請教你那你們為什麼要發動這個偵查你要知道民眾遇到偵查是下的半死"},{"start":240.822,"end":257.292,"text":"那這些都是無辜的民眾你知道這些人被你們找去之後回家家人都怕得半死鄰居看到他都不敢講話這個是我們不應該的地方所以我再請教你這本書出來之後請問一下調查局有做什麼樣的教育作為"},{"start":258.212,"end":279.01,"text":"我們大概因為這本書剛出來那我們有發給我們的個外勤但不是每個人都有大概主要是負責國安業務的這些幹部大概要研閱一下比較能夠快速這本書主要是收錄反滲透法國家禁閉保護法還有一個因為時間關係因為時間關係我有去跟各個調查官都有打聽的"},{"start":280.111,"end":290.662,"text":"目前麻煩你們既然輸出來了你也說這個東西給第一線非常重要是請排入教育訓練好嗎是可以可以謝謝謝謝委員能夠把那個教育訓練的那個那個一些相關的期程或什麼樣的計畫給我們一下沒有問題讓我們了解不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉前的的一個大問題絕對不會亂抓人所以這個課程課綱失之對象"},{"start":301.993,"end":330.37,"text":"討論的內容要給我們一下因為我認為司法是講求事實講求證據不是臆測不是偵查人員主觀判斷而且制度一定要存在不能靠人的自律人的自律是沒有意義的報委員就您提到了這個那個揪團去大陸旅遊的這個有最新的兩個判決請委員可以參考一下就嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院的一個兩個最新的判決一個是判決有期徒刑四年一個是判決有期徒刑四年半沒有問題"},{"start":331.19,"end":354.907,"text":"一定很多有罪 但是我現在告訴你有罪的他們罪有應得沒有問題我現在是說大量的牽結跟無罪你也讓這些民進黨的委員也倒霉啊因為很多人無端被抓 他們就背原罪啊所以我的意思不是有罪 有罪人反而罪有應得破壞國家安全我也痛恨 但是不是破壞國家安全的人不要隨便抓我請教一下 那個書的作者是誰"},{"start":355.995,"end":378.186,"text":"最高檢 最高檢要排入教育訓練不要有圖利作者就好了不會啦 這個是公家的都是檢察官檢察官河邊的當天出公告的時候他也有在我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的我出的嗎那你出的沒關係 列入列入不會啦 這個最高檢啦我們也邀請過委員到我們調查局來演講過你不然再上一本給我們看謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時29分）麻煩請調查局局長。"],["主席：請調查局局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長你好。這本書你應該知道，因為你當天也有參加國安三法逐條評釋這本新書發表會。"],["陳局長白立：有，那一天新書發表會的時候，總長有邀請我去。"],["吳委員宗憲：你那時候也有提到這本書，你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具……"],["陳局長白立：工具書。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為國安不只是要保護人民，也要說清楚什麼是違法的，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：讓第一線的人員能夠遵循；但是我們看一下上次總統大選時，有很多里長帶團到大陸，回來之後就被大量搜索、約談、扣手機，甚至後來還有一些人被起訴，說他協助中共介入臺灣的選舉，甚至是違反反滲透法；但是我現在查了一下，判決無罪的比例非常非常高。我整理的結果，你們看這個內容，無罪的有12件，一審有罪的有4件，其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分。所以今天的主題很簡單，就是反滲透法怎麼用，尤其你身為調查局長，是調查機關的大家長，更應該能夠理解，否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊，會不會回來就被抓？"],["陳局長白立：不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以問題就在這裡，如果你說回來不會被抓，但是有那麼多人簽結不起訴、判無罪，這個不就是回來就被抓嗎？"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員，請委員容我來簡單的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：簡單說就好！"],["陳局長白立：其實反滲透法所要處罰的是受中共指示委託資助，以這個案例來講，要處罰的是揪團的人，而不是參團的人，所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾，他回來之後其實是以證人的身分，可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證；委員可以看到這裡面有罪的，其實都是揪團的人，沒有一個是因為參團的里民而被判刑的，沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，一個行為大量簽結不起訴、無罪，那你們的處理方式就有問題了，否則為什麼會立案調查？為什麼會移送？為什麼最後讓檢察官起訴判無罪？你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題！我就請教你一個非常簡單的問題，如果不違反選罷法，會不會成立反滲透法第七條？"],["陳局長白立：反滲透法第七條，它的底罪就是要違反選罷法。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以很簡單，反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚，必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那麼這次大陸旅遊裡面，有一些國台辦人員私下跟團員講兩岸一家親、和平統一，我也看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我們陳情，我發現調查官就一直磨，一直磨，磨到他講出這句話，就是：「有啦，他們私下有跟我們講兩岸一家親！」他抓了這個點，就要移送這些人。我要跟你講的就是今天這個東西是不應該的。另外，我再跟你講一下，就是在你們這本書裡面，沒有把兩個最新的無罪判決放進去。這有兩個很重要的點，我現在跟你說，第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表賄選，口號不是要求你要進行特定的投票，所以寒暄跟動員也無關，這個沒有利益對價關係的，其實根本就談不上反滲透法，請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準。"],["陳局長白立：這個我同意。"],["吳委員宗憲：司法不能毫無標準，不能如此空泛，不能出現這樣大量的簽結及判無罪；大量的簽結及判無罪，那我就要請教，你們為什麼要發動這個偵查？你要知道民眾遇到偵查嚇得半死，這些都是無辜的民眾。你知道這些人被你們找去之後，回到家裡，家人都怕得半死，鄰居看到他都不敢講話，這個是我們不應該的地方。我再請教你，這本書出來之後，請問調查局有什麼樣的教育作為？"],["陳局長白立：因為這本書剛出來，我們有發給我們各外勤單位，但不是每個人都有，主要是負責國安業務的幹部，大概要研閱一下，比較能夠快速，因為這本書主要是收錄反滲透法、國家機密保護法，還有國安法……"],["吳委員宗憲：其實我也有去跟各個調查官打聽了，既然書出來了，你也說這個東西對第一線非常重要，請排入教育訓練好嗎？"],["陳局長白立：可以，可以。謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後把那個教育訓練相關的一些習程或是計畫給我們一下，讓我們了解。"],["陳局長白立：沒有問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉前的一個大問題。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，絕對不會亂抓人。"],["吳委員宗憲：相關的課程課綱、師資對象、討論的內容要給我們一下，因為我認為司法講求事實、講求證據、不是臆測，不是偵查人員主觀判斷，而且制度一定要存在，不能靠人的自律，人的自律是沒有意義的。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，就您提到的這個揪團去大陸旅遊，嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院有兩個最新的判決，委員可以參考一下，一個是判決有期徒刑四年，一個是判決有期徒刑四年半。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有問題，一定很多有罪，但我現在告訴你，有罪的他們罪有應得、沒有問題，我現在是說大量的簽結跟無罪，你也讓這些民進黨的委員倒楣，因為很多人無端被抓，他們就揹原罪啊！所以我的意思是有罪的人，本來就罪有應得，破壞國家安全我也痛恨，但不是破壞國家安全的人，就不要隨便抓。"],["主席：我請教一下那本書的作者是誰？"],["吳委員宗憲：是最高檢。"],["陳局長白立：他們是合編的。"],["主席：因為要列入教育訓練，不要有圖利作者就好了。"],["吳委員宗憲：不會啦，這個是公家的。"],["陳局長白立：都是檢察官合編的。"],["吳委員宗憲：那一天出公告的時候，局長他也有在。"],["主席：我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的……"],["吳委員宗憲：我出的嗎？"],["主席：你出的沒關係，就列入。"],["吳委員宗憲：不會啦，這個是最高檢合編的。謝謝。"],["陳局長白立：我們也邀請過委員到調查局來演講。"],["吳委員宗憲：有。"],["主席：你們可以送一本給我們看一下。"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來進行詢答委員葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答皆已結束。","本日會議有黃仁委員、林憶君委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料回復者，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員另有約定期限者，剛才有幾位局長答應一週的，另約定期限者從其所定。以上如涉有機密部分，請確實依相關保密規定辦理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","陳永康","羅美玲","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00003"}}}