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\"高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 895.578, \"end\": 895.778, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"雄\", \"start\": 895.778, \"end\": 896.119, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 896.119, \"end\": 896.279, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 896.279, \"end\": 896.479, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 896.479, \"end\": 896.659, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 896.659, \"end\": 896.879, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 896.879, \"end\": 897.16, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 897.16, \"end\": 897.34, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 897.34, \"end\": 897.5, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 897.5, \"end\": 897.8, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 897.8, \"end\": 898.801, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 898.801, \"end\": 899.002, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 939.076, \"end\": 939.957, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 939.957, \"end\": 940.557, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 940.557, \"end\": 940.837, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 940.837, \"end\": 941.037, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 941.037, \"end\": 941.157, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 941.157, \"end\": 941.177, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 945.111, \"end\": 957.968, \"text\": \"他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 945.111, \"end\": 945.251, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 945.251, \"end\": 946.133, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 946.133, \"end\": 946.493, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 946.493, \"end\": 946.673, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 946.673, \"end\": 947.154, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 947.154, \"end\": 947.875, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 947.875, \"end\": 948.035, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 948.035, \"end\": 948.395, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 948.395, \"end\": 948.736, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 948.736, \"end\": 949.837, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 949.837, \"end\": 950.058, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 950.058, \"end\": 950.378, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 950.378, \"end\": 950.498, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 950.498, \"end\": 950.578, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"例\", 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{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 954.804, \"end\": 955.845, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"秒\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 955.845, \"end\": 956.225, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 956.225, \"end\": 956.426, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"燒\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 956.426, \"end\": 956.586, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 956.586, \"end\": 956.786, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 956.786, \"end\": 957.106, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 957.106, \"end\": 957.267, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"亡\", \"start\": 957.267, \"end\": 957.427, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 957.427, \"end\": 957.527, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 957.527, \"end\": 957.547, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 957.547, \"end\": 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\"你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1040.922, \"end\": 1041.102, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1041.102, \"end\": 1041.262, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 1041.262, \"end\": 1041.602, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1041.602, \"end\": 1042.763, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1042.763, \"end\": 1042.883, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1042.883, \"end\": 1043.043, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1043.043, \"end\": 1043.163, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1043.163, \"end\": 1043.343, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1043.343, \"end\": 1043.943, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1043.943, \"end\": 1044.463, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1044.463, \"end\": 1044.743, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 1044.743, \"end\": 1044.903, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1044.903, \"end\": 1045.504, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 1045.504, \"end\": 1045.824, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1045.824, \"end\": 1046.064, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1046.064, \"end\": 1046.344, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1046.344, \"end\": 1047.524, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1047.524, \"end\": 1047.684, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 1047.684, \"end\": 1048.445, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 1048.445, \"end\": 1049.445, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1049.445, \"end\": 1049.745, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 1049.745, \"end\": 1049.885, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1049.885, 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{\"start\": 1060.749, \"end\": 1088.266, \"text\": \"所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1060.749, \"end\": 1060.869, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1060.869, \"end\": 1060.949, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 1060.949, \"end\": 1061.189, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 1061.189, \"end\": 1061.309, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1061.309, \"end\": 1061.51, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1061.51, \"end\": 1061.93, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1061.93, \"end\": 1062.27, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 1062.27, \"end\": 1062.39, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 1062.39, \"end\": 1062.67, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 1062.67, \"end\": 1063.711, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, 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\"理\", \"start\": 1085.685, \"end\": 1085.765, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1085.765, \"end\": 1085.925, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 1085.925, \"end\": 1086.305, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1086.305, \"end\": 1086.465, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 1086.465, \"end\": 1086.585, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1086.585, \"end\": 1086.745, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1086.745, \"end\": 1086.845, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1086.845, \"end\": 1086.865, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1086.865, \"end\": 1087.346, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1087.346, \"end\": 1087.526, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 1087.526, \"end\": 1087.626, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1087.626, \"end\": 1087.746, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": 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00:00:58,486\n主管最高主管他涉及霸凌那他們子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組也有外聘的委員就照我們勞動部的規定然後有一個調查報告出來了那也確認了這個霸凌了那我今天要請問你\n\n3\n00:00:59,887 --> 00:01:24,948\n如果這樣的霸凌案要處分就送到母公司母公司以這個董事會的決議對於調查報告認為這個程序有瑕疵母公司要自己要再去調查然後或者是要修正子公司的這個調查報告或者是直接就\n\n4\n00:01:26,990 --> 00:01:54,427\n決議不予處分你覺得在現在的修法的機制或現行的法律架構裡面有這樣的一個爭議的解決的機制嗎跟委員說明的確就是在因為現行的它其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這些事情所以因為它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚所以可能會產生像這樣的事情但我們現在要修法了我現在還是在問你同樣的事情在修法過後有解決的機制嗎\n\n5\n00:02:00,621 --> 00:02:20,342\n子公司是不是一個獨立的法人他獨立的法人調查報告出來他的母公司也是一個獨立的法人可是他們母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告介入子公司的調查報告\n\n6\n00:02:21,343 --> 00:02:46,296\n然後這個介入人事的懲處這樣子是可以的嗎有解決的機制的嗎就現在我們在設計這個機制來說我們這個子公司我們就把當作是一個獨立的法人他的調查他只要他的程序完備做出來的結果就應該就按照這個結果來處理讓母公司可以以董事會的決議否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎\n\n7\n00:02:49,076 --> 00:03:14,521\n那母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎我們沒有瑕疵是地方政府來的瑕疵是如果程序上有瑕疵是要由勞工去用39條然後來請地方主管機關來認定不是母公司現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人主管還有母公司認為有瑕疵\n\n8\n00:03:15,541 --> 00:03:43,296\n那因為他已經調查報告了然後這個勞工受僱者也確認這個調查報告的調查是事實他認為他被霸凌了調查報告也是這樣子了那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位來或者是勞檢的主管機關來去做認定把這一個調查報告擱置了那要怎麼處理有什麼解決機制\n\n9\n00:03:47,720 --> 00:04:02,952\n我在講的是雖然是我從媒體上看的報導但我覺得這樣的可能性存不存在存在啊母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候母公司不同意\n\n10\n00:04:04,844 --> 00:04:24,618\n這個事情在你在修法也都沒有談到這個事情今天沒有辦法解決沒關係你們回去好好思考那我今天不是要談這個我其實今天大家都談很多了那我要提醒你另外一個議題就是隨著全球這個電動車還有儲能市場的這個產業的發展那鋰電池製造業正面臨的產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重的挑戰\n\n11\n00:04:34,684 --> 00:04:59,659\n那今年的7月14号高雄的小港三元能源锂电池工厂发生火灾爆炸而且很严重的造成了15个人的受伤其中有12名员工3名消防员而三元能源科技公司他自己也自主调查初步判断事故是指向多重系统的异常和事件叠加的情况\n\n12\n00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:15,430\n包括不明的高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動以及後續的電力中斷導致廠區的消防系統失效\n\n13\n00:05:16,351 --> 00:05:43,131\n那我們現在跟你討論這個是因為以三元能源科技高雄廠這個火災爆炸事件為例我要請教你這個鋰電池工廠鋰電池製造他有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第26條規定所謂的需要做出這個製程安全評估報告5年要做一次然後要有這個\n\n14\n00:05:46,614 --> 00:06:06,210\n風險比較高風險的風險評估的責任那他有在這個甲乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的這個優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制的範圍裡面然後列管嗎\n\n15\n00:06:07,674 --> 00:06:27,941\n根本說沒有就三元能源這個案例來說目前是沒有被放進這個納管的範圍但是我們接下來因為今天我們談的是治安法的修法但我們預計應該也許在11月或12月我們會提出一個更完整的減災計劃但願如此為什麼這麼說呢\n\n16\n00:06:30,522 --> 00:06:48,676\n因为你们职安署在我们办公室询问这个事情的时候你们职安署是这样回复我们的他说锂电池目前并非甲乙丙类因为制造过程中没有管制物品锂电池之所以容易爆炸是在使用阶段\n\n17\n00:06:49,637 --> 00:07:03,704\n過度充電過度放電或者是外部損傷以及電解液儲存不當那鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險的而且是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險\n\n18\n00:07:04,824 --> 00:07:19,291\n你們治安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我們辦公室那跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的在這種狀況裡面我們看到他們公司自主的這個報告\n\n19\n00:07:20,672 --> 00:07:36,417\n起火云就写到人为操作或机械异常导致瑕疵半成品进入化成半成品常温静置区酿灾所以他们认为可能火灾就是生产流程中自动外观检查制成\n\n20\n00:07:37,097 --> 00:07:59,849\n因故轉成人工目視本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視那因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出第二個於自動化流程機械設備因故發生異常造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出\n\n21\n00:08:00,709 --> 00:08:16,048\n所以這種狀況裡面請問部長你們公文回覆林淑芬辦公室的都在講製程的風險太低了然後呢都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險才是爆炸的高風險使用過程\n\n22\n00:08:16,949 --> 00:08:32,527\n那剛剛講三元三元你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看他們自己的報告這個是使用階段還是製造製成的階段\n\n23\n00:08:34,249 --> 00:08:48,757\n就工廠來說當然是製程的階段那你們說低風險不納管跟委員報告其實我們本來就有其實這幾個月我們一直在跟治安署在檢討我們過去高風險物質的納管的範圍太小了你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室你們沒有要納管\n\n24\n00:08:54,400 --> 00:09:20,421\n剛剛才回覆白紙寫黑字我們來把這些相關的案例現在立委沒有質詢的話沒有這個案子的話我想你們還是不會納官而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的理工池電廠都要比照緊急應變措施這個技術指引規定還要不是只有申報五年報一次的製程評估報告還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練\n\n25\n00:09:23,462 --> 00:09:41,249\n針對現場作業的人員的應變能力安全訓練也要建立在定期的演練的制度特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的場區更應該要落實人員訓練和演練的這個訓練確保在事故發生的時候能夠及時應變為什麼我們這麼講\n\n26\n00:09:43,630 --> 00:10:04,906\n因為當天的確是很好運起火的當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙如果沒有及時發現後果不堪設想而且三原是台泥集團向下的它是最高規的安全標準在台灣而言它有三道消防和監測系統\n\n27\n00:10:06,767 --> 00:10:26,615\n在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器還有17000多顆的煙霧感測器而且採取多階段的防災應變設計包含導入日本的片鋼製片所的整合化整合式的化成系統\n\n28\n00:10:27,475 --> 00:10:41,796\n市值高達30億元的監測安全系統但是在這一次的爆炸當中這個30億元的所有的系統的運作都沒有達成預期的效果\n\n29\n00:10:42,877 --> 00:10:57,453\n導致火勢迅速蔓延然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備所以這麼有能力的財團大公司這麼高度專業的資本規模這麼好的子公司\n\n30\n00:10:58,194 --> 00:11:13,847\n都在製程中發現爆炸引發大火火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅而且還要持續灌水這麼多天而且有15個人受傷可見這個產業他的潛在風險這麼高如果如果不是台擬集團\n\n31\n00:11:19,091 --> 00:11:37,905\n是規模比較小的管理資源更有限的遇到這種狀況我肯定講他的傷亡他的環境衝擊會更嚴重對社區周遭社區的居民健康的威脅更是難以想像所以你們如果沒有我在這裡講\n\n32\n00:11:38,686 --> 00:11:50,530\n你們的治安署白紙寫黑字還在講離電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險所有的風險高風險都是在使用階段這種話還講得出來我今天講\n\n33\n00:11:54,673 --> 00:12:17,003\n鋰電池的製造的結構性挑戰他當然產能升級的同時要做好風險看管而且這是未來產業不是只有鋰電池而且還有所謂的除能除能產業除能產業正要大大的發展了所以這種狀況裡面這種事故如果一發生他是\n\n34\n00:12:17,883 --> 00:12:42,151\n還多重保護失效的結果在這種持續要優化保護層的風險管理的時候包括要防爆管理要完善VOC氣體偵測排風系統的整合配置異常狀況下的自動連鎖停機或啟動通風壓制的措施所以它的火災有三大風險難預測難撲滅毒性高\n\n35\n00:12:48,284 --> 00:13:12,399\n鋰電池工廠除能工廠不要忘了2月今年在深坑鋰電池這個倉庫就爆炸了影響有多大不要再講到說美國的一個除能工廠在今年1月還是什麼時候他他爆炸是疏散1500人然後呢\n\n36\n00:13:13,413 --> 00:13:32,127\n在這種狀況裡面鋰電池熱失控有三種成因內部材料缺陷外部當然受到穿刺擠壓高溫環境或是使用的過程操作不當所以它並不是只有在使用階段它在製成的階段風險就非常高\n\n37\n00:13:33,393 --> 00:13:45,514\n部長你有沒有聽過去年南韓京畿道鋰亞電池工廠因為存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池你知道他們多少人死傷嗎\n\n38\n00:13:48,006 --> 00:14:15,697\n我有關注這個事件但是我沒有記得他我來舉這個例子跟你分享提醒你在一塊裡電池起火以後一個然後就急劇的擴散引發連續的爆炸當時有67個人在產線上然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸42秒就吞沒了工廠最後23人死亡\n\n39\n00:14:17,717 --> 00:14:44,170\n8個受傷這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一在去年才剛發生而你們的治安署還告訴我們說製程風險很低你知道當時的南韓水源地方法院在今年9月23號依照違反重大災害處罰法派遣法勤勞積存法判處公司的負責人\n\n40\n00:14:45,250 --> 00:14:54,229\n很重15年的有期徒刑而我們今天在講三元高雄的鋰電廠這個爆炸案以後\n\n41\n00:14:55,578 --> 00:15:16,179\n高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了\n\n42\n00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:41,177\n甚至很多民眾連他自己他自己的風險都不知道他隔壁做電池的有沒有風險他也不知道沒有災害的意思所以在這種狀況裡面勞動部有沒有必要跟相關的部會整合治安法災防法獨管法我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利\n\n43\n00:15:45,111 --> 00:15:57,968\n他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前\n\n44\n00:16:03,214 --> 00:16:19,421\n那所以接下來那在我們的這個擴大的強化的減災計畫裡面其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質我知道但是如果今天沒有立委質詢你們是不是就沒有納管\n\n45\n00:16:20,441 --> 00:16:45,761\n當然我覺得在回覆上面我覺得我們可以做一些檢討那其實只要是高風險的部分該納管的納管尤其這是一個大的公司那這也是包括電池產業其實也是大家非常關注的產業整個產業不是只有這一個公司整個產業包括除能產業台灣也剛起步要大大的發展這裡面我們知道你知道鋰電池的風險製造的風險我非常清楚因為我對能源產業很清楚\n\n46\n00:16:46,301 --> 00:17:01,846\n所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險的管理讓我再提醒你燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫本類當火警發生的時候對周遭的空氣氟化氫本類這是多麼可怕的事情\n\n47\n00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:18,760\n難怪會有20幾個人馬上死亡所以我們今天在講說你們現在不要講說納管納到高風險的管制裡面現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或者是除能產業的設備\n\n48\n00:17:20,922 --> 00:17:39,689\n你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零\n\n49\n00:17:40,749 --> 00:18:08,266\n所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來\n\n50\n00:18:09,767 --> 00:18:17,272\n那用這個方式其實來做一個更根本性的安全安全管理系統我們現在所定在可能相當規模相當資本以上規模以下你難道不需要製程安全的規範或是指引嗎\n\n51\n00:18:25,777 --> 00:18:47,261\n當然當然但我說就像剛剛以三元或者是像台尼這樣子的規模的企業來說我覺得他們其實應該是更可是台灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些規範安全規範可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範你們可不可以一併檢討當然當然那大概要多久三個月可以嗎三個月好OK謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7366\t10587\t好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長來有請部長林委員好部長今天的這個修法我是曾經在這個新聞媒體上看到一個一個報導這樣子的就是說一個子公司他的等於是\n38464\t58486\t主管最高主管他涉及霸凌那他們子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組也有外聘的委員就照我們勞動部的規定然後有一個調查報告出來了那也確認了這個霸凌了那我今天要請問你\n59887\t84948\t如果這樣的霸凌案要處分就送到母公司母公司以這個董事會的決議對於調查報告認為這個程序有瑕疵母公司要自己要再去調查然後或者是要修正子公司的這個調查報告或者是直接就\n86990\t114427\t決議不予處分你覺得在現在的修法的機制或現行的法律架構裡面有這樣的一個爭議的解決的機制嗎跟委員說明的確就是在因為現行的它其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這些事情所以因為它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚所以可能會產生像這樣的事情但我們現在要修法了我現在還是在問你同樣的事情在修法過後有解決的機制嗎\n120621\t140342\t子公司是不是一個獨立的法人他獨立的法人調查報告出來他的母公司也是一個獨立的法人可是他們母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告介入子公司的調查報告\n141343\t166296\t然後這個介入人事的懲處這樣子是可以的嗎有解決的機制的嗎就現在我們在設計這個機制來說我們這個子公司我們就把當作是一個獨立的法人他的調查他只要他的程序完備做出來的結果就應該就按照這個結果來處理讓母公司可以以董事會的決議否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎\n169076\t194521\t那母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎我們沒有瑕疵是地方政府來的瑕疵是如果程序上有瑕疵是要由勞工去用39條然後來請地方主管機關來認定不是母公司現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人主管還有母公司認為有瑕疵\n195541\t223296\t那因為他已經調查報告了然後這個勞工受僱者也確認這個調查報告的調查是事實他認為他被霸凌了調查報告也是這樣子了那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位來或者是勞檢的主管機關來去做認定把這一個調查報告擱置了那要怎麼處理有什麼解決機制\n227720\t242952\t我在講的是雖然是我從媒體上看的報導但我覺得這樣的可能性存不存在存在啊母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候母公司不同意\n244844\t264618\t這個事情在你在修法也都沒有談到這個事情今天沒有辦法解決沒關係你們回去好好思考那我今天不是要談這個我其實今天大家都談很多了那我要提醒你另外一個議題就是隨著全球這個電動車還有儲能市場的這個產業的發展那鋰電池製造業正面臨的產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重的挑戰\n274684\t299659\t那今年的7月14号高雄的小港三元能源锂电池工厂发生火灾爆炸而且很严重的造成了15个人的受伤其中有12名员工3名消防员而三元能源科技公司他自己也自主调查初步判断事故是指向多重系统的异常和事件叠加的情况\n300399\t315430\t包括不明的高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動以及後續的電力中斷導致廠區的消防系統失效\n316351\t343131\t那我們現在跟你討論這個是因為以三元能源科技高雄廠這個火災爆炸事件為例我要請教你這個鋰電池工廠鋰電池製造他有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第26條規定所謂的需要做出這個製程安全評估報告5年要做一次然後要有這個\n346614\t366210\t風險比較高風險的風險評估的責任那他有在這個甲乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的這個優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制的範圍裡面然後列管嗎\n367674\t387941\t根本說沒有就三元能源這個案例來說目前是沒有被放進這個納管的範圍但是我們接下來因為今天我們談的是治安法的修法但我們預計應該也許在11月或12月我們會提出一個更完整的減災計劃但願如此為什麼這麼說呢\n390522\t408676\t因为你们职安署在我们办公室询问这个事情的时候你们职安署是这样回复我们的他说锂电池目前并非甲乙丙类因为制造过程中没有管制物品锂电池之所以容易爆炸是在使用阶段\n409637\t423704\t過度充電 過度放電或者是外部損傷以及電解液儲存不當那鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險的而且是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險\n424824\t439291\t你們治安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我們辦公室那跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的在這種狀況裡面我們看到他們公司自主的這個報告\n440672\t456417\t起火云就写到人为操作或机械异常导致瑕疵半成品进入化成半成品常温静置区酿灾所以他们认为可能火灾就是生产流程中自动外观检查制成\n457097\t479849\t因故轉成人工目視本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視那因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出第二個於自動化流程機械設備因故發生異常造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出\n480709\t496048\t所以這種狀況裡面請問部長你們公文回覆林淑芬辦公室的都在講製程的風險太低了然後呢都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險才是爆炸的高風險使用過程\n496949\t512527\t那剛剛講三元三元你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看他們自己的報告這個是使用階段還是製造製成的階段\n514249\t528757\t就工廠來說當然是製程的階段那你們說低風險不納管跟委員報告其實我們本來就有其實這幾個月我們一直在跟治安署在檢討我們過去高風險物質的納管的範圍太小了你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室你們沒有要納管\n534400\t560421\t剛剛才回覆白紙寫黑字我們來把這些相關的案例現在立委沒有質詢的話沒有這個案子的話我想你們還是不會納官而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的理工池電廠都要比照緊急應變措施這個技術指引規定還要不是只有申報五年報一次的製程評估報告還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練\n563462\t581249\t針對現場作業的人員的應變能力安全訓練也要建立在定期的演練的制度特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的場區更應該要落實人員訓練和演練的這個訓練確保在事故發生的時候能夠及時應變為什麼我們這麼講\n583630\t604906\t因為當天的確是很好運 起火的當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙如果沒有及時發現 後果不堪設想而且三原是台泥集團向下的它是最高規的安全標準 在台灣而言它有三道消防和監測系統\n606767\t626615\t在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器還有17000多顆的煙霧感測器而且採取多階段的防災應變設計包含導入日本的片鋼製片所的整合化整合式的化成系統\n627475\t641796\t市值高達30億元的監測安全系統但是在這一次的爆炸當中這個30億元的所有的系統的運作都沒有達成預期的效果\n642877\t657453\t導致火勢迅速蔓延然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備所以這麼有能力的財團大公司這麼高度專業的資本規模這麼好的子公司\n658194\t673847\t都在製程中發現爆炸引發大火火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅而且還要持續灌水這麼多天而且有15個人受傷可見這個產業他的潛在風險這麼高如果如果不是台擬集團\n679091\t697905\t是規模比較小的管理資源更有限的遇到這種狀況我肯定講他的傷亡他的環境衝擊會更嚴重對社區周遭社區的居民健康的威脅更是難以想像所以你們如果沒有我在這裡講\n698686\t710530\t你們的治安署白紙寫黑字還在講離電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險所有的風險高風險都是在使用階段這種話還講得出來我今天講\n714673\t737003\t鋰電池的製造的結構性挑戰他當然產能升級的同時要做好風險看管而且這是未來產業不是只有鋰電池而且還有所謂的除能除能產業除能產業正要大大的發展了所以這種狀況裡面這種事故如果一發生他是\n737883\t762151\t還多重保護失效的結果在這種持續要優化保護層的風險管理的時候包括要防爆管理要完善VOC氣體偵測 排風系統的整合配置異常狀況下的自動連鎖停機或啟動通風壓制的措施所以它的火災有三大風險難預測 難撲滅 毒性高\n768284\t792399\t鋰電池工廠除能工廠不要忘了2月今年在深坑鋰電池這個倉庫就爆炸了影響有多大不要再講到說美國的一個除能工廠在今年1月還是什麼時候他他爆炸是疏散1500人然後呢\n793413\t812127\t在這種狀況裡面鋰電池熱失控有三種成因內部材料缺陷外部當然受到穿刺擠壓高溫環境或是使用的過程操作不當所以它並不是只有在使用階段它在製成的階段風險就非常高\n813393\t825514\t部長你有沒有聽過去年南韓京畿道鋰亞電池工廠因為存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池你知道他們多少人死傷嗎\n828006\t855697\t我有關注這個事件但是我沒有記得他我來舉這個例子跟你分享提醒你在一塊裡電池起火以後一個然後就急劇的擴散引發連續的爆炸當時有67個人在產線上然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸42秒就吞沒了工廠最後23人死亡\n857717\t884170\t8個受傷這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一在去年才剛發生而你們的治安署還告訴我們說製程風險很低你知道當時的南韓水源地方法院在今年9月23號依照違反重大災害處罰法派遣法勤勞積存法判處公司的負責人\n885250\t894229\t很重15年的有期徒刑而我們今天在講三元高雄的鋰電廠這個爆炸案以後\n895578\t916179\t高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了\n917080\t941177\t甚至很多民眾連他自己他自己的風險都不知道他隔壁做電池的有沒有風險他也不知道沒有災害的意思所以在這種狀況裡面勞動部有沒有必要跟相關的部會整合治安法 災防法 獨管法我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利\n945111\t957968\t他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前\n963214\t979421\t那所以接下來那在我們的這個擴大的強化的減災計畫裡面其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質我知道但是如果今天沒有立委質詢你們是不是就沒有納管\n980441\t1005761\t當然我覺得在回覆上面我覺得我們可以做一些檢討那其實只要是高風險的部分該納管的納管尤其這是一個大的公司那這也是包括電池產業其實也是大家非常關注的產業整個產業不是只有這一個公司整個產業包括除能產業台灣也剛起步要大大的發展這裡面我們知道你知道鋰電池的風險製造的風險我非常清楚因為我對能源產業很清楚\n1006301\t1021846\t所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險的管理讓我再提醒你燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫本類當火警發生的時候對周遭的空氣氟化氫本類這是多麼可怕的事情\n1023829\t1038760\t難怪會有20幾個人馬上死亡所以我們今天在講說你們現在不要講說納管納到高風險的管制裡面現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或者是除能產業的設備\n1040922\t1059689\t你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零\n1060749\t1088266\t所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來\n1089767\t1097272\t那用這個方式其實來做一個更根本性的安全安全管理系統我們現在所定在可能相當規模相當資本以上規模以下你難道不需要製程安全的規範或是指引嗎\n1105777\t1127261\t當然當然但我說就像剛剛以三元或者是像台尼這樣子的規模的企業來說我覺得他們其實應該是更可是台灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些規範安全規範可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範你們可不可以一併檢討當然當然那大概要多久三個月可以嗎三個月好OK謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長來有請部長林委員好部長今天的這個修法我是曾經在這個新聞媒體上看到一個一個報導這樣子的就是說一個子公司他的等於是\n主管最高主管他涉及霸凌那他們子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組也有外聘的委員就照我們勞動部的規定然後有一個調查報告出來了那也確認了這個霸凌了那我今天要請問你\n如果這樣的霸凌案要處分就送到母公司母公司以這個董事會的決議對於調查報告認為這個程序有瑕疵母公司要自己要再去調查然後或者是要修正子公司的這個調查報告或者是直接就\n決議不予處分你覺得在現在的修法的機制或現行的法律架構裡面有這樣的一個爭議的解決的機制嗎跟委員說明的確就是在因為現行的它其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這些事情所以因為它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚所以可能會產生像這樣的事情但我們現在要修法了我現在還是在問你同樣的事情在修法過後有解決的機制嗎\n子公司是不是一個獨立的法人他獨立的法人調查報告出來他的母公司也是一個獨立的法人可是他們母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告介入子公司的調查報告\n然後這個介入人事的懲處這樣子是可以的嗎有解決的機制的嗎就現在我們在設計這個機制來說我們這個子公司我們就把當作是一個獨立的法人他的調查他只要他的程序完備做出來的結果就應該就按照這個結果來處理讓母公司可以以董事會的決議否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎\n那母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎我們沒有瑕疵是地方政府來的瑕疵是如果程序上有瑕疵是要由勞工去用39條然後來請地方主管機關來認定不是母公司現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人主管還有母公司認為有瑕疵\n那因為他已經調查報告了然後這個勞工受僱者也確認這個調查報告的調查是事實他認為他被霸凌了調查報告也是這樣子了那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位來或者是勞檢的主管機關來去做認定把這一個調查報告擱置了那要怎麼處理有什麼解決機制\n我在講的是雖然是我從媒體上看的報導但我覺得這樣的可能性存不存在存在啊母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候母公司不同意\n這個事情在你在修法也都沒有談到這個事情今天沒有辦法解決沒關係你們回去好好思考那我今天不是要談這個我其實今天大家都談很多了那我要提醒你另外一個議題就是隨著全球這個電動車還有儲能市場的這個產業的發展那鋰電池製造業正面臨的產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重的挑戰\n那今年的7月14号高雄的小港三元能源锂电池工厂发生火灾爆炸而且很严重的造成了15个人的受伤其中有12名员工3名消防员而三元能源科技公司他自己也自主调查初步判断事故是指向多重系统的异常和事件叠加的情况\n包括不明的高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動以及後續的電力中斷導致廠區的消防系統失效\n那我們現在跟你討論這個是因為以三元能源科技高雄廠這個火災爆炸事件為例我要請教你這個鋰電池工廠鋰電池製造他有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第26條規定所謂的需要做出這個製程安全評估報告5年要做一次然後要有這個\n風險比較高風險的風險評估的責任那他有在這個甲乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的這個優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制的範圍裡面然後列管嗎\n根本說沒有就三元能源這個案例來說目前是沒有被放進這個納管的範圍但是我們接下來因為今天我們談的是治安法的修法但我們預計應該也許在11月或12月我們會提出一個更完整的減災計劃但願如此為什麼這麼說呢\n因为你们职安署在我们办公室询问这个事情的时候你们职安署是这样回复我们的他说锂电池目前并非甲乙丙类因为制造过程中没有管制物品锂电池之所以容易爆炸是在使用阶段\n過度充電 過度放電或者是外部損傷以及電解液儲存不當那鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險的而且是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險\n你們治安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我們辦公室那跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的在這種狀況裡面我們看到他們公司自主的這個報告\n起火云就写到人为操作或机械异常导致瑕疵半成品进入化成半成品常温静置区酿灾所以他们认为可能火灾就是生产流程中自动外观检查制成\n因故轉成人工目視本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視那因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出第二個於自動化流程機械設備因故發生異常造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出\n所以這種狀況裡面請問部長你們公文回覆林淑芬辦公室的都在講製程的風險太低了然後呢都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險才是爆炸的高風險使用過程\n那剛剛講三元三元你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看他們自己的報告這個是使用階段還是製造製成的階段\n就工廠來說當然是製程的階段那你們說低風險不納管跟委員報告其實我們本來就有其實這幾個月我們一直在跟治安署在檢討我們過去高風險物質的納管的範圍太小了你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室你們沒有要納管\n剛剛才回覆白紙寫黑字我們來把這些相關的案例現在立委沒有質詢的話沒有這個案子的話我想你們還是不會納官而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的理工池電廠都要比照緊急應變措施這個技術指引規定還要不是只有申報五年報一次的製程評估報告還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練\n針對現場作業的人員的應變能力安全訓練也要建立在定期的演練的制度特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的場區更應該要落實人員訓練和演練的這個訓練確保在事故發生的時候能夠及時應變為什麼我們這麼講\n因為當天的確是很好運 起火的當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙如果沒有及時發現 後果不堪設想而且三原是台泥集團向下的它是最高規的安全標準 在台灣而言它有三道消防和監測系統\n在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器還有17000多顆的煙霧感測器而且採取多階段的防災應變設計包含導入日本的片鋼製片所的整合化整合式的化成系統\n市值高達30億元的監測安全系統但是在這一次的爆炸當中這個30億元的所有的系統的運作都沒有達成預期的效果\n導致火勢迅速蔓延然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備所以這麼有能力的財團大公司這麼高度專業的資本規模這麼好的子公司\n都在製程中發現爆炸引發大火火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅而且還要持續灌水這麼多天而且有15個人受傷可見這個產業他的潛在風險這麼高如果如果不是台擬集團\n是規模比較小的管理資源更有限的遇到這種狀況我肯定講他的傷亡他的環境衝擊會更嚴重對社區周遭社區的居民健康的威脅更是難以想像所以你們如果沒有我在這裡講\n你們的治安署白紙寫黑字還在講離電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險所有的風險高風險都是在使用階段這種話還講得出來我今天講\n鋰電池的製造的結構性挑戰他當然產能升級的同時要做好風險看管而且這是未來產業不是只有鋰電池而且還有所謂的除能除能產業除能產業正要大大的發展了所以這種狀況裡面這種事故如果一發生他是\n還多重保護失效的結果在這種持續要優化保護層的風險管理的時候包括要防爆管理要完善VOC氣體偵測 排風系統的整合配置異常狀況下的自動連鎖停機或啟動通風壓制的措施所以它的火災有三大風險難預測 難撲滅 毒性高\n鋰電池工廠除能工廠不要忘了2月今年在深坑鋰電池這個倉庫就爆炸了影響有多大不要再講到說美國的一個除能工廠在今年1月還是什麼時候他他爆炸是疏散1500人然後呢\n在這種狀況裡面鋰電池熱失控有三種成因內部材料缺陷外部當然受到穿刺擠壓高溫環境或是使用的過程操作不當所以它並不是只有在使用階段它在製成的階段風險就非常高\n部長你有沒有聽過去年南韓京畿道鋰亞電池工廠因為存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池你知道他們多少人死傷嗎\n我有關注這個事件但是我沒有記得他我來舉這個例子跟你分享提醒你在一塊裡電池起火以後一個然後就急劇的擴散引發連續的爆炸當時有67個人在產線上然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸42秒就吞沒了工廠最後23人死亡\n8個受傷這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一在去年才剛發生而你們的治安署還告訴我們說製程風險很低你知道當時的南韓水源地方法院在今年9月23號依照違反重大災害處罰法派遣法勤勞積存法判處公司的負責人\n很重15年的有期徒刑而我們今天在講三元高雄的鋰電廠這個爆炸案以後\n高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了\n甚至很多民眾連他自己他自己的風險都不知道他隔壁做電池的有沒有風險他也不知道沒有災害的意思所以在這種狀況裡面勞動部有沒有必要跟相關的部會整合治安法 災防法 獨管法我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利\n他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前\n那所以接下來那在我們的這個擴大的強化的減災計畫裡面其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質我知道但是如果今天沒有立委質詢你們是不是就沒有納管\n當然我覺得在回覆上面我覺得我們可以做一些檢討那其實只要是高風險的部分該納管的納管尤其這是一個大的公司那這也是包括電池產業其實也是大家非常關注的產業整個產業不是只有這一個公司整個產業包括除能產業台灣也剛起步要大大的發展這裡面我們知道你知道鋰電池的風險製造的風險我非常清楚因為我對能源產業很清楚\n所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險的管理讓我再提醒你燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫本類當火警發生的時候對周遭的空氣氟化氫本類這是多麼可怕的事情\n難怪會有20幾個人馬上死亡所以我們今天在講說你們現在不要講說納管納到高風險的管制裡面現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或者是除能產業的設備\n你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零\n所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來\n那用這個方式其實來做一個更根本性的安全安全管理系統我們現在所定在可能相當規模相當資本以上規模以下你難道不需要製程安全的規範或是指引嗎\n當然當然但我說就像剛剛以三元或者是像台尼這樣子的規模的企業來說我覺得他們其實應該是更可是台灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些規範安全規範可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範你們可不可以一併檢討當然當然那大概要多久三個月可以嗎三個月好OK謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.366 --> 00:10.587\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長來有請部長林委員好部長今天的這個修法我是曾經在這個新聞媒體上看到一個一個報導這樣子的就是說一個子公司他的等於是\n\n00:38.464 --> 00:58.486\n主管最高主管他涉及霸凌那他們子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組也有外聘的委員就照我們勞動部的規定然後有一個調查報告出來了那也確認了這個霸凌了那我今天要請問你\n\n00:59.887 --> 01:24.948\n如果這樣的霸凌案要處分就送到母公司母公司以這個董事會的決議對於調查報告認為這個程序有瑕疵母公司要自己要再去調查然後或者是要修正子公司的這個調查報告或者是直接就\n\n01:26.990 --> 01:54.427\n決議不予處分你覺得在現在的修法的機制或現行的法律架構裡面有這樣的一個爭議的解決的機制嗎跟委員說明的確就是在因為現行的它其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這些事情所以因為它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚所以可能會產生像這樣的事情但我們現在要修法了我現在還是在問你同樣的事情在修法過後有解決的機制嗎\n\n02:00.621 --> 02:20.342\n子公司是不是一個獨立的法人他獨立的法人調查報告出來他的母公司也是一個獨立的法人可是他們母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告介入子公司的調查報告\n\n02:21.343 --> 02:46.296\n然後這個介入人事的懲處這樣子是可以的嗎有解決的機制的嗎就現在我們在設計這個機制來說我們這個子公司我們就把當作是一個獨立的法人他的調查他只要他的程序完備做出來的結果就應該就按照這個結果來處理讓母公司可以以董事會的決議否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎\n\n02:49.076 --> 03:14.521\n那母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎我們沒有瑕疵是地方政府來的瑕疵是如果程序上有瑕疵是要由勞工去用39條然後來請地方主管機關來認定不是母公司現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人主管還有母公司認為有瑕疵\n\n03:15.541 --> 03:43.296\n那因為他已經調查報告了然後這個勞工受僱者也確認這個調查報告的調查是事實他認為他被霸凌了調查報告也是這樣子了那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位來或者是勞檢的主管機關來去做認定把這一個調查報告擱置了那要怎麼處理有什麼解決機制\n\n03:47.720 --> 04:02.952\n我在講的是雖然是我從媒體上看的報導但我覺得這樣的可能性存不存在存在啊母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候母公司不同意\n\n04:04.844 --> 04:24.618\n這個事情在你在修法也都沒有談到這個事情今天沒有辦法解決沒關係你們回去好好思考那我今天不是要談這個我其實今天大家都談很多了那我要提醒你另外一個議題就是隨著全球這個電動車還有儲能市場的這個產業的發展那鋰電池製造業正面臨的產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重的挑戰\n\n04:34.684 --> 04:59.659\n那今年的7月14号高雄的小港三元能源锂电池工厂发生火灾爆炸而且很严重的造成了15个人的受伤其中有12名员工3名消防员而三元能源科技公司他自己也自主调查初步判断事故是指向多重系统的异常和事件叠加的情况\n\n05:00.399 --> 05:15.430\n包括不明的高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動以及後續的電力中斷導致廠區的消防系統失效\n\n05:16.351 --> 05:43.131\n那我們現在跟你討論這個是因為以三元能源科技高雄廠這個火災爆炸事件為例我要請教你這個鋰電池工廠鋰電池製造他有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第26條規定所謂的需要做出這個製程安全評估報告5年要做一次然後要有這個\n\n05:46.614 --> 06:06.210\n風險比較高風險的風險評估的責任那他有在這個甲乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的這個優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制的範圍裡面然後列管嗎\n\n06:07.674 --> 06:27.941\n根本說沒有就三元能源這個案例來說目前是沒有被放進這個納管的範圍但是我們接下來因為今天我們談的是治安法的修法但我們預計應該也許在11月或12月我們會提出一個更完整的減災計劃但願如此為什麼這麼說呢\n\n06:30.522 --> 06:48.676\n因为你们职安署在我们办公室询问这个事情的时候你们职安署是这样回复我们的他说锂电池目前并非甲乙丙类因为制造过程中没有管制物品锂电池之所以容易爆炸是在使用阶段\n\n06:49.637 --> 07:03.704\n過度充電過度放電或者是外部損傷以及電解液儲存不當那鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險的而且是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險\n\n07:04.824 --> 07:19.291\n你們治安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我們辦公室那跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的在這種狀況裡面我們看到他們公司自主的這個報告\n\n07:20.672 --> 07:36.417\n起火云就写到人为操作或机械异常导致瑕疵半成品进入化成半成品常温静置区酿灾所以他们认为可能火灾就是生产流程中自动外观检查制成\n\n07:37.097 --> 07:59.849\n因故轉成人工目視本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視那因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出第二個於自動化流程機械設備因故發生異常造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出\n\n08:00.709 --> 08:16.048\n所以這種狀況裡面請問部長你們公文回覆林淑芬辦公室的都在講製程的風險太低了然後呢都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險才是爆炸的高風險使用過程\n\n08:16.949 --> 08:32.527\n那剛剛講三元三元你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看他們自己的報告這個是使用階段還是製造製成的階段\n\n08:34.249 --> 08:48.757\n就工廠來說當然是製程的階段那你們說低風險不納管跟委員報告其實我們本來就有其實這幾個月我們一直在跟治安署在檢討我們過去高風險物質的納管的範圍太小了你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室你們沒有要納管\n\n08:54.400 --> 09:20.421\n剛剛才回覆白紙寫黑字我們來把這些相關的案例現在立委沒有質詢的話沒有這個案子的話我想你們還是不會納官而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的理工池電廠都要比照緊急應變措施這個技術指引規定還要不是只有申報五年報一次的製程評估報告還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練\n\n09:23.462 --> 09:41.249\n針對現場作業的人員的應變能力安全訓練也要建立在定期的演練的制度特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的場區更應該要落實人員訓練和演練的這個訓練確保在事故發生的時候能夠及時應變為什麼我們這麼講\n\n09:43.630 --> 10:04.906\n因為當天的確是很好運起火的當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙如果沒有及時發現後果不堪設想而且三原是台泥集團向下的它是最高規的安全標準在台灣而言它有三道消防和監測系統\n\n10:06.767 --> 10:26.615\n在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器還有17000多顆的煙霧感測器而且採取多階段的防災應變設計包含導入日本的片鋼製片所的整合化整合式的化成系統\n\n10:27.475 --> 10:41.796\n市值高達30億元的監測安全系統但是在這一次的爆炸當中這個30億元的所有的系統的運作都沒有達成預期的效果\n\n10:42.877 --> 10:57.453\n導致火勢迅速蔓延然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備所以這麼有能力的財團大公司這麼高度專業的資本規模這麼好的子公司\n\n10:58.194 --> 11:13.847\n都在製程中發現爆炸引發大火火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅而且還要持續灌水這麼多天而且有15個人受傷可見這個產業他的潛在風險這麼高如果如果不是台擬集團\n\n11:19.091 --> 11:37.905\n是規模比較小的管理資源更有限的遇到這種狀況我肯定講他的傷亡他的環境衝擊會更嚴重對社區周遭社區的居民健康的威脅更是難以想像所以你們如果沒有我在這裡講\n\n11:38.686 --> 11:50.530\n你們的治安署白紙寫黑字還在講離電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險所有的風險高風險都是在使用階段這種話還講得出來我今天講\n\n11:54.673 --> 12:17.003\n鋰電池的製造的結構性挑戰他當然產能升級的同時要做好風險看管而且這是未來產業不是只有鋰電池而且還有所謂的除能除能產業除能產業正要大大的發展了所以這種狀況裡面這種事故如果一發生他是\n\n12:17.883 --> 12:42.151\n還多重保護失效的結果在這種持續要優化保護層的風險管理的時候包括要防爆管理要完善VOC氣體偵測排風系統的整合配置異常狀況下的自動連鎖停機或啟動通風壓制的措施所以它的火災有三大風險難預測難撲滅毒性高\n\n12:48.284 --> 13:12.399\n鋰電池工廠除能工廠不要忘了2月今年在深坑鋰電池這個倉庫就爆炸了影響有多大不要再講到說美國的一個除能工廠在今年1月還是什麼時候他他爆炸是疏散1500人然後呢\n\n13:13.413 --> 13:32.127\n在這種狀況裡面鋰電池熱失控有三種成因內部材料缺陷外部當然受到穿刺擠壓高溫環境或是使用的過程操作不當所以它並不是只有在使用階段它在製成的階段風險就非常高\n\n13:33.393 --> 13:45.514\n部長你有沒有聽過去年南韓京畿道鋰亞電池工廠因為存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池你知道他們多少人死傷嗎\n\n13:48.006 --> 14:15.697\n我有關注這個事件但是我沒有記得他我來舉這個例子跟你分享提醒你在一塊裡電池起火以後一個然後就急劇的擴散引發連續的爆炸當時有67個人在產線上然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸42秒就吞沒了工廠最後23人死亡\n\n14:17.717 --> 14:44.170\n8個受傷這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一在去年才剛發生而你們的治安署還告訴我們說製程風險很低你知道當時的南韓水源地方法院在今年9月23號依照違反重大災害處罰法派遣法勤勞積存法判處公司的負責人\n\n14:45.250 --> 14:54.229\n很重15年的有期徒刑而我們今天在講三元高雄的鋰電廠這個爆炸案以後\n\n14:55.578 --> 15:16.179\n高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了\n\n15:17.080 --> 15:41.177\n甚至很多民眾連他自己他自己的風險都不知道他隔壁做電池的有沒有風險他也不知道沒有災害的意思所以在這種狀況裡面勞動部有沒有必要跟相關的部會整合治安法災防法獨管法我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利\n\n15:45.111 --> 15:57.968\n他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前\n\n16:03.214 --> 16:19.421\n那所以接下來那在我們的這個擴大的強化的減災計畫裡面其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質我知道但是如果今天沒有立委質詢你們是不是就沒有納管\n\n16:20.441 --> 16:45.761\n當然我覺得在回覆上面我覺得我們可以做一些檢討那其實只要是高風險的部分該納管的納管尤其這是一個大的公司那這也是包括電池產業其實也是大家非常關注的產業整個產業不是只有這一個公司整個產業包括除能產業台灣也剛起步要大大的發展這裡面我們知道你知道鋰電池的風險製造的風險我非常清楚因為我對能源產業很清楚\n\n16:46.301 --> 17:01.846\n所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險的管理讓我再提醒你燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫本類當火警發生的時候對周遭的空氣氟化氫本類這是多麼可怕的事情\n\n17:03.829 --> 17:18.760\n難怪會有20幾個人馬上死亡所以我們今天在講說你們現在不要講說納管納到高風險的管制裡面現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或者是除能產業的設備\n\n17:20.922 --> 17:39.689\n你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零\n\n17:40.749 --> 18:08.266\n所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來\n\n18:09.767 --> 18:17.272\n那用這個方式其實來做一個更根本性的安全安全管理系統我們現在所定在可能相當規模相當資本以上規模以下你難道不需要製程安全的規範或是指引嗎\n\n18:25.777 --> 18:47.261\n當然當然但我說就像剛剛以三元或者是像台尼這樣子的規模的企業來說我覺得他們其實應該是更可是台灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些規範安全規範可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範你們可不可以一併檢討當然當然那大概要多久三個月可以嗎三個月好OK謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.366,"end":10.587,"text":"好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長來有請部長林委員好部長今天的這個修法我是曾經在這個新聞媒體上看到一個一個報導這樣子的就是說一個子公司他的等於是"},{"start":38.464,"end":58.486,"text":"主管最高主管他涉及霸凌那他們子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組也有外聘的委員就照我們勞動部的規定然後有一個調查報告出來了那也確認了這個霸凌了那我今天要請問你"},{"start":59.887,"end":84.948,"text":"如果這樣的霸凌案要處分就送到母公司母公司以這個董事會的決議對於調查報告認為這個程序有瑕疵母公司要自己要再去調查然後或者是要修正子公司的這個調查報告或者是直接就"},{"start":86.99,"end":114.427,"text":"決議不予處分你覺得在現在的修法的機制或現行的法律架構裡面有這樣的一個爭議的解決的機制嗎跟委員說明的確就是在因為現行的它其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這些事情所以因為它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚所以可能會產生像這樣的事情但我們現在要修法了我現在還是在問你同樣的事情在修法過後有解決的機制嗎"},{"start":120.621,"end":140.342,"text":"子公司是不是一個獨立的法人他獨立的法人調查報告出來他的母公司也是一個獨立的法人可是他們母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告介入子公司的調查報告"},{"start":141.343,"end":166.296,"text":"然後這個介入人事的懲處這樣子是可以的嗎有解決的機制的嗎就現在我們在設計這個機制來說我們這個子公司我們就把當作是一個獨立的法人他的調查他只要他的程序完備做出來的結果就應該就按照這個結果來處理讓母公司可以以董事會的決議否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎"},{"start":169.076,"end":194.521,"text":"那母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎我們沒有瑕疵是地方政府來的瑕疵是如果程序上有瑕疵是要由勞工去用39條然後來請地方主管機關來認定不是母公司現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人主管還有母公司認為有瑕疵"},{"start":195.541,"end":223.296,"text":"那因為他已經調查報告了然後這個勞工受僱者也確認這個調查報告的調查是事實他認為他被霸凌了調查報告也是這樣子了那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位來或者是勞檢的主管機關來去做認定把這一個調查報告擱置了那要怎麼處理有什麼解決機制"},{"start":227.72,"end":242.952,"text":"我在講的是雖然是我從媒體上看的報導但我覺得這樣的可能性存不存在存在啊母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候母公司不同意"},{"start":244.844,"end":264.618,"text":"這個事情在你在修法也都沒有談到這個事情今天沒有辦法解決沒關係你們回去好好思考那我今天不是要談這個我其實今天大家都談很多了那我要提醒你另外一個議題就是隨著全球這個電動車還有儲能市場的這個產業的發展那鋰電池製造業正面臨的產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重的挑戰"},{"start":274.684,"end":299.659,"text":"那今年的7月14号高雄的小港三元能源锂电池工厂发生火灾爆炸而且很严重的造成了15个人的受伤其中有12名员工3名消防员而三元能源科技公司他自己也自主调查初步判断事故是指向多重系统的异常和事件叠加的情况"},{"start":300.399,"end":315.43,"text":"包括不明的高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動以及後續的電力中斷導致廠區的消防系統失效"},{"start":316.351,"end":343.131,"text":"那我們現在跟你討論這個是因為以三元能源科技高雄廠這個火災爆炸事件為例我要請教你這個鋰電池工廠鋰電池製造他有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第26條規定所謂的需要做出這個製程安全評估報告5年要做一次然後要有這個"},{"start":346.614,"end":366.21,"text":"風險比較高風險的風險評估的責任那他有在這個甲乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的這個優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制的範圍裡面然後列管嗎"},{"start":367.674,"end":387.941,"text":"根本說沒有就三元能源這個案例來說目前是沒有被放進這個納管的範圍但是我們接下來因為今天我們談的是治安法的修法但我們預計應該也許在11月或12月我們會提出一個更完整的減災計劃但願如此為什麼這麼說呢"},{"start":390.522,"end":408.676,"text":"因为你们职安署在我们办公室询问这个事情的时候你们职安署是这样回复我们的他说锂电池目前并非甲乙丙类因为制造过程中没有管制物品锂电池之所以容易爆炸是在使用阶段"},{"start":409.637,"end":423.704,"text":"過度充電 過度放電或者是外部損傷以及電解液儲存不當那鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險的而且是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險"},{"start":424.824,"end":439.291,"text":"你們治安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我們辦公室那跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的在這種狀況裡面我們看到他們公司自主的這個報告"},{"start":440.672,"end":456.417,"text":"起火云就写到人为操作或机械异常导致瑕疵半成品进入化成半成品常温静置区酿灾所以他们认为可能火灾就是生产流程中自动外观检查制成"},{"start":457.097,"end":479.849,"text":"因故轉成人工目視本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視那因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出第二個於自動化流程機械設備因故發生異常造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出"},{"start":480.709,"end":496.048,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面請問部長你們公文回覆林淑芬辦公室的都在講製程的風險太低了然後呢都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險才是爆炸的高風險使用過程"},{"start":496.949,"end":512.527,"text":"那剛剛講三元三元你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看他們自己的報告這個是使用階段還是製造製成的階段"},{"start":514.249,"end":528.757,"text":"就工廠來說當然是製程的階段那你們說低風險不納管跟委員報告其實我們本來就有其實這幾個月我們一直在跟治安署在檢討我們過去高風險物質的納管的範圍太小了你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室你們沒有要納管"},{"start":534.4,"end":560.421,"text":"剛剛才回覆白紙寫黑字我們來把這些相關的案例現在立委沒有質詢的話沒有這個案子的話我想你們還是不會納官而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的理工池電廠都要比照緊急應變措施這個技術指引規定還要不是只有申報五年報一次的製程評估報告還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練"},{"start":563.462,"end":581.249,"text":"針對現場作業的人員的應變能力安全訓練也要建立在定期的演練的制度特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的場區更應該要落實人員訓練和演練的這個訓練確保在事故發生的時候能夠及時應變為什麼我們這麼講"},{"start":583.63,"end":604.906,"text":"因為當天的確是很好運 起火的當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙如果沒有及時發現 後果不堪設想而且三原是台泥集團向下的它是最高規的安全標準 在台灣而言它有三道消防和監測系統"},{"start":606.767,"end":626.615,"text":"在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器還有17000多顆的煙霧感測器而且採取多階段的防災應變設計包含導入日本的片鋼製片所的整合化整合式的化成系統"},{"start":627.475,"end":641.796,"text":"市值高達30億元的監測安全系統但是在這一次的爆炸當中這個30億元的所有的系統的運作都沒有達成預期的效果"},{"start":642.877,"end":657.453,"text":"導致火勢迅速蔓延然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備所以這麼有能力的財團大公司這麼高度專業的資本規模這麼好的子公司"},{"start":658.194,"end":673.847,"text":"都在製程中發現爆炸引發大火火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅而且還要持續灌水這麼多天而且有15個人受傷可見這個產業他的潛在風險這麼高如果如果不是台擬集團"},{"start":679.091,"end":697.905,"text":"是規模比較小的管理資源更有限的遇到這種狀況我肯定講他的傷亡他的環境衝擊會更嚴重對社區周遭社區的居民健康的威脅更是難以想像所以你們如果沒有我在這裡講"},{"start":698.686,"end":710.53,"text":"你們的治安署白紙寫黑字還在講離電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險所有的風險高風險都是在使用階段這種話還講得出來我今天講"},{"start":714.673,"end":737.003,"text":"鋰電池的製造的結構性挑戰他當然產能升級的同時要做好風險看管而且這是未來產業不是只有鋰電池而且還有所謂的除能除能產業除能產業正要大大的發展了所以這種狀況裡面這種事故如果一發生他是"},{"start":737.883,"end":762.151,"text":"還多重保護失效的結果在這種持續要優化保護層的風險管理的時候包括要防爆管理要完善VOC氣體偵測 排風系統的整合配置異常狀況下的自動連鎖停機或啟動通風壓制的措施所以它的火災有三大風險難預測 難撲滅 毒性高"},{"start":768.284,"end":792.399,"text":"鋰電池工廠除能工廠不要忘了2月今年在深坑鋰電池這個倉庫就爆炸了影響有多大不要再講到說美國的一個除能工廠在今年1月還是什麼時候他他爆炸是疏散1500人然後呢"},{"start":793.413,"end":812.127,"text":"在這種狀況裡面鋰電池熱失控有三種成因內部材料缺陷外部當然受到穿刺擠壓高溫環境或是使用的過程操作不當所以它並不是只有在使用階段它在製成的階段風險就非常高"},{"start":813.393,"end":825.514,"text":"部長你有沒有聽過去年南韓京畿道鋰亞電池工廠因為存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池你知道他們多少人死傷嗎"},{"start":828.006,"end":855.697,"text":"我有關注這個事件但是我沒有記得他我來舉這個例子跟你分享提醒你在一塊裡電池起火以後一個然後就急劇的擴散引發連續的爆炸當時有67個人在產線上然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸42秒就吞沒了工廠最後23人死亡"},{"start":857.717,"end":884.17,"text":"8個受傷這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一在去年才剛發生而你們的治安署還告訴我們說製程風險很低你知道當時的南韓水源地方法院在今年9月23號依照違反重大災害處罰法派遣法勤勞積存法判處公司的負責人"},{"start":885.25,"end":894.229,"text":"很重15年的有期徒刑而我們今天在講三元高雄的鋰電廠這個爆炸案以後"},{"start":895.578,"end":916.179,"text":"高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了"},{"start":917.08,"end":941.177,"text":"甚至很多民眾連他自己他自己的風險都不知道他隔壁做電池的有沒有風險他也不知道沒有災害的意思所以在這種狀況裡面勞動部有沒有必要跟相關的部會整合治安法 災防法 獨管法我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利"},{"start":945.111,"end":957.968,"text":"他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前"},{"start":963.214,"end":979.421,"text":"那所以接下來那在我們的這個擴大的強化的減災計畫裡面其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質我知道但是如果今天沒有立委質詢你們是不是就沒有納管"},{"start":980.441,"end":1005.761,"text":"當然我覺得在回覆上面我覺得我們可以做一些檢討那其實只要是高風險的部分該納管的納管尤其這是一個大的公司那這也是包括電池產業其實也是大家非常關注的產業整個產業不是只有這一個公司整個產業包括除能產業台灣也剛起步要大大的發展這裡面我們知道你知道鋰電池的風險製造的風險我非常清楚因為我對能源產業很清楚"},{"start":1006.301,"end":1021.846,"text":"所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險的管理讓我再提醒你燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫本類當火警發生的時候對周遭的空氣氟化氫本類這是多麼可怕的事情"},{"start":1023.829,"end":1038.76,"text":"難怪會有20幾個人馬上死亡所以我們今天在講說你們現在不要講說納管納到高風險的管制裡面現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或者是除能產業的設備"},{"start":1040.922,"end":1059.689,"text":"你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零"},{"start":1060.749,"end":1088.266,"text":"所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來"},{"start":1089.767,"end":1097.272,"text":"那用這個方式其實來做一個更根本性的安全安全管理系統我們現在所定在可能相當規模相當資本以上規模以下你難道不需要製程安全的規範或是指引嗎"},{"start":1105.777,"end":1127.261,"text":"當然當然但我說就像剛剛以三元或者是像台尼這樣子的規模的企業來說我覺得他們其實應該是更可是台灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些規範安全規範可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範你們可不可以一併檢討當然當然那大概要多久三個月可以嗎三個月好OK謝謝好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":804,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時46分）謝謝主席。請洪部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，關於今天的修法，我曾經在新聞媒體上看到一個報導，就是說一個子公司的最高主管涉及霸凌，子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組，也有外聘的委員，就照勞動部的規定，然後調查報告出來也確認了這個霸凌。我今天要請問你，如果這樣的霸凌案要處分，結果送到母公司，母公司以董事會的決議，認為調查報告的程序有瑕疵，然後母公司要自己再去調查，或者是要修正子公司的調查報告，或者是直接決議不予處分，你覺得在現在的修法機制或現行的法律架構裡面，有這樣的爭議解決機制嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為現行其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這件事情，它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚，所以可能會產生像這樣的事情。"],["林委員淑芬：但我們現在要修法了，我現在還是要問你，同樣的事情在修法過後，有解決的機制嗎？子公司是不是一個獨立的法人？它獨立的法人調查報告出來，它的母公司也是一個獨立的法人，可是母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告，介入子公司的調查報告，然後介入人事的懲處，這樣子是可以的嗎？有解決的機制嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就現在我們在設計這個機制來說，我們就把子公司當作是一個獨立的法人，它的調查只要程序完備，就應該按照這個做出來的結果處理。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那母公司可以以董事會的決議，否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎？母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：瑕疵是地方政府來……如果程序上有瑕疵，是要由勞工用第三十九條，請地方主管機關來認定，不是母公司自己認定的。"],["林委員淑芬：現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人──主管，還有母公司認為有瑕疵，因為它已經有調查報告了，然後這個勞工受僱者也確認調查報告的調查是事實，他認為他被霸凌了，調查報告也是這樣子了，那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定，其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位或者是勞檢的主管機關去認定。"],["林委員淑芬：好，現在如果母公司把這一個調查報告擱置了，要怎麼處理？有什麼解決機制？我在講的雖然是我從媒體上看的報導，但這樣的可能性存不存在？存在啊！母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權，可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候，母公司不同意，你在修法也都沒有談到這件事情，今天沒有辦法解決沒關係，你們回去好好思考。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我今天不是要談這個，其實大家都談很多了，我要提醒你另外一個議題，就是隨著全球電動車還有儲能市場的產業發展，鋰電池製造業正面臨了產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重挑戰。今年7月14日高雄小港的三元能源鋰電池工廠發生火災爆炸，而且很嚴重，造成了15個人受傷，其中有12名員工、3名消防員，而三元能源科技公司自己也自主調查，初步判斷事故是指向「多重系統異常與事件疊加」情況，包括不明高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發、設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動，以及後續電力中斷導致廠區消防系統失效。","以三元能源科技高雄廠的火災爆炸事件為例，我要請教你，鋰電池工廠、鋰電池製造它有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第二十六條規定，需要做出製程安全評估報告，5年要做一次，然後要有比較高風險的風險評估責任？它有在甲、乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制範圍裡面，然後列管嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，就三元能源這個案例來說，目前沒有被放進納管的範圍。"],["林委員淑芬：完全沒有，對。"],["洪部長申翰：但是接下來，因為今天談的是職安法的修法，我們預計也許在11月或12月會提出一個更完整的減災計畫，那這個減災……"],["林委員淑芬：但願如此，為什麼這麼說呢？因為職安署在我辦公室詢問這件事情的時候是這樣回復我們：「鋰電池目前並非甲、乙、丙類，因為製造過程中並沒有管制物品。鋰電池之所以容易爆炸是在『使用階段』，包含過度充電、過度放電或者外部損傷，以及電解液儲存不當。鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險，而是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險」，職安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我辦公室，跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的。","我們看到他們公司自主的報告，起火原因就寫到人為操作或機械異常，導致瑕疵半成品進入化成半成品常溫靜置區釀災，所以他們認為火災可能是在生產流程中，自動外觀檢查製程因故轉成人工目視，本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視，因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP，造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出；第二個，於自動化流程中，機械設備因故發生異常，造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出。","在這種狀況裡面，請問部長，你們的公文回復林淑芬辦公室，都在講製程的風險太低了，都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險，使用過程才是爆炸的高風險。那剛剛講三元，你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼？從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看，他們自己的報告，這個是使用階段，還是製造、製程的階段？"],["洪部長申翰：就工廠來說的話，當然是製程的階段。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！那你們說低風險不納管。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實這幾個月我們一直跟職安署在檢討，我們過去高風險物質的納管範圍太小了。"],["林委員淑芬：你們剛回復我們耶！你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室，你們沒有要納管。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：剛剛才回復，白紙寫黑字。"],["洪部長申翰：我們把這些相關的案例再重新做一些檢視。"],["林委員淑芬：現在立委沒有質詢的話，沒有這個案子的話，我想你們還是不會納管，而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的鋰電池工廠都要比照緊急應變措施技術指引規定？不是只有5年申報一次的製程評估報告，還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練，針對現場作業人員的應變能力、安全訓練，也要建立在定期演練的制度，特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的廠區，更應該要落實人員的訓練和演練，確保在事故發生的時候能夠即時應變。","為什麼我們這麼講？因為當天的確是很好運，起火當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙，如果沒有及時發現，後果不堪設想。而且三元是台泥集團項下的，在臺灣而言，它是最高規的安全標準，它有3道消防和監測系統，在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器，還有一萬七千多顆的煙霧感測器，而且採取多階段的防災應變設計，包含導入日本片岡製作所的整合式化成系統，斥資高達30億元的監測安全系統，但是在這一次的爆炸當中，這個30億元的系統所有的運作都沒有達成預期的效果，導致火勢迅速蔓延，然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備。這麼有能力的財團大公司，這麼高度專業的、資本規模這麼好的子公司都在製程中發生爆炸，引發大火，火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅，還要持續灌水這麼多天，而且有15個人受傷，可見這個產業的潛在風險這麼高。如果不是台泥集團，而是規模比較小的、管理資源更有限的，遇到這種狀況，我肯定講，它的傷亡、它的環境衝擊會更嚴重，對周遭社區居民的健康威脅更是難以想像。如果沒有我在這裡講，你們的職安署白紙寫黑字，還在講鋰電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險，所有的高風險都是在使用階段，這種話還講得出來。","鋰電池製造的結構性挑戰，當然在產能升級的同時也要做好風險看管，而且這是未來產業，不是只有鋰電池，還有所謂的儲能產業，儲能產業正要大大地發展，所以在這種狀況裡面，這種事故如果一發生，它還是多重保護失效的結果，在這種要持續優化保護層風險管理的時候，包括防爆管理要完善、VOC氣體偵測與排風系統的整合配置，以及異常狀況下的自動聯鎖停機或啟動通風壓制措施，所以它的火災有三大風險──難預測、難撲滅、毒性高。","鋰電池工廠、儲能工廠，不要忘了，今年2月在深坑的鋰電池倉庫就爆炸了，影響有多大？更不要說美國的一個儲能工廠，在今年1月還是什麼時候，它爆炸是疏散1,500人，在這種狀況，鋰電池熱失控有三種成因，內部是材料缺陷，外部當然是受到穿刺擠壓，還有高溫環境，或是使用的過程操作不當，所以並不是只有在使用階段有風險，在製程的階段風險就非常高。部長，你有沒有聽過，去年南韓京畿道鋰電池工廠存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池，發生火災，你知道多少人死傷嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我有關心這個事件，但是我沒有記得確切死亡人數。"],["林委員淑芬：我舉這個例子跟你分享，提醒你。在一塊電池起火以後，然後就急遽擴散，引發連續的爆炸，當時有67個人在產線上，然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸，火舌在42秒內就吞沒了工廠，最後造成23人死亡、8人受傷，這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一，在去年才剛發生，而你們的職安署還在告訴我們說製程風險很低，可是你知道嗎？南韓水原地方法院在今年9月23日，依照違反重大災害處罰法、派遣法、勤勞基準法，判處公司的負責人15年有期徒刑，判得很重，而我們今天在講的高雄三元鋰電廠發生爆炸以後，高雄市政府就馬上去清查有多少組裝、有多少生產，勞動部對於鋰電池上、中、下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡？如果你們職安署可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低，那我就要替你們擔心了，甚至很多民眾連他自己身邊的風險都不知道，他家隔壁做電池有沒有風險，他也不知道，沒有災害的意識，所以在這種狀況裡面，勞動部有沒有必要跟相關部會整合職安法、災防法、毒管法？我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利？製程風險是高還是低？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，已經有這樣的案例發生，我們很難說是低風險。"],["林委員淑芬：從韓國這個案例來看，只有42秒就全廠燒起來了，二十幾人死亡。"],["洪部長申翰：案例已經發生在眼前，所以接下來，在我們擴大的強化減災計畫裡面，其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道，但是如果今天沒有立委質詢，你們是不是就沒有納管？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得在回復上面，我們可以做一些檢討，只要是高風險的部分，該納管就納管，尤其這是一個大的公司，包括電子產業也是大家非常關心的產業。"],["林委員淑芬：整個產業，不是只有這個公司，而是整個產業，包括儲能產業，在臺灣也剛起步，要大大地發展，而這裡面，你知道鋰電池製造的風險有多大嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：非常非常清楚，因為我對能源產業很清楚，所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險管理做好，對他們的產業也會有很大的影響。"],["林委員淑芬：讓我再提醒你，燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫、苯類，當火警發生的時候，對周遭的空氣會產生污染，產生氟化氫和苯類，這是多麼可怕的事情，難怪會有二十幾個人馬上死亡。你們現在不要講納管、不要講納到高風險的管制裡面，現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或儲能產業設備的相關安全規範，到目前沒有，現在製程安全規範完全沒有！強制性規範0，你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引，但是在安全的、法律的規範上，完全是0，所以由此可知，你們職安署對於這個產業，不管是鋰電池或者是儲能產業，真的是掉以輕心，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，像這樣這麼受關注的指標產業，我自己認為我們接下來應該要跟相關的專家來協助他們，把他們導引至PSM，就是製程安全管理的系統、就是應該直接進入製程安全管理系統，用這個方式來做更根本性的安全管理。"],["林委員淑芬：製程安全管理系統，我們現在鎖定在有相當規模的、有相當資本以上的企業。"],["洪部長申翰：對，就像這樣的企業。"],["林委員淑芬：但是我要講，在這個規模以下的企業，難道不需要製程安全的規範或指引嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["林委員淑芬：目前是都沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。就像三元或台泥這樣子規模的企業來說，我覺得他們其實應該直接導引至PSM。"],["林委員淑芬：可是臺灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些安全規範。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["林委員淑芬：可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範，你們可不可以一併檢討？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，當然，當然。"],["林委員淑芬：大概要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：3個月。"],["林委員淑芬：OK。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}