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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 400.495, \"end\": 400.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 400.516, \"end\": 400.596, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 400.596, \"end\": 400.636, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 400.636, \"end\": 400.696, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 400.696, \"end\": 400.876, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 400.876, \"end\": 400.896, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,495 --> 00:00:07,963\n謝主席有請林部長來林部長請\n\n2\n00:00:14,049 --> 00:00:41,445\n會員你好部長上次提到META有錯殺率太高的問題本席肯定你上任之後非常積極的追蹤跟META來進行溝通但是這個誠信原則所造成的衝擊還是越來越大也就是它自救會的成員從4000多人現在已經到了5000多人了那我就比較一下為什麼META會出現這麼高的錯殺率那你一看\n\n3\n00:00:42,265 --> 00:01:08,601\nLINE的部分的錯殺率很低LINE的部分它之前大規模因為詐騙的問題停了7.3萬7萬3千個但是它申訴案件很少跟委員報告其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺的案件所以曾經還有50幾個他們的用戶跑到他們大樓相對而言比較之下那關鍵在哪裡本席就稍微去跟他了解一下\n\n4\n00:01:09,421 --> 00:01:31,543\n就是說LINE的部分它其實在使用的部分它適用消保法它有一個定期化的契約記載事項所以導致LINE的時候不能隨便停權使用者它可能會有訴訟跟賠償的問題對不對問題就來了Meta沒有Meta沒有的部分好像說用LINE它有購買貼圖\n\n5\n00:01:34,305 --> 00:01:54,119\n可是問題是Meta的部分的過程當中因為流量一它可以獲利使用者沒有獲利衝的流量它有獲利二我們選舉的時候也會增加那個觸及率我們會買啊怎麼會沒有買也有商業行為啊所以同樣的商業行為是不是也可以比照賴的方式來適用這個消保法\n\n6\n00:01:54,699 --> 00:02:10,913\n部長是這個我們去研究瞭解一下是不是素杉署長跟委員報告就是這個在行政院的消保處有討論過目前這種平台的免費使用是不是適用消保法這個是還要再釐清已經有例子了嘛署長\n\n7\n00:02:12,133 --> 00:02:37,145\n你現在的狀況我們就比較結果Meta的方式就用這種方式他就不能隨便亂做錯差他就會更加謹慎他的程式的設計對不對對使用者相對有保障已經有一個好方法部長這個要不要去好好研究一下是我想我們署長的意思是說因為在Facebook上大部分使用者並沒有付錢給那個Facebook所以不能適用為那個消費者我們有付怎麼會沒有付\n\n8\n00:02:38,178 --> 00:02:56,286\n我廣告的時候廣告上有付他就必須下廣告就有付啦但是如果說我是一個使用者我沒有付錢給那個Mapa然後我的那個被封鎖的話把他延伸出去嘛我們事實上也有付嘛所以說我們是有他有付的這個機制在嘛\n\n9\n00:02:57,466 --> 00:03:20,678\n如果是他有負的機制在的話就類似於這種商業行為嘛我請部長回去好好研究一下好不好好比照辦理嘛第二個部分呢最近有一個消息翠的部分啊台灣的流量啊是全球第一耶是對啊那過去以往我們要求他落地的時候啊他們就放在客服啊就說Meta就說啊我們這邊呢非常有限所以不願意投入人力你這樣講得通嗎\n\n10\n00:03:21,778 --> 00:03:37,244\n部長這樣講不通講不通那有什麼方式讓Meta來落地OK在Thread方面其實Thread上面的那個詐騙我們在之前納管之前我們就已經在有在巡檢有在通報他們他們也都一般來講都配合的狀況都不錯溝通還可以\n\n11\n00:03:38,965 --> 00:03:56,407\n溝通還可以但是因為Thread它在今年3月以前它並不提供廣告那依照我們打造專訪我們只管廣告所以我們納管了那個FacebookLine還有Google因為它都有廣告但是Thread沒有廣告那3月它開始放廣告以後我們就開始進入這個程序要把它們納管所以要納管了\n\n12\n00:03:56,747 --> 00:04:15,117\n但是我是說如果可以的話應該把Meta這些人也要求落地讓你溝通會比較方便不然的話有些署長次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號\n\n13\n00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:31,474\n我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎\n\n14\n00:04:32,840 --> 00:05:00,697\n是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是\n\n15\n00:05:01,698 --> 00:05:27,109\nLINE的部分一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本期最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人\n\n16\n00:05:27,749 --> 00:05:50,609\n身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對\n\n17\n00:05:51,309 --> 00:06:08,071\n是沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示\n\n18\n00:06:09,092 --> 00:06:30,846\n對沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛是不是希望這樣來就這三個部分嘛一個是外國的一個揭示然後一個的部分呢就是使用者的一個這一個造謠救者的一個機制然後另外一個部分呢就是有關於這個消保的權利保障好不好這個部分要多久給本席我們希望那個\n\n19\n00:06:33,326 --> 00:06:40,896\n委員我們經常有那個聯絡再去跟委員報告在年底之前下禮拜我們先來聊一聊沒問題謝謝希望有一個具體的時間點沒問題拖太久問題會越多期待你謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5495\t7963\t謝主席 有請林部長來 林部長請\n14049\t41445\t會員你好部長上次提到META有錯殺率太高的問題本席肯定你上任之後非常積極的追蹤跟META來進行溝通但是這個誠信原則所造成的衝擊還是越來越大也就是它自救會的成員從4000多人現在已經到了5000多人了那我就比較一下為什麼META會出現這麼高的錯殺率那你一看\n42265\t68601\tLINE的部分的錯殺率很低LINE的部分它之前大規模因為詐騙的問題停了7.3萬7萬3千個但是它申訴案件很少跟委員報告其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺的案件所以曾經還有50幾個他們的用戶跑到他們大樓相對而言比較之下那關鍵在哪裡本席就稍微去跟他了解一下\n69421\t91543\t就是說LINE的部分它其實在使用的部分它適用消保法它有一個定期化的契約記載事項所以導致LINE的時候不能隨便停權使用者它可能會有訴訟跟賠償的問題對不對問題就來了Meta沒有Meta沒有的部分好像說用LINE它有購買貼圖\n94305\t114119\t可是問題是Meta的部分的過程當中因為流量一 它可以獲利使用者沒有獲利衝的流量它有獲利二 我們選舉的時候也會增加那個觸及率我們會買啊 怎麼會沒有買也有商業行為啊所以同樣的商業行為是不是也可以比照賴的方式來適用這個消保法\n114699\t130913\t部長 是 這個我們去研究瞭解一下是不是 素杉署長跟委員報告就是這個在行政院的消保處有討論過目前這種平台的免費使用是不是適用消保法這個是還要再釐清已經有例子了嘛 署長\n132133\t157145\t你現在的狀況我們就比較結果Meta的方式就用這種方式他就不能隨便亂做錯差他就會更加謹慎他的程式的設計對不對對使用者相對有保障已經有一個好方法部長這個要不要去好好研究一下是 我想我們署長的意思是說因為在Facebook上大部分使用者並沒有付錢給那個Facebook所以不能適用為那個消費者我們有付 怎麼會沒有付\n158178\t176286\t我廣告的時候廣告上有付他就必須下廣告就有付啦但是如果說我是一個使用者我沒有付錢給那個Mapa然後我的那個被封鎖的話把他延伸出去嘛我們事實上也有付嘛所以說我們是有他有付的這個機制在嘛\n177466\t200678\t如果是他有負的機制在的話就類似於這種商業行為嘛我請部長回去好好研究一下好不好好比照辦理嘛第二個部分呢最近有一個消息翠的部分啊台灣的流量啊是全球第一耶是對啊那過去以往我們要求他落地的時候啊他們就放在客服啊就說Meta就說啊我們這邊呢非常有限所以不願意投入人力你這樣講得通嗎\n201778\t217244\t部長這樣講不通講不通那有什麼方式讓Meta來落地OK在Thread方面其實Thread上面的那個詐騙我們在之前納管之前我們就已經在有在巡檢有在通報他們他們也都一般來講都配合的狀況都不錯溝通還可以\n218965\t236407\t溝通還可以但是因為Thread它在今年3月以前它並不提供廣告那依照我們打造專訪我們只管廣告所以我們納管了那個Facebook Line還有Google因為它都有廣告但是Thread沒有廣告那3月它開始放廣告以後我們就開始進入這個程序要把它們納管所以要納管了\n236747\t255117\t但是我是說如果可以的話應該把Meta這些人也要求落地讓你溝通會比較方便不然的話有些署長 次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號\n256800\t271474\t我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎\n272840\t300697\t是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是\n301698\t327109\tLINE的部分一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本期最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人\n327749\t350609\t身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對\n351309\t368071\t是 沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示\n369092\t390846\t對 沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛 是不是希望這樣來就這三個部分嘛一個是外國的一個揭示然後一個的部分呢就是使用者的一個這一個造謠救者的一個機制然後另外一個部分呢就是有關於這個消保的權利保障好不好這個部分要多久給本席我們希望那個\n393326\t400896\t委員我們經常有那個聯絡再去跟委員報告在年底之前下禮拜我們先來聊一聊沒問題謝謝希望有一個具體的時間點沒問題拖太久問題會越多期待你謝謝\n","txt":"謝主席 有請林部長來 林部長請\n會員你好部長上次提到META有錯殺率太高的問題本席肯定你上任之後非常積極的追蹤跟META來進行溝通但是這個誠信原則所造成的衝擊還是越來越大也就是它自救會的成員從4000多人現在已經到了5000多人了那我就比較一下為什麼META會出現這麼高的錯殺率那你一看\nLINE的部分的錯殺率很低LINE的部分它之前大規模因為詐騙的問題停了7.3萬7萬3千個但是它申訴案件很少跟委員報告其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺的案件所以曾經還有50幾個他們的用戶跑到他們大樓相對而言比較之下那關鍵在哪裡本席就稍微去跟他了解一下\n就是說LINE的部分它其實在使用的部分它適用消保法它有一個定期化的契約記載事項所以導致LINE的時候不能隨便停權使用者它可能會有訴訟跟賠償的問題對不對問題就來了Meta沒有Meta沒有的部分好像說用LINE它有購買貼圖\n可是問題是Meta的部分的過程當中因為流量一 它可以獲利使用者沒有獲利衝的流量它有獲利二 我們選舉的時候也會增加那個觸及率我們會買啊 怎麼會沒有買也有商業行為啊所以同樣的商業行為是不是也可以比照賴的方式來適用這個消保法\n部長 是 這個我們去研究瞭解一下是不是 素杉署長跟委員報告就是這個在行政院的消保處有討論過目前這種平台的免費使用是不是適用消保法這個是還要再釐清已經有例子了嘛 署長\n你現在的狀況我們就比較結果Meta的方式就用這種方式他就不能隨便亂做錯差他就會更加謹慎他的程式的設計對不對對使用者相對有保障已經有一個好方法部長這個要不要去好好研究一下是 我想我們署長的意思是說因為在Facebook上大部分使用者並沒有付錢給那個Facebook所以不能適用為那個消費者我們有付 怎麼會沒有付\n我廣告的時候廣告上有付他就必須下廣告就有付啦但是如果說我是一個使用者我沒有付錢給那個Mapa然後我的那個被封鎖的話把他延伸出去嘛我們事實上也有付嘛所以說我們是有他有付的這個機制在嘛\n如果是他有負的機制在的話就類似於這種商業行為嘛我請部長回去好好研究一下好不好好比照辦理嘛第二個部分呢最近有一個消息翠的部分啊台灣的流量啊是全球第一耶是對啊那過去以往我們要求他落地的時候啊他們就放在客服啊就說Meta就說啊我們這邊呢非常有限所以不願意投入人力你這樣講得通嗎\n部長這樣講不通講不通那有什麼方式讓Meta來落地OK在Thread方面其實Thread上面的那個詐騙我們在之前納管之前我們就已經在有在巡檢有在通報他們他們也都一般來講都配合的狀況都不錯溝通還可以\n溝通還可以但是因為Thread它在今年3月以前它並不提供廣告那依照我們打造專訪我們只管廣告所以我們納管了那個Facebook Line還有Google因為它都有廣告但是Thread沒有廣告那3月它開始放廣告以後我們就開始進入這個程序要把它們納管所以要納管了\n但是我是說如果可以的話應該把Meta這些人也要求落地讓你溝通會比較方便不然的話有些署長 次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號\n我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎\n是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是\nLINE的部分一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本期最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人\n身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對\n是 沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示\n對 沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛 是不是希望這樣來就這三個部分嘛一個是外國的一個揭示然後一個的部分呢就是使用者的一個這一個造謠救者的一個機制然後另外一個部分呢就是有關於這個消保的權利保障好不好這個部分要多久給本席我們希望那個\n委員我們經常有那個聯絡再去跟委員報告在年底之前下禮拜我們先來聊一聊沒問題謝謝希望有一個具體的時間點沒問題拖太久問題會越多期待你謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.495 --> 00:07.963\n謝主席有請林部長來林部長請\n\n00:14.049 --> 00:41.445\n會員你好部長上次提到META有錯殺率太高的問題本席肯定你上任之後非常積極的追蹤跟META來進行溝通但是這個誠信原則所造成的衝擊還是越來越大也就是它自救會的成員從4000多人現在已經到了5000多人了那我就比較一下為什麼META會出現這麼高的錯殺率那你一看\n\n00:42.265 --> 01:08.601\nLINE的部分的錯殺率很低LINE的部分它之前大規模因為詐騙的問題停了7.3萬7萬3千個但是它申訴案件很少跟委員報告其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺的案件所以曾經還有50幾個他們的用戶跑到他們大樓相對而言比較之下那關鍵在哪裡本席就稍微去跟他了解一下\n\n01:09.421 --> 01:31.543\n就是說LINE的部分它其實在使用的部分它適用消保法它有一個定期化的契約記載事項所以導致LINE的時候不能隨便停權使用者它可能會有訴訟跟賠償的問題對不對問題就來了Meta沒有Meta沒有的部分好像說用LINE它有購買貼圖\n\n01:34.305 --> 01:54.119\n可是問題是Meta的部分的過程當中因為流量一它可以獲利使用者沒有獲利衝的流量它有獲利二我們選舉的時候也會增加那個觸及率我們會買啊怎麼會沒有買也有商業行為啊所以同樣的商業行為是不是也可以比照賴的方式來適用這個消保法\n\n01:54.699 --> 02:10.913\n部長是這個我們去研究瞭解一下是不是素杉署長跟委員報告就是這個在行政院的消保處有討論過目前這種平台的免費使用是不是適用消保法這個是還要再釐清已經有例子了嘛署長\n\n02:12.133 --> 02:37.145\n你現在的狀況我們就比較結果Meta的方式就用這種方式他就不能隨便亂做錯差他就會更加謹慎他的程式的設計對不對對使用者相對有保障已經有一個好方法部長這個要不要去好好研究一下是我想我們署長的意思是說因為在Facebook上大部分使用者並沒有付錢給那個Facebook所以不能適用為那個消費者我們有付怎麼會沒有付\n\n02:38.178 --> 02:56.286\n我廣告的時候廣告上有付他就必須下廣告就有付啦但是如果說我是一個使用者我沒有付錢給那個Mapa然後我的那個被封鎖的話把他延伸出去嘛我們事實上也有付嘛所以說我們是有他有付的這個機制在嘛\n\n02:57.466 --> 03:20.678\n如果是他有負的機制在的話就類似於這種商業行為嘛我請部長回去好好研究一下好不好好比照辦理嘛第二個部分呢最近有一個消息翠的部分啊台灣的流量啊是全球第一耶是對啊那過去以往我們要求他落地的時候啊他們就放在客服啊就說Meta就說啊我們這邊呢非常有限所以不願意投入人力你這樣講得通嗎\n\n03:21.778 --> 03:37.244\n部長這樣講不通講不通那有什麼方式讓Meta來落地OK在Thread方面其實Thread上面的那個詐騙我們在之前納管之前我們就已經在有在巡檢有在通報他們他們也都一般來講都配合的狀況都不錯溝通還可以\n\n03:38.965 --> 03:56.407\n溝通還可以但是因為Thread它在今年3月以前它並不提供廣告那依照我們打造專訪我們只管廣告所以我們納管了那個FacebookLine還有Google因為它都有廣告但是Thread沒有廣告那3月它開始放廣告以後我們就開始進入這個程序要把它們納管所以要納管了\n\n03:56.747 --> 04:15.117\n但是我是說如果可以的話應該把Meta這些人也要求落地讓你溝通會比較方便不然的話有些署長次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號\n\n04:16.800 --> 04:31.474\n我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎\n\n04:32.840 --> 05:00.697\n是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是\n\n05:01.698 --> 05:27.109\nLINE的部分一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本期最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人\n\n05:27.749 --> 05:50.609\n身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對\n\n05:51.309 --> 06:08.071\n是沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示\n\n06:09.092 --> 06:30.846\n對沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛是不是希望這樣來就這三個部分嘛一個是外國的一個揭示然後一個的部分呢就是使用者的一個這一個造謠救者的一個機制然後另外一個部分呢就是有關於這個消保的權利保障好不好這個部分要多久給本席我們希望那個\n\n06:33.326 --> 06:40.896\n委員我們經常有那個聯絡再去跟委員報告在年底之前下禮拜我們先來聊一聊沒問題謝謝希望有一個具體的時間點沒問題拖太久問題會越多期待你謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.495,"end":7.963,"text":"謝主席 有請林部長來 林部長請"},{"start":14.049,"end":41.445,"text":"會員你好部長上次提到META有錯殺率太高的問題本席肯定你上任之後非常積極的追蹤跟META來進行溝通但是這個誠信原則所造成的衝擊還是越來越大也就是它自救會的成員從4000多人現在已經到了5000多人了那我就比較一下為什麼META會出現這麼高的錯殺率那你一看"},{"start":42.265,"end":68.601,"text":"LINE的部分的錯殺率很低LINE的部分它之前大規模因為詐騙的問題停了7.3萬7萬3千個但是它申訴案件很少跟委員報告其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺的案件所以曾經還有50幾個他們的用戶跑到他們大樓相對而言比較之下那關鍵在哪裡本席就稍微去跟他了解一下"},{"start":69.421,"end":91.543,"text":"就是說LINE的部分它其實在使用的部分它適用消保法它有一個定期化的契約記載事項所以導致LINE的時候不能隨便停權使用者它可能會有訴訟跟賠償的問題對不對問題就來了Meta沒有Meta沒有的部分好像說用LINE它有購買貼圖"},{"start":94.305,"end":114.119,"text":"可是問題是Meta的部分的過程當中因為流量一 它可以獲利使用者沒有獲利衝的流量它有獲利二 我們選舉的時候也會增加那個觸及率我們會買啊 怎麼會沒有買也有商業行為啊所以同樣的商業行為是不是也可以比照賴的方式來適用這個消保法"},{"start":114.699,"end":130.913,"text":"部長 是 這個我們去研究瞭解一下是不是 素杉署長跟委員報告就是這個在行政院的消保處有討論過目前這種平台的免費使用是不是適用消保法這個是還要再釐清已經有例子了嘛 署長"},{"start":132.133,"end":157.145,"text":"你現在的狀況我們就比較結果Meta的方式就用這種方式他就不能隨便亂做錯差他就會更加謹慎他的程式的設計對不對對使用者相對有保障已經有一個好方法部長這個要不要去好好研究一下是 我想我們署長的意思是說因為在Facebook上大部分使用者並沒有付錢給那個Facebook所以不能適用為那個消費者我們有付 怎麼會沒有付"},{"start":158.178,"end":176.286,"text":"我廣告的時候廣告上有付他就必須下廣告就有付啦但是如果說我是一個使用者我沒有付錢給那個Mapa然後我的那個被封鎖的話把他延伸出去嘛我們事實上也有付嘛所以說我們是有他有付的這個機制在嘛"},{"start":177.466,"end":200.678,"text":"如果是他有負的機制在的話就類似於這種商業行為嘛我請部長回去好好研究一下好不好好比照辦理嘛第二個部分呢最近有一個消息翠的部分啊台灣的流量啊是全球第一耶是對啊那過去以往我們要求他落地的時候啊他們就放在客服啊就說Meta就說啊我們這邊呢非常有限所以不願意投入人力你這樣講得通嗎"},{"start":201.778,"end":217.244,"text":"部長這樣講不通講不通那有什麼方式讓Meta來落地OK在Thread方面其實Thread上面的那個詐騙我們在之前納管之前我們就已經在有在巡檢有在通報他們他們也都一般來講都配合的狀況都不錯溝通還可以"},{"start":218.965,"end":236.407,"text":"溝通還可以但是因為Thread它在今年3月以前它並不提供廣告那依照我們打造專訪我們只管廣告所以我們納管了那個Facebook Line還有Google因為它都有廣告但是Thread沒有廣告那3月它開始放廣告以後我們就開始進入這個程序要把它們納管所以要納管了"},{"start":236.747,"end":255.117,"text":"但是我是說如果可以的話應該把Meta這些人也要求落地讓你溝通會比較方便不然的話有些署長 次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號"},{"start":256.8,"end":271.474,"text":"我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎"},{"start":272.84,"end":300.697,"text":"是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是"},{"start":301.698,"end":327.109,"text":"LINE的部分一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本期最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人"},{"start":327.749,"end":350.609,"text":"身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對"},{"start":351.309,"end":368.071,"text":"是 沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示"},{"start":369.092,"end":390.846,"text":"對 沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛 是不是希望這樣來就這三個部分嘛一個是外國的一個揭示然後一個的部分呢就是使用者的一個這一個造謠救者的一個機制然後另外一個部分呢就是有關於這個消保的權利保障好不好這個部分要多久給本席我們希望那個"},{"start":393.326,"end":400.896,"text":"委員我們經常有那個聯絡再去跟委員報告在年底之前下禮拜我們先來聊一聊沒問題謝謝希望有一個具體的時間點沒問題拖太久問題會越多期待你謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":921,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時13分）謝謝主席，我請林部長。"],["主席：林部長，請。"],["林部長宜敬：郭委員，你好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，上次提到Meta有錯殺率太高的問題，本席肯定你上任之後非常積極地追蹤、跟Meta溝通，但是違反誠信原則造成的衝擊還是愈來愈大，自救會成員現在已經從四千多人到五千多人了。我比較了一下為什麼Meta會出現這麼高的錯殺率，你看，LINE的錯殺率很低。LINE之前因為詐騙問題大規模地停權了7.3萬、7萬3,000個帳號，但是申訴案件很少欸！"],["林部長宜敬：跟委員報告，其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺案件，還曾經有五十幾個用戶跑到他們大樓。"],["郭委員國文：相對而言、比較之下嘛！關鍵在哪裡呢？本席稍微了解了一下，LINE在使用部分其實適用消保法，有定型化契約記載事項，導致LINE不能隨便停權使用者，因為可能有訴訟跟賠償問題，對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["郭委員國文：那問題就來啦！Meta沒有啊！雖然LINE有購買貼圖機制，但一、Meta在流量上可以獲利，使用者雖然沒有獲利，但是衝流量就有獲利；二、我們選舉的時候也會增加觸及率，因為我們會買啊！怎麼會沒有買？所以也有商業行為啊！同樣是商業行為，是不是也可以比照LINE的方式適用消保法，部長？"],["林部長宜敬：我們去研究、了解一下。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，這個在行政院消保處討論過，對於目前這種平臺免費使用的部分是不是適用消保法還要再釐清，我們也在持續釐清。"],["郭委員國文：已經有例子了嘛！署長，依照比較的結果，以Meta現在的狀況，用這種方式就不能隨便亂弄、錯殺，它就會更加謹慎地進行程式的設計啊！對不對？對使用者相對有保障嘛！已經有一個好方法，部長，要不要好好研究一下？"],["林部長宜敬：我想署長的意思是說在Facebook上，大部分使用者並沒有付錢給Facebook，所以不能適用消費者……"],["郭委員國文：我們有付啊！怎麼會沒有付？廣告的時候、選舉的時候……"],["林部長宜敬：廣告商有付，他就必須……"],["郭委員國文：下廣告就是有付啊！"],["林部長宜敬：但如果我是使用者、又沒有付錢給Meta，被封鎖的話……"],["郭委員國文：我知道，把它延伸出去嘛！我們事實上也有付嘛！所以有付費機制在嘛！如果有付費機制在，就屬於商業行為嘛！請部長回去以後好好研究一下好不好？比照辦理嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：好。"],["郭委員國文：第二個部分，最近有一個消息，在Threads的流量中，臺灣是全球第一欸！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["郭委員國文：以往我們要求他們落地的時候，它們都放在客服，Meta只說我們這邊的流量非常有限，所以不願意投入人力，這樣講得通嗎，部長？"],["林部長宜敬：這樣講不通。"],["郭委員國文：講不通啊！那有什麼方式讓Meta落地？"],["林部長宜敬：在Threads方面，其實針對Threads上的詐騙，我們在納管之前就已經巡檢並通報它們，一般來講，它們配合的狀況都不錯。"],["郭委員國文：溝通還可以啦！"],["林部長宜敬：溝通還可以。但是因為Threads在今年三月以前並不提供廣告，而依照打詐專法，我們只管廣告，所以我們納管了Facebook、LINE還有Google，因為他們都有廣告，而Threads沒有廣告。從三月它開始放廣告以後，我們就進入程序，要予以納管。"],["郭委員國文：好，Threads也要納管了。但我是說如果可以的話，應該要求Meta這些人也落地，這樣溝通會比較方便啦！不然的話，署長、次長還要跑到美國跟他們溝通，對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：沒錯。"],["郭委員國文：而且可以即時性地維護這些使用者的權利嘛！","另外一個部分，部長，你看得出來哪一個是假帳號嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：我看不出來。"],["郭委員國文：看不出來對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["郭委員國文：Meta不是一人一個帳號，其中有些小帳，這些小帳就可以任意用來帶風向、散播假消息、抹黑別人，而抹黑的成本是最低的啊！這沒有辦法管嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：在這方面，我們分兩部分來講，第一，我們現在要求Meta把那些跟詐騙集團有關的帳號利用AI的方式找出來，然後……"],["郭委員國文：打詐部分你們在努力，我知道。"],["林部長宜敬：另外，中長期來講，就如同委員講的，因為Meta並沒有做身分認證，造成我們不管是在……"],["郭委員國文：這是關鍵嘛！重點是身分嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["郭委員國文：身分問題來了，但有一個方式可以處理啦！一樣以LINE為例子，LINE就強綁手機號碼，強綁手機號碼就可以建立造謠究責機制啊！本席最近就成為受害者啊！烏山頭水庫相關爭議就是這種狀況嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：沒錯。"],["郭委員國文：之前也有更多狀況都是如此嘛！所以你要如何把這些扣連起來？這是第一個要揭露的，就是如何究責。要求綁手機，透過手機可以追蹤到人、身分，就可以究責。這是第一點。","第二個部分，這次中國也來湊熱鬧！因為透過登入帳號也發現「+86」，「+86」就是中國帳號假冒臺灣人的帳號，是不是發文國家也應該予以揭露才對？"],["林部長宜敬：沒錯，事實上這就是我們希望努力的方向，除了有技術問題，也有法規問題，另外還涉及商業面，我們希望有這個機制。先跟委員報告，我們跟LINE之間已經有這個機制，如果加你的帳號是國外來的，軟體上面就會出現警示。"],["郭委員國文：對、對、對，沒有錯。你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛，可不可以？就這三個部分嘛，一個部分是外國的揭示，然後一個部分就是使用者造謠究責的機制，然後另外一個部分就是有關於消保的權利保障，好不好？"],["林部長宜敬：好。"],["郭委員國文：這個部分要多久給本席？"],["林部長宜敬：委員，我們經常有聯絡，我再去跟委員報告，年底之前一定會報告。"],["郭委員國文：下禮拜我們先來聊一聊。"],["林部長宜敬：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：希望有一個具體的時間點。"],["林部長宜敬：好，沒問題、沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：不然的話，拖太久，問題會越多。"],["林部長宜敬：當然。"],["郭委員國文：好，期待你，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，接下來請羅美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}}