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211.762, \"text\": \"簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 187.252, \"end\": 187.612, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"辨\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 187.612, \"end\": 187.752, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 187.752, \"end\": 187.852, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 187.852, \"end\": 188.013, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 188.013, \"end\": 188.113, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 188.113, \"end\": 188.173, \"score\": 0.533}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 188.173, \"end\": 188.313, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 188.313, \"end\": 188.413, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 188.413, \"end\": 188.633, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"併\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 188.633, \"end\": 188.973, 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\"text\": \"我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 392.386, \"end\": 392.726, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 392.726, \"end\": 393.206, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 393.206, \"end\": 393.447, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 393.447, \"end\": 393.867, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 393.867, \"end\": 394.147, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 394.147, \"end\": 394.307, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 394.307, \"end\": 394.727, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 394.727, \"end\": 395.268, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 395.268, \"end\": 395.328, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 395.328, \"end\": 395.508, \"score\": 0.984}, 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0.889}, {\"word\": \"靜\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 409.375, \"end\": 409.575, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 409.575, \"end\": 409.715, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 409.715, \"end\": 409.935, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 409.935, \"end\": 410.035, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 410.035, \"end\": 410.135, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 410.135, \"end\": 410.215, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 410.215, \"end\": 410.515, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 410.515, \"end\": 410.695, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 410.695, \"end\": 410.876, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 410.876, \"end\": 411.076, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 411.076, \"end\": 411.316, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 411.316, \"end\": 412.777, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 412.777, \"end\": 412.917, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 412.917, \"end\": 412.997, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 412.997, \"end\": 413.077, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 413.077, \"end\": 413.257, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 413.257, \"end\": 413.417, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 413.417, \"end\": 413.437, \"score\": 0.982}]}, {\"start\": 414.118, \"end\": 415.299, \"text\": \"你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 414.118, \"end\": 414.238, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 414.238, \"end\": 414.498, \"score\": 0.561}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 414.498, \"end\": 414.618, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 414.618, \"end\": 414.718, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 414.718, \"end\": 414.818, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 414.818, \"end\": 414.958, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 414.958, \"end\": 415.059, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 415.059, \"end\": 415.079, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 415.079, \"end\": 415.099, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 415.099, \"end\": 415.119, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 415.119, \"end\": 415.279, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 415.279, \"end\": 415.299, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 432.839, \"end\": 451.342, \"text\": \"地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 432.839, \"end\": 432.939, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 432.939, \"end\": 433.099, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 433.099, \"end\": 433.22, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 433.22, \"end\": 433.42, \"score\": 0.787}, 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\"start\": 448.399, \"end\": 448.519, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 448.519, \"end\": 448.619, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 448.619, \"end\": 448.779, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 448.779, \"end\": 449.3, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 449.3, \"end\": 449.7, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 449.7, \"end\": 449.941, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 449.941, \"end\": 450.141, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 450.141, \"end\": 450.301, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 450.301, \"end\": 450.421, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"揭\", \"start\": 450.421, \"end\": 450.561, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"露\", \"start\": 450.561, \"end\": 450.681, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 450.681, \"end\": 451.142, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 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00:00:05,879\n謝謝主席洪部長有請好洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,877 --> 00:00:36,733\n副總管不好意思耽誤大家休息時間我們今天在職業安全衛生法修法裡面本系列有提相關的案子是在第49條提了一個修正案那這個修正案的用意是這樣的我們借用質詢的時間預先做一下討論在逐條的時候我們也希望勞動部可以用一個更開放的心態來處理\n\n3\n00:00:37,934 --> 00:01:04,571\n這目前我們規定要公佈僱主姓名跟名稱啦就是說違反勞動相關法令你要公視於眾嘛你這樣才會有嚇阻力對不對有勞動基準法80條之一勞退條例53條之一勞工職災保險及保護法100條性別工作平等法38條等等等等其實有非常多條那現在實際上的狀況是勞動部你有一個統一的平台嘛就是各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態你其實有一個統一的平台\n\n4\n00:01:05,291 --> 00:01:25,669\n這個平台上面其實蠻完整的寫得非常清楚包含各縣、市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等的選項而且很好查我希望要更完整你希望要更完整非常好那我們今天就來針對這個事情來做一下討論齁這個平台是完整的操作性也佳但部長你知不知道各地方政府在執行的時候狀況是什麼呃...\n\n5\n00:01:31,431 --> 00:01:58,892\n他們其實有時候登上來的時間會延遲對來我就一張一張給你看好這是你勞動部的嘛好其實查得非常清楚而且部長講要更清楚這本席給予肯定但各地方政府的就沒有像中央的這麼清楚好我們今天把話講唉唷不聽話這個相關檔案為什麼不能用好我們就一張一張看好這是苗栗的苗栗的台北的然後再往下台南的再看\n\n6\n00:02:00,083 --> 00:02:28,052\n就這幾個地方政府的樣態我在這邊跟部長說明一下地方大概就是我把一整包相關的資料弄成一個Excel檔或一個PDF上傳到網路上就了事了對不對這個不管是在操作易達性資訊完整性即時性剛剛部長提到的即時性以及各網站的點閱率來講一定是中央的效果好過各地的效果各地變成什麼我雖然我有進公佈的義務但恐怕就途距形式這我想部長也清楚以前帶過NGO對不對\n\n7\n00:02:29,472 --> 00:02:46,565\n以前透明足跡的網站就很棒啊很多立法委員曾經都拿來當問證參考為什麼它是一個單一的平台然後它有一定的知名度大家會去查詢會去使用那個資料它自然而然公佈相關的裁罰它才會對於違法的企業產生嚇阻跟威嚇的效果部長同意我這樣說嗎\n\n8\n00:02:47,566 --> 00:03:06,052\n當然這是我們當初設計透明主機的原意對嘛所以部長你也有這樣子的一個經驗所以你會希望這樣子的平台優化那我希望平台的優化可以乾脆就一步到位這一點我相信部長應該是有能力也有經驗可以把它做得更好但問題是我們現在需要的是什麼我們希望的是他乾脆\n\n9\n00:03:07,252 --> 00:03:31,762\n簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛\n\n10\n00:03:32,262 --> 00:03:51,496\n這樣是不是全國就是一個平台然後把所有資料非常詳細完成而且公布在您所謂的功能較好內容較多的網站上然後所有要監督勞動相關的或者是求職者要去看的時候我給予他更好的義達性這樣子是不是嚇阻的效果跟網站的知名度宣傳的管道是不是都會比較方便跟委員說明第一個\n\n11\n00:03:56,721 --> 00:04:18,317\n因為這一次的修法比較是針對治安法因為近期的幾個勞動法規的修法其實都有在條文裡面放入一個資訊公開必須公開這樣的條文那這一次我們在治安法裡面把它放進來讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚那第二個是我們會努力的把至少勞動部我們自己的相關的裁罰紀錄的平台跟這個\n\n12\n00:04:20,699 --> 00:04:34,495\n這個展示就是說揭露的平台我們希望能夠做得更好那我們近期其實也在跟地方政府討論比方說我們確實現在也在我們的調評師也在跟地方政府討論其實有些勞動條他們有時候上傳的速度比較慢\n\n13\n00:04:35,376 --> 00:04:53,351\n會delay有時候大家查的時候就是可能一兩個月就查不到或者是什麼狀況那我們現在也希望能夠跟他說該一定的時間就要能夠上傳避免那個即時性不告的報告我現在意思就是說我們藉由這次修法因為我的條文有講嘛就是各地方政府報到中央嘛然後我統一在你中央的平台上\n\n14\n00:04:54,111 --> 00:05:10,902\n中央我們會盡力做好可是地方政府要怎麼做說實話他一樣要報嘛他一樣報給你這個我覺得是不是要跟地方政府或者是說我現在我之所以會提這樣修法要對地方政府的監督我與其去期待各個縣市政府的縣市議會或是政府自己突然間腦袋靈光起來然後突然關注到這件小事\n\n15\n00:05:11,582 --> 00:05:29,120\n不如中央直接法規上遊戲規則做調整把那個行政的程序簡化嘛也就是說我地方既然本來就要報給中央我是不是就一併在平台的時候一併做上傳我以後是不是就只要一個平台就好地方的平台不用管他嘛就是中央平台全部看大家的效果也會比較好啊我把這個東西寫在法條裡面這樣子喔\n\n16\n00:05:31,582 --> 00:05:55,823\n第一個我不認為這是小事啦我認為這是大事啦那我們認為這件事情會對於企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果那第二個我們願意來跟地方政府來溝通啦可是我的確我沒有辦法全然的去控制地方政府的界面該怎麼設計但是我們會把中央的界面設計好我認為中央現在是最完整而且做得最好我們把中央的界面給設計好\n\n17\n00:05:56,664 --> 00:06:22,372\n但是我們願意來跟地方政府討論是不是地方的介面應該要符合哪些原則包括他上傳的部分我今天談的就是這件事與其去期待各地方堅定標準然後跌床架屋嘛是不是以後就是把作業流程單純化也就是我地方全部收全部給你在你的完整平台公佈我地方中央都是給同一個網址通通看這個平台它的效果才會好我的意思是這樣那委員您是說地方政府接下來不用做揭露囉\n\n18\n00:06:23,473 --> 00:06:30,085\n報給你你來揭露把它變成一套完整中央決定會揭露可是是不是地方政府就不必要去做揭露這件事情我\n\n19\n00:06:32,386 --> 00:06:53,437\n我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了\n\n20\n00:06:54,118 --> 00:06:55,299\n你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣\n\n21\n00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:31,342\n地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好\n\n22\n00:07:32,003 --> 00:07:55,766\n但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任或沒有必要他去做揭露我不會這樣說可是你回想一下你在NGO的時候如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站它的效果會不會這麼好那我會去挑最好的我會去挑最好的來看是嘛可是我不會說其他就沒有責任揭露如果這個地方能夠統合一起把這個平台做到最好這個才是最有效率的這個這個事情我們中央會來做我們中央會做可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任\n\n23\n00:07:56,767 --> 00:08:11,898\n地方政府通報的數據精準性什麼要加強這當然是他的責任但是我們在談的是政策效果不要跌窗架屋不要浪費多餘的時間跟人力強化政策的品質嘛方向是這樣但沒關係因為今天我們不要占用大家休息時間我們主條的時候再來好好討論好不好好辛苦謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t5879\t謝謝主席 洪部長有請好 洪部長\n16877\t36733\t副總管 不好意思耽誤大家休息時間我們今天在職業安全衛生法修法裡面本系列有提相關的案子是在第49條提了一個修正案那這個修正案的用意是這樣的我們借用質詢的時間預先做一下討論在逐條的時候我們也希望勞動部可以用一個更開放的心態來處理\n37934\t64571\t這目前我們規定要公佈僱主姓名跟名稱啦就是說違反勞動相關法令你要公視於眾嘛你這樣才會有嚇阻力對不對有勞動基準法80條之一勞退條例53條之一勞工職災保險及保護法100條性別工作平等法38條等等等等其實有非常多條那現在實際上的狀況是勞動部你有一個統一的平台嘛就是各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態你其實有一個統一的平台\n65291\t85669\t這個平台上面其實蠻完整的 寫得非常清楚包含各縣、市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等的選項 而且很好查我希望要更完整你希望要更完整 非常好那我們今天就來針對這個事情來做一下討論齁這個平台是完整的操作性也佳但部長你知不知道各地方政府在執行的時候狀況是什麼呃...\n91431\t118892\t他們其實有時候登上來的時間會延遲對 來 我就一張一張給你看好 這是你勞動部的嘛好 其實查得非常清楚 而且部長講要更清楚這本席給予肯定但各地方政府的就沒有像中央的這麼清楚好 我們今天把話講 唉唷 不聽話這個相關檔案 為什麼不能用好 我們就一張一張看 好 這是苗栗的苗栗的 台北的 然後再往下台南的 再看\n120083\t148052\t就這幾個地方政府的樣態我在這邊跟部長說明一下地方大概就是我把一整包相關的資料弄成一個Excel檔或一個PDF上傳到網路上就了事了對不對這個不管是在操作易達性資訊完整性即時性剛剛部長提到的即時性以及各網站的點閱率來講一定是中央的效果好過各地的效果各地變成什麼我雖然我有進公佈的義務但恐怕就途距形式這我想部長也清楚以前帶過NGO對不對\n149472\t166565\t以前透明足跡的網站就很棒啊很多立法委員曾經都拿來當問證參考 為什麼它是一個單一的平台然後它有一定的知名度大家會去查詢 會去使用那個資料它自然而然公佈相關的裁罰它才會對於違法的企業產生嚇阻跟威嚇的效果部長同意我這樣說嗎\n167566\t186052\t當然這是我們當初設計透明主機的原意對嘛 所以部長你也有這樣子的一個經驗所以你會希望這樣子的平台優化那我希望平台的優化可以乾脆就一步到位這一點我相信部長應該是有能力也有經驗可以把它做得更好但問題是我們現在需要的是什麼我們希望的是他乾脆\n187252\t211762\t簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛\n212262\t231496\t這樣是不是全國就是一個平台 然後把所有資料非常詳細完成而且公布在您所謂的 功能較好 內容較多的網站上然後所有要監督勞動相關的 或者是求職者要去看的時候我給予他更好的義達性 這樣子是不是嚇阻的效果跟網站的知名度 宣傳的管道 是不是都會比較方便跟委員說明 第一個\n236721\t258317\t因為這一次的修法比較是針對治安法因為近期的幾個勞動法規的修法其實都有在條文裡面放入一個資訊公開必須公開這樣的條文那這一次我們在治安法裡面把它放進來讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚那第二個是我們會努力的把至少勞動部我們自己的相關的裁罰紀錄的平台跟這個\n260699\t274495\t這個展示就是說揭露的平台我們希望能夠做得更好那我們近期其實也在跟地方政府討論比方說我們確實現在也在我們的調評師也在跟地方政府討論其實有些勞動條他們有時候上傳的速度比較慢\n275376\t293351\t會delay有時候大家查的時候就是可能一兩個月就查不到或者是什麼狀況那我們現在也希望能夠跟他說該一定的時間就要能夠上傳避免那個即時性不告的報告我現在意思就是說我們藉由這次修法因為我的條文有講嘛就是各地方政府報到中央嘛然後我統一在你中央的平台上\n294111\t310902\t中央我們會盡力做好 可是地方政府要怎麼做 說實話他一樣要報嘛 他一樣報給你這個我覺得是不是要跟地方政府或者是說我現在 我之所以會提這樣修法要對地方政府的監督我與其去期待各個縣市政府的縣市議會或是政府自己突然間腦袋靈光起來然後突然關注到這件小事\n311582\t329120\t不如中央直接法規上遊戲規則做調整把那個行政的程序簡化嘛也就是說我地方既然本來就要報給中央我是不是就一併在平台的時候一併做上傳我以後是不是就只要一個平台就好地方的平台不用管他嘛就是中央平台全部看大家的效果也會比較好啊我把這個東西寫在法條裡面這樣子喔\n331582\t355823\t第一個 我不認為這是小事啦 我認為這是大事啦那我們認為這件事情會對於企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果那第二個 我們願意來跟地方政府來溝通啦可是我的確 我沒有辦法全然的去控制地方政府的界面該怎麼設計但是我們會把中央的界面設計好我認為中央現在是最完整 而且做得最好我們把中央的界面給設計好\n356664\t382372\t但是我們願意來跟地方政府討論是不是地方的介面應該要符合哪些原則包括他上傳的部分我今天談的就是這件事與其去期待各地方堅定標準然後跌床架屋嘛是不是以後就是把作業流程單純化也就是我地方全部收全部給你在你的完整平台公佈我地方中央都是給同一個網址通通看這個平台它的效果才會好 我的意思是這樣那委員您是說地方政府接下來不用做揭露囉\n383473\t390085\t報給你你來揭露把它變成一套完整中央決定會揭露可是是不是地方政府就不必要去做揭露這件事情我\n392386\t413437\t我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了\n414118\t415299\t你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣\n432839\t451342\t地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好\n452003\t475766\t但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任或沒有必要他去做揭露 我不會這樣說可是你回想一下你在NGO的時候如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站它的效果會不會這麼好那我會去挑最好的 我會去挑最好的來看是嘛 可是我不會說其他就沒有責任揭露如果這個地方能夠統合 一起把這個平台做到最好這個才是最有效率的這個這個事情我們中央會來做我們中央會做 可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任\n476767\t491898\t地方政府通報的數據精準性什麼 要加強這當然是他的責任但是我們在談的是政策效果不要跌窗架屋 不要浪費多餘的時間跟人力強化政策的品質嘛 方向是這樣但沒關係 因為今天我們不要占用大家休息時間我們主條的時候再來好好討論 好不好好 辛苦 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 洪部長有請好 洪部長\n副總管 不好意思耽誤大家休息時間我們今天在職業安全衛生法修法裡面本系列有提相關的案子是在第49條提了一個修正案那這個修正案的用意是這樣的我們借用質詢的時間預先做一下討論在逐條的時候我們也希望勞動部可以用一個更開放的心態來處理\n這目前我們規定要公佈僱主姓名跟名稱啦就是說違反勞動相關法令你要公視於眾嘛你這樣才會有嚇阻力對不對有勞動基準法80條之一勞退條例53條之一勞工職災保險及保護法100條性別工作平等法38條等等等等其實有非常多條那現在實際上的狀況是勞動部你有一個統一的平台嘛就是各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態你其實有一個統一的平台\n這個平台上面其實蠻完整的 寫得非常清楚包含各縣、市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等的選項 而且很好查我希望要更完整你希望要更完整 非常好那我們今天就來針對這個事情來做一下討論齁這個平台是完整的操作性也佳但部長你知不知道各地方政府在執行的時候狀況是什麼呃...\n他們其實有時候登上來的時間會延遲對 來 我就一張一張給你看好 這是你勞動部的嘛好 其實查得非常清楚 而且部長講要更清楚這本席給予肯定但各地方政府的就沒有像中央的這麼清楚好 我們今天把話講 唉唷 不聽話這個相關檔案 為什麼不能用好 我們就一張一張看 好 這是苗栗的苗栗的 台北的 然後再往下台南的 再看\n就這幾個地方政府的樣態我在這邊跟部長說明一下地方大概就是我把一整包相關的資料弄成一個Excel檔或一個PDF上傳到網路上就了事了對不對這個不管是在操作易達性資訊完整性即時性剛剛部長提到的即時性以及各網站的點閱率來講一定是中央的效果好過各地的效果各地變成什麼我雖然我有進公佈的義務但恐怕就途距形式這我想部長也清楚以前帶過NGO對不對\n以前透明足跡的網站就很棒啊很多立法委員曾經都拿來當問證參考 為什麼它是一個單一的平台然後它有一定的知名度大家會去查詢 會去使用那個資料它自然而然公佈相關的裁罰它才會對於違法的企業產生嚇阻跟威嚇的效果部長同意我這樣說嗎\n當然這是我們當初設計透明主機的原意對嘛 所以部長你也有這樣子的一個經驗所以你會希望這樣子的平台優化那我希望平台的優化可以乾脆就一步到位這一點我相信部長應該是有能力也有經驗可以把它做得更好但問題是我們現在需要的是什麼我們希望的是他乾脆\n簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛\n這樣是不是全國就是一個平台 然後把所有資料非常詳細完成而且公布在您所謂的 功能較好 內容較多的網站上然後所有要監督勞動相關的 或者是求職者要去看的時候我給予他更好的義達性 這樣子是不是嚇阻的效果跟網站的知名度 宣傳的管道 是不是都會比較方便跟委員說明 第一個\n因為這一次的修法比較是針對治安法因為近期的幾個勞動法規的修法其實都有在條文裡面放入一個資訊公開必須公開這樣的條文那這一次我們在治安法裡面把它放進來讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚那第二個是我們會努力的把至少勞動部我們自己的相關的裁罰紀錄的平台跟這個\n這個展示就是說揭露的平台我們希望能夠做得更好那我們近期其實也在跟地方政府討論比方說我們確實現在也在我們的調評師也在跟地方政府討論其實有些勞動條他們有時候上傳的速度比較慢\n會delay有時候大家查的時候就是可能一兩個月就查不到或者是什麼狀況那我們現在也希望能夠跟他說該一定的時間就要能夠上傳避免那個即時性不告的報告我現在意思就是說我們藉由這次修法因為我的條文有講嘛就是各地方政府報到中央嘛然後我統一在你中央的平台上\n中央我們會盡力做好 可是地方政府要怎麼做 說實話他一樣要報嘛 他一樣報給你這個我覺得是不是要跟地方政府或者是說我現在 我之所以會提這樣修法要對地方政府的監督我與其去期待各個縣市政府的縣市議會或是政府自己突然間腦袋靈光起來然後突然關注到這件小事\n不如中央直接法規上遊戲規則做調整把那個行政的程序簡化嘛也就是說我地方既然本來就要報給中央我是不是就一併在平台的時候一併做上傳我以後是不是就只要一個平台就好地方的平台不用管他嘛就是中央平台全部看大家的效果也會比較好啊我把這個東西寫在法條裡面這樣子喔\n第一個 我不認為這是小事啦 我認為這是大事啦那我們認為這件事情會對於企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果那第二個 我們願意來跟地方政府來溝通啦可是我的確 我沒有辦法全然的去控制地方政府的界面該怎麼設計但是我們會把中央的界面設計好我認為中央現在是最完整 而且做得最好我們把中央的界面給設計好\n但是我們願意來跟地方政府討論是不是地方的介面應該要符合哪些原則包括他上傳的部分我今天談的就是這件事與其去期待各地方堅定標準然後跌床架屋嘛是不是以後就是把作業流程單純化也就是我地方全部收全部給你在你的完整平台公佈我地方中央都是給同一個網址通通看這個平台它的效果才會好 我的意思是這樣那委員您是說地方政府接下來不用做揭露囉\n報給你你來揭露把它變成一套完整中央決定會揭露可是是不是地方政府就不必要去做揭露這件事情我\n我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了\n你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣\n地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好\n但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任或沒有必要他去做揭露 我不會這樣說可是你回想一下你在NGO的時候如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站它的效果會不會這麼好那我會去挑最好的 我會去挑最好的來看是嘛 可是我不會說其他就沒有責任揭露如果這個地方能夠統合 一起把這個平台做到最好這個才是最有效率的這個這個事情我們中央會來做我們中央會做 可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任\n地方政府通報的數據精準性什麼 要加強這當然是他的責任但是我們在談的是政策效果不要跌窗架屋 不要浪費多餘的時間跟人力強化政策的品質嘛 方向是這樣但沒關係 因為今天我們不要占用大家休息時間我們主條的時候再來好好討論 好不好好 辛苦 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:05.879\n謝謝主席洪部長有請好洪部長\n\n00:16.877 --> 00:36.733\n副總管不好意思耽誤大家休息時間我們今天在職業安全衛生法修法裡面本系列有提相關的案子是在第49條提了一個修正案那這個修正案的用意是這樣的我們借用質詢的時間預先做一下討論在逐條的時候我們也希望勞動部可以用一個更開放的心態來處理\n\n00:37.934 --> 01:04.571\n這目前我們規定要公佈僱主姓名跟名稱啦就是說違反勞動相關法令你要公視於眾嘛你這樣才會有嚇阻力對不對有勞動基準法80條之一勞退條例53條之一勞工職災保險及保護法100條性別工作平等法38條等等等等其實有非常多條那現在實際上的狀況是勞動部你有一個統一的平台嘛就是各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態你其實有一個統一的平台\n\n01:05.291 --> 01:25.669\n這個平台上面其實蠻完整的寫得非常清楚包含各縣、市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等的選項而且很好查我希望要更完整你希望要更完整非常好那我們今天就來針對這個事情來做一下討論齁這個平台是完整的操作性也佳但部長你知不知道各地方政府在執行的時候狀況是什麼呃...\n\n01:31.431 --> 01:58.892\n他們其實有時候登上來的時間會延遲對來我就一張一張給你看好這是你勞動部的嘛好其實查得非常清楚而且部長講要更清楚這本席給予肯定但各地方政府的就沒有像中央的這麼清楚好我們今天把話講唉唷不聽話這個相關檔案為什麼不能用好我們就一張一張看好這是苗栗的苗栗的台北的然後再往下台南的再看\n\n02:00.083 --> 02:28.052\n就這幾個地方政府的樣態我在這邊跟部長說明一下地方大概就是我把一整包相關的資料弄成一個Excel檔或一個PDF上傳到網路上就了事了對不對這個不管是在操作易達性資訊完整性即時性剛剛部長提到的即時性以及各網站的點閱率來講一定是中央的效果好過各地的效果各地變成什麼我雖然我有進公佈的義務但恐怕就途距形式這我想部長也清楚以前帶過NGO對不對\n\n02:29.472 --> 02:46.565\n以前透明足跡的網站就很棒啊很多立法委員曾經都拿來當問證參考為什麼它是一個單一的平台然後它有一定的知名度大家會去查詢會去使用那個資料它自然而然公佈相關的裁罰它才會對於違法的企業產生嚇阻跟威嚇的效果部長同意我這樣說嗎\n\n02:47.566 --> 03:06.052\n當然這是我們當初設計透明主機的原意對嘛所以部長你也有這樣子的一個經驗所以你會希望這樣子的平台優化那我希望平台的優化可以乾脆就一步到位這一點我相信部長應該是有能力也有經驗可以把它做得更好但問題是我們現在需要的是什麼我們希望的是他乾脆\n\n03:07.252 --> 03:31.762\n簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛\n\n03:32.262 --> 03:51.496\n這樣是不是全國就是一個平台然後把所有資料非常詳細完成而且公布在您所謂的功能較好內容較多的網站上然後所有要監督勞動相關的或者是求職者要去看的時候我給予他更好的義達性這樣子是不是嚇阻的效果跟網站的知名度宣傳的管道是不是都會比較方便跟委員說明第一個\n\n03:56.721 --> 04:18.317\n因為這一次的修法比較是針對治安法因為近期的幾個勞動法規的修法其實都有在條文裡面放入一個資訊公開必須公開這樣的條文那這一次我們在治安法裡面把它放進來讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚那第二個是我們會努力的把至少勞動部我們自己的相關的裁罰紀錄的平台跟這個\n\n04:20.699 --> 04:34.495\n這個展示就是說揭露的平台我們希望能夠做得更好那我們近期其實也在跟地方政府討論比方說我們確實現在也在我們的調評師也在跟地方政府討論其實有些勞動條他們有時候上傳的速度比較慢\n\n04:35.376 --> 04:53.351\n會delay有時候大家查的時候就是可能一兩個月就查不到或者是什麼狀況那我們現在也希望能夠跟他說該一定的時間就要能夠上傳避免那個即時性不告的報告我現在意思就是說我們藉由這次修法因為我的條文有講嘛就是各地方政府報到中央嘛然後我統一在你中央的平台上\n\n04:54.111 --> 05:10.902\n中央我們會盡力做好可是地方政府要怎麼做說實話他一樣要報嘛他一樣報給你這個我覺得是不是要跟地方政府或者是說我現在我之所以會提這樣修法要對地方政府的監督我與其去期待各個縣市政府的縣市議會或是政府自己突然間腦袋靈光起來然後突然關注到這件小事\n\n05:11.582 --> 05:29.120\n不如中央直接法規上遊戲規則做調整把那個行政的程序簡化嘛也就是說我地方既然本來就要報給中央我是不是就一併在平台的時候一併做上傳我以後是不是就只要一個平台就好地方的平台不用管他嘛就是中央平台全部看大家的效果也會比較好啊我把這個東西寫在法條裡面這樣子喔\n\n05:31.582 --> 05:55.823\n第一個我不認為這是小事啦我認為這是大事啦那我們認為這件事情會對於企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果那第二個我們願意來跟地方政府來溝通啦可是我的確我沒有辦法全然的去控制地方政府的界面該怎麼設計但是我們會把中央的界面設計好我認為中央現在是最完整而且做得最好我們把中央的界面給設計好\n\n05:56.664 --> 06:22.372\n但是我們願意來跟地方政府討論是不是地方的介面應該要符合哪些原則包括他上傳的部分我今天談的就是這件事與其去期待各地方堅定標準然後跌床架屋嘛是不是以後就是把作業流程單純化也就是我地方全部收全部給你在你的完整平台公佈我地方中央都是給同一個網址通通看這個平台它的效果才會好我的意思是這樣那委員您是說地方政府接下來不用做揭露囉\n\n06:23.473 --> 06:30.085\n報給你你來揭露把它變成一套完整中央決定會揭露可是是不是地方政府就不必要去做揭露這件事情我\n\n06:32.386 --> 06:53.437\n我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了\n\n06:54.118 --> 06:55.299\n你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣\n\n07:12.839 --> 07:31.342\n地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好\n\n07:32.003 --> 07:55.766\n但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任或沒有必要他去做揭露我不會這樣說可是你回想一下你在NGO的時候如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站它的效果會不會這麼好那我會去挑最好的我會去挑最好的來看是嘛可是我不會說其他就沒有責任揭露如果這個地方能夠統合一起把這個平台做到最好這個才是最有效率的這個這個事情我們中央會來做我們中央會做可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任\n\n07:56.767 --> 08:11.898\n地方政府通報的數據精準性什麼要加強這當然是他的責任但是我們在談的是政策效果不要跌窗架屋不要浪費多餘的時間跟人力強化政策的品質嘛方向是這樣但沒關係因為今天我們不要占用大家休息時間我們主條的時候再來好好討論好不好好辛苦謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":5.879,"text":"謝謝主席 洪部長有請好 洪部長"},{"start":16.877,"end":36.733,"text":"副總管 不好意思耽誤大家休息時間我們今天在職業安全衛生法修法裡面本系列有提相關的案子是在第49條提了一個修正案那這個修正案的用意是這樣的我們借用質詢的時間預先做一下討論在逐條的時候我們也希望勞動部可以用一個更開放的心態來處理"},{"start":37.934,"end":64.571,"text":"這目前我們規定要公佈僱主姓名跟名稱啦就是說違反勞動相關法令你要公視於眾嘛你這樣才會有嚇阻力對不對有勞動基準法80條之一勞退條例53條之一勞工職災保險及保護法100條性別工作平等法38條等等等等其實有非常多條那現在實際上的狀況是勞動部你有一個統一的平台嘛就是各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態你其實有一個統一的平台"},{"start":65.291,"end":85.669,"text":"這個平台上面其實蠻完整的 寫得非常清楚包含各縣、市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等的選項 而且很好查我希望要更完整你希望要更完整 非常好那我們今天就來針對這個事情來做一下討論齁這個平台是完整的操作性也佳但部長你知不知道各地方政府在執行的時候狀況是什麼呃..."},{"start":91.431,"end":118.892,"text":"他們其實有時候登上來的時間會延遲對 來 我就一張一張給你看好 這是你勞動部的嘛好 其實查得非常清楚 而且部長講要更清楚這本席給予肯定但各地方政府的就沒有像中央的這麼清楚好 我們今天把話講 唉唷 不聽話這個相關檔案 為什麼不能用好 我們就一張一張看 好 這是苗栗的苗栗的 台北的 然後再往下台南的 再看"},{"start":120.083,"end":148.052,"text":"就這幾個地方政府的樣態我在這邊跟部長說明一下地方大概就是我把一整包相關的資料弄成一個Excel檔或一個PDF上傳到網路上就了事了對不對這個不管是在操作易達性資訊完整性即時性剛剛部長提到的即時性以及各網站的點閱率來講一定是中央的效果好過各地的效果各地變成什麼我雖然我有進公佈的義務但恐怕就途距形式這我想部長也清楚以前帶過NGO對不對"},{"start":149.472,"end":166.565,"text":"以前透明足跡的網站就很棒啊很多立法委員曾經都拿來當問證參考 為什麼它是一個單一的平台然後它有一定的知名度大家會去查詢 會去使用那個資料它自然而然公佈相關的裁罰它才會對於違法的企業產生嚇阻跟威嚇的效果部長同意我這樣說嗎"},{"start":167.566,"end":186.052,"text":"當然這是我們當初設計透明主機的原意對嘛 所以部長你也有這樣子的一個經驗所以你會希望這樣子的平台優化那我希望平台的優化可以乾脆就一步到位這一點我相信部長應該是有能力也有經驗可以把它做得更好但問題是我們現在需要的是什麼我們希望的是他乾脆"},{"start":187.252,"end":211.762,"text":"簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛"},{"start":212.262,"end":231.496,"text":"這樣是不是全國就是一個平台 然後把所有資料非常詳細完成而且公布在您所謂的 功能較好 內容較多的網站上然後所有要監督勞動相關的 或者是求職者要去看的時候我給予他更好的義達性 這樣子是不是嚇阻的效果跟網站的知名度 宣傳的管道 是不是都會比較方便跟委員說明 第一個"},{"start":236.721,"end":258.317,"text":"因為這一次的修法比較是針對治安法因為近期的幾個勞動法規的修法其實都有在條文裡面放入一個資訊公開必須公開這樣的條文那這一次我們在治安法裡面把它放進來讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚那第二個是我們會努力的把至少勞動部我們自己的相關的裁罰紀錄的平台跟這個"},{"start":260.699,"end":274.495,"text":"這個展示就是說揭露的平台我們希望能夠做得更好那我們近期其實也在跟地方政府討論比方說我們確實現在也在我們的調評師也在跟地方政府討論其實有些勞動條他們有時候上傳的速度比較慢"},{"start":275.376,"end":293.351,"text":"會delay有時候大家查的時候就是可能一兩個月就查不到或者是什麼狀況那我們現在也希望能夠跟他說該一定的時間就要能夠上傳避免那個即時性不告的報告我現在意思就是說我們藉由這次修法因為我的條文有講嘛就是各地方政府報到中央嘛然後我統一在你中央的平台上"},{"start":294.111,"end":310.902,"text":"中央我們會盡力做好 可是地方政府要怎麼做 說實話他一樣要報嘛 他一樣報給你這個我覺得是不是要跟地方政府或者是說我現在 我之所以會提這樣修法要對地方政府的監督我與其去期待各個縣市政府的縣市議會或是政府自己突然間腦袋靈光起來然後突然關注到這件小事"},{"start":311.582,"end":329.12,"text":"不如中央直接法規上遊戲規則做調整把那個行政的程序簡化嘛也就是說我地方既然本來就要報給中央我是不是就一併在平台的時候一併做上傳我以後是不是就只要一個平台就好地方的平台不用管他嘛就是中央平台全部看大家的效果也會比較好啊我把這個東西寫在法條裡面這樣子喔"},{"start":331.582,"end":355.823,"text":"第一個 我不認為這是小事啦 我認為這是大事啦那我們認為這件事情會對於企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果那第二個 我們願意來跟地方政府來溝通啦可是我的確 我沒有辦法全然的去控制地方政府的界面該怎麼設計但是我們會把中央的界面設計好我認為中央現在是最完整 而且做得最好我們把中央的界面給設計好"},{"start":356.664,"end":382.372,"text":"但是我們願意來跟地方政府討論是不是地方的介面應該要符合哪些原則包括他上傳的部分我今天談的就是這件事與其去期待各地方堅定標準然後跌床架屋嘛是不是以後就是把作業流程單純化也就是我地方全部收全部給你在你的完整平台公佈我地方中央都是給同一個網址通通看這個平台它的效果才會好 我的意思是這樣那委員您是說地方政府接下來不用做揭露囉"},{"start":383.473,"end":390.085,"text":"報給你你來揭露把它變成一套完整中央決定會揭露可是是不是地方政府就不必要去做揭露這件事情我"},{"start":392.386,"end":413.437,"text":"我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了"},{"start":414.118,"end":415.299,"text":"你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣"},{"start":432.839,"end":451.342,"text":"地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好"},{"start":452.003,"end":475.766,"text":"但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任或沒有必要他去做揭露 我不會這樣說可是你回想一下你在NGO的時候如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站它的效果會不會這麼好那我會去挑最好的 我會去挑最好的來看是嘛 可是我不會說其他就沒有責任揭露如果這個地方能夠統合 一起把這個平台做到最好這個才是最有效率的這個這個事情我們中央會來做我們中央會做 可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任"},{"start":476.767,"end":491.898,"text":"地方政府通報的數據精準性什麼 要加強這當然是他的責任但是我們在談的是政策效果不要跌窗架屋 不要浪費多餘的時間跟人力強化政策的品質嘛 方向是這樣但沒關係 因為今天我們不要占用大家休息時間我們主條的時候再來好好討論 好不好好 辛苦 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時44分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。不好意思，耽誤大家休息時間。我們今天討論職業安全衛生法的修正案，本席也有提相關的案子，例如針對第四十九條提了一項修正案。這個修正案的用意是這樣的，我們借用質詢時間預先討論，逐條審查的時候，我們也希望勞動部可以用更開放的心態處理。目前規定要公布雇主姓名和名稱，就是違反勞動相關法令時要公示於眾，這樣才會有嚇阻力，對不對？","包括勞動基準法第八十條之一、勞退條例第五十三條之一、勞工職災保險及保護法第一百條、性別工作平等法第三十八條等等，其實有非常多條文。現在實際上的狀況是勞動部有一個統一的平台，各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態都會登載在這個平台，這個平台上面的資料滿完整的，寫的非常清楚，包含各縣市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等選項，而且很好查。"],["洪部長申翰：我希望能更完整。"],["牛委員煦庭：你希望更完整？非常好，我們今天就針對這件事情做一下討論。這個平台是完整的，操作性也佳，但部長知不知道各地方政府執行的狀況如何？"],["洪部長申翰：他們有時候登錄的時間會延遲。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，本席的簡報一張、一張地放給你看。這是勞動部的平台嘛！其實內容已經非常清楚，剛才部長也說要做得更清楚，這點本席給予肯定。但各地方政府的部分就不像中央的這麼清楚，我們一張、一張的看，這幾張分別是苗栗、臺北、臺南的資料。就這幾個地方政府的樣態，本席在這邊向部長說明一下，地方大概就是把相關資料全部做成一個Excel檔或PDF檔，上傳到網路上就了事，對不對？","不管是操作易達性、資訊完整性、即時性，剛剛部長也有提到即時性，以及各網站的點閱率，一定是中央的效果好過各地方政府的效果。各地方政府變成什麼狀況？就是雖然有盡公布的義務，但恐怕是徒具形式，這點部長也很清楚，因為你以前待過NGO，對不對？以前透明足跡的網站就很棒，很多立法委員曾經拿來當作問政參考。為什麼？因為它是一個單一的平台，也有一定的知名度，所以大家會去查詢、使用那個資料。公布相關的裁罰才會對違法企業產生嚇阻和威嚇的效果，部長同意本席這樣說嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這是我們當初設計透明足跡的原意。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！部長也有這樣的經驗，所以你會希望這樣的平台優化。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席希望平台的優化可以一步到位，這一點本席相信部長應該有能力，也有經驗可以把它做得更好。但問題是我們現在需要什麼？我們希望簡政便民的部分也可以一併處理。也就是現在地方政府要把資料報給中央，然後又要丟在自己的網站上，本席覺得這是額外的業務負擔，不如藉由這次修法的機會乾脆整合。","也就是地方有資料，只要把格式按照你們心中比較完整的模式設計好，以後所有地方政府都一樣，有裁罰等作為時，只要彙整上傳就好了。這樣是不是全國只要一個平台就好，把非常詳細、完整的所有資料，公布在您所謂功能較好、內容較多的網站上？當所有要監督勞動相關議題的人，或者求職者要去查詢的時候，給予他們更好的易達性，這樣具有嚇阻效果，且網站有知名度可作為宣傳管道，對大家來說是不是比較方便？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，這次修法比較是針對職安法，因為近期幾個勞動法規的修法，都有在條文裡面放入資訊公開的條文，這次我們也把它放入職安法，讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，沒錯。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我們會努力，至少把勞動部自己的相關裁罰紀錄平台，也就是揭露的平台，我們希望能夠做得更好。其實我們近期也在和地方政府討論，例如條平司和地方政府討論，有些勞調上傳的速度比較慢，會delay，有時候大家可能過了一、兩個月還查不到，或者有什麼狀況，我們現在也希望他們在一定的時間內上傳，避免即時性不夠。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！本席現在的意思就是藉由這次修法調整，在本席的條文中也有提到，就是各地方政府報到中央，統一在中央的平台公布。"],["洪部長申翰：中央的部分，我們會盡力做好，可是地方政府要怎麼做，說實話，這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：他們一樣要報給你們。"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得是不是要和地方政府討論？因為這也關係到對地方政府的監督。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席之所以會提這樣的修法方向，原因就在這裡，與其期待各縣市的議會或是政府單位突然間腦袋靈光起來，關注到這件小事，不如中央直接針對法規，就遊戲規則調整，把行政程序簡化嘛！也就是既然地方本來就要報給中央，那麼是不是一併上傳這個平台？以後是不是就在同一個平台上作業就好？地方的平台就不用管它嘛！只用中央的平台，這樣效果也會比較好，我們是把這個部分寫在法條裡面，採用這樣的方向。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，第一個，我不認為這是小事，我認為這是大事。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為這件事情對企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我們願意和地方政府溝通，可是我們的確沒有辦法全然控制地方政府的介面該怎麼設計，但是我們會把中央的介面設計好。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席認為現在中央的平台最完整，而且做得最好，知名度也最高嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我們會把中央的介面設計好，但是我們也願意和地方政府討論，例如地方的介面是否應該符合哪些原則，包括他們上傳的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席今天談的就是這件事，與其期待各地方政府自定標準、疊床架屋，是不是以後就把作業流程單純化？也就是地方蒐集之後，全部在你們的平台完整公布，地方、中央都是給同一個網址，大家通通都是看這個平台，這樣的效果才會好，本席的意思是這樣。"],["洪部長申翰：委員的意思是說，地方政府接下來不用揭露囉？"],["牛委員煦庭：把資料報給你們，由你們揭露，把它變成一套完整的資訊，這也是揭露啊！"],["洪部長申翰：中央絕對願意揭露，可是地方政府是不是就不必揭露？我覺得也不應該讓地方政府沒有這些相關資料，他們可以把資料報給我們，由我們完整的揭露，這……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，他們本來就會把資料報給你們嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。我們的系統要把公開性做得更好，可達性、可近性也要做得更好，這些我們都會做。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說的這些我們都同意，但我們現在談的是……"],["洪部長申翰：他們是否就不用做了？"],["牛委員煦庭：本席現在談的是簡政，不要疊床架屋做無意義的事情嘛！這樣是不是會有更多空間？如果不要讓他們做那麼多事，不只地方要揭露，中央也要揭露，結果是資料一大堆，彙整的格式也不一樣。如果你們把這一段省下來，要求他們的即時性和精準性，這樣是不是比較有意義？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我的看法是這樣，地方政府也可以有他們著重的揭露項目，把他們的揭露項目做得更好，所以這部分我不會說他們不應該做。比方各縣市有各縣市最在意的產業相關裁罰問題，他們要再特別揭露或專案性的揭露，我覺得這也很好。我們會把中央的揭露系統做好，但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任，或沒有必要去揭露，我不會這樣說。"],["牛委員煦庭：你回想一下當初在NGO的時候，如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站，它的效果會不會這麼好？你稍微想一下。"],["洪部長申翰：那我會挑最好的來看。"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：可是我不會說其他的就沒有責任揭露。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果各地方能夠統合，一起把這個平台做到最好，這才是最有效率的政策嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：這個事情中央會做。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦！"],["洪部長申翰：中央會做，可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任。"],["牛委員煦庭：地方政府通報的數據精準性怎麼加強？這個當然是他們的責任，但我們談的是政策效果，不要疊床架屋、不要浪費多餘的時間和人力，要強化政策的品質嘛！方向是這樣。但是沒關係，今天我們不要占用大家休息的時間，逐條審查的時候再來好好討論，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員發言，謝謝部長的答詢。我們休息到一點再繼續開會。","休息（12時52分）","繼續開會（13時）"],["主席：不好意思，讓大家沒有充分的休息時間，不過因為時間到了，我們就繼續開會。","下一位請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}