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\"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"蹤\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 348.13, \"end\": 348.272, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 348.272, \"end\": 348.292, \"score\": 0.18}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,334 --> 00:00:32,002\n謝謝主席我們邀請勞動部部長也請洪部長張委員好部長好這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐故事的事情那其實也引發許多社會的輿論但今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了主要就是來到我們在2019年長榮航空的空服員罷工的時候下夜\n\n2\n00:00:32,942 --> 00:00:53,682\n公會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步那現在就想來討論一個核心的精神到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀因為過去以來我想我們在很多的不管是媒體的\n\n3\n00:00:54,643 --> 00:01:14,029\n論述上或是我們在社會上的價值都會覺得說哇這個人很努力工作盡心盡力是一個美德但是如果這樣子的文化但是這樣子的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值其實也容易變成是勞工的不合理的要求和自我剝削那我想請教部長就是說過去台灣被稱作勞動過勞之島\n\n4\n00:01:17,970 --> 00:01:38,610\n但是這麼多年過去了我們還是無法擺脫這樣子的惡名那我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論就是說我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論就是說像是病假權保障與懲罰性機制就是說企業已扣分啦\n\n5\n00:01:39,270 --> 00:01:58,638\n影響選班啦考今年中等的方式來間接懲罰你請病假那是否我們可以視為它是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢部長您的看法是委員在問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題那我自己是認為就是說\n\n6\n00:02:01,499 --> 00:02:27,851\n如果勞工明明就是已經生病了那他其實明明現在就是該請病假休息那卻要硬撐著來上班來繼續做他的工作那我認為這不應該被視為是一種好像企業正向的文化所以在這個狀況下我自己也認為這種勞工生病卻撐著不休息不應該被制度性的鼓勵\n\n7\n00:02:28,447 --> 00:02:33,684\n所以聽起來就是部長您也非常認同他其實是妨礙他們請病假的權利嘛也是一種不當的管理對嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,578 --> 00:02:58,927\n這是不是不當的管理當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實蠻多的可是至少我自己是覺得說你如果他明明就是明確他就是已經生病了那可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來那我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事好那我想這個是我們應該調整的方向對嗎\n\n9\n00:03:01,801 --> 00:03:22,518\n我認為我們在這個目標上面然後來看哪些做法相關的作為來去處理這樣子的樣態嘛對不對對我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步的來前進吧相關這個請病假的權利有更多的保障讓勞工不會用一種被制度性的方式好像被嚇阻了這樣子\n\n10\n00:03:23,137 --> 00:03:42,994\n好了解那第二個就是說有就是有關於職災與過勞的認定喔那不曉得說在這個case上面我們有沒有進行的這個職業病或是職災因果的評估那評估的項目有沒有包含到公事輪班跨時區醫組跟組織壓力那目前我們在如果已經做了職災那目前的進度大概是什麼\n\n11\n00:03:44,132 --> 00:04:11,769\n我們會當然會在這個案例裡面做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查不過這部分的確他會比較專業他也涉及到一些專業的認定所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間所以我們現在是還沒啟動其實我們當然有初步的一些了解可是可能還需要更多的資訊所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員來做一些訪談\n\n12\n00:04:12,677 --> 00:04:38,884\n了解那我們預估是大概什麼時候會有一個初步的報告呢或是結論職業病跟職災的判斷其實可能會要真的要時間比較久通常職業病跟職災的判斷會需要的時間真的會比較多大概會是什麼時候我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續嗎因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛所以大概什麼時間會比較好來追後續這件事情是不是先兩個月我們一個初步的了解好不好\n\n13\n00:04:39,465 --> 00:04:56,735\n好沒有問題因為其實我也只是想要了解說我們到底有沒有什麼樣子的更積極的我們從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來去面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的這樣子的一個事件那我也想再請教一下就是說在我們整個事件發生到現在\n\n14\n00:04:59,556 --> 00:05:16,866\n他被拒絕請病假那算不算一種職場霸凌呢也就是說在我們現在的如果拒絕請病假這直接是違法的違法如果拒絕請病假僱主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假這個事情有發生這直接就是違反勞基法了對\n\n15\n00:05:18,109 --> 00:05:47,409\n所以這個我們就是他也不用放在這個霸凌裡面嗎他就是聽起來就是在直接原本的勞基法裡面去在勞基法裡面對就是不能就這不用談霸不霸凌的問題如果拒絕請病假就是不行這就是違法的好了解好那我想就是說因為我時間也到了那我今天我想就是在我們具體的作為上面呢我們在兩個月我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的一個精進做法所以之後兩個月之後我們會來持續的跟龍龍部來追蹤謝謝\n\n16\n00:05:48,130 --> 00:05:48,292\n谢谢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8334\t32002\t謝謝主席 我們邀請勞動部部長也請洪部長張委員好 部長好這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐故事的事情那其實也引發許多社會的輿論但今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了主要就是來到我們在2019年長榮航空的空服員罷工的時候下夜\n32942\t53682\t公會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步那現在就想來討論一個核心的精神到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀因為過去以來我想我們在很多的不管是媒體的\n54643\t74029\t論述上或是我們在社會上的價值都會覺得說哇這個人很努力工作盡心盡力是一個美德但是如果這樣子的文化但是這樣子的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值其實也容易變成是勞工的不合理的要求和自我剝削那我想請教部長就是說過去台灣被稱作勞動過勞之島\n77970\t98610\t但是這麼多年過去了我們還是無法擺脫這樣子的惡名那我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論就是說我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論就是說像是病假權保障與懲罰性機制就是說企業已扣分啦\n99270\t118638\t影響選班啦 考今年中等的方式來間接懲罰你請病假那是否我們可以視為它是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢部長您的看法是委員在問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題那我自己是認為就是說\n121499\t147851\t如果勞工明明就是已經生病了那他其實明明現在就是該請病假休息那卻要硬撐著來上班來繼續做他的工作那我認為這不應該被視為是一種好像企業正向的文化所以在這個狀況下我自己也認為這種勞工生病卻撐著不休息不應該被制度性的鼓勵\n148447\t153684\t所以聽起來就是部長您也非常認同他其實是妨礙他們請病假的權利嘛也是一種不當的管理 對嗎\n156578\t178927\t這是不是不當的管理當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實蠻多的可是至少我自己是覺得說你如果他明明就是明確他就是已經生病了那可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來那我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事好那我想這個是我們應該調整的方向對嗎\n181801\t202518\t我認為我們在這個目標上面然後來看哪些做法相關的作為來去處理這樣子的樣態嘛對不對對我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步的來前進吧相關這個請病假的權利有更多的保障讓勞工不會用一種被制度性的方式好像被嚇阻了這樣子\n203137\t222994\t好了解那第二個就是說有就是有關於職災與過勞的認定喔那不曉得說在這個case上面我們有沒有進行的這個職業病或是職災因果的評估那評估的項目有沒有包含到公事輪班跨時區醫組跟組織壓力那目前我們在如果已經做了職災那目前的進度大概是什麼\n224132\t251769\t我們會當然會在這個案例裡面做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查不過這部分的確他會比較專業他也涉及到一些專業的認定所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間所以我們現在是還沒啟動其實我們當然有初步的一些了解可是可能還需要更多的資訊所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員來做一些訪談\n252677\t278884\t了解 那我們預估是大概什麼時候會有一個初步的報告呢或是結論職業病跟職災的判斷其實可能會要真的要時間比較久通常職業病跟職災的判斷會需要的時間真的會比較多大概會是什麼時候我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續嗎因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛所以大概什麼時間會比較好來追後續這件事情是不是先兩個月我們一個初步的了解好不好\n279465\t296735\t好沒有問題因為其實我也只是想要了解說我們到底有沒有什麼樣子的更積極的我們從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來去面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的這樣子的一個事件那我也想再請教一下就是說在我們整個事件發生到現在\n299556\t316866\t他被拒絕請病假那算不算一種職場霸凌呢也就是說在我們現在的如果拒絕請病假這直接是違法的違法如果拒絕請病假僱主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假這個事情有發生這直接就是違反勞基法了對\n318109\t347409\t所以這個我們就是他也不用放在這個霸凌裡面嗎他就是聽起來就是在直接原本的勞基法裡面去在勞基法裡面對就是不能就這不用談霸不霸凌的問題如果拒絕請病假就是不行這就是違法的好了解好那我想就是說因為我時間也到了那我今天我想就是在我們具體的作為上面呢我們在兩個月我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的一個精進做法所以之後兩個月之後我們會來持續的跟龍龍部來追蹤謝謝\n348130\t348292\t谢谢\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們邀請勞動部部長也請洪部長張委員好 部長好這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐故事的事情那其實也引發許多社會的輿論但今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了主要就是來到我們在2019年長榮航空的空服員罷工的時候下夜\n公會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步那現在就想來討論一個核心的精神到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀因為過去以來我想我們在很多的不管是媒體的\n論述上或是我們在社會上的價值都會覺得說哇這個人很努力工作盡心盡力是一個美德但是如果這樣子的文化但是這樣子的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值其實也容易變成是勞工的不合理的要求和自我剝削那我想請教部長就是說過去台灣被稱作勞動過勞之島\n但是這麼多年過去了我們還是無法擺脫這樣子的惡名那我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論就是說我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論就是說像是病假權保障與懲罰性機制就是說企業已扣分啦\n影響選班啦 考今年中等的方式來間接懲罰你請病假那是否我們可以視為它是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢部長您的看法是委員在問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題那我自己是認為就是說\n如果勞工明明就是已經生病了那他其實明明現在就是該請病假休息那卻要硬撐著來上班來繼續做他的工作那我認為這不應該被視為是一種好像企業正向的文化所以在這個狀況下我自己也認為這種勞工生病卻撐著不休息不應該被制度性的鼓勵\n所以聽起來就是部長您也非常認同他其實是妨礙他們請病假的權利嘛也是一種不當的管理 對嗎\n這是不是不當的管理當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實蠻多的可是至少我自己是覺得說你如果他明明就是明確他就是已經生病了那可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來那我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事好那我想這個是我們應該調整的方向對嗎\n我認為我們在這個目標上面然後來看哪些做法相關的作為來去處理這樣子的樣態嘛對不對對我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步的來前進吧相關這個請病假的權利有更多的保障讓勞工不會用一種被制度性的方式好像被嚇阻了這樣子\n好了解那第二個就是說有就是有關於職災與過勞的認定喔那不曉得說在這個case上面我們有沒有進行的這個職業病或是職災因果的評估那評估的項目有沒有包含到公事輪班跨時區醫組跟組織壓力那目前我們在如果已經做了職災那目前的進度大概是什麼\n我們會當然會在這個案例裡面做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查不過這部分的確他會比較專業他也涉及到一些專業的認定所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間所以我們現在是還沒啟動其實我們當然有初步的一些了解可是可能還需要更多的資訊所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員來做一些訪談\n了解 那我們預估是大概什麼時候會有一個初步的報告呢或是結論職業病跟職災的判斷其實可能會要真的要時間比較久通常職業病跟職災的判斷會需要的時間真的會比較多大概會是什麼時候我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續嗎因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛所以大概什麼時間會比較好來追後續這件事情是不是先兩個月我們一個初步的了解好不好\n好沒有問題因為其實我也只是想要了解說我們到底有沒有什麼樣子的更積極的我們從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來去面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的這樣子的一個事件那我也想再請教一下就是說在我們整個事件發生到現在\n他被拒絕請病假那算不算一種職場霸凌呢也就是說在我們現在的如果拒絕請病假這直接是違法的違法如果拒絕請病假僱主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假這個事情有發生這直接就是違反勞基法了對\n所以這個我們就是他也不用放在這個霸凌裡面嗎他就是聽起來就是在直接原本的勞基法裡面去在勞基法裡面對就是不能就這不用談霸不霸凌的問題如果拒絕請病假就是不行這就是違法的好了解好那我想就是說因為我時間也到了那我今天我想就是在我們具體的作為上面呢我們在兩個月我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的一個精進做法所以之後兩個月之後我們會來持續的跟龍龍部來追蹤謝謝\n谢谢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.334 --> 00:32.002\n謝謝主席我們邀請勞動部部長也請洪部長張委員好部長好這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐故事的事情那其實也引發許多社會的輿論但今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了主要就是來到我們在2019年長榮航空的空服員罷工的時候下夜\n\n00:32.942 --> 00:53.682\n公會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步那現在就想來討論一個核心的精神到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀因為過去以來我想我們在很多的不管是媒體的\n\n00:54.643 --> 01:14.029\n論述上或是我們在社會上的價值都會覺得說哇這個人很努力工作盡心盡力是一個美德但是如果這樣子的文化但是這樣子的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值其實也容易變成是勞工的不合理的要求和自我剝削那我想請教部長就是說過去台灣被稱作勞動過勞之島\n\n01:17.970 --> 01:38.610\n但是這麼多年過去了我們還是無法擺脫這樣子的惡名那我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論就是說我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論就是說像是病假權保障與懲罰性機制就是說企業已扣分啦\n\n01:39.270 --> 01:58.638\n影響選班啦考今年中等的方式來間接懲罰你請病假那是否我們可以視為它是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢部長您的看法是委員在問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題那我自己是認為就是說\n\n02:01.499 --> 02:27.851\n如果勞工明明就是已經生病了那他其實明明現在就是該請病假休息那卻要硬撐著來上班來繼續做他的工作那我認為這不應該被視為是一種好像企業正向的文化所以在這個狀況下我自己也認為這種勞工生病卻撐著不休息不應該被制度性的鼓勵\n\n02:28.447 --> 02:33.684\n所以聽起來就是部長您也非常認同他其實是妨礙他們請病假的權利嘛也是一種不當的管理對嗎\n\n02:36.578 --> 02:58.927\n這是不是不當的管理當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實蠻多的可是至少我自己是覺得說你如果他明明就是明確他就是已經生病了那可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來那我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事好那我想這個是我們應該調整的方向對嗎\n\n03:01.801 --> 03:22.518\n我認為我們在這個目標上面然後來看哪些做法相關的作為來去處理這樣子的樣態嘛對不對對我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步的來前進吧相關這個請病假的權利有更多的保障讓勞工不會用一種被制度性的方式好像被嚇阻了這樣子\n\n03:23.137 --> 03:42.994\n好了解那第二個就是說有就是有關於職災與過勞的認定喔那不曉得說在這個case上面我們有沒有進行的這個職業病或是職災因果的評估那評估的項目有沒有包含到公事輪班跨時區醫組跟組織壓力那目前我們在如果已經做了職災那目前的進度大概是什麼\n\n03:44.132 --> 04:11.769\n我們會當然會在這個案例裡面做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查不過這部分的確他會比較專業他也涉及到一些專業的認定所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間所以我們現在是還沒啟動其實我們當然有初步的一些了解可是可能還需要更多的資訊所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員來做一些訪談\n\n04:12.677 --> 04:38.884\n了解那我們預估是大概什麼時候會有一個初步的報告呢或是結論職業病跟職災的判斷其實可能會要真的要時間比較久通常職業病跟職災的判斷會需要的時間真的會比較多大概會是什麼時候我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續嗎因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛所以大概什麼時間會比較好來追後續這件事情是不是先兩個月我們一個初步的了解好不好\n\n04:39.465 --> 04:56.735\n好沒有問題因為其實我也只是想要了解說我們到底有沒有什麼樣子的更積極的我們從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來去面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的這樣子的一個事件那我也想再請教一下就是說在我們整個事件發生到現在\n\n04:59.556 --> 05:16.866\n他被拒絕請病假那算不算一種職場霸凌呢也就是說在我們現在的如果拒絕請病假這直接是違法的違法如果拒絕請病假僱主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假這個事情有發生這直接就是違反勞基法了對\n\n05:18.109 --> 05:47.409\n所以這個我們就是他也不用放在這個霸凌裡面嗎他就是聽起來就是在直接原本的勞基法裡面去在勞基法裡面對就是不能就這不用談霸不霸凌的問題如果拒絕請病假就是不行這就是違法的好了解好那我想就是說因為我時間也到了那我今天我想就是在我們具體的作為上面呢我們在兩個月我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的一個精進做法所以之後兩個月之後我們會來持續的跟龍龍部來追蹤謝謝\n\n05:48.130 --> 05:48.292\n谢谢\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.334,"end":32.002,"text":"謝謝主席 我們邀請勞動部部長也請洪部長張委員好 部長好這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐故事的事情那其實也引發許多社會的輿論但今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了主要就是來到我們在2019年長榮航空的空服員罷工的時候下夜"},{"start":32.942,"end":53.682,"text":"公會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步那現在就想來討論一個核心的精神到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀因為過去以來我想我們在很多的不管是媒體的"},{"start":54.643,"end":74.029,"text":"論述上或是我們在社會上的價值都會覺得說哇這個人很努力工作盡心盡力是一個美德但是如果這樣子的文化但是這樣子的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值其實也容易變成是勞工的不合理的要求和自我剝削那我想請教部長就是說過去台灣被稱作勞動過勞之島"},{"start":77.97,"end":98.61,"text":"但是這麼多年過去了我們還是無法擺脫這樣子的惡名那我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論就是說我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論就是說像是病假權保障與懲罰性機制就是說企業已扣分啦"},{"start":99.27,"end":118.638,"text":"影響選班啦 考今年中等的方式來間接懲罰你請病假那是否我們可以視為它是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢部長您的看法是委員在問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題那我自己是認為就是說"},{"start":121.499,"end":147.851,"text":"如果勞工明明就是已經生病了那他其實明明現在就是該請病假休息那卻要硬撐著來上班來繼續做他的工作那我認為這不應該被視為是一種好像企業正向的文化所以在這個狀況下我自己也認為這種勞工生病卻撐著不休息不應該被制度性的鼓勵"},{"start":148.447,"end":153.684,"text":"所以聽起來就是部長您也非常認同他其實是妨礙他們請病假的權利嘛也是一種不當的管理 對嗎"},{"start":156.578,"end":178.927,"text":"這是不是不當的管理當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實蠻多的可是至少我自己是覺得說你如果他明明就是明確他就是已經生病了那可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來那我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事好那我想這個是我們應該調整的方向對嗎"},{"start":181.801,"end":202.518,"text":"我認為我們在這個目標上面然後來看哪些做法相關的作為來去處理這樣子的樣態嘛對不對對我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步的來前進吧相關這個請病假的權利有更多的保障讓勞工不會用一種被制度性的方式好像被嚇阻了這樣子"},{"start":203.137,"end":222.994,"text":"好了解那第二個就是說有就是有關於職災與過勞的認定喔那不曉得說在這個case上面我們有沒有進行的這個職業病或是職災因果的評估那評估的項目有沒有包含到公事輪班跨時區醫組跟組織壓力那目前我們在如果已經做了職災那目前的進度大概是什麼"},{"start":224.132,"end":251.769,"text":"我們會當然會在這個案例裡面做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查不過這部分的確他會比較專業他也涉及到一些專業的認定所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間所以我們現在是還沒啟動其實我們當然有初步的一些了解可是可能還需要更多的資訊所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員來做一些訪談"},{"start":252.677,"end":278.884,"text":"了解 那我們預估是大概什麼時候會有一個初步的報告呢或是結論職業病跟職災的判斷其實可能會要真的要時間比較久通常職業病跟職災的判斷會需要的時間真的會比較多大概會是什麼時候我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續嗎因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛所以大概什麼時間會比較好來追後續這件事情是不是先兩個月我們一個初步的了解好不好"},{"start":279.465,"end":296.735,"text":"好沒有問題因為其實我也只是想要了解說我們到底有沒有什麼樣子的更積極的我們從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來去面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的這樣子的一個事件那我也想再請教一下就是說在我們整個事件發生到現在"},{"start":299.556,"end":316.866,"text":"他被拒絕請病假那算不算一種職場霸凌呢也就是說在我們現在的如果拒絕請病假這直接是違法的違法如果拒絕請病假僱主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假這個事情有發生這直接就是違反勞基法了對"},{"start":318.109,"end":347.409,"text":"所以這個我們就是他也不用放在這個霸凌裡面嗎他就是聽起來就是在直接原本的勞基法裡面去在勞基法裡面對就是不能就這不用談霸不霸凌的問題如果拒絕請病假就是不行這就是違法的好了解好那我想就是說因為我時間也到了那我今天我想就是在我們具體的作為上面呢我們在兩個月我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的一個精進做法所以之後兩個月之後我們會來持續的跟龍龍部來追蹤謝謝"},{"start":348.13,"end":348.292,"text":"谢谢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1131,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時16分）謝謝主席，我們邀請勞動部部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐過世的事情，其實也引發許多社會的輿論，今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了。其實在2019年長榮航空空服員罷工的時候，工會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿，但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步。現在我就想來討論一個核心的精神，到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀？","因為過去以來，我想我們在很多的，不管是媒體的論述上或是我們在社會上的價值，都會覺得說這個人很努力工作、盡心盡力是一個美德，但是這樣的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值，其實也容易變成是對於勞工不合理的要求和自我剝削。我想請教部長的就是說，過去臺灣被稱做過勞之島，這麼多年過去了，我們還是無法擺脫這樣的惡名。我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論，我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論，第一個是病假權保障與懲罰性機制，就是企業以扣分、影響選班、考績、年終等方式來間接懲罰你請病假，是否我們可以視為這是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢？部長，您的看法如何？"],["洪部長申翰：是，委員問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題，我自己是認為如果勞工明明就已經生病了，他明明就是該請病假休息，卻要硬撐著來上班繼續工作，我認為這不應該被視為是一種企業正向的文化。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["洪部長申翰：所以在這個狀況下，我自己也認為勞工生病卻撐著不休息是不應該被制度性的鼓勵。"],["張委員雅琳：所以聽起來就是部長也非常認同這其實是妨礙了他們請病假的權利嘛，也是一種不當的管理，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這是不是不當的管理，當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實滿多的，可是至少我自己是覺得說，他明確的就已經生病了，可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來，我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想這個就是我們應該要調整的方向，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們在這個目標上面，然後來看有哪些作法……"],["張委員雅琳：我們應該要有相關的作為去處理這樣的樣態嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步地來前進，讓相關請病假的權利能有更多的保障、讓勞工不會好像是被制度性的方式嚇阻了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。第二個就是有關於職災與過勞的認定，不曉得在這個case上面我們有沒有進行職業病或是職災的因果評估？評估項目有沒有包含到工時、輪班、跨時區、醫囑跟組織壓力？我們如果已經有做職災因果評估，目前的進度大概是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然會就這個案例去做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查，不過這個部分的確會比較專業，也涉及到一些專業的認定，所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在還沒啟動？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們有初步的一些了解，可是可能還需要更多的資訊，所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員做一些訪談。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，那預估大概什麼時候會有初步的報告或是結論？"],["洪部長申翰：職業病跟職災的判斷真的時間要比較久，通常職業病跟職災的判斷需要的時間真的會比較多。"],["張委員雅琳：大概會是什麼時候？我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續，因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛，所以大概什麼時間後續來追蹤這件事情會比較好？"],["林署長毓堂：委員，是不是先兩個月我們有一個初步的了解，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒有問題，其實我也只是想要了解到底有沒有什麼樣子更積極的方式，從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的事件。","我也想再請教一下，整個事件發生到現在，他被拒絕請病假，那算不算一種職場霸凌呢？也就是說，在我們現在的……"],["洪部長申翰：如果拒絕請病假，就直接是違法的。"],["張委員雅琳：被拒絕是違法，那是不是有符合……"],["洪部長申翰：如果雇主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假，如果這種事情有發生，這直接就是違反勞基法。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以它也不用放在霸凌裡面嘛，聽起來就是直接在原本的勞基法裡面去處理。"],["洪部長申翰：在勞基法裡面就是不能拒絕，這不用談霸不霸凌的問題，如果拒絕請病假就是不行，這就是違法的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。因為我的時間也到了，在具體的作為上面再給兩個月的時間，我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的精進作法，所以兩個月之後我們會持續跟勞動部來追蹤，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的發言。","下一位請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}