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553.017, \"end\": 553.277, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 553.277, \"end\": 553.497, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 553.497, \"end\": 553.698, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 553.698, \"end\": 553.798, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 553.798, \"end\": 554.138, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 554.138, \"end\": 554.298, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 554.298, \"end\": 554.518, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 554.518, \"end\": 554.678, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 554.678, \"end\": 554.798, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 554.798, \"end\": 555.138, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 555.138, \"end\": 555.299, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 555.299, \"end\": 555.439, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 555.439, \"end\": 555.959, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 555.959, \"end\": 556.079, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 556.079, \"end\": 556.179, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 556.179, \"end\": 556.379, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 556.379, \"end\": 556.559, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 556.559, \"end\": 556.8, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 556.8, \"end\": 556.82, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 556.82, \"end\": 556.84, \"score\": 0.075}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,393 --> 00:00:13,703\n好謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳主委我們請陳主委謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:22,797 --> 00:00:48,185\n主委好主委我想這個每次談到公平會就會有很多其實大部分我們都會談到這個直銷到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞有沒有問題對於公平會來講你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢都會面對到很多委員的這個提問\n\n3\n00:00:51,304 --> 00:01:06,684\n主委你知道這家公司嗎我最近才聽到最近才知道聽說最近蠻紅的不過今天各大媒體都在報導因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司所以這家公司已經幾乎是面臨倒閉\n\n4\n00:01:08,103 --> 00:01:37,290\n那這個涉嫌掏空公司這個另外有法令去處理為什麼今天在這裡問你們因為他是一家直銷公司他的入會會員要繳八萬八千塊然後呢還有商品進貨價等等會員轉售可賺取價差公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金這就是明顯的傳銷公司嘛直銷公司可是這家公司現在\n\n5\n00:01:38,570 --> 00:02:05,298\n出現了一個大問題那公司涉嫌掏空六億董事長也坦誠犯刑我要跟你談的是那下面的這一些會員怎麼辦血本無歸在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們這個等一下請回答另外我們常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙\n\n6\n00:02:07,330 --> 00:02:31,078\n其實是層出不窮除了這一家公司以外還有另外一家叫做愛美全球這一家呢前一陣子也倒閉了倒閉了之後呢不到多久在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做世紀全球又出現了一家叫做世紀全球公司\n\n7\n00:02:32,470 --> 00:02:56,078\n兩家公司的地址是一樣賣的產品是一樣只是公司負責人換掉了那自救會呢愛美全球的自救會去上門去討債去尋找這個債主但是所求無門啊主委你們知道這些事情嗎我知道\n\n8\n00:02:56,977 --> 00:03:04,389\n你們知道那你們有沒有主動介入調查你們現在調查的結果調查的程度到哪裡可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下\n\n9\n00:03:06,129 --> 00:03:34,040\n首先針對第一個案子那個部分掏空的部分我們有去了解當然後續我們還是持續觀察有沒有違反多層層傳銷管理辦法規定那我們了解基本上是掏空公司還有公司股東之間的一個股權的爭議那我們有問過他們目前公司了解一下我們目前公司的營運狀況目前還是正常但是我們事後還是會持續去觀察看有沒有涉及到傷害到這個傳銷商的權益的一些事項那第二個案子\n\n10\n00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:53,393\n當然涉及違法吸金的部分這部分我們向來都是由法務部依照犯罪行為來處理那關於委員所關切的這些問題我想委員也知道在多層次傳消在公平會的報備制度底下我們要求他提供資訊在他設立的時候必須提供資訊我們要確認這個資訊的真實性\n\n11\n00:03:55,655 --> 00:04:21,523\n那當然如果後續他是不是片面的去改變他的資訊的內容理論上來講他一定要跟我們報備如果你要變更產品你覺得他如果片面改變資訊內容他會跟你們報備嗎這個報備這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久到底多層次傳銷是要用使用報備制還是使用審查制這個兩派的說法論戰非常的激烈但是眼前看到的多層次傳銷\n\n12\n00:04:23,484 --> 00:04:52,069\n的管理報備制的管理顯然出現了極大的漏洞跟極大的問題而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資真詐騙的事情層出不窮喔對你們公平會來講你們叫做疲於奔命啊那你手上也沒有上方保健可以去處理他們就算你要處理你的量能基本上也是不足的就你公平會來講你每年只能積查100家左右100家已經很了不起了\n\n13\n00:04:53,001 --> 00:05:16,118\n那全台灣報備的或者是全台灣在做這些直銷的大概有幾百家幾千家你們量能在哪裡你每次都是講我事後知道看到報導了知道或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道然後呢你給他裁罰對不對你會給他裁罰你會去調查那裁罰了以後呢\n\n14\n00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:36,724\n我們事後的裁法當然像這個案子我目前已經有在立案調查調查這個事情那當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續的做這個業務的監理了解他有沒有按照我們當初裁法所要求來做那第二個案子的部分我想委員建議的這些相關的\n\n15\n00:05:38,084 --> 00:06:02,701\n积极的一点的一种报备的一个制度这个其实还是回归到我们刚刚委员谈到的报备许可制的问题其实我觉得现在已经走到这个阶段我们应该认真的思考包括你们公平会应该认真的思考到底多层次传销是不是要再持续使用报备制如果把它改成审查制对于消费者或者是对于这些会员来讲\n\n16\n00:06:03,562 --> 00:06:20,929\n是不是會比較有保障而且對於你們的監管是不是會比較與法有據這個是你們要認真考慮的一點我再來跟你講第三個案子你剛剛講到那些不管是報備審查我現在跟你講到第三個叫做強迫推銷\n\n17\n00:06:22,819 --> 00:06:42,505\n街頭強迫推銷過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團因為他這次在路邊發問卷免費贈送保養品試用品你們把他裁罰叫做依公平會的這個第25條顯示公平行為重罰新台幣2500萬元\n\n18\n00:06:45,765 --> 00:07:14,021\n過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過那我想請教最近媒體也多方的報導甚至在消保會消保官也累計到了15件類似行為的申訴他是在中山商圈有一家這個叫何瑞公司推銷什麼抹鹽硬強迫你然後把你拉進去就要買商品這你們有掌握嗎\n\n19\n00:07:15,970 --> 00:07:22,975\n好那個我跟委員報告這個案子沒錯就是在在消保會所以還沒有送到公平會來那他有沒有觸犯\n\n20\n00:07:24,851 --> 00:07:48,062\n當然這個個案我們要進行調查才會知道但是跟委員報告一下這個所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件除了剛剛委員點到25條要一定的數量以外另外就是說他的行為必須要讓這個受害人已經達到脅迫的一個程度讓他無法抗拒那我有處理一些案子基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候他可以輕易的就拒絕那就可以規避掉了\n\n21\n00:07:48,422 --> 00:08:10,997\n所以有時候那個階段基本上它就可以規避掉所以如果沒有達到那個強制的程度的話我們是比較沒辦法用25條去處理這種強迫推銷這個主委我覺得是這樣你這樣講大概很多消費者大概內心都不太能夠接受我希望你們能夠主動的去調查這個案子這新聞媒體也都有報導它有沒有強制\n\n22\n00:08:11,477 --> 00:08:22,325\n他把他拉用街頭抹鹽推銷然後把他拉進去店裡面然後就開了一瓶保養品說叫他立刻試用打開了之後就告訴他你已經打開了所以你不能退貨\n\n23\n00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:51,553\n那這有沒有強迫推銷所以好那我就請你們去調查嘛如果像類似這樣的事情我覺得這個已經層出不窮至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的多層次傳銷法你沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團假投資真詐騙那你這樣子的公平交易法至少你們可以做得到吧如果連這個都做不到的話那我真的不知道\n\n24\n00:08:52,864 --> 00:09:16,840\n公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西你不能都說你們沒有主動的調查權等等的法令在那裡其實法令是可以修改的法令是可以往前更進一步的當你知道有這麼多的受害案件的時候其實我們不應該被動的去等待人家來提供資訊這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察那這個案子我們會後續會去進一步的了解OK好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11393\t13703\t好謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳主委我們請陳主委謝謝\n22797\t48185\t主委好主委我想這個每次談到公平會就會有很多其實大部分我們都會談到這個直銷到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞有沒有問題對於公平會來講你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢都會面對到很多委員的這個提問\n51304\t66684\t主委你知道這家公司嗎我最近才聽到最近才知道聽說最近蠻紅的不過今天各大媒體都在報導因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司所以這家公司已經幾乎是面臨倒閉\n68103\t97290\t那這個涉嫌掏空公司這個另外有法令去處理為什麼今天在這裡問你們因為他是一家直銷公司他的入會會員要繳八萬八千塊然後呢還有商品進貨價等等會員轉售可賺取價差公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金這就是明顯的傳銷公司嘛直銷公司可是這家公司現在\n98570\t125298\t出現了一個大問題那公司涉嫌掏空六億董事長也坦誠犯刑我要跟你談的是那下面的這一些會員怎麼辦血本無歸在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們這個等一下請回答另外我們常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙\n127330\t151078\t其實是層出不窮除了這一家公司以外還有另外一家叫做愛美全球這一家呢前一陣子也倒閉了倒閉了之後呢不到多久在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做世紀全球又出現了一家叫做世紀全球公司\n152470\t176078\t兩家公司的地址是一樣賣的產品是一樣只是公司負責人換掉了那自救會呢愛美全球的自救會去上門去討債去尋找這個債主但是所求無門啊主委你們知道這些事情嗎我知道\n176977\t184389\t你們知道 那你們有沒有主動介入調查你們現在調查的結果 調查的程度到哪裡可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下\n186129\t214040\t首先針對第一個案子那個部分掏空的部分我們有去了解當然後續我們還是持續觀察有沒有違反多層層傳銷管理辦法規定那我們了解基本上是掏空公司還有公司股東之間的一個股權的爭議那我們有問過他們目前公司了解一下我們目前公司的營運狀況目前還是正常但是我們事後還是會持續去觀察看有沒有涉及到傷害到這個傳銷商的權益的一些事項那第二個案子\n215400\t233393\t當然涉及違法吸金的部分這部分我們向來都是由法務部依照犯罪行為來處理那關於委員所關切的這些問題我想委員也知道在多層次傳消在公平會的報備制度底下我們要求他提供資訊在他設立的時候必須提供資訊我們要確認這個資訊的真實性\n235655\t261523\t那當然如果後續他是不是片面的去改變他的資訊的內容理論上來講他一定要跟我們報備如果你要變更產品你覺得他如果片面改變資訊內容他會跟你們報備嗎這個報備這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久到底多層次傳銷是要用使用報備制還是使用審查制這個兩派的說法論戰非常的激烈但是眼前看到的多層次傳銷\n263484\t292069\t的管理報備制的管理顯然出現了極大的漏洞跟極大的問題而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資真詐騙的事情層出不窮喔對你們公平會來講你們叫做疲於奔命啊那你手上也沒有上方保健可以去處理他們就算你要處理你的量能基本上也是不足的就你公平會來講你每年只能積查100家左右100家已經很了不起了\n293001\t316118\t那全台灣報備的 或者是全台灣在做這些直銷的大概有幾百家 幾千家你們量能在哪裡你每次都是講我事後知道 看到報導了知道或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道然後呢 你給他裁罰 對不對你會給他裁罰 你會去調查那裁罰了以後呢\n317396\t336724\t我們事後的裁法當然像這個案子我目前已經有在立案調查調查這個事情那當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續的做這個業務的監理了解他有沒有按照我們當初裁法所要求來做那第二個案子的部分我想委員建議的這些相關的\n338084\t362701\t积极的一点的一种报备的一个制度这个其实还是回归到我们刚刚委员谈到的报备许可制的问题其实我觉得现在已经走到这个阶段我们应该认真的思考包括你们公平会应该认真的思考到底多层次传销是不是要再持续使用报备制如果把它改成审查制对于消费者或者是对于这些会员来讲\n363562\t380929\t是不是會比較有保障而且對於你們的監管是不是會比較與法有據這個是你們要認真考慮的一點我再來跟你講第三個案子你剛剛講到那些不管是報備 審查我現在跟你講到第三個叫做強迫推銷\n382819\t402505\t街頭強迫推銷過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團因為他這次在路邊發問卷免費贈送保養品 試用品你們把他裁罰叫做依公平會的這個第25條顯示公平行為重罰新台幣2500萬元\n405765\t434021\t過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過那我想請教最近媒體也多方的報導甚至在消保會消保官也累計到了15件類似行為的申訴他是在中山商圈有一家這個叫何瑞公司推銷什麼抹鹽硬強迫你然後把你拉進去就要買商品這你們有掌握嗎\n435970\t442975\t好 那個我跟委員報告 這個案子沒錯 就是在 在消保會所以還沒有送到公平會來 那他有沒有觸犯\n444851\t468062\t當然這個個案我們要進行調查才會知道但是跟委員報告一下這個所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件除了剛剛委員點到25條要一定的數量以外另外就是說他的行為必須要讓這個受害人已經達到脅迫的一個程度讓他無法抗拒那我有處理一些案子基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候他可以輕易的就拒絕那就可以規避掉了\n468422\t490997\t所以有時候那個階段基本上它就可以規避掉所以如果沒有達到那個強制的程度的話我們是比較沒辦法用25條去處理這種強迫推銷這個主委我覺得是這樣你這樣講大概很多消費者大概內心都不太能夠接受我希望你們能夠主動的去調查這個案子這新聞媒體也都有報導它有沒有強制\n491477\t502325\t他把他拉用街頭抹鹽推銷然後把他拉進去店裡面然後就開了一瓶保養品說叫他立刻試用打開了之後就告訴他你已經打開了所以你不能退貨\n504400\t531553\t那這有沒有強迫推銷所以好 那我就請你們去調查嘛如果像類似這樣的事情我覺得這個已經層出不窮至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的多層次傳銷法你沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團假投資真詐騙那你這樣子的公平交易法至少你們可以做得到吧如果連這個都做不到的話那我真的不知道\n532864\t556840\t公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西你不能都說你們沒有主動的調查權等等的法令在那裡其實法令是可以修改的法令是可以往前更進一步的當你知道有這麼多的受害案件的時候其實我們不應該被動的去等待人家來提供資訊這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察那這個案子我們會後續會去進一步的了解OK 好 謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳主委我們請陳主委謝謝\n主委好主委我想這個每次談到公平會就會有很多其實大部分我們都會談到這個直銷到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞有沒有問題對於公平會來講你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢都會面對到很多委員的這個提問\n主委你知道這家公司嗎我最近才聽到最近才知道聽說最近蠻紅的不過今天各大媒體都在報導因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司所以這家公司已經幾乎是面臨倒閉\n那這個涉嫌掏空公司這個另外有法令去處理為什麼今天在這裡問你們因為他是一家直銷公司他的入會會員要繳八萬八千塊然後呢還有商品進貨價等等會員轉售可賺取價差公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金這就是明顯的傳銷公司嘛直銷公司可是這家公司現在\n出現了一個大問題那公司涉嫌掏空六億董事長也坦誠犯刑我要跟你談的是那下面的這一些會員怎麼辦血本無歸在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們這個等一下請回答另外我們常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙\n其實是層出不窮除了這一家公司以外還有另外一家叫做愛美全球這一家呢前一陣子也倒閉了倒閉了之後呢不到多久在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做世紀全球又出現了一家叫做世紀全球公司\n兩家公司的地址是一樣賣的產品是一樣只是公司負責人換掉了那自救會呢愛美全球的自救會去上門去討債去尋找這個債主但是所求無門啊主委你們知道這些事情嗎我知道\n你們知道 那你們有沒有主動介入調查你們現在調查的結果 調查的程度到哪裡可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下\n首先針對第一個案子那個部分掏空的部分我們有去了解當然後續我們還是持續觀察有沒有違反多層層傳銷管理辦法規定那我們了解基本上是掏空公司還有公司股東之間的一個股權的爭議那我們有問過他們目前公司了解一下我們目前公司的營運狀況目前還是正常但是我們事後還是會持續去觀察看有沒有涉及到傷害到這個傳銷商的權益的一些事項那第二個案子\n當然涉及違法吸金的部分這部分我們向來都是由法務部依照犯罪行為來處理那關於委員所關切的這些問題我想委員也知道在多層次傳消在公平會的報備制度底下我們要求他提供資訊在他設立的時候必須提供資訊我們要確認這個資訊的真實性\n那當然如果後續他是不是片面的去改變他的資訊的內容理論上來講他一定要跟我們報備如果你要變更產品你覺得他如果片面改變資訊內容他會跟你們報備嗎這個報備這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久到底多層次傳銷是要用使用報備制還是使用審查制這個兩派的說法論戰非常的激烈但是眼前看到的多層次傳銷\n的管理報備制的管理顯然出現了極大的漏洞跟極大的問題而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資真詐騙的事情層出不窮喔對你們公平會來講你們叫做疲於奔命啊那你手上也沒有上方保健可以去處理他們就算你要處理你的量能基本上也是不足的就你公平會來講你每年只能積查100家左右100家已經很了不起了\n那全台灣報備的 或者是全台灣在做這些直銷的大概有幾百家 幾千家你們量能在哪裡你每次都是講我事後知道 看到報導了知道或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道然後呢 你給他裁罰 對不對你會給他裁罰 你會去調查那裁罰了以後呢\n我們事後的裁法當然像這個案子我目前已經有在立案調查調查這個事情那當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續的做這個業務的監理了解他有沒有按照我們當初裁法所要求來做那第二個案子的部分我想委員建議的這些相關的\n积极的一点的一种报备的一个制度这个其实还是回归到我们刚刚委员谈到的报备许可制的问题其实我觉得现在已经走到这个阶段我们应该认真的思考包括你们公平会应该认真的思考到底多层次传销是不是要再持续使用报备制如果把它改成审查制对于消费者或者是对于这些会员来讲\n是不是會比較有保障而且對於你們的監管是不是會比較與法有據這個是你們要認真考慮的一點我再來跟你講第三個案子你剛剛講到那些不管是報備 審查我現在跟你講到第三個叫做強迫推銷\n街頭強迫推銷過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團因為他這次在路邊發問卷免費贈送保養品 試用品你們把他裁罰叫做依公平會的這個第25條顯示公平行為重罰新台幣2500萬元\n過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過那我想請教最近媒體也多方的報導甚至在消保會消保官也累計到了15件類似行為的申訴他是在中山商圈有一家這個叫何瑞公司推銷什麼抹鹽硬強迫你然後把你拉進去就要買商品這你們有掌握嗎\n好 那個我跟委員報告 這個案子沒錯 就是在 在消保會所以還沒有送到公平會來 那他有沒有觸犯\n當然這個個案我們要進行調查才會知道但是跟委員報告一下這個所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件除了剛剛委員點到25條要一定的數量以外另外就是說他的行為必須要讓這個受害人已經達到脅迫的一個程度讓他無法抗拒那我有處理一些案子基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候他可以輕易的就拒絕那就可以規避掉了\n所以有時候那個階段基本上它就可以規避掉所以如果沒有達到那個強制的程度的話我們是比較沒辦法用25條去處理這種強迫推銷這個主委我覺得是這樣你這樣講大概很多消費者大概內心都不太能夠接受我希望你們能夠主動的去調查這個案子這新聞媒體也都有報導它有沒有強制\n他把他拉用街頭抹鹽推銷然後把他拉進去店裡面然後就開了一瓶保養品說叫他立刻試用打開了之後就告訴他你已經打開了所以你不能退貨\n那這有沒有強迫推銷所以好 那我就請你們去調查嘛如果像類似這樣的事情我覺得這個已經層出不窮至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的多層次傳銷法你沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團假投資真詐騙那你這樣子的公平交易法至少你們可以做得到吧如果連這個都做不到的話那我真的不知道\n公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西你不能都說你們沒有主動的調查權等等的法令在那裡其實法令是可以修改的法令是可以往前更進一步的當你知道有這麼多的受害案件的時候其實我們不應該被動的去等待人家來提供資訊這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察那這個案子我們會後續會去進一步的了解OK 好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.393 --> 00:13.703\n好謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳主委我們請陳主委謝謝\n\n00:22.797 --> 00:48.185\n主委好主委我想這個每次談到公平會就會有很多其實大部分我們都會談到這個直銷到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞有沒有問題對於公平會來講你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢都會面對到很多委員的這個提問\n\n00:51.304 --> 01:06.684\n主委你知道這家公司嗎我最近才聽到最近才知道聽說最近蠻紅的不過今天各大媒體都在報導因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司所以這家公司已經幾乎是面臨倒閉\n\n01:08.103 --> 01:37.290\n那這個涉嫌掏空公司這個另外有法令去處理為什麼今天在這裡問你們因為他是一家直銷公司他的入會會員要繳八萬八千塊然後呢還有商品進貨價等等會員轉售可賺取價差公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金這就是明顯的傳銷公司嘛直銷公司可是這家公司現在\n\n01:38.570 --> 02:05.298\n出現了一個大問題那公司涉嫌掏空六億董事長也坦誠犯刑我要跟你談的是那下面的這一些會員怎麼辦血本無歸在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們這個等一下請回答另外我們常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙\n\n02:07.330 --> 02:31.078\n其實是層出不窮除了這一家公司以外還有另外一家叫做愛美全球這一家呢前一陣子也倒閉了倒閉了之後呢不到多久在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做世紀全球又出現了一家叫做世紀全球公司\n\n02:32.470 --> 02:56.078\n兩家公司的地址是一樣賣的產品是一樣只是公司負責人換掉了那自救會呢愛美全球的自救會去上門去討債去尋找這個債主但是所求無門啊主委你們知道這些事情嗎我知道\n\n02:56.977 --> 03:04.389\n你們知道那你們有沒有主動介入調查你們現在調查的結果調查的程度到哪裡可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下\n\n03:06.129 --> 03:34.040\n首先針對第一個案子那個部分掏空的部分我們有去了解當然後續我們還是持續觀察有沒有違反多層層傳銷管理辦法規定那我們了解基本上是掏空公司還有公司股東之間的一個股權的爭議那我們有問過他們目前公司了解一下我們目前公司的營運狀況目前還是正常但是我們事後還是會持續去觀察看有沒有涉及到傷害到這個傳銷商的權益的一些事項那第二個案子\n\n03:35.400 --> 03:53.393\n當然涉及違法吸金的部分這部分我們向來都是由法務部依照犯罪行為來處理那關於委員所關切的這些問題我想委員也知道在多層次傳消在公平會的報備制度底下我們要求他提供資訊在他設立的時候必須提供資訊我們要確認這個資訊的真實性\n\n03:55.655 --> 04:21.523\n那當然如果後續他是不是片面的去改變他的資訊的內容理論上來講他一定要跟我們報備如果你要變更產品你覺得他如果片面改變資訊內容他會跟你們報備嗎這個報備這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久到底多層次傳銷是要用使用報備制還是使用審查制這個兩派的說法論戰非常的激烈但是眼前看到的多層次傳銷\n\n04:23.484 --> 04:52.069\n的管理報備制的管理顯然出現了極大的漏洞跟極大的問題而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資真詐騙的事情層出不窮喔對你們公平會來講你們叫做疲於奔命啊那你手上也沒有上方保健可以去處理他們就算你要處理你的量能基本上也是不足的就你公平會來講你每年只能積查100家左右100家已經很了不起了\n\n04:53.001 --> 05:16.118\n那全台灣報備的或者是全台灣在做這些直銷的大概有幾百家幾千家你們量能在哪裡你每次都是講我事後知道看到報導了知道或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道然後呢你給他裁罰對不對你會給他裁罰你會去調查那裁罰了以後呢\n\n05:17.396 --> 05:36.724\n我們事後的裁法當然像這個案子我目前已經有在立案調查調查這個事情那當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續的做這個業務的監理了解他有沒有按照我們當初裁法所要求來做那第二個案子的部分我想委員建議的這些相關的\n\n05:38.084 --> 06:02.701\n积极的一点的一种报备的一个制度这个其实还是回归到我们刚刚委员谈到的报备许可制的问题其实我觉得现在已经走到这个阶段我们应该认真的思考包括你们公平会应该认真的思考到底多层次传销是不是要再持续使用报备制如果把它改成审查制对于消费者或者是对于这些会员来讲\n\n06:03.562 --> 06:20.929\n是不是會比較有保障而且對於你們的監管是不是會比較與法有據這個是你們要認真考慮的一點我再來跟你講第三個案子你剛剛講到那些不管是報備審查我現在跟你講到第三個叫做強迫推銷\n\n06:22.819 --> 06:42.505\n街頭強迫推銷過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團因為他這次在路邊發問卷免費贈送保養品試用品你們把他裁罰叫做依公平會的這個第25條顯示公平行為重罰新台幣2500萬元\n\n06:45.765 --> 07:14.021\n過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過那我想請教最近媒體也多方的報導甚至在消保會消保官也累計到了15件類似行為的申訴他是在中山商圈有一家這個叫何瑞公司推銷什麼抹鹽硬強迫你然後把你拉進去就要買商品這你們有掌握嗎\n\n07:15.970 --> 07:22.975\n好那個我跟委員報告這個案子沒錯就是在在消保會所以還沒有送到公平會來那他有沒有觸犯\n\n07:24.851 --> 07:48.062\n當然這個個案我們要進行調查才會知道但是跟委員報告一下這個所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件除了剛剛委員點到25條要一定的數量以外另外就是說他的行為必須要讓這個受害人已經達到脅迫的一個程度讓他無法抗拒那我有處理一些案子基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候他可以輕易的就拒絕那就可以規避掉了\n\n07:48.422 --> 08:10.997\n所以有時候那個階段基本上它就可以規避掉所以如果沒有達到那個強制的程度的話我們是比較沒辦法用25條去處理這種強迫推銷這個主委我覺得是這樣你這樣講大概很多消費者大概內心都不太能夠接受我希望你們能夠主動的去調查這個案子這新聞媒體也都有報導它有沒有強制\n\n08:11.477 --> 08:22.325\n他把他拉用街頭抹鹽推銷然後把他拉進去店裡面然後就開了一瓶保養品說叫他立刻試用打開了之後就告訴他你已經打開了所以你不能退貨\n\n08:24.400 --> 08:51.553\n那這有沒有強迫推銷所以好那我就請你們去調查嘛如果像類似這樣的事情我覺得這個已經層出不窮至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的多層次傳銷法你沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團假投資真詐騙那你這樣子的公平交易法至少你們可以做得到吧如果連這個都做不到的話那我真的不知道\n\n08:52.864 --> 09:16.840\n公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西你不能都說你們沒有主動的調查權等等的法令在那裡其實法令是可以修改的法令是可以往前更進一步的當你知道有這麼多的受害案件的時候其實我們不應該被動的去等待人家來提供資訊這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察那這個案子我們會後續會去進一步的了解OK好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.393,"end":13.703,"text":"好謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳主委我們請陳主委謝謝"},{"start":22.797,"end":48.185,"text":"主委好主委我想這個每次談到公平會就會有很多其實大部分我們都會談到這個直銷到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞有沒有問題對於公平會來講你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢都會面對到很多委員的這個提問"},{"start":51.304,"end":66.684,"text":"主委你知道這家公司嗎我最近才聽到最近才知道聽說最近蠻紅的不過今天各大媒體都在報導因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司所以這家公司已經幾乎是面臨倒閉"},{"start":68.103,"end":97.29,"text":"那這個涉嫌掏空公司這個另外有法令去處理為什麼今天在這裡問你們因為他是一家直銷公司他的入會會員要繳八萬八千塊然後呢還有商品進貨價等等會員轉售可賺取價差公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金這就是明顯的傳銷公司嘛直銷公司可是這家公司現在"},{"start":98.57,"end":125.298,"text":"出現了一個大問題那公司涉嫌掏空六億董事長也坦誠犯刑我要跟你談的是那下面的這一些會員怎麼辦血本無歸在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們這個等一下請回答另外我們常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙"},{"start":127.33,"end":151.078,"text":"其實是層出不窮除了這一家公司以外還有另外一家叫做愛美全球這一家呢前一陣子也倒閉了倒閉了之後呢不到多久在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做世紀全球又出現了一家叫做世紀全球公司"},{"start":152.47,"end":176.078,"text":"兩家公司的地址是一樣賣的產品是一樣只是公司負責人換掉了那自救會呢愛美全球的自救會去上門去討債去尋找這個債主但是所求無門啊主委你們知道這些事情嗎我知道"},{"start":176.977,"end":184.389,"text":"你們知道 那你們有沒有主動介入調查你們現在調查的結果 調查的程度到哪裡可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下"},{"start":186.129,"end":214.04,"text":"首先針對第一個案子那個部分掏空的部分我們有去了解當然後續我們還是持續觀察有沒有違反多層層傳銷管理辦法規定那我們了解基本上是掏空公司還有公司股東之間的一個股權的爭議那我們有問過他們目前公司了解一下我們目前公司的營運狀況目前還是正常但是我們事後還是會持續去觀察看有沒有涉及到傷害到這個傳銷商的權益的一些事項那第二個案子"},{"start":215.4,"end":233.393,"text":"當然涉及違法吸金的部分這部分我們向來都是由法務部依照犯罪行為來處理那關於委員所關切的這些問題我想委員也知道在多層次傳消在公平會的報備制度底下我們要求他提供資訊在他設立的時候必須提供資訊我們要確認這個資訊的真實性"},{"start":235.655,"end":261.523,"text":"那當然如果後續他是不是片面的去改變他的資訊的內容理論上來講他一定要跟我們報備如果你要變更產品你覺得他如果片面改變資訊內容他會跟你們報備嗎這個報備這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久到底多層次傳銷是要用使用報備制還是使用審查制這個兩派的說法論戰非常的激烈但是眼前看到的多層次傳銷"},{"start":263.484,"end":292.069,"text":"的管理報備制的管理顯然出現了極大的漏洞跟極大的問題而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資真詐騙的事情層出不窮喔對你們公平會來講你們叫做疲於奔命啊那你手上也沒有上方保健可以去處理他們就算你要處理你的量能基本上也是不足的就你公平會來講你每年只能積查100家左右100家已經很了不起了"},{"start":293.001,"end":316.118,"text":"那全台灣報備的 或者是全台灣在做這些直銷的大概有幾百家 幾千家你們量能在哪裡你每次都是講我事後知道 看到報導了知道或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道然後呢 你給他裁罰 對不對你會給他裁罰 你會去調查那裁罰了以後呢"},{"start":317.396,"end":336.724,"text":"我們事後的裁法當然像這個案子我目前已經有在立案調查調查這個事情那當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續的做這個業務的監理了解他有沒有按照我們當初裁法所要求來做那第二個案子的部分我想委員建議的這些相關的"},{"start":338.084,"end":362.701,"text":"积极的一点的一种报备的一个制度这个其实还是回归到我们刚刚委员谈到的报备许可制的问题其实我觉得现在已经走到这个阶段我们应该认真的思考包括你们公平会应该认真的思考到底多层次传销是不是要再持续使用报备制如果把它改成审查制对于消费者或者是对于这些会员来讲"},{"start":363.562,"end":380.929,"text":"是不是會比較有保障而且對於你們的監管是不是會比較與法有據這個是你們要認真考慮的一點我再來跟你講第三個案子你剛剛講到那些不管是報備 審查我現在跟你講到第三個叫做強迫推銷"},{"start":382.819,"end":402.505,"text":"街頭強迫推銷過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團因為他這次在路邊發問卷免費贈送保養品 試用品你們把他裁罰叫做依公平會的這個第25條顯示公平行為重罰新台幣2500萬元"},{"start":405.765,"end":434.021,"text":"過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過那我想請教最近媒體也多方的報導甚至在消保會消保官也累計到了15件類似行為的申訴他是在中山商圈有一家這個叫何瑞公司推銷什麼抹鹽硬強迫你然後把你拉進去就要買商品這你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":435.97,"end":442.975,"text":"好 那個我跟委員報告 這個案子沒錯 就是在 在消保會所以還沒有送到公平會來 那他有沒有觸犯"},{"start":444.851,"end":468.062,"text":"當然這個個案我們要進行調查才會知道但是跟委員報告一下這個所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件除了剛剛委員點到25條要一定的數量以外另外就是說他的行為必須要讓這個受害人已經達到脅迫的一個程度讓他無法抗拒那我有處理一些案子基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候他可以輕易的就拒絕那就可以規避掉了"},{"start":468.422,"end":490.997,"text":"所以有時候那個階段基本上它就可以規避掉所以如果沒有達到那個強制的程度的話我們是比較沒辦法用25條去處理這種強迫推銷這個主委我覺得是這樣你這樣講大概很多消費者大概內心都不太能夠接受我希望你們能夠主動的去調查這個案子這新聞媒體也都有報導它有沒有強制"},{"start":491.477,"end":502.325,"text":"他把他拉用街頭抹鹽推銷然後把他拉進去店裡面然後就開了一瓶保養品說叫他立刻試用打開了之後就告訴他你已經打開了所以你不能退貨"},{"start":504.4,"end":531.553,"text":"那這有沒有強迫推銷所以好 那我就請你們去調查嘛如果像類似這樣的事情我覺得這個已經層出不窮至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的多層次傳銷法你沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團假投資真詐騙那你這樣子的公平交易法至少你們可以做得到吧如果連這個都做不到的話那我真的不知道"},{"start":532.864,"end":556.84,"text":"公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西你不能都說你們沒有主動的調查權等等的法令在那裡其實法令是可以修改的法令是可以往前更進一步的當你知道有這麼多的受害案件的時候其實我們不應該被動的去等待人家來提供資訊這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察那這個案子我們會後續會去進一步的了解OK 好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":84,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時29分）謝謝主席，是不是請一下陳主委？"],["主席：我們請陳主委，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委好。主委，我想每次談到公平會，其實大部分我們都會談到直銷，到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞、有沒有問題？對於公平會來講，你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡？我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢，都會面對到很多委員的提問。主委，你知道這家公司嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我最近才聽到。"],["邱委員議瑩：最近才聽到？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：最近才知道。"],["邱委員議瑩：聽說最近蠻紅的，不過今天各大媒體都在報導，因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司，這家公司已經幾乎面臨倒閉。涉嫌掏空公司，這個另外有法令去處理，為什麼今天在這裡問你？因為他是一家直銷公司。他的會員入會要繳8萬8,000塊，然後還有商品進貨價等等，會員轉售可賺取價差，公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金，這就是明顯的傳銷公司（直銷公司）。可是這家公司現在出現了一個大問題，公司涉嫌掏空6億，董事長也坦承犯行，我要跟你談的是，下面的這一些會員怎麼辦？血本無歸，在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們？這個等一下請您回答。","另外，我們常常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙其實是層出不窮，除了這一家公司以外，還有另外一家叫做「愛美全球」，這一家前一陣子也倒閉了，倒閉之後過不了多久，在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做「世紀全球」，又出現了一家叫做「世紀全球公司」。兩家公司的地址是一樣的，賣的產品也是一樣，只是公司負責人換掉了，那自救會呢？愛美全球的自救會上門去討債，去尋找這個債主，但是索求無門。主委，你們知道這些事情嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我知道。"],["邱委員議瑩：你們知道？你們有沒有主動介入調查？你們現在調查的結果、調查的程度到哪裡，可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：首先針對第一個案子，掏空的部分我們有去了解，當然後續我們還是要持續觀察有沒有違反多層次傳銷管理辦法的規定，我們的了解，基本上是掏空公司，還有公司股東之間的股權爭議。我們有問過他們，了解一下，目前公司的營運狀況還是正常，但是我們事後還是會持續觀察，看有沒有涉及傷害到傳銷商權益的一些事項。","第二個案子，涉及違法吸金的部分向來都是由法務部依照犯罪行為來處理。關於委員所關切的這些問題，我想委員也知道，多層次傳銷在公平會的報備制度底下，我們要求它提供資訊，在它設立的時候必須提供資訊，我們要確認這個資訊的真實性。當然如果後續是不是片面改變它的資訊內容，理論上講，它一樣要向我們報備，如果要變更產品、變更……"],["邱委員議瑩：你覺得它如果片面改變資訊內容，會跟你們報備嗎？這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久，到底多層次傳銷是要使用報備制還是使用審查制？這兩派說法論戰非常激烈！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是眼前看到多層次傳銷報備制的管理顯然出現極大的漏洞跟極大的問題，而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資、真詐騙的事情層出不窮。對你們公平會來講，你們叫做疲於奔命，你手上也沒有尚方寶劍可以去處理他們，就算你要處理，你的量能基本上也是不足的。就公平會來講，每一年只能稽查一百家左右，一百家已經很了不起了，全臺灣報備的或者是全臺灣在做直銷的大概有幾百家、幾千家，你們的量能在哪裡？每次都是講事後知道、看到報導了知道，或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道，然後呢？你給它裁罰，對不對？你會給它裁罰、你會去調查，那裁罰了以後呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：事後的裁罰，像這個案子目前已經有在立案調查了，當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續做這個業務的監理，了解它有沒有按照我們當初裁罰所要求的來做。第二個案子的部分，我想委員建議相關的積極一點的報備制度，這個其實還是回歸到剛剛委員談到的報備許可制的問題，因為在報備制……"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我覺得現在已經走到這個階段，我們應該認真思考，包括你們公平會應該認真思考，到底多層次傳銷是不是要再持續使用報備制？如果把它改成審查制，對於消費者或者是對於這些會員來講，是不是會比較有保障？而且對於你們的監管，是不是會比較於法有據？這個是你們要認真考慮的一點。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我再來跟你講第三個案子，你剛剛講到那些，不管是報備啦！審查啦！我現在跟你講到第三個，叫做強迫推銷──街頭強迫推銷，過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團，因為在路邊發問卷，免費贈送保養品、試用品，你們把它裁罰，依公平交易法第二十五條「顯失公平」行為重罰新臺幣2,500萬元。過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過，那我想請教，最近媒體也多方報導，甚至在消保會，消保官也累計到15件類似行為的申訴，那是在中山商圈，有一家叫「荷芮」的公司推銷什麼抹鹽，強迫民眾，然後把人拉進去，就要買商品，這你們有掌握嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我跟委員報告，關於這個案子，沒錯……"],["邱委員議瑩：還在消保會，所以還沒有送到公平會來，那它有沒有觸犯公平會的任何法令？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個個案我們要進行調查以後才會知道。"],["邱委員議瑩：有沒有觸犯公平交易法？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：但是跟委員報告一下，所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件，除了剛剛委員點到第二十五條要有一定數量以外，另外就是它的行為必須要讓受害人已經達到脅迫的程度，讓他無法抗拒。我們有處理一些案子，基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候是可以輕易地就拒絕，那就可以規避掉了，有時候那個階段就可以規避掉。所以如果沒有達到那個強制程度的話，我們是比較沒辦法用第二十五條去處理這種強迫推銷。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，我覺得是這樣，你這樣講，大概很多消費者內心都不太能夠接受。我希望你們能夠主動去調查這個案子，新聞媒體也都有報導，它有沒有強制？在街頭抹鹽、推銷，然後把他拉進去店裡面，開了一瓶保養品，叫他立刻試用，打開之後就告訴他已經打開了，所以不能退貨，這有沒有強迫推銷？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這個還是要再就個案詳細情況了解。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我就請你們去調查嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會進一步去了解。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果類似這樣的事情，我覺得這個已經層出不窮，至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的，多層次傳銷法沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團，假投資、真詐騙！但是這樣子的公平交易法，至少你們可以做得到吧？如果連這個都做不到的話，那我真的不知道公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西？你不能都說，哎呀！你們沒有主動調查權等等的，法令在那裡，其實法令是可以修改的，法令是可以往前更進一步的，當你知道有這麼多受害案件的時候，其實我們不應該被動等待人家來提供資訊。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察，這個案子我們後續會去進一步了解。"],["邱委員議瑩：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員質詢，謝謝主委。麻煩議瑩。","請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-4","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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