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00:00:35,312\n這個也是有一點小小的心理障礙本席針對部長最近在國外的行程辛苦了不過就南非代表處的議題\n\n3\n00:00:36,812 --> 00:00:52,192\n我想至少提醒過外交部兩次了那應該要注意館產的保護以及駐外人員的安全那在因為我們看到南非外交部因為之前其實有提一直在提這個部分\n\n4\n00:00:53,093 --> 00:01:02,478\n南非外交部的官網上面台灣在南非的兩個機構已經分別被改名駐約翰尼斯堡台北商務辦公處還有駐開普敦台北商務辦事處這個都已經直接南非就把我們改掉了\n\n5\n00:01:10,422 --> 00:01:22,796\n那也同時把台灣從總外交關係就我們中華民國總外交關係降為單純的經貿往來更刪除了駐南非廖大使的姓名改成其他的台灣所有派駐的職員\n\n6\n00:01:25,459 --> 00:01:44,349\n那甚至裡面還有人已經去世了可是他的名字還在上面所以這對我們來說其實是一種恥辱那在九月底的時候政府曾經有提到說對於南非的半導體晶片跟記憶體等等涉及四十幾家\n\n7\n00:01:45,930 --> 00:02:04,822\n跟半導體生產鏈有關的產品要做出口管制曾經也被媒體稱讚政府也運用台灣半導體優勢把它轉換為外交籌碼用晶片制裁的手段可是在兩天之後我們又暫停了晶片出口管制的這樣的預告理由是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:07,376 --> 00:02:25,938\n就是因為南非我們當然嚴正交涉之後他也有一些回應包括對他們對1998年我們簽訂的這個台非的所謂雙邊關係的協議那是有法律基礎的他們要片面的變更我們是嚴正抗議以外那也展開交涉所以他也提了一個版本\n\n9\n00:02:26,766 --> 00:02:28,787\n什麼版本就是他想簽新的類似協議可是我們現在說的實質剛剛部長說實質因為你做了制裁以後然後兩天以後就沒了嘛沒了以後我們說要他想要簽新的可是他現在就是照現在這個樣子\n\n10\n00:02:45,655 --> 00:02:54,900\n我們的大使的名詞也沒有在他們的官網上面我們自己的也被改掉我們甚至變成辦事處、辦公處而已那像這樣子還有什麼效果後來我們還把這個制裁的武器從半導體變成蘋果蘋果是去年他們因為有蠹蟲因為有那些進口我們就其實是進口商就陸續停止了只是現在看到那個數字\n\n11\n00:03:12,233 --> 00:03:35,513\n所以那結果呢因為我們本來還以為你蘋果是拿來當成制裁的武器那顯然不是那我們現在要的是實質的因為剛剛甚至有委員說我們的媒體宣傳費啦或者我們很多很多實質的我們的這些外交努力大家看到努力要讓大家看到成果那努力才有意義\n\n12\n00:03:36,454 --> 00:03:45,022\n我們不斷的增加外交預算可是我們看到的實質成果並沒有展現出來那個不是用媒體講就好了你講過以後常常破功那更糟所以我們現在要的是實質的成果南非這個問題我們希望這個跟金磚峰會有關嗎我們判斷有關\n\n13\n00:03:56,718 --> 00:04:16,371\n所以我們可以怎麼做跟再來的G20也有關所以我們可以怎麼做因為你不可能你現在已經什麼都是被動的都被你該做的作為我們自己就主動把它拿掉了那你還有什麼這些都是我們可能反制的項目也都做好評估跟跨部會的協調本來你們覺得有效可能你自動就把它撤掉了那原因是什麼\n\n14\n00:04:21,364 --> 00:04:28,106\n因為他是在預告因為還沒有正式進入公告我們已經被改掉了官網已經看不到了對因為他們就是國貿署可以怎麼做我們已經被改掉啦你如果要找大使看不到啦這是他們的配面行為我們並沒有同意就是說我們當然也有反制的作為我們也進行交涉包括很多的友邦也幫我們\n\n15\n00:04:47,810 --> 00:05:04,670\n所以最近當然也有一些涉及雙邊的外交人員的這個簽證的問題本來也是遇到困難那後來也是有一個互相的協商那我們當然知道他是基於什麼樣的原因南非政府會有這個作為我想全世界都知道背後\n\n16\n00:05:05,971 --> 00:05:25,983\n這個是中共的影響如果一直把中共拿來當成理由那其實我們編任何預算都沒有意義所以不要再拿中共因為我們有自己的作為嘛如果你連這個都沒有辦法做我們也不是一直告訴國人說我們的那個做得多好多好那你既然好你跟所有所有很多的國家都站在我們這邊都在幫我們可是當我們看到的結果是我們不斷的受到打壓\n\n17\n00:05:32,347 --> 00:05:42,031\n不斷的受到很多很多的這些限制可是我們完全沒有辦法伸展那如果沒有辦法的時候就說中共的問題那我們的外交成果是什麼這是我們提出來的因為時間的問題在這個部分我可能還要再提到的就是我們關稅的部分那下禮拜我們也會特別針對這個排專報可是在這裡先簡單的請教部長\n\n18\n00:05:59,099 --> 00:06:16,734\n就是說我們現在業務報告裡面已經提到行政院有經濟外交工作小組的部分可是我們看到我們現在有很多的努力尤其是在對外尤其國外的這些擴展我們看到日前其實有媒體報導而且還是日本媒體\n\n19\n00:06:20,137 --> 00:06:36,085\n日經亞洲他有提到說台灣跟加拿大澳洲日本還有紐西蘭洽簽貿易協議卡關政府一直在爭取至少四個東南亞主要經濟體希望達成經濟合作或投資協議\n\n20\n00:06:37,466 --> 00:06:38,607\n這個都被持觀望態度那這個報導裡面就是日本媒體的報導裡面認為說經貿協定缺乏實質的進展是政府的重大挫折\n\n21\n00:06:52,702 --> 00:07:12,707\n日本是我們很友好的國家我們不斷剛剛部長其實也提到不管是院長或者我們其他很多很多的管道跟日本其實我們的交流或者我們釋出的善意或者我們做出的妥協其實是非常多的可是日本媒體他這樣寫那尤其是加拿大他正在努力推動亞洲再平衡的戰略\n\n22\n00:07:17,079 --> 00:07:31,470\n之前的訊息加拿大其實早在4月就跟我們都已經談妥了可是他9月跟印尼已經簽訂協定了簽署了貿易協定跟我們卻完全沒有進展也沒有簽署原因是什麼\n\n23\n00:07:32,253 --> 00:07:36,216\n我跟委員報的這個報導是有錯誤的我們跟加拿大簽了很多包括經貿、科技甚至啊我現在說的是貿易的這個協定其他的我們不在乎我們說的是貿易協定因為我們在4月已經跟加拿大談成貿易協定的這些相關的談判為什麼遲遲沒有簽署而且日本媒體也這樣子的報導\n\n24\n00:07:59,315 --> 00:08:23,338\n不是我們跟他們已經添了這個PIVA那就是投資貿易促進的一個架構那現在就是說要參考美國英國啊我們希望有一個更完整的所以是要把那些整合起來並不是新的東西所以這個是一個堆積木的一個架構希望能夠形成有一個路徑圖啦\n\n25\n00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:28,483\n所以沒有所謂有什麼協議簽不成我們跟加拿大最近簽了超過我的判斷超過半打的協議我們講的是貿易協定因為其實印尼他都已經簽了他們跟我們的時間都是差不多我們既然4月已經簽訂這個部分其實還有一些推測\n\n26\n00:08:46,061 --> 00:08:49,143\n就是有一些風聲認為說可能是有某些力量比如說前任的我們現在的國安會的秘書長跟林部長你之間的一些摩擦或者有什麼樣子的一個問題產生所以不斷的對外放出消息不管我們台美的部分\n\n27\n00:09:07,776 --> 00:09:10,557\n因為我們不希望這樣的謠言造成我們國家的一些傷害跟損失這個部分我們在下個禮拜希望可以好好的來討論可是我們希望看到的我們知道大家都很努力可是我們還是希望尊重專業我們外交很多的養成\n\n28\n00:09:28,604 --> 00:09:36,267\n尤其外交人員的養成其實非常不容易他們經過所有的歷練還有他們的養成還有他們在國外所有相關的經驗其實都是非常難得的如果我們把這個破壞掉其實我們外交做得好其實是有困難的這個部分也請部長要去做一個妥適的安排而不是我們比較不希望就是外行領導內行因為這樣可能會讓我們碰到更多的挫折跟困難好不好我們會更努力謝謝馬文君委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2093\t5255\t謝謝主席 麻煩請林部長部長早 委員好\n19886\t35312\t這個也是有一點小小的心理障礙本席針對部長最近在國外的行程辛苦了不過就南非代表處的議題\n36812\t52192\t我想至少提醒過外交部兩次了那應該要注意館產的保護以及駐外人員的安全那在因為我們看到南非外交部因為之前其實有提一直在提這個部分\n53093\t62478\t南非外交部的官網上面台灣在南非的兩個機構已經分別被改名駐約翰尼斯堡台北商務辦公處還有駐開普敦台北商務辦事處這個都已經直接南非就把我們改掉了\n70422\t82796\t那也同時把台灣從總外交關係就我們中華民國總外交關係降為單純的經貿往來更刪除了駐南非廖大使的姓名改成其他的台灣所有派駐的職員\n85459\t104349\t那甚至裡面還有人已經去世了可是他的名字還在上面所以這對我們來說其實是一種恥辱那在九月底的時候政府曾經有提到說對於南非的半導體晶片跟記憶體等等涉及四十幾家\n105930\t124822\t跟半導體生產鏈有關的產品要做出口管制曾經也被媒體稱讚政府也運用台灣半導體優勢把它轉換為外交籌碼用晶片制裁的手段可是在兩天之後我們又暫停了晶片出口管制的這樣的預告理由是什麼\n127376\t145938\t就是因為南非我們當然嚴正交涉之後他也有一些回應包括對他們對1998年我們簽訂的這個台非的所謂雙邊關係的協議那是有法律基礎的他們要片面的變更我們是嚴正抗議以外那也展開交涉所以他也提了一個版本\n146766\t148787\t什麼版本就是他想簽新的類似協議可是我們現在說的實質剛剛部長說實質因為你做了制裁以後然後兩天以後就沒了嘛沒了以後我們說要他想要簽新的可是他現在就是照現在這個樣子\n165655\t174900\t我們的大使的名詞也沒有在他們的官網上面我們自己的也被改掉我們甚至變成辦事處、辦公處而已那像這樣子還有什麼效果後來我們還把這個制裁的武器從半導體變成蘋果蘋果是去年他們因為有蠹蟲因為有那些進口我們就其實是進口商就陸續停止了只是現在看到那個數字\n192233\t215513\t所以那結果呢因為我們本來還以為你蘋果是拿來當成制裁的武器那顯然不是那我們現在要的是實質的因為剛剛甚至有委員說我們的媒體宣傳費啦或者我們很多很多實質的我們的這些外交努力大家看到努力要讓大家看到成果那努力才有意義\n216454\t225022\t我們不斷的增加外交預算可是我們看到的實質成果並沒有展現出來那個不是用媒體講就好了你講過以後常常破功那更糟所以我們現在要的是實質的成果南非這個問題我們希望這個跟金磚峰會有關嗎我們判斷有關\n236718\t256371\t所以我們可以怎麼做跟再來的G20也有關所以我們可以怎麼做因為你不可能你現在已經什麼都是被動的都被你該做的作為我們自己就主動把它拿掉了那你還有什麼這些都是我們可能反制的項目也都做好評估跟跨部會的協調本來你們覺得有效可能你自動就把它撤掉了那原因是什麼\n261364\t268106\t因為他是在預告 因為還沒有正式進入公告我們已經被改掉了 官網已經看不到了對 因為他們就是國貿署可以怎麼做 我們已經被改掉啦你如果要找大使 看不到啦這是他們的配面行為 我們並沒有同意就是說我們當然也有反制的作為 我們也進行交涉包括很多的友邦也幫我們\n287810\t304670\t所以最近當然也有一些涉及雙邊的外交人員的這個簽證的問題本來也是遇到困難那後來也是有一個互相的協商那我們當然知道他是基於什麼樣的原因南非政府會有這個作為我想全世界都知道背後\n305971\t325983\t這個是中共的影響如果一直把中共拿來當成理由那其實我們編任何預算都沒有意義所以不要再拿中共因為我們有自己的作為嘛如果你連這個都沒有辦法做我們也不是一直告訴國人說我們的那個做得多好多好那你既然好你跟所有所有很多的國家都站在我們這邊都在幫我們可是當我們看到的結果是我們不斷的受到打壓\n332347\t342031\t不斷的受到很多很多的這些限制可是我們完全沒有辦法伸展那如果沒有辦法的時候就說中共的問題那我們的外交成果是什麼這是我們提出來的因為時間的問題在這個部分我可能還要再提到的就是我們關稅的部分那下禮拜我們也會特別針對這個排專報可是在這裡先簡單的請教部長\n359099\t376734\t就是說我們現在業務報告裡面已經提到行政院有經濟外交工作小組的部分可是我們看到我們現在有很多的努力尤其是在對外尤其國外的這些擴展我們看到日前其實有媒體報導而且還是日本媒體\n380137\t396085\t日經亞洲他有提到說台灣跟加拿大澳洲日本還有紐西蘭洽簽貿易協議卡關政府一直在爭取至少四個東南亞主要經濟體希望達成經濟合作或投資協議\n397466\t398607\t這個都被持觀望態度那這個報導裡面就是日本媒體的報導裡面認為說經貿協定缺乏實質的進展是政府的重大挫折\n412702\t432707\t日本是我們很友好的國家我們不斷剛剛部長其實也提到不管是院長或者我們其他很多很多的管道跟日本其實我們的交流或者我們釋出的善意或者我們做出的妥協其實是非常多的可是日本媒體他這樣寫那尤其是加拿大他正在努力推動亞洲再平衡的戰略\n437079\t451470\t之前的訊息加拿大其實早在4月就跟我們都已經談妥了可是他9月跟印尼已經簽訂協定了簽署了貿易協定跟我們卻完全沒有進展也沒有簽署原因是什麼\n452253\t456216\t我跟委員報的這個報導是有錯誤的我們跟加拿大簽了很多包括經貿、科技甚至啊我現在說的是貿易的這個協定其他的我們不在乎我們說的是貿易協定因為我們在4月已經跟加拿大談成貿易協定的這些相關的談判為什麼遲遲沒有簽署而且日本媒體也這樣子的報導\n479315\t503338\t不是 我們跟他們已經添了這個PIVA那就是投資貿易促進的一個架構那現在就是說要參考美國 英國啊我們希望有一個更完整的所以是要把那些整合起來 並不是新的東西所以這個是一個堆積木的一個架構希望能夠形成有一個路徑圖啦\n504079\t508483\t所以沒有所謂有什麼協議簽不成我們跟加拿大最近簽了超過我的判斷超過半打的協議我們講的是貿易協定因為其實印尼他都已經簽了他們跟我們的時間都是差不多我們既然4月已經簽訂這個部分其實還有一些推測\n526061\t529143\t就是有一些風聲認為說可能是有某些力量比如說前任的我們現在的國安會的秘書長跟林部長你之間的一些摩擦或者有什麼樣子的一個問題產生所以不斷的對外放出消息不管我們台美的部分\n547776\t550557\t因為我們不希望這樣的謠言造成我們國家的一些傷害跟損失這個部分我們在下個禮拜希望可以好好的來討論可是我們希望看到的我們知道大家都很努力可是我們還是希望尊重專業我們外交很多的養成\n568604\t576267\t尤其外交人員的養成其實非常不容易他們經過所有的歷練還有他們的養成還有他們在國外所有相關的經驗其實都是非常難得的如果我們把這個破壞掉其實我們外交做得好其實是有困難的這個部分也請部長要去做一個妥適的安排而不是我們比較不希望就是外行領導內行因為這樣可能會讓我們碰到更多的挫折跟困難好不好我們會更努力謝謝馬文君委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請林部長部長早 委員好\n這個也是有一點小小的心理障礙本席針對部長最近在國外的行程辛苦了不過就南非代表處的議題\n我想至少提醒過外交部兩次了那應該要注意館產的保護以及駐外人員的安全那在因為我們看到南非外交部因為之前其實有提一直在提這個部分\n南非外交部的官網上面台灣在南非的兩個機構已經分別被改名駐約翰尼斯堡台北商務辦公處還有駐開普敦台北商務辦事處這個都已經直接南非就把我們改掉了\n那也同時把台灣從總外交關係就我們中華民國總外交關係降為單純的經貿往來更刪除了駐南非廖大使的姓名改成其他的台灣所有派駐的職員\n那甚至裡面還有人已經去世了可是他的名字還在上面所以這對我們來說其實是一種恥辱那在九月底的時候政府曾經有提到說對於南非的半導體晶片跟記憶體等等涉及四十幾家\n跟半導體生產鏈有關的產品要做出口管制曾經也被媒體稱讚政府也運用台灣半導體優勢把它轉換為外交籌碼用晶片制裁的手段可是在兩天之後我們又暫停了晶片出口管制的這樣的預告理由是什麼\n就是因為南非我們當然嚴正交涉之後他也有一些回應包括對他們對1998年我們簽訂的這個台非的所謂雙邊關係的協議那是有法律基礎的他們要片面的變更我們是嚴正抗議以外那也展開交涉所以他也提了一個版本\n什麼版本就是他想簽新的類似協議可是我們現在說的實質剛剛部長說實質因為你做了制裁以後然後兩天以後就沒了嘛沒了以後我們說要他想要簽新的可是他現在就是照現在這個樣子\n我們的大使的名詞也沒有在他們的官網上面我們自己的也被改掉我們甚至變成辦事處、辦公處而已那像這樣子還有什麼效果後來我們還把這個制裁的武器從半導體變成蘋果蘋果是去年他們因為有蠹蟲因為有那些進口我們就其實是進口商就陸續停止了只是現在看到那個數字\n所以那結果呢因為我們本來還以為你蘋果是拿來當成制裁的武器那顯然不是那我們現在要的是實質的因為剛剛甚至有委員說我們的媒體宣傳費啦或者我們很多很多實質的我們的這些外交努力大家看到努力要讓大家看到成果那努力才有意義\n我們不斷的增加外交預算可是我們看到的實質成果並沒有展現出來那個不是用媒體講就好了你講過以後常常破功那更糟所以我們現在要的是實質的成果南非這個問題我們希望這個跟金磚峰會有關嗎我們判斷有關\n所以我們可以怎麼做跟再來的G20也有關所以我們可以怎麼做因為你不可能你現在已經什麼都是被動的都被你該做的作為我們自己就主動把它拿掉了那你還有什麼這些都是我們可能反制的項目也都做好評估跟跨部會的協調本來你們覺得有效可能你自動就把它撤掉了那原因是什麼\n因為他是在預告 因為還沒有正式進入公告我們已經被改掉了 官網已經看不到了對 因為他們就是國貿署可以怎麼做 我們已經被改掉啦你如果要找大使 看不到啦這是他們的配面行為 我們並沒有同意就是說我們當然也有反制的作為 我們也進行交涉包括很多的友邦也幫我們\n所以最近當然也有一些涉及雙邊的外交人員的這個簽證的問題本來也是遇到困難那後來也是有一個互相的協商那我們當然知道他是基於什麼樣的原因南非政府會有這個作為我想全世界都知道背後\n這個是中共的影響如果一直把中共拿來當成理由那其實我們編任何預算都沒有意義所以不要再拿中共因為我們有自己的作為嘛如果你連這個都沒有辦法做我們也不是一直告訴國人說我們的那個做得多好多好那你既然好你跟所有所有很多的國家都站在我們這邊都在幫我們可是當我們看到的結果是我們不斷的受到打壓\n不斷的受到很多很多的這些限制可是我們完全沒有辦法伸展那如果沒有辦法的時候就說中共的問題那我們的外交成果是什麼這是我們提出來的因為時間的問題在這個部分我可能還要再提到的就是我們關稅的部分那下禮拜我們也會特別針對這個排專報可是在這裡先簡單的請教部長\n就是說我們現在業務報告裡面已經提到行政院有經濟外交工作小組的部分可是我們看到我們現在有很多的努力尤其是在對外尤其國外的這些擴展我們看到日前其實有媒體報導而且還是日本媒體\n日經亞洲他有提到說台灣跟加拿大澳洲日本還有紐西蘭洽簽貿易協議卡關政府一直在爭取至少四個東南亞主要經濟體希望達成經濟合作或投資協議\n這個都被持觀望態度那這個報導裡面就是日本媒體的報導裡面認為說經貿協定缺乏實質的進展是政府的重大挫折\n日本是我們很友好的國家我們不斷剛剛部長其實也提到不管是院長或者我們其他很多很多的管道跟日本其實我們的交流或者我們釋出的善意或者我們做出的妥協其實是非常多的可是日本媒體他這樣寫那尤其是加拿大他正在努力推動亞洲再平衡的戰略\n之前的訊息加拿大其實早在4月就跟我們都已經談妥了可是他9月跟印尼已經簽訂協定了簽署了貿易協定跟我們卻完全沒有進展也沒有簽署原因是什麼\n我跟委員報的這個報導是有錯誤的我們跟加拿大簽了很多包括經貿、科技甚至啊我現在說的是貿易的這個協定其他的我們不在乎我們說的是貿易協定因為我們在4月已經跟加拿大談成貿易協定的這些相關的談判為什麼遲遲沒有簽署而且日本媒體也這樣子的報導\n不是 我們跟他們已經添了這個PIVA那就是投資貿易促進的一個架構那現在就是說要參考美國 英國啊我們希望有一個更完整的所以是要把那些整合起來 並不是新的東西所以這個是一個堆積木的一個架構希望能夠形成有一個路徑圖啦\n所以沒有所謂有什麼協議簽不成我們跟加拿大最近簽了超過我的判斷超過半打的協議我們講的是貿易協定因為其實印尼他都已經簽了他們跟我們的時間都是差不多我們既然4月已經簽訂這個部分其實還有一些推測\n就是有一些風聲認為說可能是有某些力量比如說前任的我們現在的國安會的秘書長跟林部長你之間的一些摩擦或者有什麼樣子的一個問題產生所以不斷的對外放出消息不管我們台美的部分\n因為我們不希望這樣的謠言造成我們國家的一些傷害跟損失這個部分我們在下個禮拜希望可以好好的來討論可是我們希望看到的我們知道大家都很努力可是我們還是希望尊重專業我們外交很多的養成\n尤其外交人員的養成其實非常不容易他們經過所有的歷練還有他們的養成還有他們在國外所有相關的經驗其實都是非常難得的如果我們把這個破壞掉其實我們外交做得好其實是有困難的這個部分也請部長要去做一個妥適的安排而不是我們比較不希望就是外行領導內行因為這樣可能會讓我們碰到更多的挫折跟困難好不好我們會更努力謝謝馬文君委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.093 --> 00:05.255\n謝謝主席麻煩請林部長部長早委員好\n\n00:19.886 --> 00:35.312\n這個也是有一點小小的心理障礙本席針對部長最近在國外的行程辛苦了不過就南非代表處的議題\n\n00:36.812 --> 00:52.192\n我想至少提醒過外交部兩次了那應該要注意館產的保護以及駐外人員的安全那在因為我們看到南非外交部因為之前其實有提一直在提這個部分\n\n00:53.093 --> 01:02.478\n南非外交部的官網上面台灣在南非的兩個機構已經分別被改名駐約翰尼斯堡台北商務辦公處還有駐開普敦台北商務辦事處這個都已經直接南非就把我們改掉了\n\n01:10.422 --> 01:22.796\n那也同時把台灣從總外交關係就我們中華民國總外交關係降為單純的經貿往來更刪除了駐南非廖大使的姓名改成其他的台灣所有派駐的職員\n\n01:25.459 --> 01:44.349\n那甚至裡面還有人已經去世了可是他的名字還在上面所以這對我們來說其實是一種恥辱那在九月底的時候政府曾經有提到說對於南非的半導體晶片跟記憶體等等涉及四十幾家\n\n01:45.930 --> 02:04.822\n跟半導體生產鏈有關的產品要做出口管制曾經也被媒體稱讚政府也運用台灣半導體優勢把它轉換為外交籌碼用晶片制裁的手段可是在兩天之後我們又暫停了晶片出口管制的這樣的預告理由是什麼\n\n02:07.376 --> 02:25.938\n就是因為南非我們當然嚴正交涉之後他也有一些回應包括對他們對1998年我們簽訂的這個台非的所謂雙邊關係的協議那是有法律基礎的他們要片面的變更我們是嚴正抗議以外那也展開交涉所以他也提了一個版本\n\n02:26.766 --> 02:28.787\n什麼版本就是他想簽新的類似協議可是我們現在說的實質剛剛部長說實質因為你做了制裁以後然後兩天以後就沒了嘛沒了以後我們說要他想要簽新的可是他現在就是照現在這個樣子\n\n02:45.655 --> 02:54.900\n我們的大使的名詞也沒有在他們的官網上面我們自己的也被改掉我們甚至變成辦事處、辦公處而已那像這樣子還有什麼效果後來我們還把這個制裁的武器從半導體變成蘋果蘋果是去年他們因為有蠹蟲因為有那些進口我們就其實是進口商就陸續停止了只是現在看到那個數字\n\n03:12.233 --> 03:35.513\n所以那結果呢因為我們本來還以為你蘋果是拿來當成制裁的武器那顯然不是那我們現在要的是實質的因為剛剛甚至有委員說我們的媒體宣傳費啦或者我們很多很多實質的我們的這些外交努力大家看到努力要讓大家看到成果那努力才有意義\n\n03:36.454 --> 03:45.022\n我們不斷的增加外交預算可是我們看到的實質成果並沒有展現出來那個不是用媒體講就好了你講過以後常常破功那更糟所以我們現在要的是實質的成果南非這個問題我們希望這個跟金磚峰會有關嗎我們判斷有關\n\n03:56.718 --> 04:16.371\n所以我們可以怎麼做跟再來的G20也有關所以我們可以怎麼做因為你不可能你現在已經什麼都是被動的都被你該做的作為我們自己就主動把它拿掉了那你還有什麼這些都是我們可能反制的項目也都做好評估跟跨部會的協調本來你們覺得有效可能你自動就把它撤掉了那原因是什麼\n\n04:21.364 --> 04:28.106\n因為他是在預告因為還沒有正式進入公告我們已經被改掉了官網已經看不到了對因為他們就是國貿署可以怎麼做我們已經被改掉啦你如果要找大使看不到啦這是他們的配面行為我們並沒有同意就是說我們當然也有反制的作為我們也進行交涉包括很多的友邦也幫我們\n\n04:47.810 --> 05:04.670\n所以最近當然也有一些涉及雙邊的外交人員的這個簽證的問題本來也是遇到困難那後來也是有一個互相的協商那我們當然知道他是基於什麼樣的原因南非政府會有這個作為我想全世界都知道背後\n\n05:05.971 --> 05:25.983\n這個是中共的影響如果一直把中共拿來當成理由那其實我們編任何預算都沒有意義所以不要再拿中共因為我們有自己的作為嘛如果你連這個都沒有辦法做我們也不是一直告訴國人說我們的那個做得多好多好那你既然好你跟所有所有很多的國家都站在我們這邊都在幫我們可是當我們看到的結果是我們不斷的受到打壓\n\n05:32.347 --> 05:42.031\n不斷的受到很多很多的這些限制可是我們完全沒有辦法伸展那如果沒有辦法的時候就說中共的問題那我們的外交成果是什麼這是我們提出來的因為時間的問題在這個部分我可能還要再提到的就是我們關稅的部分那下禮拜我們也會特別針對這個排專報可是在這裡先簡單的請教部長\n\n05:59.099 --> 06:16.734\n就是說我們現在業務報告裡面已經提到行政院有經濟外交工作小組的部分可是我們看到我們現在有很多的努力尤其是在對外尤其國外的這些擴展我們看到日前其實有媒體報導而且還是日本媒體\n\n06:20.137 --> 06:36.085\n日經亞洲他有提到說台灣跟加拿大澳洲日本還有紐西蘭洽簽貿易協議卡關政府一直在爭取至少四個東南亞主要經濟體希望達成經濟合作或投資協議\n\n06:37.466 --> 06:38.607\n這個都被持觀望態度那這個報導裡面就是日本媒體的報導裡面認為說經貿協定缺乏實質的進展是政府的重大挫折\n\n06:52.702 --> 07:12.707\n日本是我們很友好的國家我們不斷剛剛部長其實也提到不管是院長或者我們其他很多很多的管道跟日本其實我們的交流或者我們釋出的善意或者我們做出的妥協其實是非常多的可是日本媒體他這樣寫那尤其是加拿大他正在努力推動亞洲再平衡的戰略\n\n07:17.079 --> 07:31.470\n之前的訊息加拿大其實早在4月就跟我們都已經談妥了可是他9月跟印尼已經簽訂協定了簽署了貿易協定跟我們卻完全沒有進展也沒有簽署原因是什麼\n\n07:32.253 --> 07:36.216\n我跟委員報的這個報導是有錯誤的我們跟加拿大簽了很多包括經貿、科技甚至啊我現在說的是貿易的這個協定其他的我們不在乎我們說的是貿易協定因為我們在4月已經跟加拿大談成貿易協定的這些相關的談判為什麼遲遲沒有簽署而且日本媒體也這樣子的報導\n\n07:59.315 --> 08:23.338\n不是我們跟他們已經添了這個PIVA那就是投資貿易促進的一個架構那現在就是說要參考美國英國啊我們希望有一個更完整的所以是要把那些整合起來並不是新的東西所以這個是一個堆積木的一個架構希望能夠形成有一個路徑圖啦\n\n08:24.079 --> 08:28.483\n所以沒有所謂有什麼協議簽不成我們跟加拿大最近簽了超過我的判斷超過半打的協議我們講的是貿易協定因為其實印尼他都已經簽了他們跟我們的時間都是差不多我們既然4月已經簽訂這個部分其實還有一些推測\n\n08:46.061 --> 08:49.143\n就是有一些風聲認為說可能是有某些力量比如說前任的我們現在的國安會的秘書長跟林部長你之間的一些摩擦或者有什麼樣子的一個問題產生所以不斷的對外放出消息不管我們台美的部分\n\n09:07.776 --> 09:10.557\n因為我們不希望這樣的謠言造成我們國家的一些傷害跟損失這個部分我們在下個禮拜希望可以好好的來討論可是我們希望看到的我們知道大家都很努力可是我們還是希望尊重專業我們外交很多的養成\n\n09:28.604 --> 09:36.267\n尤其外交人員的養成其實非常不容易他們經過所有的歷練還有他們的養成還有他們在國外所有相關的經驗其實都是非常難得的如果我們把這個破壞掉其實我們外交做得好其實是有困難的這個部分也請部長要去做一個妥適的安排而不是我們比較不希望就是外行領導內行因為這樣可能會讓我們碰到更多的挫折跟困難好不好我們會更努力謝謝馬文君委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.093,"end":5.255,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請林部長部長早 委員好"},{"start":19.886,"end":35.312,"text":"這個也是有一點小小的心理障礙本席針對部長最近在國外的行程辛苦了不過就南非代表處的議題"},{"start":36.812,"end":52.192,"text":"我想至少提醒過外交部兩次了那應該要注意館產的保護以及駐外人員的安全那在因為我們看到南非外交部因為之前其實有提一直在提這個部分"},{"start":53.093,"end":62.478,"text":"南非外交部的官網上面台灣在南非的兩個機構已經分別被改名駐約翰尼斯堡台北商務辦公處還有駐開普敦台北商務辦事處這個都已經直接南非就把我們改掉了"},{"start":70.422,"end":82.796,"text":"那也同時把台灣從總外交關係就我們中華民國總外交關係降為單純的經貿往來更刪除了駐南非廖大使的姓名改成其他的台灣所有派駐的職員"},{"start":85.459,"end":104.349,"text":"那甚至裡面還有人已經去世了可是他的名字還在上面所以這對我們來說其實是一種恥辱那在九月底的時候政府曾經有提到說對於南非的半導體晶片跟記憶體等等涉及四十幾家"},{"start":105.93,"end":124.822,"text":"跟半導體生產鏈有關的產品要做出口管制曾經也被媒體稱讚政府也運用台灣半導體優勢把它轉換為外交籌碼用晶片制裁的手段可是在兩天之後我們又暫停了晶片出口管制的這樣的預告理由是什麼"},{"start":127.376,"end":145.938,"text":"就是因為南非我們當然嚴正交涉之後他也有一些回應包括對他們對1998年我們簽訂的這個台非的所謂雙邊關係的協議那是有法律基礎的他們要片面的變更我們是嚴正抗議以外那也展開交涉所以他也提了一個版本"},{"start":146.766,"end":148.787,"text":"什麼版本就是他想簽新的類似協議可是我們現在說的實質剛剛部長說實質因為你做了制裁以後然後兩天以後就沒了嘛沒了以後我們說要他想要簽新的可是他現在就是照現在這個樣子"},{"start":165.655,"end":174.9,"text":"我們的大使的名詞也沒有在他們的官網上面我們自己的也被改掉我們甚至變成辦事處、辦公處而已那像這樣子還有什麼效果後來我們還把這個制裁的武器從半導體變成蘋果蘋果是去年他們因為有蠹蟲因為有那些進口我們就其實是進口商就陸續停止了只是現在看到那個數字"},{"start":192.233,"end":215.513,"text":"所以那結果呢因為我們本來還以為你蘋果是拿來當成制裁的武器那顯然不是那我們現在要的是實質的因為剛剛甚至有委員說我們的媒體宣傳費啦或者我們很多很多實質的我們的這些外交努力大家看到努力要讓大家看到成果那努力才有意義"},{"start":216.454,"end":225.022,"text":"我們不斷的增加外交預算可是我們看到的實質成果並沒有展現出來那個不是用媒體講就好了你講過以後常常破功那更糟所以我們現在要的是實質的成果南非這個問題我們希望這個跟金磚峰會有關嗎我們判斷有關"},{"start":236.718,"end":256.371,"text":"所以我們可以怎麼做跟再來的G20也有關所以我們可以怎麼做因為你不可能你現在已經什麼都是被動的都被你該做的作為我們自己就主動把它拿掉了那你還有什麼這些都是我們可能反制的項目也都做好評估跟跨部會的協調本來你們覺得有效可能你自動就把它撤掉了那原因是什麼"},{"start":261.364,"end":268.106,"text":"因為他是在預告 因為還沒有正式進入公告我們已經被改掉了 官網已經看不到了對 因為他們就是國貿署可以怎麼做 我們已經被改掉啦你如果要找大使 看不到啦這是他們的配面行為 我們並沒有同意就是說我們當然也有反制的作為 我們也進行交涉包括很多的友邦也幫我們"},{"start":287.81,"end":304.67,"text":"所以最近當然也有一些涉及雙邊的外交人員的這個簽證的問題本來也是遇到困難那後來也是有一個互相的協商那我們當然知道他是基於什麼樣的原因南非政府會有這個作為我想全世界都知道背後"},{"start":305.971,"end":325.983,"text":"這個是中共的影響如果一直把中共拿來當成理由那其實我們編任何預算都沒有意義所以不要再拿中共因為我們有自己的作為嘛如果你連這個都沒有辦法做我們也不是一直告訴國人說我們的那個做得多好多好那你既然好你跟所有所有很多的國家都站在我們這邊都在幫我們可是當我們看到的結果是我們不斷的受到打壓"},{"start":332.347,"end":342.031,"text":"不斷的受到很多很多的這些限制可是我們完全沒有辦法伸展那如果沒有辦法的時候就說中共的問題那我們的外交成果是什麼這是我們提出來的因為時間的問題在這個部分我可能還要再提到的就是我們關稅的部分那下禮拜我們也會特別針對這個排專報可是在這裡先簡單的請教部長"},{"start":359.099,"end":376.734,"text":"就是說我們現在業務報告裡面已經提到行政院有經濟外交工作小組的部分可是我們看到我們現在有很多的努力尤其是在對外尤其國外的這些擴展我們看到日前其實有媒體報導而且還是日本媒體"},{"start":380.137,"end":396.085,"text":"日經亞洲他有提到說台灣跟加拿大澳洲日本還有紐西蘭洽簽貿易協議卡關政府一直在爭取至少四個東南亞主要經濟體希望達成經濟合作或投資協議"},{"start":397.466,"end":398.607,"text":"這個都被持觀望態度那這個報導裡面就是日本媒體的報導裡面認為說經貿協定缺乏實質的進展是政府的重大挫折"},{"start":412.702,"end":432.707,"text":"日本是我們很友好的國家我們不斷剛剛部長其實也提到不管是院長或者我們其他很多很多的管道跟日本其實我們的交流或者我們釋出的善意或者我們做出的妥協其實是非常多的可是日本媒體他這樣寫那尤其是加拿大他正在努力推動亞洲再平衡的戰略"},{"start":437.079,"end":451.47,"text":"之前的訊息加拿大其實早在4月就跟我們都已經談妥了可是他9月跟印尼已經簽訂協定了簽署了貿易協定跟我們卻完全沒有進展也沒有簽署原因是什麼"},{"start":452.253,"end":456.216,"text":"我跟委員報的這個報導是有錯誤的我們跟加拿大簽了很多包括經貿、科技甚至啊我現在說的是貿易的這個協定其他的我們不在乎我們說的是貿易協定因為我們在4月已經跟加拿大談成貿易協定的這些相關的談判為什麼遲遲沒有簽署而且日本媒體也這樣子的報導"},{"start":479.315,"end":503.338,"text":"不是 我們跟他們已經添了這個PIVA那就是投資貿易促進的一個架構那現在就是說要參考美國 英國啊我們希望有一個更完整的所以是要把那些整合起來 並不是新的東西所以這個是一個堆積木的一個架構希望能夠形成有一個路徑圖啦"},{"start":504.079,"end":508.483,"text":"所以沒有所謂有什麼協議簽不成我們跟加拿大最近簽了超過我的判斷超過半打的協議我們講的是貿易協定因為其實印尼他都已經簽了他們跟我們的時間都是差不多我們既然4月已經簽訂這個部分其實還有一些推測"},{"start":526.061,"end":529.143,"text":"就是有一些風聲認為說可能是有某些力量比如說前任的我們現在的國安會的秘書長跟林部長你之間的一些摩擦或者有什麼樣子的一個問題產生所以不斷的對外放出消息不管我們台美的部分"},{"start":547.776,"end":550.557,"text":"因為我們不希望這樣的謠言造成我們國家的一些傷害跟損失這個部分我們在下個禮拜希望可以好好的來討論可是我們希望看到的我們知道大家都很努力可是我們還是希望尊重專業我們外交很多的養成"},{"start":568.604,"end":576.267,"text":"尤其外交人員的養成其實非常不容易他們經過所有的歷練還有他們的養成還有他們在國外所有相關的經驗其實都是非常難得的如果我們把這個破壞掉其實我們外交做得好其實是有困難的這個部分也請部長要去做一個妥適的安排而不是我們比較不希望就是外行領導內行因為這樣可能會讓我們碰到更多的挫折跟困難好不好我們會更努力謝謝馬文君委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請林部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：這個也是有一點小小的心理障礙。本席針對部長最近在國外的行程，你辛苦了！"],["林部長佳龍：應該的。"],["馬委員文君：不過就南非代表處的議題，我想至少提醒過外交部兩次了，應該要注意館產的保護，以及駐外人員的安全，因為我們看到南非外交部的官網上面，之前其實有一直在提這個部分，臺灣在南非的兩個機構已經分別被改名為「駐約翰尼斯堡台北商務辦事處」，還有「駐開普敦台北商務辦事處」，南非都已經直接就把我們的改掉了，也同時把我們中華民國從準外交關係降為單純的經貿往來，更刪除了駐南非廖大使的姓名，改成其他台灣所有派駐職員，甚至裡面還有人已經去世了，可是他的名字還在上面，這對我們來說其實是一種恥辱！","在9月底的時候，政府曾經有提到，對於南非的半導體、晶片與記憶體等涉及四十幾家與半導體生產鏈有關的產品要做出口管制；曾經也被媒體稱讚，政府也運用臺灣半導體優勢，把它轉換為外交籌碼，用晶片制裁的手段；可是在兩天之後，我們又暫停了晶片出口管制這樣的預告，理由是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：就是因為我們與南非嚴正交涉之後，當然他也有一些回應，包括對1998年我們簽訂的所謂臺非雙邊關係的協議，那是有法律基礎的，他們要片面的變更，我們除嚴正抗議以外，也展開交涉，所以他也提了一個版本。"],["馬委員文君：什麼版本？"],["林部長佳龍：就是他想簽新的類似協議。"],["馬委員文君：可是我們現在說的實質，剛剛部長說的實質，因為政府做了制裁以後，兩天以後就沒了，你說他想要簽新的，可是照現在這個樣子，我們大使的名字也沒有在他們的官網上面，我們自己的也被改掉，甚至變成「辦事處」而已，像這樣子，還有什麼效果？後來我們還把這個制裁的武器從半導體變成蘋果！"],["林部長佳龍：蘋果是因為去年進口他們的蘋果有蠹蛾，所以我們就停止進口了，只是現在看到那個數字。"],["馬委員文君：結果呢？因為我們本來還以為你是把蘋果拿來當成制裁的武器，但顯然不是，不是……"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有盤點過。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在要的是實質的，因為剛剛甚至有委員說，我們的媒體宣傳費有實質的成果或者我們有很多實質的外交努力，努力要讓大家看到成果，努力才有意義，我們不斷的增加外交預算，可是實質成果並沒有展現出來，那個不是用媒體講就好了，你講過以後常常破功，那更糟！所以我們現在要的是實質的成果。南非這個問題跟金磚峰會有關嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們判斷有關……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們可以怎麼做？"],["林部長佳龍：跟再來的G20也有關。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們可以怎麼做？因為你現在什麼都是被動的，你該做的作為，自己就主動拿掉了，那你還有什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：這些都是我們可能反制的項目，也都做好評估及跨部會的協調。"],["馬委員文君：本來你們覺得有效，可是你自動就把它撤掉了，原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為那是在預告，還沒有正式進入公告，這是經濟部……"],["馬委員文君：我們的已經被改掉了，官網已經看不到了耶！"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為他們就是……"],["馬委員文君：對，那可以怎麼做？"],["林部長佳龍：國貿署……"],["馬委員文君：可以怎麼做？我們的已經被改掉了，你如果要找大使，看不到了，要找我們外交部的……"],["林部長佳龍：這是他們的片面行為，我們並沒有同意，我們當然也有反制的作為，我們也進行交涉，包括很多的友邦也幫我們，最近當然也有一些涉及雙邊外交人員的簽證問題，本來也是遇到困難，後來也是有一個互相的協商，我們當然知道基於什麼樣的原因，南非政府會有這個作為，我想全世界都知道，背後是中共的影響……"],["馬委員文君：部長，如果一直把中共拿來當成理由，其實我們編任何預算都沒有意義，所以不要再拿中共當成理由，因為我們有自己的作為，現在你連這個都沒有辦法做，我們不是一直告訴國人，我們的這個做得多好，既然好，很多國家都站在我們這邊，都在幫我們，可是我們看到的結果是我們不斷地受到打壓、不斷地受到很多的限制，我們完全沒有辦法伸展，如果沒有辦法的時候，就說是中共的問題，那我們的外交成果是什麼？這是我們提出來的，因為時間的問題。","在這個部分，我可能還要再提到的就是關稅的部分，下禮拜我們也會特別針對這個排專報，可是在這裡先簡單的請教部長，就是現在你們的業務報告裡面已經提到行政院有建立經濟外交工作小組的部分，我們也看到我們現在有很多的努力，尤其是在國外的擴展，可是我們看到日前有媒體報導，而且還是日本媒體。日經亞洲提到，臺灣跟加拿大、澳洲、日本，還有紐西蘭，洽簽貿易協議卡關，政府一直在爭取至少4個東南亞主要經濟體，希望達成經濟合作或投資協議，都被持觀望態度。這個日本媒體的報導裡面認為經貿協定缺乏實質的進展是政府的重大挫折。日本是我們很友好的國家，剛剛部長其實也提到，不管是院長，或者我們其他很多管道，對日本，我們的交流，或者我們釋出的善意，或者我們做出的妥協，其實是非常多的，可是日本媒體這樣寫，尤其是加拿大，他正在努力推動亞洲再平衡的戰略，據之前的訊息，加拿大早在4月就跟我們都已經談妥了，可是他9月跟印尼已經簽署了貿易協定，跟我們卻完全沒有進展，也沒有簽署。原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，這個報導是有錯誤的，我們跟加拿大簽了很多，包括經貿、科技，甚至……"],["馬委員文君：我現在說的是貿易協定，其他的我們不在乎，我們說的是貿易協定，因為我們在4月已經跟加拿大談成貿易協定這些相關的談判，為什麼遲遲沒有簽署？"],["林部長佳龍：不是。"],["馬委員文君：而且日本媒體也這樣報導。"],["林部長佳龍：不是，我們跟他們已經簽了FIPA，就是投資貿易促進的一個架構，現在就是要參考美國、英國，我們希望有一個更完整的，是要把那些整合起來，並不是新的東西，所以這是一個堆積木的架構，希望能夠形成、有一個路徑圖，所以沒有所謂協議簽不成，我判斷我們跟加拿大最近簽了超過半打的協議。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們講得很清楚，我們講的是貿易協定，因為其實印尼都已經簽了，他們跟我們的時間都是差不多的，我們既然4月已經簽訂了，這個部分其實還有一些推測，就是有一些風聲認為可能是有某些力量，比如說我們現在國安會的秘書長跟你林部長之間的一些摩擦，或者有什麼樣的問題產生，所以不斷地對外放出消息，不管我們臺美的部分……"],["林部長佳龍：絕對是謠言。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們不希望這樣的謠言造成我們國家的一些傷害跟損失，這個部分希望我們在下個禮拜可以好好地來討論。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：我們知道大家都很努力，可是我們希望看到的還是尊重專業，我們外交很多的養成，尤其外交人員的養成其實非常不容易，他們經過的所有歷練，還有他們在國外所有相關的經驗，其實都是非常難得的。如果我們把這個破壞掉，我們外交要做得好，其實是有困難的，這個部分也請部長要去做一個妥適的安排，而不是……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：我們比較不希望的就是外行領導內行，因為這樣可能會讓我們碰到更多的挫折跟困難，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會更努力。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，謝謝部長。","近日透過媒體放話在外交上引起的事情，我們委員會表達深切的關切，這些管道的來源、這些內容，我們希望適可而止，這個不妥，這是國家利益，跟黨派無關。謝謝。","接下來詢答的委員請徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00001"}}}