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00:00:48,311\n要在呈現方式要規避或者避免立法院的監督為什麼我這樣講因為很多都是過程的描述沒有實際數據很多只是很抽象的敘述\n\n3\n00:00:50,032 --> 00:01:10,158\n然後並沒有這個到底你裁罰多少然後主動立案有多少然後有多少集合申報準駁的比例等等我們需要是一個量化的數據不過量化數據當然事後跟你一樣可以但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視嘛除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料或者你們數據資料很蒼白\n\n4\n00:01:12,571 --> 00:01:39,308\n你才不願意去呈現出來用一些文字的描述抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情所以三四會期都是這樣的報告內容我覺得是不是下個會期你們的報告我認為我建議是應該做一些調整那個跟委員報告委員所提到的這些相關的數字量化其實我們都有啦都有一些統計只是說因為在這邊的業務報告基於時間等等的考慮時間\n\n5\n00:01:41,299 --> 00:02:09,450\n時間不夠充裕嗎沒有就是我們當然書面上的呈現是沒有問題所以委員會建議我們會納入考慮這本來就你應該要呈現不是說時間問題不是你可以決定時間問題主席就願意讓你做報告嘛而且我們是要需要你這個提供的數據才做一些才能對你們的工作績效做一些的監督是我們下一次的報告就會比照辦理就是把這個相關的量化資料把它放進去而且你要有成效的報告\n\n6\n00:02:10,988 --> 00:02:36,136\n那KPI要有一個詳細的KPI的這個制度每一個你的施政項目都有個KPI的標準結案數、主動立案數、拆罰件數跟金額然後移送哪些單位比如說不實廣告關於藥品類關於這個保健食品類你要移送給衛福部對不對移送幾件\n\n7\n00:02:37,506 --> 00:02:52,101\n我就問這個例子每天都看到這個電視頻道都有這個大量這高密度高頻率長時間的所謂介於模糊這個地帶的保健食品具有這個誇張療效10秒鐘就入睡\n\n8\n00:02:57,911 --> 00:03:06,308\n這個也是不實廣告啊對不對是啊我們有處理過我們有處分過一些案子是你處分嗎有些案子是我們處分就是說他做不但誇張的\n\n9\n00:03:08,854 --> 00:03:35,152\n你搞不清楚狀況沒有療效的部分是衛福部啦但是我很清楚但是你處分有這些不實廣告針對這個保健食品或者藥品的嗎沒有吧我是要你提供你移送多少件數給衛福部嘛是這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你到底針對不實廣告做了哪些事情是這個我們在下一次我們會提供我看不用等一下下一次你這個會後就應該提供給我們\n\n10\n00:03:37,490 --> 00:03:59,194\n我是不想用這個臨時提案來寫這本來就是應該你要呈現的你說你都針對不實廣告做了哪些事情相關部會比方說這個內政部管理這個不特產品銷售房屋銷售你們移送了幾件裁罰了幾件然後這個衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品你們移送了幾件嘛\n\n11\n00:04:00,356 --> 00:04:16,352\n這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你的績效到底符不符合這個這個大家的期待嘛你用一些抽象的概念抽象的文字敘述我覺得這個我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做了哪些事情所以這部分我希望說\n\n12\n00:04:17,813 --> 00:04:46,112\n主委你可以再檢討一下我們會改進我們會把這個東西納入我希望說下個會期這個呈現一定要以數據為主而不是你用列舉的方式把你的這些業務項目呈現出來很精確的把每一項數據說出來另外你們這個每年春節或者是中秋有執行農畜與重點民生物資的產銷試礦調查\n\n13\n00:04:48,423 --> 00:05:12,729\n這個部分今年中秋過了嘛是那你們有召開房市人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎有有有那會議的結論呢就是我們在中秋節去查過了嘛目前物價還算是並沒有出現有所謂聯合壟斷烘台物價的情況也是聯合是你們聯合還是聯合各縣市政府這是我們自己查的我們自己查了幾次\n\n14\n00:05:14,690 --> 00:05:39,778\n我們查了一個月的時間啦就是分批去查那有沒有查核報告我們有查核報告啊有我們公布在網上什麼時候去查你說查了一個月查了哪些品項這些都有有你要提供出來啊我們是不是會後可以給委員針對中秋啊你們執行這個民生物資產消失亡調查的狀況\n\n15\n00:05:41,519 --> 00:06:08,932\n你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料寫那麼多的工作的項目到底你有沒有做好有沒有做對另外啊第三個問題請教深層式AI是未來一個你們的一個競爭的一個模式這些你們要跟國際合作然後你們要有前瞻性的這個相關的政策準備你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣這個徵詢外界意見就是我們在收集\n\n16\n00:06:09,862 --> 00:06:20,199\n各界的意见什么时候会有一个初步的一个方案出来领选征询的阶段已经结束了我们现在会诊意见那会诊意见以后我们会提到委员会去讨论那时间表要有啊\n\n17\n00:06:21,646 --> 00:06:41,103\n因為要經過委員會討論所以就比較難有一個區別委員會是你召開的啊是沒錯但是委員的意見會不一樣那總要有個時間表你不能這個無限期之後之後我還在蒐集意見蒐集意見這甚至AI是瞬息外面每天都有新的進展我們蒐集意見已經結束了我們現在是在延續這些意見然後在跟公平法的關係然後我們會送到委員會去討論\n\n18\n00:06:41,684 --> 00:07:07,094\n那最後是什麼樣的成果最後我們要看延續出來的結果怎麼樣就是看是不是要制定一個比較明確的原則或是執法政策方向等等這類似像這樣一個文件這個不要拖這是你們的業務我知道深層視野也很重要是所以趕快把我們會盡快的規定準則把它訂定出來是我們會盡快另外你這個國際交流的部分呢國際交流有沒有實際成果\n\n19\n00:07:08,229 --> 00:07:33,017\n因為我剛剛在報告有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來就是我率團到巴拉圭進行這個雙邊的會談為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂有這個所謂雙方的MOU啦像巴拉圭是去年簽的啦簽的MOU我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國但是過去有一些這個所謂國際合作的這個相關的案件調查嗎\n\n20\n00:07:34,349 --> 00:07:53,381\n目前巴拉圭是還沒有但是像加拿大美國我們其實都有一些交流我比較重視跟我們貿易比較相關的這些主要貿易國日本東協國家巴拉圭也是重要因為邦交國非邦交國的部分你要去怎麼樣利用你們的交流\n\n21\n00:07:54,440 --> 00:08:15,621\n交流不是只有去交流之后回来就写个paper写个报告就结案你交流之后你要建立合作的机制才有意义啊交流之后一定要有具体的成果比方说你将去加拿大你去美国你要去谈的目标是什么未来我们要有一个什么合作的机制有人员的护防个案的资讯的共享这个都是在MOU里面会提到的\n\n22\n00:08:16,241 --> 00:08:41,003\n所以如果將來有些案子是涉及到跨國之間的我們可以透過這個機制來討論像日本我們前陣子有跟他開視訊會議就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則彼此之間經驗的分享這個都有新加坡等等經驗分享是交流啦我的意思是說要有一個合作的機制出來裡面有一個想法就是說我交流完之後下一步是什麼我常常想說交流之後要有更多的意義啊\n\n23\n00:08:41,977 --> 00:09:08,018\n否則你交流後面有更多的作為否則你交流一點意義都沒有要把那交流成果彼此互相認識有互信然後這個交換意見之後我們要有一個很完整的一個未來合作的一個方案每一個國家都要這樣去看待我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有要求或者說我們之間彼此都有要求你跟幾個國家簽了MOU什麼你跟幾個國家簽了MOU十個國家\n\n24\n00:09:11,451 --> 00:09:21,165\n哪十個你知道嗎像這個處長你來報告你們認為很重要如果我是主委的話我十個我都會記得起來\n\n25\n00:09:22,622 --> 00:09:45,203\n跟委員報告我們今天目前有跟日本印尼還有這個斯瓦帝尼還有加拿大還有日本還有這個巴拉圭澳洲紐西蘭這些東西我們都彼此之間簽有一些合作主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的被邦交我這個才比較重要因為才才有可能產生合作嘛是你這個合作才有意義啊\n\n26\n00:09:46,645 --> 00:10:14,960\n所以我要去給你們一些建議往一些工作的方向做一些調整而不是做一些文字的描述沒有具體的成果沒有具體的成果我就沒有辦法去檢驗你的績效還有未來工作的方向你們要知道說交流不是交流完之後就沒有了就沒有任何後續交流之後你要下一步就是合作那合作你要一個合作的方案是什麼這你們要去思考的而不是我幫你們思考謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n27\n00:10:16,161 --> 00:10:17,066\n謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10529\t15372\t好謝謝先請公平會陳代理主委我們請陳主委謝謝委員長主委早主委那個我看了第三會議跟第四會議你們的所謂的工作報告與業務報告我覺得好像有點刻意\n33157\t48311\t要在呈現方式要規避或者避免立法院的監督為什麼我這樣講因為很多都是過程的描述沒有實際數據很多只是很抽象的敘述\n50032\t70158\t然後並沒有這個到底你裁罰多少然後主動立案有多少然後有多少集合申報準駁的比例等等我們需要是一個量化的數據不過量化數據當然事後跟你一樣可以但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視嘛除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料或者你們數據資料很蒼白\n72571\t99308\t你才不願意去呈現出來用一些文字的描述抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情所以三四會期都是這樣的報告內容我覺得是不是下個會期你們的報告我認為我建議是應該做一些調整那個跟委員報告委員所提到的這些相關的數字量化其實我們都有啦都有一些統計只是說因為在這邊的業務報告基於時間等等的考慮時間\n101299\t129450\t時間不夠充裕嗎沒有 就是我們當然書面上的呈現是沒有問題所以委員會建議我們會納入考慮這本來就你應該要呈現不是說時間問題不是你可以決定時間問題主席就願意讓你做報告嘛而且我們是要需要你這個提供的數據才做一些才能對你們的工作績效做一些的監督是 我們下一次的報告就會比照辦理就是把這個相關的量化資料把它放進去而且你要有成效的報告\n130988\t156136\t那KPI要有一個詳細的KPI的這個制度每一個你的施政項目都有個KPI的標準結案數、主動立案數、拆罰件數跟金額然後移送哪些單位比如說不實廣告關於藥品類關於這個保健食品類你要移送給衛福部對不對移送幾件\n157506\t172101\t我就問這個例子每天都看到這個電視頻道都有這個大量這高密度高頻率長時間的所謂介於模糊這個地帶的保健食品具有這個誇張療效10秒鐘就入睡\n177911\t186308\t這個也是不實廣告啊 對不對是啊 我們有處理過我們有處分過一些案子是你處分嗎有些案子是我們處分就是說他做不但誇張的\n188854\t215152\t你搞不清楚狀況沒有 療效的部分是衛福部啦但是我很清楚但是你處分有這些不實廣告針對這個保健食品或者藥品的嗎沒有吧我是要你提供你移送多少件數給衛福部嘛是這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你到底針對不實廣告做了哪些事情是 這個我們在下一次我們會提供我看不用等一下下一次你這個會後就應該提供給我們\n217490\t239194\t我是不想用這個臨時提案來寫這本來就是應該你要呈現的你說你都針對不實廣告做了哪些事情相關部會 比方說這個內政部管理這個不特產品銷售 房屋銷售你們移送了幾件 裁罰了幾件然後這個衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品你們移送了幾件嘛\n240356\t256352\t這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你的績效到底符不符合這個這個大家的期待嘛你用一些抽象的概念抽象的文字敘述我覺得這個我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做了哪些事情所以這部分我希望說\n257813\t286112\t主委你可以再檢討一下我們會改進我們會把這個東西納入我希望說下個會期這個呈現一定要以數據為主而不是你用列舉的方式把你的這些業務項目呈現出來很精確的把每一項數據說出來另外你們這個每年春節或者是中秋有執行農畜與重點民生物資的產銷試礦調查\n288423\t312729\t這個部分今年中秋過了嘛是那你們有召開房市人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎有有有那會議的結論呢就是我們在中秋節去查過了嘛目前物價還算是並沒有出現有所謂聯合壟斷烘台物價的情況也是聯合是你們聯合還是聯合各縣市政府這是我們自己查的我們自己查了幾次\n314690\t339778\t我們查了一個月的時間啦 就是分批去查那有沒有查核報告我們有查核報告啊 有我們公布在網上什麼時候去查 你說查了一個月 查了哪些品項這些都有 有你要提供出來啊我們是不是會後可以給委員針對中秋啊 你們執行這個民生物資產消失亡調查的狀況\n341519\t368932\t你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料寫那麼多的工作的項目到底你有沒有做好有沒有做對另外啊第三個問題請教深層式AI是未來一個你們的一個競爭的一個模式這些你們要跟國際合作然後你們要有前瞻性的這個相關的政策準備你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣這個徵詢外界意見就是我們在收集\n369862\t380199\t各界的意见什么时候会有一个初步的一个方案出来领选征询的阶段已经结束了我们现在会诊意见那会诊意见以后我们会提到委员会去讨论那时间表要有啊\n381646\t401103\t因為要經過委員會討論所以就比較難有一個區別委員會是你召開的啊是沒錯但是委員的意見會不一樣那總要有個時間表你不能這個無限期之後之後我還在蒐集意見 蒐集意見這甚至AI是瞬息外面每天都有新的進展我們蒐集意見已經結束了我們現在是在延續這些意見然後在跟公平法的關係然後我們會送到委員會去討論\n401684\t427094\t那最後是什麼樣的成果最後我們要看延續出來的結果怎麼樣就是看是不是要制定一個比較明確的原則或是執法政策方向等等這類似像這樣一個文件這個不要拖這是你們的業務我知道深層視野也很重要是所以趕快把我們會盡快的規定準則把它訂定出來是 我們會盡快另外你這個國際交流的部分呢國際交流有沒有實際成果\n428229\t453017\t因為我剛剛在報告有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來就是我率團到巴拉圭進行這個雙邊的會談為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂有這個所謂雙方的MOU啦像巴拉圭是去年簽的啦簽的MOU我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國但是過去有一些這個所謂國際合作的這個相關的案件調查嗎\n454349\t473381\t目前巴拉圭是還沒有但是像加拿大美國我們其實都有一些交流我比較重視跟我們貿易比較相關的這些主要貿易國日本東協國家巴拉圭也是重要因為邦交國非邦交國的部分你要去怎麼樣利用你們的交流\n474440\t495621\t交流不是只有去交流之后回来就写个paper写个报告就结案你交流之后你要建立合作的机制才有意义啊交流之后一定要有具体的成果比方说你将去加拿大你去美国你要去谈的目标是什么未来我们要有一个什么合作的机制有人员的护防个案的资讯的共享这个都是在MOU里面会提到的\n496241\t521003\t所以如果將來有些案子是涉及到跨國之間的我們可以透過這個機制來討論像日本我們前陣子有跟他開視訊會議就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則彼此之間經驗的分享這個都有 新加坡等等經驗分享是交流啦我的意思是說要有一個合作的機制出來裡面有一個想法就是說我交流完之後下一步是什麼我常常想說交流之後要有更多的意義啊\n521977\t548018\t否則你交流後面有更多的作為否則你交流一點意義都沒有要把那交流成果彼此互相認識有互信然後這個交換意見之後我們要有一個很完整的一個未來合作的一個方案每一個國家都要這樣去看待我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有要求或者說我們之間彼此都有要求你跟幾個國家簽了MOU什麼你跟幾個國家簽了MOU十個國家\n551451\t561165\t哪十個你知道嗎像這個處長你來報告你們認為很重要如果我是主委的話我十個我都會記得起來\n562622\t585203\t跟委員報告我們今天目前有跟日本印尼還有這個斯瓦帝尼還有加拿大還有日本還有這個巴拉圭澳洲紐西蘭這些東西我們都彼此之間簽有一些合作主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的被邦交我這個才比較重要因為才才有可能產生合作嘛是你這個合作才有意義啊\n586645\t614960\t所以我要去給你們一些建議往一些工作的方向做一些調整而不是做一些文字的描述沒有具體的成果沒有具體的成果我就沒有辦法去檢驗你的績效還有未來工作的方向你們要知道說交流不是交流完之後就沒有了就沒有任何後續交流之後你要下一步就是合作那合作你要一個合作的方案是什麼這你們要去思考的而不是我幫你們思考謝謝好 謝謝委員\n616161\t617066\t謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢\n","txt":"好謝謝先請公平會陳代理主委我們請陳主委謝謝委員長主委早主委那個我看了第三會議跟第四會議你們的所謂的工作報告與業務報告我覺得好像有點刻意\n要在呈現方式要規避或者避免立法院的監督為什麼我這樣講因為很多都是過程的描述沒有實際數據很多只是很抽象的敘述\n然後並沒有這個到底你裁罰多少然後主動立案有多少然後有多少集合申報準駁的比例等等我們需要是一個量化的數據不過量化數據當然事後跟你一樣可以但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視嘛除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料或者你們數據資料很蒼白\n你才不願意去呈現出來用一些文字的描述抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情所以三四會期都是這樣的報告內容我覺得是不是下個會期你們的報告我認為我建議是應該做一些調整那個跟委員報告委員所提到的這些相關的數字量化其實我們都有啦都有一些統計只是說因為在這邊的業務報告基於時間等等的考慮時間\n時間不夠充裕嗎沒有 就是我們當然書面上的呈現是沒有問題所以委員會建議我們會納入考慮這本來就你應該要呈現不是說時間問題不是你可以決定時間問題主席就願意讓你做報告嘛而且我們是要需要你這個提供的數據才做一些才能對你們的工作績效做一些的監督是 我們下一次的報告就會比照辦理就是把這個相關的量化資料把它放進去而且你要有成效的報告\n那KPI要有一個詳細的KPI的這個制度每一個你的施政項目都有個KPI的標準結案數、主動立案數、拆罰件數跟金額然後移送哪些單位比如說不實廣告關於藥品類關於這個保健食品類你要移送給衛福部對不對移送幾件\n我就問這個例子每天都看到這個電視頻道都有這個大量這高密度高頻率長時間的所謂介於模糊這個地帶的保健食品具有這個誇張療效10秒鐘就入睡\n這個也是不實廣告啊 對不對是啊 我們有處理過我們有處分過一些案子是你處分嗎有些案子是我們處分就是說他做不但誇張的\n你搞不清楚狀況沒有 療效的部分是衛福部啦但是我很清楚但是你處分有這些不實廣告針對這個保健食品或者藥品的嗎沒有吧我是要你提供你移送多少件數給衛福部嘛是這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你到底針對不實廣告做了哪些事情是 這個我們在下一次我們會提供我看不用等一下下一次你這個會後就應該提供給我們\n我是不想用這個臨時提案來寫這本來就是應該你要呈現的你說你都針對不實廣告做了哪些事情相關部會 比方說這個內政部管理這個不特產品銷售 房屋銷售你們移送了幾件 裁罰了幾件然後這個衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品你們移送了幾件嘛\n這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你的績效到底符不符合這個這個大家的期待嘛你用一些抽象的概念抽象的文字敘述我覺得這個我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做了哪些事情所以這部分我希望說\n主委你可以再檢討一下我們會改進我們會把這個東西納入我希望說下個會期這個呈現一定要以數據為主而不是你用列舉的方式把你的這些業務項目呈現出來很精確的把每一項數據說出來另外你們這個每年春節或者是中秋有執行農畜與重點民生物資的產銷試礦調查\n這個部分今年中秋過了嘛是那你們有召開房市人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎有有有那會議的結論呢就是我們在中秋節去查過了嘛目前物價還算是並沒有出現有所謂聯合壟斷烘台物價的情況也是聯合是你們聯合還是聯合各縣市政府這是我們自己查的我們自己查了幾次\n我們查了一個月的時間啦 就是分批去查那有沒有查核報告我們有查核報告啊 有我們公布在網上什麼時候去查 你說查了一個月 查了哪些品項這些都有 有你要提供出來啊我們是不是會後可以給委員針對中秋啊 你們執行這個民生物資產消失亡調查的狀況\n你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料寫那麼多的工作的項目到底你有沒有做好有沒有做對另外啊第三個問題請教深層式AI是未來一個你們的一個競爭的一個模式這些你們要跟國際合作然後你們要有前瞻性的這個相關的政策準備你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣這個徵詢外界意見就是我們在收集\n各界的意见什么时候会有一个初步的一个方案出来领选征询的阶段已经结束了我们现在会诊意见那会诊意见以后我们会提到委员会去讨论那时间表要有啊\n因為要經過委員會討論所以就比較難有一個區別委員會是你召開的啊是沒錯但是委員的意見會不一樣那總要有個時間表你不能這個無限期之後之後我還在蒐集意見 蒐集意見這甚至AI是瞬息外面每天都有新的進展我們蒐集意見已經結束了我們現在是在延續這些意見然後在跟公平法的關係然後我們會送到委員會去討論\n那最後是什麼樣的成果最後我們要看延續出來的結果怎麼樣就是看是不是要制定一個比較明確的原則或是執法政策方向等等這類似像這樣一個文件這個不要拖這是你們的業務我知道深層視野也很重要是所以趕快把我們會盡快的規定準則把它訂定出來是 我們會盡快另外你這個國際交流的部分呢國際交流有沒有實際成果\n因為我剛剛在報告有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來就是我率團到巴拉圭進行這個雙邊的會談為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂有這個所謂雙方的MOU啦像巴拉圭是去年簽的啦簽的MOU我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國但是過去有一些這個所謂國際合作的這個相關的案件調查嗎\n目前巴拉圭是還沒有但是像加拿大美國我們其實都有一些交流我比較重視跟我們貿易比較相關的這些主要貿易國日本東協國家巴拉圭也是重要因為邦交國非邦交國的部分你要去怎麼樣利用你們的交流\n交流不是只有去交流之后回来就写个paper写个报告就结案你交流之后你要建立合作的机制才有意义啊交流之后一定要有具体的成果比方说你将去加拿大你去美国你要去谈的目标是什么未来我们要有一个什么合作的机制有人员的护防个案的资讯的共享这个都是在MOU里面会提到的\n所以如果將來有些案子是涉及到跨國之間的我們可以透過這個機制來討論像日本我們前陣子有跟他開視訊會議就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則彼此之間經驗的分享這個都有 新加坡等等經驗分享是交流啦我的意思是說要有一個合作的機制出來裡面有一個想法就是說我交流完之後下一步是什麼我常常想說交流之後要有更多的意義啊\n否則你交流後面有更多的作為否則你交流一點意義都沒有要把那交流成果彼此互相認識有互信然後這個交換意見之後我們要有一個很完整的一個未來合作的一個方案每一個國家都要這樣去看待我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有要求或者說我們之間彼此都有要求你跟幾個國家簽了MOU什麼你跟幾個國家簽了MOU十個國家\n哪十個你知道嗎像這個處長你來報告你們認為很重要如果我是主委的話我十個我都會記得起來\n跟委員報告我們今天目前有跟日本印尼還有這個斯瓦帝尼還有加拿大還有日本還有這個巴拉圭澳洲紐西蘭這些東西我們都彼此之間簽有一些合作主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的被邦交我這個才比較重要因為才才有可能產生合作嘛是你這個合作才有意義啊\n所以我要去給你們一些建議往一些工作的方向做一些調整而不是做一些文字的描述沒有具體的成果沒有具體的成果我就沒有辦法去檢驗你的績效還有未來工作的方向你們要知道說交流不是交流完之後就沒有了就沒有任何後續交流之後你要下一步就是合作那合作你要一個合作的方案是什麼這你們要去思考的而不是我幫你們思考謝謝好 謝謝委員\n謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.529 --> 00:15.372\n好謝謝先請公平會陳代理主委我們請陳主委謝謝委員長主委早主委那個我看了第三會議跟第四會議你們的所謂的工作報告與業務報告我覺得好像有點刻意\n\n00:33.157 --> 00:48.311\n要在呈現方式要規避或者避免立法院的監督為什麼我這樣講因為很多都是過程的描述沒有實際數據很多只是很抽象的敘述\n\n00:50.032 --> 01:10.158\n然後並沒有這個到底你裁罰多少然後主動立案有多少然後有多少集合申報準駁的比例等等我們需要是一個量化的數據不過量化數據當然事後跟你一樣可以但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視嘛除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料或者你們數據資料很蒼白\n\n01:12.571 --> 01:39.308\n你才不願意去呈現出來用一些文字的描述抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情所以三四會期都是這樣的報告內容我覺得是不是下個會期你們的報告我認為我建議是應該做一些調整那個跟委員報告委員所提到的這些相關的數字量化其實我們都有啦都有一些統計只是說因為在這邊的業務報告基於時間等等的考慮時間\n\n01:41.299 --> 02:09.450\n時間不夠充裕嗎沒有就是我們當然書面上的呈現是沒有問題所以委員會建議我們會納入考慮這本來就你應該要呈現不是說時間問題不是你可以決定時間問題主席就願意讓你做報告嘛而且我們是要需要你這個提供的數據才做一些才能對你們的工作績效做一些的監督是我們下一次的報告就會比照辦理就是把這個相關的量化資料把它放進去而且你要有成效的報告\n\n02:10.988 --> 02:36.136\n那KPI要有一個詳細的KPI的這個制度每一個你的施政項目都有個KPI的標準結案數、主動立案數、拆罰件數跟金額然後移送哪些單位比如說不實廣告關於藥品類關於這個保健食品類你要移送給衛福部對不對移送幾件\n\n02:37.506 --> 02:52.101\n我就問這個例子每天都看到這個電視頻道都有這個大量這高密度高頻率長時間的所謂介於模糊這個地帶的保健食品具有這個誇張療效10秒鐘就入睡\n\n02:57.911 --> 03:06.308\n這個也是不實廣告啊對不對是啊我們有處理過我們有處分過一些案子是你處分嗎有些案子是我們處分就是說他做不但誇張的\n\n03:08.854 --> 03:35.152\n你搞不清楚狀況沒有療效的部分是衛福部啦但是我很清楚但是你處分有這些不實廣告針對這個保健食品或者藥品的嗎沒有吧我是要你提供你移送多少件數給衛福部嘛是這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你到底針對不實廣告做了哪些事情是這個我們在下一次我們會提供我看不用等一下下一次你這個會後就應該提供給我們\n\n03:37.490 --> 03:59.194\n我是不想用這個臨時提案來寫這本來就是應該你要呈現的你說你都針對不實廣告做了哪些事情相關部會比方說這個內政部管理這個不特產品銷售房屋銷售你們移送了幾件裁罰了幾件然後這個衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品你們移送了幾件嘛\n\n04:00.356 --> 04:16.352\n這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你的績效到底符不符合這個這個大家的期待嘛你用一些抽象的概念抽象的文字敘述我覺得這個我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做了哪些事情所以這部分我希望說\n\n04:17.813 --> 04:46.112\n主委你可以再檢討一下我們會改進我們會把這個東西納入我希望說下個會期這個呈現一定要以數據為主而不是你用列舉的方式把你的這些業務項目呈現出來很精確的把每一項數據說出來另外你們這個每年春節或者是中秋有執行農畜與重點民生物資的產銷試礦調查\n\n04:48.423 --> 05:12.729\n這個部分今年中秋過了嘛是那你們有召開房市人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎有有有那會議的結論呢就是我們在中秋節去查過了嘛目前物價還算是並沒有出現有所謂聯合壟斷烘台物價的情況也是聯合是你們聯合還是聯合各縣市政府這是我們自己查的我們自己查了幾次\n\n05:14.690 --> 05:39.778\n我們查了一個月的時間啦就是分批去查那有沒有查核報告我們有查核報告啊有我們公布在網上什麼時候去查你說查了一個月查了哪些品項這些都有有你要提供出來啊我們是不是會後可以給委員針對中秋啊你們執行這個民生物資產消失亡調查的狀況\n\n05:41.519 --> 06:08.932\n你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料寫那麼多的工作的項目到底你有沒有做好有沒有做對另外啊第三個問題請教深層式AI是未來一個你們的一個競爭的一個模式這些你們要跟國際合作然後你們要有前瞻性的這個相關的政策準備你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣這個徵詢外界意見就是我們在收集\n\n06:09.862 --> 06:20.199\n各界的意见什么时候会有一个初步的一个方案出来领选征询的阶段已经结束了我们现在会诊意见那会诊意见以后我们会提到委员会去讨论那时间表要有啊\n\n06:21.646 --> 06:41.103\n因為要經過委員會討論所以就比較難有一個區別委員會是你召開的啊是沒錯但是委員的意見會不一樣那總要有個時間表你不能這個無限期之後之後我還在蒐集意見蒐集意見這甚至AI是瞬息外面每天都有新的進展我們蒐集意見已經結束了我們現在是在延續這些意見然後在跟公平法的關係然後我們會送到委員會去討論\n\n06:41.684 --> 07:07.094\n那最後是什麼樣的成果最後我們要看延續出來的結果怎麼樣就是看是不是要制定一個比較明確的原則或是執法政策方向等等這類似像這樣一個文件這個不要拖這是你們的業務我知道深層視野也很重要是所以趕快把我們會盡快的規定準則把它訂定出來是我們會盡快另外你這個國際交流的部分呢國際交流有沒有實際成果\n\n07:08.229 --> 07:33.017\n因為我剛剛在報告有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來就是我率團到巴拉圭進行這個雙邊的會談為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂有這個所謂雙方的MOU啦像巴拉圭是去年簽的啦簽的MOU我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國但是過去有一些這個所謂國際合作的這個相關的案件調查嗎\n\n07:34.349 --> 07:53.381\n目前巴拉圭是還沒有但是像加拿大美國我們其實都有一些交流我比較重視跟我們貿易比較相關的這些主要貿易國日本東協國家巴拉圭也是重要因為邦交國非邦交國的部分你要去怎麼樣利用你們的交流\n\n07:54.440 --> 08:15.621\n交流不是只有去交流之后回来就写个paper写个报告就结案你交流之后你要建立合作的机制才有意义啊交流之后一定要有具体的成果比方说你将去加拿大你去美国你要去谈的目标是什么未来我们要有一个什么合作的机制有人员的护防个案的资讯的共享这个都是在MOU里面会提到的\n\n08:16.241 --> 08:41.003\n所以如果將來有些案子是涉及到跨國之間的我們可以透過這個機制來討論像日本我們前陣子有跟他開視訊會議就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則彼此之間經驗的分享這個都有新加坡等等經驗分享是交流啦我的意思是說要有一個合作的機制出來裡面有一個想法就是說我交流完之後下一步是什麼我常常想說交流之後要有更多的意義啊\n\n08:41.977 --> 09:08.018\n否則你交流後面有更多的作為否則你交流一點意義都沒有要把那交流成果彼此互相認識有互信然後這個交換意見之後我們要有一個很完整的一個未來合作的一個方案每一個國家都要這樣去看待我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有要求或者說我們之間彼此都有要求你跟幾個國家簽了MOU什麼你跟幾個國家簽了MOU十個國家\n\n09:11.451 --> 09:21.165\n哪十個你知道嗎像這個處長你來報告你們認為很重要如果我是主委的話我十個我都會記得起來\n\n09:22.622 --> 09:45.203\n跟委員報告我們今天目前有跟日本印尼還有這個斯瓦帝尼還有加拿大還有日本還有這個巴拉圭澳洲紐西蘭這些東西我們都彼此之間簽有一些合作主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的被邦交我這個才比較重要因為才才有可能產生合作嘛是你這個合作才有意義啊\n\n09:46.645 --> 10:14.960\n所以我要去給你們一些建議往一些工作的方向做一些調整而不是做一些文字的描述沒有具體的成果沒有具體的成果我就沒有辦法去檢驗你的績效還有未來工作的方向你們要知道說交流不是交流完之後就沒有了就沒有任何後續交流之後你要下一步就是合作那合作你要一個合作的方案是什麼這你們要去思考的而不是我幫你們思考謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n10:16.161 --> 10:17.066\n謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.529,"end":15.372,"text":"好謝謝先請公平會陳代理主委我們請陳主委謝謝委員長主委早主委那個我看了第三會議跟第四會議你們的所謂的工作報告與業務報告我覺得好像有點刻意"},{"start":33.157,"end":48.311,"text":"要在呈現方式要規避或者避免立法院的監督為什麼我這樣講因為很多都是過程的描述沒有實際數據很多只是很抽象的敘述"},{"start":50.032,"end":70.158,"text":"然後並沒有這個到底你裁罰多少然後主動立案有多少然後有多少集合申報準駁的比例等等我們需要是一個量化的數據不過量化數據當然事後跟你一樣可以但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視嘛除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料或者你們數據資料很蒼白"},{"start":72.571,"end":99.308,"text":"你才不願意去呈現出來用一些文字的描述抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情所以三四會期都是這樣的報告內容我覺得是不是下個會期你們的報告我認為我建議是應該做一些調整那個跟委員報告委員所提到的這些相關的數字量化其實我們都有啦都有一些統計只是說因為在這邊的業務報告基於時間等等的考慮時間"},{"start":101.299,"end":129.45,"text":"時間不夠充裕嗎沒有 就是我們當然書面上的呈現是沒有問題所以委員會建議我們會納入考慮這本來就你應該要呈現不是說時間問題不是你可以決定時間問題主席就願意讓你做報告嘛而且我們是要需要你這個提供的數據才做一些才能對你們的工作績效做一些的監督是 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裁罰了幾件然後這個衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品你們移送了幾件嘛"},{"start":240.356,"end":256.352,"text":"這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你的績效到底符不符合這個這個大家的期待嘛你用一些抽象的概念抽象的文字敘述我覺得這個我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做了哪些事情所以這部分我希望說"},{"start":257.813,"end":286.112,"text":"主委你可以再檢討一下我們會改進我們會把這個東西納入我希望說下個會期這個呈現一定要以數據為主而不是你用列舉的方式把你的這些業務項目呈現出來很精確的把每一項數據說出來另外你們這個每年春節或者是中秋有執行農畜與重點民生物資的產銷試礦調查"},{"start":288.423,"end":312.729,"text":"這個部分今年中秋過了嘛是那你們有召開房市人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎有有有那會議的結論呢就是我們在中秋節去查過了嘛目前物價還算是並沒有出現有所謂聯合壟斷烘台物價的情況也是聯合是你們聯合還是聯合各縣市政府這是我們自己查的我們自己查了幾次"},{"start":314.69,"end":339.778,"text":"我們查了一個月的時間啦 就是分批去查那有沒有查核報告我們有查核報告啊 有我們公布在網上什麼時候去查 你說查了一個月 查了哪些品項這些都有 有你要提供出來啊我們是不是會後可以給委員針對中秋啊 你們執行這個民生物資產消失亡調查的狀況"},{"start":341.519,"end":368.932,"text":"你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料寫那麼多的工作的項目到底你有沒有做好有沒有做對另外啊第三個問題請教深層式AI是未來一個你們的一個競爭的一個模式這些你們要跟國際合作然後你們要有前瞻性的這個相關的政策準備你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣這個徵詢外界意見就是我們在收集"},{"start":369.862,"end":380.199,"text":"各界的意见什么时候会有一个初步的一个方案出来领选征询的阶段已经结束了我们现在会诊意见那会诊意见以后我们会提到委员会去讨论那时间表要有啊"},{"start":381.646,"end":401.103,"text":"因為要經過委員會討論所以就比較難有一個區別委員會是你召開的啊是沒錯但是委員的意見會不一樣那總要有個時間表你不能這個無限期之後之後我還在蒐集意見 蒐集意見這甚至AI是瞬息外面每天都有新的進展我們蒐集意見已經結束了我們現在是在延續這些意見然後在跟公平法的關係然後我們會送到委員會去討論"},{"start":401.684,"end":427.094,"text":"那最後是什麼樣的成果最後我們要看延續出來的結果怎麼樣就是看是不是要制定一個比較明確的原則或是執法政策方向等等這類似像這樣一個文件這個不要拖這是你們的業務我知道深層視野也很重要是所以趕快把我們會盡快的規定準則把它訂定出來是 我們會盡快另外你這個國際交流的部分呢國際交流有沒有實際成果"},{"start":428.229,"end":453.017,"text":"因為我剛剛在報告有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來就是我率團到巴拉圭進行這個雙邊的會談為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂有這個所謂雙方的MOU啦像巴拉圭是去年簽的啦簽的MOU我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國但是過去有一些這個所謂國際合作的這個相關的案件調查嗎"},{"start":454.349,"end":473.381,"text":"目前巴拉圭是還沒有但是像加拿大美國我們其實都有一些交流我比較重視跟我們貿易比較相關的這些主要貿易國日本東協國家巴拉圭也是重要因為邦交國非邦交國的部分你要去怎麼樣利用你們的交流"},{"start":474.44,"end":495.621,"text":"交流不是只有去交流之后回来就写个paper写个报告就结案你交流之后你要建立合作的机制才有意义啊交流之后一定要有具体的成果比方说你将去加拿大你去美国你要去谈的目标是什么未来我们要有一个什么合作的机制有人员的护防个案的资讯的共享这个都是在MOU里面会提到的"},{"start":496.241,"end":521.003,"text":"所以如果將來有些案子是涉及到跨國之間的我們可以透過這個機制來討論像日本我們前陣子有跟他開視訊會議就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則彼此之間經驗的分享這個都有 新加坡等等經驗分享是交流啦我的意思是說要有一個合作的機制出來裡面有一個想法就是說我交流完之後下一步是什麼我常常想說交流之後要有更多的意義啊"},{"start":521.977,"end":548.018,"text":"否則你交流後面有更多的作為否則你交流一點意義都沒有要把那交流成果彼此互相認識有互信然後這個交換意見之後我們要有一個很完整的一個未來合作的一個方案每一個國家都要這樣去看待我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有要求或者說我們之間彼此都有要求你跟幾個國家簽了MOU什麼你跟幾個國家簽了MOU十個國家"},{"start":551.451,"end":561.165,"text":"哪十個你知道嗎像這個處長你來報告你們認為很重要如果我是主委的話我十個我都會記得起來"},{"start":562.622,"end":585.203,"text":"跟委員報告我們今天目前有跟日本印尼還有這個斯瓦帝尼還有加拿大還有日本還有這個巴拉圭澳洲紐西蘭這些東西我們都彼此之間簽有一些合作主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的被邦交我這個才比較重要因為才才有可能產生合作嘛是你這個合作才有意義啊"},{"start":586.645,"end":614.96,"text":"所以我要去給你們一些建議往一些工作的方向做一些調整而不是做一些文字的描述沒有具體的成果沒有具體的成果我就沒有辦法去檢驗你的績效還有未來工作的方向你們要知道說交流不是交流完之後就沒有了就沒有任何後續交流之後你要下一步就是合作那合作你要一個合作的方案是什麼這你們要去思考的而不是我幫你們思考謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":616.161,"end":617.066,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":284,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時16分）謝謝。先請公平會陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳主委，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：主委早。主委，我看了第3會期跟第4會期你們的工作報告與業務報告，我覺得好像有點刻意在呈現方式要規避或者避免立法院的監督，為什麼我這樣講？你們很多都是過程的描述，沒有實際數據，很多只是很抽象的敘述並沒有說到底裁罰多少？主動立案有多少？有多少結合申報？准駁的比例等等，我們需要的是一個量化的數據，不過量化數據當然事後跟你要也可以，但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視，除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料，或者你們數據資料很蒼白，你才不願意去呈現出來，而用一些文字的描述、抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情，所以第3、4會期都是這樣的報告內容，我覺得是不是下個會期，你們的報告，我建議應該做一些調整。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，委員所提到的這些相關數字的量化，其實我們都有一些統計，只是因為在這邊的業務報告，基於時間等等的考慮……"],["邱委員志偉：時間？時間不夠充裕嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，當然書面上呈現是沒有問題，所以委員的建議我們會納入考慮。"],["邱委員志偉：這本來你就應該要呈現，不是說時間，時間問題不是你可以決定，時間問題，主席願意讓你做報告嘛！而且我們是需要你提供的數據才能對你們工作績效做一些監督。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們下一次的報告就會比照辦理，把這些相關的量化資料擺進去。"],["邱委員志偉：而且你要有成效的報告，到底KPI……你要有一個詳細KPI的制度，每一個你的施政項目都有一個KPI的標準，結案數、主動立案數、裁罰件數跟金額，然後移送哪些單位，比如不實廣告關於藥品類、關於保健食品類，你要移送給衛福部，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["邱委員志偉：移送幾件？我就問這個例子，每天看到電視頻道都有大量、高密度、高頻率、長時間所謂介於模糊地帶的保健食品，具有誇張療效，10秒鐘就入睡，這個也是不實廣告啊，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是啊，我們有處分過一些案子，這些案子……"],["邱委員志偉：是你處分嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有些案子是我們處分，就是說它做不當誇張的宣傳。"],["邱委員志偉：你搞不清楚狀況。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，療效的部分是衛福部，但是……"],["邱委員志偉：這我很清楚，但是你處分有針對這些不實廣告，保健食品或者藥品的嗎？沒有吧！我是要你提供你移送多少件數給衛福部。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這些你都要呈現出來啊，我才知道你到底針對不實廣告做哪些事情。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，這個在下一次我們會提供。"],["邱委員志偉：我看不用等下一次，你會後就應該提供給我們啦！我是不想用臨時提案來寫，這本來就應該是你們要呈現的，你說你針對不實廣告做哪些事情，相關部會，比方內政部，關於不動產銷售、房屋銷售，你們移送幾件？裁罰了幾件？衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品，你們移送了幾件？這些你都要呈現出來啊！我才知道你的績效到底符不符合大家的期待啊！你用一些抽象的概念、抽象的文字敘述，我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做哪些事情，所以這部分，我希望主委可以再檢討一下。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們會改進，我們會把這些東西納入。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望下個會期呈現一定要以數據為主，而不是你用列舉的方式把你這些業務項目呈現出來。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是、是。"],["邱委員志偉：很精確的把每一項數據說出來。另外，你們每年春節或者是中秋，有執行農畜漁重點民生物資產銷的市況調查，今年中秋過了，你們有召開防制人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有、有、有。"],["邱委員志偉：會議的結論呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們在中秋節去查過了，目前物價還算並沒有出現所謂聯合壟斷、哄抬物價的情況。"],["邱委員志偉：是你們自己去查還是聯合各縣市政府？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這是我們自己查的，我們自己……"],["邱委員志偉：查了幾次？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們查了一個月的時間，分批去查。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有查核報告？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們有查核報告，有。"],["邱委員志偉：核報告的時間點？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們公布在網路上。"],["邱委員志偉：時間點，你們什麼時候去查？你說查了一個月，查了哪些品項？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這些都有、這些都有。"],["邱委員志偉：不，這些有，你要提供出來啊！這會後提供。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們是不是可以會後可以給委員？"],["邱委員志偉：針對中秋，你們執行民生物資產銷市況調查的狀況，你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料，我看寫那麼多工作項目，你到底有沒有做好？有沒有做對？","另外，第三個問題請教，生成式AI是未來你們的一個競爭模式，你們要跟國際合作，然後你們要有前瞻性相關的政策準備，你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：徵詢外界意見就是我們在蒐集各界的意見。"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候會有一個初步的方案出來？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：目前徵詢的階段已經結束了，我們現在彙整意見，等彙整意見以後，我們會提到委員會去討論。"],["邱委員志偉：時間表要有啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為要經過委員會討論，所以就比較難有一個具體的時間表。"],["邱委員志偉：委員會是你召開的啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是沒錯，但是委員的意見會不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：總要有個時間表，你不能無限期說我還在蒐集意見，生成式AI是瞬息萬變，每天都有新的進展。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們蒐集意見已經結束了，現在在研析這些意見跟公平法的關係，然後我們會送到委員會去討論。"],["邱委員志偉：最後是什麼樣的成果？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：最後我們要看研析出來的結果怎麼樣，就是看是不是要制定一個比較明確的原則或是執法政策、方向等等，類似像這樣一個文件。"],["邱委員志偉：這個不要拖，這是你們的業務。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：生成式AI很重要。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們會儘快。"],["邱委員志偉：所以趕快把規定準則訂定出來。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們會儘快。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，有關國際交流的部分呢？國際交流有沒有實際成果？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我剛剛在報告中有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來，我率團到巴拉圭進行雙邊的會談。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂所謂雙方的MOU，像巴拉圭是去年簽的MOU，這是他們邀請我們。"],["邱委員志偉：我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國，但是過去有一些所謂國際合作相關的案件調查嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：目前巴拉圭是還沒有，但是像加拿大、美國，我們其實都有一些交流。"],["邱委員志偉：我比較重視跟我們貿易比較相關的這些主要貿易國，日本、東協國家，當然巴拉圭也是重要的，因為是邦交國，非邦交國的部分，你也要去利用你們的交流，交流不是只有去交流之後回來寫個paper、寫個報告就結案，你交流了之後要建立合作的機制才有意義。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是啊。"],["邱委員志偉：交流之後一定要有具體的成果，比方你去加拿大、去美國要去談的目標是什麼，未來我們要有一個什麼合作的機制？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有啊，這個人員的互訪、個案資訊的共享，這個都是在MOU裡面會提到的，所以如果將來有一些案子是涉及到跨國之間的，我們可以透過這個機制來討論，像我們前陣子有跟日本開視訊會議，就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則，彼此之間經驗的分享，這個都有，新加坡等等各方面的。"],["邱委員志偉：不管是經驗分享或是交流，我的意思是說，要有一個合作的機制出來，你們要有一個想法，交流完之後下一步是什麼？我常常在想說交流之後要有更多的意義，否則交流就沒……後面要有更多的作為，否則你交流一點意義都沒有，你要把交流成果彼此互相認識、有互信，交換意見之後，我們要有一個很完整未來合作的方案，每一個國家都要這樣去看待。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有規定、都有要求，或者是我們之間彼此都有……"],["邱委員志偉：你跟幾個國家簽訂MOU？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：10個國家。"],["邱委員志偉：哪10個，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：請處長來報告。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的MOU很重要，如果我是主委的話，10個我都會記得起來。"],["胡處長祖舜：跟委員報告，我們目前有跟日本、印尼，還有史瓦帝尼、還有加拿大、還有日本、還有巴拉圭、澳洲、紐西蘭這些國家我們都彼此之間簽有一些合作……"],["邱委員志偉：主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的非邦交國才比較重要，因為才有可能產生合作，這個合作才有意義，所以我要給你們一些建議，往一些工作的方向做調整。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["邱委員志偉：而不是做文字的描述，沒有具體的成果；沒有具體的成果，我就沒辦法去檢驗你的績效，還有未來工作的方向，你們要知道交流不是完了之後就沒有了、沒有任何後續，交流之後，你的下一步就是合作，而合作要有一個合作的方案是什麼？是你們要去思考的，而不是我幫你們思考，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢。","我們請謝衣鳯委員質詢，謝謝。待會賴瑞隆委員質詢完，我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-4","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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