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00:02:14,930\n晶片制裁不是就是出口管制就要審查啦對要審查嘛那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種類型我們再適度的給予經貿上的制裁比如說晶片我們外交部有沒有建議我們有開過跨部會的會議有開過跨部會的會議然後不只是晶片這些農產品還有包括礦產所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案\n\n7\n00:02:15,710 --> 00:02:42,663\n就是有個清班也請各部位去評估那晶片這個經濟部就拿出來預告了還沒有完成預告程序他是先上網他還要走完整個行政院的程序才算上網是意外還是必要程序他有個60天的時間那個上網是必要程序還是意外應該是這個經濟部他們內部就是作業的方式但還不是對外你上網還比較對外\n\n8\n00:02:45,342 --> 00:02:56,001\n那個又不是上內網這是經濟部跟我的說明啦他還沒有真正啟動所以這一個晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉不是那還有要制裁嗎這個的話不會有協調過那還有要制裁嗎\n\n9\n00:02:59,773 --> 00:03:27,127\n就是評估過這個是對他的可能的影響對我們的影響都有評估過不是因為當時說要制裁後來拉下來之後我還看到外交部講說因為南非有表達要來談判那看起來是計劃性的作為我計劃要制裁對方嚇到了對方軟化了好我們坐下來談暫時呢這個像日本劍道一樣武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來這個就這一手就很漂亮\n\n10\n00:03:28,067 --> 00:03:56,632\n我跟委員說明一下時間點8月1號的時候我們跨部會開會完之後其實我們外交部就有新聞包括經濟部跟相關的單位但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告或是它是因為先上網它還沒有正式啟動60天的預告所以大家經過諮商之後呢我們認為還是要再評估我要釐清這事情南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判\n\n11\n00:03:57,692 --> 00:04:21,880\n他們有表達就是有一個新的版本就是那個版本從上次說要重新談判到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了這個版本有進行任何談判嗎他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們我們也請律師在研議這個版本就我們住處的位置所在的都市有沒有提到他們有提出一些條件我們當然還在協商當中\n\n12\n00:04:24,093 --> 00:04:48,854\n所以有開始協商對針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的那個協議那個結略他們有提出他們的立場跟意見他因為晶片制裁所以才趕快寄了一個新的他們事先就知道我們在我們有講我們會基於國家利益我們會所以部長你是我們國家外交部長\n\n13\n00:04:50,128 --> 00:05:08,353\n很清楚問一個問題如果他們提出的方案我們不接受或者談判沒有結果我們的制裁清單要不要執行裡面有沒有包含晶片都在我們的評估的項目裡面沒有錯而且各部會也都已經不好的狀況是我說要制裁你結果又拉回來說沒關係淡姐我們待會再講\n\n14\n00:05:09,557 --> 00:05:36,130\n這玩狼來了我跟你講到最後這國家尊嚴就不見了因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估有各部位不只經濟部農業部還有相關的部我們也不希望損敵三千滯耗七千嘛所以所有的評估我都贊成但是如果沒有評估東西就往外丟那你就要好好評估收回來比較好還是繼續比較好如果沒有評估就往外丟誰做的誰要負責嘛\n\n15\n00:05:37,045 --> 00:06:05,013\n那這是一個國家的整體動作攸關我們國家尊嚴攸關我們在南非住處的地位以及我們國家的利益所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣現在正在進行談判你談判不成不好意思我制裁就要祭出了制裁就是一個國家的整體戰力但如果丟出去的制裁好像是來自於不小心PO上網所以趕快拉下來然後這邊談呢還在談當中那制裁我們還要在評估當中\n\n16\n00:06:06,308 --> 00:06:12,867\n不然怪人家不怕你啊我很怕你們這個晶片出口管制這件事情從頭到尾變成一個烏龍\n\n17\n00:06:15,287 --> 00:06:36,782\n這樣就很不好我們都一年前就十月的時候我們就開過跨部會的會然後也進行可能的項目評估但是什麼時候啟動或什麼時候交涉或這個都是通盤的考量部長我們不能推外交說總體外交部部是外交那現在出的問題是部部自己負責\n\n18\n00:06:37,952 --> 00:06:57,784\n因為這是很動態的過程當然我們要把籌碼準備好所以我再問一次我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件就你目前了解我們接不接受有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥如果不妥最後談判破裂但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間我們的制裁清單會不會執行\n\n19\n00:07:00,340 --> 00:07:24,738\n這個都是動態的因為這個怎麼樣就是透過我們的掌握的籌碼因為這個影響也是會很多方面那因為G20啊11月要開上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後才他們大量的施壓所以這裡面有很複雜的國際包括美中啦那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響跟其他的專業們無關啦\n\n20\n00:07:27,213 --> 00:07:49,760\n跟G20也無關美國透過助管直接告訴南非不能對台灣這樣子美國參議院外交委員會決議你這樣做的話我們要停止對南非相關的計畫這都發生過了而我們自己國家面對這事情的態度如果我們保持模糊是我們一致性我也可以接受但不能前拒後攻前攻後拒\n\n21\n00:07:50,400 --> 00:08:14,632\n這樣子的話外交進退會麻煩這個我跟委員再補充包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱那它裡面的不同的包括反對黨所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應我是要提醒部長我支持你所有的做法我現在只是提醒你在這個外交的攻防當中一致性\n\n22\n00:08:15,768 --> 00:08:36,656\n政府內部對外態度的一致性國人團結支持外交部的一致性以及外交部面對南非我們談判的強或軟硬或軟態度的一致性否則弄了半天也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄這個不好\n\n23\n00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:47,780\n我們戰略目標是一致戰術的一定的這個這個彈性的操作就南非住處地位問題以及所在位置問題\n\n24\n00:08:49,731 --> 00:09:09,430\n因為那是我們的財產我們要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動支持經濟制裁相關清單不只經濟制裁我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中雙方在談判當中我們希望維持國家的尊嚴跟地位跟利益如果南非執迷不悟\n\n25\n00:09:10,031 --> 00:09:23,568\n我們在外我們有哪些有盟會採取相應的作為在內我們國家相關的經濟相關的制裁作為有哪些如果涉及機密請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會跟本席有沒有辦法\n\n26\n00:09:24,977 --> 00:09:26,198\n我們在跟委員做報告因為這裡面涉及很動態包括我們現在有法律訴訟在可能會進行經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉\n\n27\n00:09:41,192 --> 00:10:05,485\n這個其實是相當動態包括AGOA就是美國的非洲機會成長法案這些都連動包括你講的美國的參議院就是因為這是連動也包括他們自己執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣我們跟友盟理念相近國家的協同的總和戰力如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭或者在這件事情因為我們內部公佈的先後或者有一些模糊\n\n28\n00:10:06,745 --> 00:10:28,511\n導致的損害不會只發生在南非會發生在南泰會發生在那個拉美所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之我們看到晶片制裁的模糊這個前後轉折我看不懂就是上去拉下來好像南非要談那好啊可是也沒看到談什麼而轉折當中\n\n29\n00:10:29,821 --> 00:10:48,897\n好像來自於來自於一些作業上的問題那這樣子其實是會讓人覺得比較遺憾所以有關這件事情本席要求跟本席一份報告如果委員會需要的話也可以跟我們一份報告希望如果這報告需要列密等就列密等好不好我跟委員簡單講一下齁這個不只是台非\n\n30\n00:10:50,883 --> 00:11:13,722\n之間的談判這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁還有法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾以及在野還有理論你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情我再補充一點因為其實他們南非寧可付出很大的代價\n\n31\n00:11:15,199 --> 00:11:34,332\n他們也會做一些可能跟美國衝突或者傷害台灣的事所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後結合所有的力量讓這個現在的執政的ANC因為他事實上是沒有過半那選舉也到來所以這個很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程我們再跟委員做報告好OK好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t3191\t謝謝主席 麻煩外交部長林佳龍有請林部長時間悠閒 我索索問幾項個人關心的問題第一個問題是剛有幾位同仁都問到了我們看到9月25號\n21612\t46345\t我們宣布要我們在9月25號之前我們宣布因為要制裁南非對台灣種種違法的不適當的外交失去禮節的一些對待跟做法片面的改變我們駐南非大使館的位置地位跟所在地所以我們祭出了晶片出口管制\n48145\t71610\t當時其實我看起來台灣民間社會是一片都是掌聲 認為這是該硬起來的時候那南非那裡也表達了緊急希望呼籲暫停這樣的作為後來在9月25號我們就看到你們宣布暫緩當時還附了一個消息說暫緩的原因是因為南非有要來講 要來談了\n73649\t84484\t我第一個要請教從敲鑼打鼓的晶片制裁到後來只是因為蟲害的水果那個跟這個搞不好也沒有關係這個轉折來自於什麼\n88639\t109054\t因為這個是經濟部它這個下面的預告是內部的它是有上網所以它並沒有完全到行政院的程序所以那因為出來之後引起廣泛的討論那經濟部有會外交部的意見經濟部預告要對南非\n110202\t134930\t晶片制裁不是 就是出口管制就要審查啦對 要審查嘛那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種類型我們再適度的給予經貿上的制裁比如說晶片我們外交部有沒有建議我們有開過跨部會的會議有開過跨部會的會議然後不只是晶片這些農產品還有包括礦產所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案\n135710\t162663\t就是有個清班也請各部位去評估那晶片這個經濟部就拿出來預告了還沒有完成預告程序他是先上網他還要走完整個行政院的程序才算上網是意外還是必要程序他有個60天的時間那個上網是必要程序還是意外應該是這個經濟部他們內部就是作業的方式但還不是對外你上網還比較對外\n165342\t176001\t那個又不是上內網這是經濟部跟我的說明啦他還沒有真正啟動所以這一個晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉不是那還有要制裁嗎這個的話不會有協調過那還有要制裁嗎\n179773\t207127\t就是評估過這個是對他的可能的影響對我們的影響都有評估過不是因為當時說要制裁後來拉下來之後我還看到外交部講說因為南非有表達要來談判那看起來是計劃性的作為我計劃要制裁對方嚇到了對方軟化了好我們坐下來談暫時呢這個像日本劍道一樣武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來這個就這一手就很漂亮\n208067\t236632\t我跟委員說明一下時間點8月1號的時候我們跨部會開會完之後其實我們外交部就有新聞包括經濟部跟相關的單位但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告或是它是因為先上網它還沒有正式啟動60天的預告所以大家經過諮商之後呢我們認為還是要再評估我要釐清這事情南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判\n237692\t261880\t他們有表達就是有一個新的版本就是那個版本從上次說要重新談判到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了這個版本有進行任何談判嗎他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們我們也請律師在研議這個版本就我們住處的位置所在的都市有沒有提到他們有提出一些條件我們當然還在協商當中\n264093\t288854\t所以有開始協商對 針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的那個協議那個結略他們有提出他們的立場跟意見他因為晶片制裁所以才趕快寄了一個新的他們事先就知道我們在我們有講我們會基於國家利益我們會所以部長你是我們國家外交部長\n290128\t308353\t很清楚問一個問題如果他們提出的方案我們不接受或者談判沒有結果我們的制裁清單要不要執行裡面有沒有包含晶片都在我們的評估的項目裡面沒有錯而且各部會也都已經不好的狀況是我說要制裁你結果又拉回來說沒關係 淡姐我們待會再講\n309557\t336130\t這玩狼來了我跟你講到最後這國家尊嚴就不見了因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估有各部位不只經濟部 農業部還有相關的部我們也不希望損敵三千 滯耗七千嘛所以所有的評估我都贊成但是如果沒有評估東西就往外丟那你就要好好評估收回來比較好還是繼續比較好如果沒有評估就往外丟誰做的誰要負責嘛\n337045\t365013\t那這是一個國家的整體動作攸關我們國家尊嚴攸關我們在南非住處的地位以及我們國家的利益所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣現在正在進行談判 你談判不成不好意思 我制裁就要祭出了制裁就是一個國家的整體戰力但如果丟出去的制裁好像是來自於不小心PO上網 所以趕快拉下來然後這邊談呢 還在談當中那制裁我們還要在評估當中\n366308\t372867\t不然怪人家不怕你啊我很怕你們這個晶片出口管制這件事情從頭到尾變成一個烏龍\n375287\t396782\t這樣就很不好我們都一年前就十月的時候我們就開過跨部會的會然後也進行可能的項目評估但是什麼時候啟動或什麼時候交涉或這個都是通盤的考量部長我們不能推外交說總體外交部部是外交那現在出的問題是部部自己負責\n397952\t417784\t因為這是很動態的過程當然我們要把籌碼準備好所以我再問一次我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件就你目前了解我們接不接受有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥如果不妥最後談判破裂但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間我們的制裁清單會不會執行\n420340\t444738\t這個都是動態的因為這個怎麼樣就是透過我們的掌握的籌碼因為這個影響也是會很多方面那因為G20啊11月要開上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後才他們大量的施壓所以這裡面有很複雜的國際包括美中啦那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響跟其他的專業們無關啦\n447213\t469760\t跟G20也無關美國透過助管直接告訴南非不能對台灣這樣子美國參議院外交委員會決議你這樣做的話我們要停止對南非相關的計畫這都發生過了而我們自己國家面對這事情的態度如果我們保持模糊是我們一致性我也可以接受但不能前拒後攻 前攻後拒\n470400\t494632\t這樣子的話外交進退會麻煩這個我跟委員再補充包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱那它裡面的不同的包括反對黨所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應我是要提醒部長我支持你所有的做法我現在只是提醒你在這個外交的攻防當中一致性\n495768\t516656\t政府內部對外態度的一致性國人團結支持外交部的一致性以及外交部面對南非我們談判的強或軟硬或軟態度的一致性否則弄了半天也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄這個不好\n517900\t527780\t我們戰略目標是一致戰術的一定的這個這個彈性的操作就南非住處地位問題以及所在位置問題\n529731\t549430\t因為那是我們的財產我們要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動支持經濟制裁相關清單不只經濟制裁我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中雙方在談判當中我們希望維持國家的尊嚴跟地位跟利益如果南非執迷不悟\n550031\t563568\t我們在外我們有哪些有盟會採取相應的作為在內我們國家相關的經濟相關的制裁作為有哪些如果涉及機密請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會跟本席有沒有辦法\n564977\t566198\t我們在跟委員做報告因為這裡面涉及很動態包括我們現在有法律訴訟在可能會進行經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉\n581192\t605485\t這個其實是相當動態 包括AGOA就是美國的非洲機會成長法案這些都連動 包括你講的美國的參議院就是因為這是連動也包括他們自己執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣我們跟友盟理念相近國家的協同的總和戰力如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭或者在這件事情因為我們內部公佈的先後或者有一些模糊\n606745\t628511\t導致的損害不會只發生在南非會發生在南泰會發生在那個拉美所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之我們看到晶片制裁的模糊這個前後轉折我看不懂就是上去拉下來好像南非要談那好啊可是也沒看到談什麼而轉折當中\n629821\t648897\t好像來自於來自於一些作業上的問題那這樣子其實是會讓人覺得比較遺憾所以有關這件事情本席要求跟本席一份報告如果委員會需要的話也可以跟我們一份報告希望如果這報告需要列密等就列密等好不好我跟委員簡單講一下齁這個不只是台非\n650883\t673722\t之間的談判這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁還有法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾以及在野還有理論你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情我再補充一點因為其實他們南非寧可付出很大的代價\n675199\t694332\t他們也會做一些可能跟美國衝突或者傷害台灣的事所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後結合所有的力量讓這個現在的執政的ANC因為他事實上是沒有過半那選舉也到來所以這個很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程我們再跟委員做報告好 OK 好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩外交部長林佳龍有請林部長時間悠閒 我索索問幾項個人關心的問題第一個問題是剛有幾位同仁都問到了我們看到9月25號\n我們宣布要我們在9月25號之前我們宣布因為要制裁南非對台灣種種違法的不適當的外交失去禮節的一些對待跟做法片面的改變我們駐南非大使館的位置地位跟所在地所以我們祭出了晶片出口管制\n當時其實我看起來台灣民間社會是一片都是掌聲 認為這是該硬起來的時候那南非那裡也表達了緊急希望呼籲暫停這樣的作為後來在9月25號我們就看到你們宣布暫緩當時還附了一個消息說暫緩的原因是因為南非有要來講 要來談了\n我第一個要請教從敲鑼打鼓的晶片制裁到後來只是因為蟲害的水果那個跟這個搞不好也沒有關係這個轉折來自於什麼\n因為這個是經濟部它這個下面的預告是內部的它是有上網所以它並沒有完全到行政院的程序所以那因為出來之後引起廣泛的討論那經濟部有會外交部的意見經濟部預告要對南非\n晶片制裁不是 就是出口管制就要審查啦對 要審查嘛那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種類型我們再適度的給予經貿上的制裁比如說晶片我們外交部有沒有建議我們有開過跨部會的會議有開過跨部會的會議然後不只是晶片這些農產品還有包括礦產所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案\n就是有個清班也請各部位去評估那晶片這個經濟部就拿出來預告了還沒有完成預告程序他是先上網他還要走完整個行政院的程序才算上網是意外還是必要程序他有個60天的時間那個上網是必要程序還是意外應該是這個經濟部他們內部就是作業的方式但還不是對外你上網還比較對外\n那個又不是上內網這是經濟部跟我的說明啦他還沒有真正啟動所以這一個晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉不是那還有要制裁嗎這個的話不會有協調過那還有要制裁嗎\n就是評估過這個是對他的可能的影響對我們的影響都有評估過不是因為當時說要制裁後來拉下來之後我還看到外交部講說因為南非有表達要來談判那看起來是計劃性的作為我計劃要制裁對方嚇到了對方軟化了好我們坐下來談暫時呢這個像日本劍道一樣武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來這個就這一手就很漂亮\n我跟委員說明一下時間點8月1號的時候我們跨部會開會完之後其實我們外交部就有新聞包括經濟部跟相關的單位但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告或是它是因為先上網它還沒有正式啟動60天的預告所以大家經過諮商之後呢我們認為還是要再評估我要釐清這事情南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判\n他們有表達就是有一個新的版本就是那個版本從上次說要重新談判到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了這個版本有進行任何談判嗎他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們我們也請律師在研議這個版本就我們住處的位置所在的都市有沒有提到他們有提出一些條件我們當然還在協商當中\n所以有開始協商對 針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的那個協議那個結略他們有提出他們的立場跟意見他因為晶片制裁所以才趕快寄了一個新的他們事先就知道我們在我們有講我們會基於國家利益我們會所以部長你是我們國家外交部長\n很清楚問一個問題如果他們提出的方案我們不接受或者談判沒有結果我們的制裁清單要不要執行裡面有沒有包含晶片都在我們的評估的項目裡面沒有錯而且各部會也都已經不好的狀況是我說要制裁你結果又拉回來說沒關係 淡姐我們待會再講\n這玩狼來了我跟你講到最後這國家尊嚴就不見了因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估有各部位不只經濟部 農業部還有相關的部我們也不希望損敵三千 滯耗七千嘛所以所有的評估我都贊成但是如果沒有評估東西就往外丟那你就要好好評估收回來比較好還是繼續比較好如果沒有評估就往外丟誰做的誰要負責嘛\n那這是一個國家的整體動作攸關我們國家尊嚴攸關我們在南非住處的地位以及我們國家的利益所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣現在正在進行談判 你談判不成不好意思 我制裁就要祭出了制裁就是一個國家的整體戰力但如果丟出去的制裁好像是來自於不小心PO上網 所以趕快拉下來然後這邊談呢 還在談當中那制裁我們還要在評估當中\n不然怪人家不怕你啊我很怕你們這個晶片出口管制這件事情從頭到尾變成一個烏龍\n這樣就很不好我們都一年前就十月的時候我們就開過跨部會的會然後也進行可能的項目評估但是什麼時候啟動或什麼時候交涉或這個都是通盤的考量部長我們不能推外交說總體外交部部是外交那現在出的問題是部部自己負責\n因為這是很動態的過程當然我們要把籌碼準備好所以我再問一次我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件就你目前了解我們接不接受有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥如果不妥最後談判破裂但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間我們的制裁清單會不會執行\n這個都是動態的因為這個怎麼樣就是透過我們的掌握的籌碼因為這個影響也是會很多方面那因為G20啊11月要開上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後才他們大量的施壓所以這裡面有很複雜的國際包括美中啦那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響跟其他的專業們無關啦\n跟G20也無關美國透過助管直接告訴南非不能對台灣這樣子美國參議院外交委員會決議你這樣做的話我們要停止對南非相關的計畫這都發生過了而我們自己國家面對這事情的態度如果我們保持模糊是我們一致性我也可以接受但不能前拒後攻 前攻後拒\n這樣子的話外交進退會麻煩這個我跟委員再補充包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱那它裡面的不同的包括反對黨所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應我是要提醒部長我支持你所有的做法我現在只是提醒你在這個外交的攻防當中一致性\n政府內部對外態度的一致性國人團結支持外交部的一致性以及外交部面對南非我們談判的強或軟硬或軟態度的一致性否則弄了半天也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄這個不好\n我們戰略目標是一致戰術的一定的這個這個彈性的操作就南非住處地位問題以及所在位置問題\n因為那是我們的財產我們要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動支持經濟制裁相關清單不只經濟制裁我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中雙方在談判當中我們希望維持國家的尊嚴跟地位跟利益如果南非執迷不悟\n我們在外我們有哪些有盟會採取相應的作為在內我們國家相關的經濟相關的制裁作為有哪些如果涉及機密請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會跟本席有沒有辦法\n我們在跟委員做報告因為這裡面涉及很動態包括我們現在有法律訴訟在可能會進行經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉\n這個其實是相當動態 包括AGOA就是美國的非洲機會成長法案這些都連動 包括你講的美國的參議院就是因為這是連動也包括他們自己執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣我們跟友盟理念相近國家的協同的總和戰力如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭或者在這件事情因為我們內部公佈的先後或者有一些模糊\n導致的損害不會只發生在南非會發生在南泰會發生在那個拉美所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之我們看到晶片制裁的模糊這個前後轉折我看不懂就是上去拉下來好像南非要談那好啊可是也沒看到談什麼而轉折當中\n好像來自於來自於一些作業上的問題那這樣子其實是會讓人覺得比較遺憾所以有關這件事情本席要求跟本席一份報告如果委員會需要的話也可以跟我們一份報告希望如果這報告需要列密等就列密等好不好我跟委員簡單講一下齁這個不只是台非\n之間的談判這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁還有法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾以及在野還有理論你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情我再補充一點因為其實他們南非寧可付出很大的代價\n他們也會做一些可能跟美國衝突或者傷害台灣的事所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後結合所有的力量讓這個現在的執政的ANC因為他事實上是沒有過半那選舉也到來所以這個很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程我們再跟委員做報告好 OK 好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:03.191\n謝謝主席麻煩外交部長林佳龍有請林部長時間悠閒我索索問幾項個人關心的問題第一個問題是剛有幾位同仁都問到了我們看到9月25號\n\n00:21.612 --> 00:46.345\n我們宣布要我們在9月25號之前我們宣布因為要制裁南非對台灣種種違法的不適當的外交失去禮節的一些對待跟做法片面的改變我們駐南非大使館的位置地位跟所在地所以我們祭出了晶片出口管制\n\n00:48.145 --> 01:11.610\n當時其實我看起來台灣民間社會是一片都是掌聲認為這是該硬起來的時候那南非那裡也表達了緊急希望呼籲暫停這樣的作為後來在9月25號我們就看到你們宣布暫緩當時還附了一個消息說暫緩的原因是因為南非有要來講要來談了\n\n01:13.649 --> 01:24.484\n我第一個要請教從敲鑼打鼓的晶片制裁到後來只是因為蟲害的水果那個跟這個搞不好也沒有關係這個轉折來自於什麼\n\n01:28.639 --> 01:49.054\n因為這個是經濟部它這個下面的預告是內部的它是有上網所以它並沒有完全到行政院的程序所以那因為出來之後引起廣泛的討論那經濟部有會外交部的意見經濟部預告要對南非\n\n01:50.202 --> 02:14.930\n晶片制裁不是就是出口管制就要審查啦對要審查嘛那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種類型我們再適度的給予經貿上的制裁比如說晶片我們外交部有沒有建議我們有開過跨部會的會議有開過跨部會的會議然後不只是晶片這些農產品還有包括礦產所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案\n\n02:15.710 --> 02:42.663\n就是有個清班也請各部位去評估那晶片這個經濟部就拿出來預告了還沒有完成預告程序他是先上網他還要走完整個行政院的程序才算上網是意外還是必要程序他有個60天的時間那個上網是必要程序還是意外應該是這個經濟部他們內部就是作業的方式但還不是對外你上網還比較對外\n\n02:45.342 --> 02:56.001\n那個又不是上內網這是經濟部跟我的說明啦他還沒有真正啟動所以這一個晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉不是那還有要制裁嗎這個的話不會有協調過那還有要制裁嗎\n\n02:59.773 --> 03:27.127\n就是評估過這個是對他的可能的影響對我們的影響都有評估過不是因為當時說要制裁後來拉下來之後我還看到外交部講說因為南非有表達要來談判那看起來是計劃性的作為我計劃要制裁對方嚇到了對方軟化了好我們坐下來談暫時呢這個像日本劍道一樣武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來這個就這一手就很漂亮\n\n03:28.067 --> 03:56.632\n我跟委員說明一下時間點8月1號的時候我們跨部會開會完之後其實我們外交部就有新聞包括經濟部跟相關的單位但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告或是它是因為先上網它還沒有正式啟動60天的預告所以大家經過諮商之後呢我們認為還是要再評估我要釐清這事情南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判\n\n03:57.692 --> 04:21.880\n他們有表達就是有一個新的版本就是那個版本從上次說要重新談判到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了這個版本有進行任何談判嗎他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們我們也請律師在研議這個版本就我們住處的位置所在的都市有沒有提到他們有提出一些條件我們當然還在協商當中\n\n04:24.093 --> 04:48.854\n所以有開始協商對針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的那個協議那個結略他們有提出他們的立場跟意見他因為晶片制裁所以才趕快寄了一個新的他們事先就知道我們在我們有講我們會基於國家利益我們會所以部長你是我們國家外交部長\n\n04:50.128 --> 05:08.353\n很清楚問一個問題如果他們提出的方案我們不接受或者談判沒有結果我們的制裁清單要不要執行裡面有沒有包含晶片都在我們的評估的項目裡面沒有錯而且各部會也都已經不好的狀況是我說要制裁你結果又拉回來說沒關係淡姐我們待會再講\n\n05:09.557 --> 05:36.130\n這玩狼來了我跟你講到最後這國家尊嚴就不見了因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估有各部位不只經濟部農業部還有相關的部我們也不希望損敵三千滯耗七千嘛所以所有的評估我都贊成但是如果沒有評估東西就往外丟那你就要好好評估收回來比較好還是繼續比較好如果沒有評估就往外丟誰做的誰要負責嘛\n\n05:37.045 --> 06:05.013\n那這是一個國家的整體動作攸關我們國家尊嚴攸關我們在南非住處的地位以及我們國家的利益所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣現在正在進行談判你談判不成不好意思我制裁就要祭出了制裁就是一個國家的整體戰力但如果丟出去的制裁好像是來自於不小心PO上網所以趕快拉下來然後這邊談呢還在談當中那制裁我們還要在評估當中\n\n06:06.308 --> 06:12.867\n不然怪人家不怕你啊我很怕你們這個晶片出口管制這件事情從頭到尾變成一個烏龍\n\n06:15.287 --> 06:36.782\n這樣就很不好我們都一年前就十月的時候我們就開過跨部會的會然後也進行可能的項目評估但是什麼時候啟動或什麼時候交涉或這個都是通盤的考量部長我們不能推外交說總體外交部部是外交那現在出的問題是部部自己負責\n\n06:37.952 --> 06:57.784\n因為這是很動態的過程當然我們要把籌碼準備好所以我再問一次我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件就你目前了解我們接不接受有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥如果不妥最後談判破裂但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間我們的制裁清單會不會執行\n\n07:00.340 --> 07:24.738\n這個都是動態的因為這個怎麼樣就是透過我們的掌握的籌碼因為這個影響也是會很多方面那因為G20啊11月要開上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後才他們大量的施壓所以這裡面有很複雜的國際包括美中啦那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響跟其他的專業們無關啦\n\n07:27.213 --> 07:49.760\n跟G20也無關美國透過助管直接告訴南非不能對台灣這樣子美國參議院外交委員會決議你這樣做的話我們要停止對南非相關的計畫這都發生過了而我們自己國家面對這事情的態度如果我們保持模糊是我們一致性我也可以接受但不能前拒後攻前攻後拒\n\n07:50.400 --> 08:14.632\n這樣子的話外交進退會麻煩這個我跟委員再補充包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱那它裡面的不同的包括反對黨所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應我是要提醒部長我支持你所有的做法我現在只是提醒你在這個外交的攻防當中一致性\n\n08:15.768 --> 08:36.656\n政府內部對外態度的一致性國人團結支持外交部的一致性以及外交部面對南非我們談判的強或軟硬或軟態度的一致性否則弄了半天也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄這個不好\n\n08:37.900 --> 08:47.780\n我們戰略目標是一致戰術的一定的這個這個彈性的操作就南非住處地位問題以及所在位置問題\n\n08:49.731 --> 09:09.430\n因為那是我們的財產我們要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動支持經濟制裁相關清單不只經濟制裁我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中雙方在談判當中我們希望維持國家的尊嚴跟地位跟利益如果南非執迷不悟\n\n09:10.031 --> 09:23.568\n我們在外我們有哪些有盟會採取相應的作為在內我們國家相關的經濟相關的制裁作為有哪些如果涉及機密請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會跟本席有沒有辦法\n\n09:24.977 --> 09:26.198\n我們在跟委員做報告因為這裡面涉及很動態包括我們現在有法律訴訟在可能會進行經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉\n\n09:41.192 --> 10:05.485\n這個其實是相當動態包括AGOA就是美國的非洲機會成長法案這些都連動包括你講的美國的參議院就是因為這是連動也包括他們自己執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣我們跟友盟理念相近國家的協同的總和戰力如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭或者在這件事情因為我們內部公佈的先後或者有一些模糊\n\n10:06.745 --> 10:28.511\n導致的損害不會只發生在南非會發生在南泰會發生在那個拉美所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之我們看到晶片制裁的模糊這個前後轉折我看不懂就是上去拉下來好像南非要談那好啊可是也沒看到談什麼而轉折當中\n\n10:29.821 --> 10:48.897\n好像來自於來自於一些作業上的問題那這樣子其實是會讓人覺得比較遺憾所以有關這件事情本席要求跟本席一份報告如果委員會需要的話也可以跟我們一份報告希望如果這報告需要列密等就列密等好不好我跟委員簡單講一下齁這個不只是台非\n\n10:50.883 --> 11:13.722\n之間的談判這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁還有法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾以及在野還有理論你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情我再補充一點因為其實他們南非寧可付出很大的代價\n\n11:15.199 --> 11:34.332\n他們也會做一些可能跟美國衝突或者傷害台灣的事所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後結合所有的力量讓這個現在的執政的ANC因為他事實上是沒有過半那選舉也到來所以這個很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程我們再跟委員做報告好OK好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":3.191,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩外交部長林佳龍有請林部長時間悠閒 我索索問幾項個人關心的問題第一個問題是剛有幾位同仁都問到了我們看到9月25號"},{"start":21.612,"end":46.345,"text":"我們宣布要我們在9月25號之前我們宣布因為要制裁南非對台灣種種違法的不適當的外交失去禮節的一些對待跟做法片面的改變我們駐南非大使館的位置地位跟所在地所以我們祭出了晶片出口管制"},{"start":48.145,"end":71.61,"text":"當時其實我看起來台灣民間社會是一片都是掌聲 認為這是該硬起來的時候那南非那裡也表達了緊急希望呼籲暫停這樣的作為後來在9月25號我們就看到你們宣布暫緩當時還附了一個消息說暫緩的原因是因為南非有要來講 要來談了"},{"start":73.649,"end":84.484,"text":"我第一個要請教從敲鑼打鼓的晶片制裁到後來只是因為蟲害的水果那個跟這個搞不好也沒有關係這個轉折來自於什麼"},{"start":88.639,"end":109.054,"text":"因為這個是經濟部它這個下面的預告是內部的它是有上網所以它並沒有完全到行政院的程序所以那因為出來之後引起廣泛的討論那經濟部有會外交部的意見經濟部預告要對南非"},{"start":110.202,"end":134.93,"text":"晶片制裁不是 就是出口管制就要審查啦對 要審查嘛那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種類型我們再適度的給予經貿上的制裁比如說晶片我們外交部有沒有建議我們有開過跨部會的會議有開過跨部會的會議然後不只是晶片這些農產品還有包括礦產所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案"},{"start":135.71,"end":162.663,"text":"就是有個清班也請各部位去評估那晶片這個經濟部就拿出來預告了還沒有完成預告程序他是先上網他還要走完整個行政院的程序才算上網是意外還是必要程序他有個60天的時間那個上網是必要程序還是意外應該是這個經濟部他們內部就是作業的方式但還不是對外你上網還比較對外"},{"start":165.342,"end":176.001,"text":"那個又不是上內網這是經濟部跟我的說明啦他還沒有真正啟動所以這一個晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉不是那還有要制裁嗎這個的話不會有協調過那還有要制裁嗎"},{"start":179.773,"end":207.127,"text":"就是評估過這個是對他的可能的影響對我們的影響都有評估過不是因為當時說要制裁後來拉下來之後我還看到外交部講說因為南非有表達要來談判那看起來是計劃性的作為我計劃要制裁對方嚇到了對方軟化了好我們坐下來談暫時呢這個像日本劍道一樣武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來這個就這一手就很漂亮"},{"start":208.067,"end":236.632,"text":"我跟委員說明一下時間點8月1號的時候我們跨部會開會完之後其實我們外交部就有新聞包括經濟部跟相關的單位但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告或是它是因為先上網它還沒有正式啟動60天的預告所以大家經過諮商之後呢我們認為還是要再評估我要釐清這事情南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判"},{"start":237.692,"end":261.88,"text":"他們有表達就是有一個新的版本就是那個版本從上次說要重新談判到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了這個版本有進行任何談判嗎他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們我們也請律師在研議這個版本就我們住處的位置所在的都市有沒有提到他們有提出一些條件我們當然還在協商當中"},{"start":264.093,"end":288.854,"text":"所以有開始協商對 針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的那個協議那個結略他們有提出他們的立場跟意見他因為晶片制裁所以才趕快寄了一個新的他們事先就知道我們在我們有講我們會基於國家利益我們會所以部長你是我們國家外交部長"},{"start":290.128,"end":308.353,"text":"很清楚問一個問題如果他們提出的方案我們不接受或者談判沒有結果我們的制裁清單要不要執行裡面有沒有包含晶片都在我們的評估的項目裡面沒有錯而且各部會也都已經不好的狀況是我說要制裁你結果又拉回來說沒關係 淡姐我們待會再講"},{"start":309.557,"end":336.13,"text":"這玩狼來了我跟你講到最後這國家尊嚴就不見了因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估有各部位不只經濟部 農業部還有相關的部我們也不希望損敵三千 滯耗七千嘛所以所有的評估我都贊成但是如果沒有評估東西就往外丟那你就要好好評估收回來比較好還是繼續比較好如果沒有評估就往外丟誰做的誰要負責嘛"},{"start":337.045,"end":365.013,"text":"那這是一個國家的整體動作攸關我們國家尊嚴攸關我們在南非住處的地位以及我們國家的利益所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣現在正在進行談判 你談判不成不好意思 我制裁就要祭出了制裁就是一個國家的整體戰力但如果丟出去的制裁好像是來自於不小心PO上網 所以趕快拉下來然後這邊談呢 還在談當中那制裁我們還要在評估當中"},{"start":366.308,"end":372.867,"text":"不然怪人家不怕你啊我很怕你們這個晶片出口管制這件事情從頭到尾變成一個烏龍"},{"start":375.287,"end":396.782,"text":"這樣就很不好我們都一年前就十月的時候我們就開過跨部會的會然後也進行可能的項目評估但是什麼時候啟動或什麼時候交涉或這個都是通盤的考量部長我們不能推外交說總體外交部部是外交那現在出的問題是部部自己負責"},{"start":397.952,"end":417.784,"text":"因為這是很動態的過程當然我們要把籌碼準備好所以我再問一次我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件就你目前了解我們接不接受有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥如果不妥最後談判破裂但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間我們的制裁清單會不會執行"},{"start":420.34,"end":444.738,"text":"這個都是動態的因為這個怎麼樣就是透過我們的掌握的籌碼因為這個影響也是會很多方面那因為G20啊11月要開上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後才他們大量的施壓所以這裡面有很複雜的國際包括美中啦那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響跟其他的專業們無關啦"},{"start":447.213,"end":469.76,"text":"跟G20也無關美國透過助管直接告訴南非不能對台灣這樣子美國參議院外交委員會決議你這樣做的話我們要停止對南非相關的計畫這都發生過了而我們自己國家面對這事情的態度如果我們保持模糊是我們一致性我也可以接受但不能前拒後攻 前攻後拒"},{"start":470.4,"end":494.632,"text":"這樣子的話外交進退會麻煩這個我跟委員再補充包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱那它裡面的不同的包括反對黨所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應我是要提醒部長我支持你所有的做法我現在只是提醒你在這個外交的攻防當中一致性"},{"start":495.768,"end":516.656,"text":"政府內部對外態度的一致性國人團結支持外交部的一致性以及外交部面對南非我們談判的強或軟硬或軟態度的一致性否則弄了半天也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄這個不好"},{"start":517.9,"end":527.78,"text":"我們戰略目標是一致戰術的一定的這個這個彈性的操作就南非住處地位問題以及所在位置問題"},{"start":529.731,"end":549.43,"text":"因為那是我們的財產我們要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動支持經濟制裁相關清單不只經濟制裁我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中雙方在談判當中我們希望維持國家的尊嚴跟地位跟利益如果南非執迷不悟"},{"start":550.031,"end":563.568,"text":"我們在外我們有哪些有盟會採取相應的作為在內我們國家相關的經濟相關的制裁作為有哪些如果涉及機密請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會跟本席有沒有辦法"},{"start":564.977,"end":566.198,"text":"我們在跟委員做報告因為這裡面涉及很動態包括我們現在有法律訴訟在可能會進行經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉"},{"start":581.192,"end":605.485,"text":"這個其實是相當動態 包括AGOA就是美國的非洲機會成長法案這些都連動 包括你講的美國的參議院就是因為這是連動也包括他們自己執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣我們跟友盟理念相近國家的協同的總和戰力如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭或者在這件事情因為我們內部公佈的先後或者有一些模糊"},{"start":606.745,"end":628.511,"text":"導致的損害不會只發生在南非會發生在南泰會發生在那個拉美所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之我們看到晶片制裁的模糊這個前後轉折我看不懂就是上去拉下來好像南非要談那好啊可是也沒看到談什麼而轉折當中"},{"start":629.821,"end":648.897,"text":"好像來自於來自於一些作業上的問題那這樣子其實是會讓人覺得比較遺憾所以有關這件事情本席要求跟本席一份報告如果委員會需要的話也可以跟我們一份報告希望如果這報告需要列密等就列密等好不好我跟委員簡單講一下齁這個不只是台非"},{"start":650.883,"end":673.722,"text":"之間的談判這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁還有法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾以及在野還有理論你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情我再補充一點因為其實他們南非寧可付出很大的代價"},{"start":675.199,"end":694.332,"text":"他們也會做一些可能跟美國衝突或者傷害台灣的事所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後結合所有的力量讓這個現在的執政的ANC因為他事實上是沒有過半那選舉也到來所以這個很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程我們再跟委員做報告好 OK 好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩外交部長林佳龍。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：早。"],["王委員定宇：時間有限，我速問幾項個人關心的問題，第一個問題剛有幾位同仁都問到了，我們在9月25號之前宣布，因為要制裁南非對臺灣種種違法的、不適當的、外交失去禮節的對待跟作法，片面的改變我們駐南非大使館的位置、地位跟所在地，所以我們祭出了晶片出口管制。當時我看起來臺灣民間社會一片都是掌聲，認為這是該硬起來的時候，而南非也緊急表達了希望、呼籲暫停這樣的作為。後來在9月25號，我們就看到你們宣布暫緩，當時還附了一個消息說暫緩的原因是因為南非要來談了，第一個我要請教，從敲鑼打鼓的晶片制裁，到後來只是因為蟲害的水果……那個跟這個搞不好也沒有關係，這個轉折來自於什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：這個是經濟部下面的預告、是內部的，它是有上網，所以它並沒有完全到行政院的程序，因為出來之後引起廣泛的討論，而經濟部有會外交部的意見……"],["王委員定宇：是經濟部預告要對南非晶片制裁？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，就是出口管制，要審查嘛！"],["王委員定宇：那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種劣行，我們適度的給予經貿上的制裁，比如說晶片，我們外交部有沒有建議？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有開過跨部會的會議。"],["王委員定宇：有開過跨部會會議？"],["林部長佳龍：然後不只是晶片，這些農產品還有包括礦產……"],["王委員定宇：所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案？"],["林部長佳龍：就是有個清單，也請各部會去評估……"],["王委員定宇：清單裡面包含晶片？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以晶片部分經濟部就把它先預告了？"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有完成預告程序，它是先上網，還要走完整個行政院的程序才算。"],["王委員定宇：上網是意外還是必要程序？"],["林部長佳龍：它有個60天的時間……"],["王委員定宇：上網是必要程序，還是意外？"],["林部長佳龍：應該是經濟部內部作業的方式，但還不是對外正式的……"],["王委員定宇：上網了還不叫對外？又不是上內網！"],["林部長佳龍：這是經濟部給我的說明啦，它還沒有真正啟動。"],["王委員定宇：所以這晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，跨部會有協調過，但是……"],["王委員定宇：那還有要制裁嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：就是對他們可能的影響和對我們的影響，都有評估過。"],["王委員定宇：不是，因為當時說要制裁，後來拉下來之後，我還看到外交部講：因為南非有表達要來談判。因此看起來是計畫性的作為，我計畫要制裁，對方嚇到了，對方軟化了，好，我們暫時坐下來談，像日本劍道一樣，武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來，這一手就很漂亮。所以我剛才聽到的是……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明一下時間點，8月1號我們跨部會開會完，其實外交部就有行文包括經濟部跟相關的單位，但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告，或者它是因為先上網，但還沒有正式啟動60天的預告，所以大家經過諮商之後，我們認為還是要再評估……"],["王委員定宇：我要釐清這件事情，南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判？"],["林部長佳龍：他們有表達有一個新的版本，就是文字的……"],["王委員定宇：那個版本從上次說要重新談判，到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了，這個版本有進行任何談判嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們。"],["王委員定宇：這個版本，就我們駐處……"],["林部長佳龍：我們也請律師在研議。"],["王委員定宇：這個版本，有沒有提到我們駐處的位置、所在的都市？"],["林部長佳龍：他們有提出一些條件，當然我們還在協商當中。"],["王委員定宇：所以有開啟協商？"],["林部長佳龍：對，針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的協議，他們有提出他們的立場跟意見。"],["王委員定宇：有人說它因為晶片制裁，所以才趕快寄了一個新的offer？"],["林部長佳龍：他們事先就知道，我們有講，基於國家利益我們會……"],["王委員定宇：你是我們國家的外交部長，我現在很清楚問一個問題，如果他們提出的方案，我們不接受，或者談判沒有結果，我們的制裁清單要不要執行？裡面有沒有包含晶片？"],["林部長佳龍：這個都在我們評估的項目裡面，沒有錯，而且各部會也都已經……"],["王委員定宇：不好的狀況就是我說要制裁你，結果又拉回來說沒關係，你等一下，我們待會再講，玩狼來了，我跟你講，到最後國家尊嚴就不見了，也嚇不到人了！"],["林部長佳龍：因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估，由各部會經濟部、農業部，還有相關的部。"],["王委員定宇：評估我接受，因為茲事體大，我們也不希望損敵三千，自耗七千，所以所有的評估我都贊成。但是如果沒有評估，東西就往外丟，那你就要好好評估是收回來比較好，還是繼續比較好，如果沒有評估就往外丟，誰做的就誰要負責嘛！這是一個國家的整體動作，攸關我們國家尊嚴，攸關我們在南非駐處的地位以及國家的利益，所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣，現在正在進行談判，當談判不成，不好意思，我制裁就要祭出了，這才叫國家整體戰力。但如果丟出去的制裁，好像是來自於不小心po上網，所以趕快拉下來，然後在這邊說還在談，因此制裁我們還要再評估，難怪人家不怕你啊！我很怕你們晶片出口管制這件事情，從頭到尾變成一個烏龍，這樣就很不好。"],["林部長佳龍：我們一年前、10月的時候，我們就開過跨部會的會，然後也進行可能的項目評估，但是什麼時候啟動……"],["王委員定宇：但外交是外交主責……"],["林部長佳龍：或什麼時候交涉，這個都是基於通盤的考量。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我們不能推外交的時候，總體外交所以部部是外交，現在出了問題，是部部自己負責。"],["林部長佳龍：因為這是很動態的過程，當然我們要把籌碼準備好。"],["王委員定宇：所以我再問一次，我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件，就你目前了解，我們接不接受？"],["林部長佳龍：有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥。"],["王委員定宇：好，如果不妥，最後談判破裂，我們制裁清單……"],["林部長佳龍：但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間需要交涉。"],["王委員定宇：會不會執行？"],["林部長佳龍：這個都是動態的，怎麼樣透過我們掌握的籌碼，這個影響也會是很多方面，因為G20在11月要開，上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後他們大量的施壓，所以這裡面有很複雜的國際，包括美中……"],["王委員定宇：不是因為金磚，那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響，跟其他的磚根本無關，跟G20也無關，美國透過駐館直接告訴南非不能對臺灣這樣子，美國參議院外交委員會決議，你這樣做的話，我們要停止對南非相關的計畫，這都發生過了。而我們自己國家面對這件事情的態度，如果保持模糊是我們的一致性，我也可以接受，但不能前倨後恭、前恭後倨，這樣子的話，外交進退會很麻煩的。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員再補充，包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱，它裡面不同的……"],["王委員定宇：這個不宜……"],["林部長佳龍：包括反對黨，所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應……"],["王委員定宇：我們不去評論別國的內政，我是要提醒部長，我支持你所有的作法，我現在只是提醒你，在外交的攻防當中要有一致性，政府內部對外態度的一致性、國人團結支持外交部的一致性，以及外交部面對南非談判的強或軟、硬或軟態度的一致性，否則弄了半天，也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄，這個不好。"],["林部長佳龍：我們戰略目標是一致，但戰術上一定彈性的操作，當然我們……"],["王委員定宇：就南非駐處地位問題以及所在位置問題……"],["林部長佳龍：因為那是我們的財產。"],["王委員定宇：本席可不可以要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動經濟制裁相關清單？"],["林部長佳龍：不只經濟制裁，我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中。"],["王委員定宇：我們現在雙方在談判當中，我們希望維持國家的尊嚴、地位跟利益，如果南非執迷不悟，在外，我們有哪些友盟會採取相應的作為？在內，我們國家相關的經濟、相關的制裁作為有哪些？如果涉及機密，請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會和本席，有沒有辦法？"],["林部長佳龍：我們再跟委員做報告。"],["王委員定宇：但也許不是只有我想聽，搞不好其他同仁……"],["林部長佳龍：因為這裡面涉及很動態，包括我們現在有法律訴訟可能會進行……"],["王委員定宇：這個是base on 1980年的那個部分……"],["林部長佳龍：經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉，這個其實是相當動態的，包括AGOA，就是美國的非洲成長與機會法案，這些都連動，包括你講的美國的參議院……"],["王委員定宇：就是因為這是連動，這也是……"],["林部長佳龍：也包括他們執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣。"],["王委員定宇：我們跟友盟、理念相近國家協同的總和戰力，如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭，或者這件事情因為我們內部公布的先後或者有一些模糊，導致的損害不會只發生在南非，會發生在南太、會發生在拉美，所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之。我們看到晶片制裁的模糊，這個前後的轉折我看不懂，就是上去、拉下來，好像南非要談，那好啊！可是也沒看到談什麼，而轉折當中，好像來自於一些作業上的問題，這樣子其實會讓人覺得比較遺憾。所以有關這件事情，本席要求給本席一份報告，如果委員會需要的話，也給本委員會一份報告，如果這份報告需要列密等就列密等，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員簡單講一下，這個不只是臺非之間的談判，這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁、法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫……"],["王委員定宇：對，我沒有侷限你。"],["林部長佳龍：包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾……"],["王委員定宇：我沒有侷限你內部的內容，我的意思是，你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情，否則像這樣模糊不行。"],["林部長佳龍：我再補充一點，其實南非寧可付出很大的代價，他們可能會做一些跟美國衝突或者傷害臺灣的事，所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後，結合所有的力量……"],["王委員定宇：請外交部怎麼樣去……因為時間的關係……"],["林部長佳龍：讓現在執政的ANC，因為他事實上是沒有過半，選舉也要到來了，所以很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程，我們再跟委員做報告，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：好。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的是賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00001"}}}