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0.875}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 201.342, \"end\": 201.362, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 202.662, \"end\": 227.091, \"text\": \"謝謝委員的關心 現在委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉事實上民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來事實上經過交叉分析你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在自由這個寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高那這個就是趨勢就是很清楚那我是說今天你既然要\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 202.662, \"end\": 202.762, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 202.762, \"end\": 203.022, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 203.022, \"end\": 203.142, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 203.142, \"end\": 203.282, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 203.282, \"end\": 203.482, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 203.482, \"end\": 203.563, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 203.563, \"end\": 203.883, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 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00:00:39,770\n委員好董事長好我想一開始也是一樣針對我們高鐵年輕車廂的部分跟舊教育董事長我想今天很多委員都提到當初推動這個年輕車廂當然是利益良善但是我想上路之後很多的家長很多的民眾都在反映可能帶小孩有壓力或者是旅客之間對年輕車廂的定義或對年輕車廂的認知不同所以導致很多的不同的衝突包含很多的網路上的自己的經驗也好或是我個人帶小孩的經驗也好都有相關的狀況發生了\n\n3\n00:00:41,431 --> 00:01:03,717\n所以當然董事長現在講說這個部分會做調整當然就是說千錯萬錯都是高鐵的錯這個部分我也知道這個事情但是我想我們看到說高鐵在這個事情上面才提到說針對寧定車廂的爭議你們都說民調九成支持這樣的做法但是我去討要有一下資料我們這個做分析看一下\n\n4\n00:01:04,810 --> 00:01:22,861\n民調你的題目裡面當初在問說一年內有沒有搭乘過高鐵的部分在民調的抽樣裡面只有44%的人有搭過高鐵那你抽樣的對象55.7%的人他沒有搭過高鐵那即便有搭過高鐵在第五題裡面問到說這過去\n\n5\n00:01:24,741 --> 00:01:49,286\n一年裡面平均一個月搭乘高鐵次數的比例多少少於一次的又高達55.6%那一到五次的是38.2%換句話說多數的民眾他的高鐵搭乘的經驗跟次數在過去一個月裡面以樣本來說來講他並不是最多的很多人都是偶爾搭一下這狀況那再來從這個抽象你可以看到出來說\n\n6\n00:01:51,277 --> 00:02:02,110\n第三題在問說這個有沒有搭過高鐵有的人是回到5到11題但是你在問1314在問寧靜車廂措施的時候這些人包含了他沒有搭高鐵的人他也在回應這個問題\n\n7\n00:02:03,427 --> 00:02:20,890\n就是說你看喔問你知不知道說9月22號我們有推出寧靜車廂然後有相關的有這些做法知道的人只有38.3%不知道的人有61.7%有人不知道這個政策那不知道這個政策的人他還在回應第14題那請問你支持不支持\n\n8\n00:02:21,892 --> 00:02:49,918\n你就沒搭高鐵你就不是我們的TA你沒有在搭高鐵的經驗裡面然後你不知道這個政策你不知道這個政策之後你還可以回答說那你支不支持所以我想這個比例上在這個民調上面你們在做這個客戶分析的時候我想這個取樣我想是一定有一定程度的問題啦就如果今天你要做大家正常使用的不管是這個經濟商也好還是商務商也好我們高鐵是有APP的嘛\n\n9\n00:02:50,731 --> 00:02:52,479\n今天你有IPP然後裡面有會員\n\n10\n00:02:53,632 --> 00:03:21,362\n我們也是會員啊那至少你可以透過你的APP去抽樣去了解說到底真實經常在搭乘的這群人他到底對於寧靜車廂或對於高鐵的哪些滿意度或不滿意度他的想法是什麼而不是透過這種大型的抽樣民調因為你這個抽樣就像我提到的光是有搭過高鐵的人在你抽樣的民調裡面只佔了百分之四十四而已沒搭過的人有百分之五十五沒搭過的人又在回應你現在的政策那不是很弔詭的事情嗎董事長\n\n11\n00:03:22,662 --> 00:03:47,091\n謝謝委員的關心現在委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉事實上民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來事實上經過交叉分析你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在自由這個寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高那這個就是趨勢就是很清楚那我是說今天你既然要\n\n12\n00:03:48,680 --> 00:04:15,112\n我們要針對說我們搭高鐵的人的這個狀況嘛那我就說你這個你這個抽樣分析裡面的你的交叉分析裡面包含了所謂我剛剛提到的你的九成裡面其中有55%的人他是沒有搭高鐵經驗的喔我的意思是這樣子對可是我們如果只把有搭高鐵經驗的人獨立出來他超過更超過九成因為你今天這個是針對你的客戶我們今天你到高鐵公司的客戶我們今天應該是針對說就像我剛剛提到了我們其實下次要做這樣的調查\n\n13\n00:04:16,232 --> 00:04:41,222\n除了去廣泛地做抽樣之外其實我們自己是有APP的是有自己的是有會員系統的應該是針對我們封閉式就是說這個會員群體或這個經常搭高鐵這群人去瞭解他的需求我們也會建立起這樣子的一個調查的管道因為這個親子車廂的問題跟這個寧定車廂我覺得這個政策上並不是互斥的但是因為執行面上有這個狀況導致說很多人覺得說\n\n14\n00:04:44,704 --> 00:04:55,579\n帶小孩搭高鐵會有這個影響他會覺得會有壓力然後又有乘客有相關的這些問題所以我們剛剛臨時地下談希望說那不然因為剛剛\n\n15\n00:04:56,832 --> 00:05:17,566\n五民主委員提到了你現在的政策是變成高鐵變成全線叫做寧靜列車我們回到一個問題在董事長你在頒布寧靜車廂政策之前我們回想一下在沒有寧靜車廂政策之前如果身邊的人他看影片不用耳機或大聲喧鬧或吵鬧有沒有民眾會投訴\n\n16\n00:05:18,852 --> 00:05:34,919\n會投訴嘛對不對會投訴但是我們沒有法源可以禁止他你現在也沒有法源我們是在這個我們是在我們的跟顧客之間的這個運輸契約當中明定了3C戴耳機以及講手機到選管已經明定出來了\n\n17\n00:05:35,839 --> 00:06:00,635\n我就說那過去一樣他同樣是可以用勸導的方式嘛我就說就在你在正式頒布之前他一樣有勸導的方式可以去做這個事情過去是勸導但是他不遵守我們並沒有執行的法源那你們現在有真的執行的這個狀況是怎麼樣我們有執行的法源就是在我們的運送契約當中已經明定了3C帶耳機跟手機到玄關如果旅客不聽高鐵是可以拒載\n\n18\n00:06:01,676 --> 00:06:24,332\n董事長其實我沒有反對這些事情我講說這個事情是可以的只是說全列包含說針對什麼3C戴耳機這個當然你們要把它放在企業裡面這沒問題那只是說像帶小孩或講話聊天等等在過去它基本上是用勸導的方式那多數的人都會尊重這個列車長的這個指揮嘛在我的經驗來講是這樣子嘛\n\n19\n00:06:25,172 --> 00:06:34,304\n那就是說現在既然要推這樣的車廂要推這樣的要不要針對寧靜車廂的部分去定義明確一點它的寧靜比如說不是只有針對3C\n\n20\n00:06:35,854 --> 00:07:01,899\n戴耳機等等他的就是真正的寧靜車廂因為上車尊重其他人不要帶不要把音量不要把這個什麼影片放出來要戴耳機然後不要戴那個這個理論上是一個大車的文化這不一定是法規這是文化問題但是你可能要把它我們本來想像說大家期待寧靜車廂是真正的就是說我一兩節可能商務車廂或是可能第六節或哪一節等等的他是真正的寧靜車廂包含大聲喧嘩\n\n21\n00:07:04,463 --> 00:07:27,696\n講話聊天等等都要都要一定的去去比例去控制這個是我覺得高鐵公司包含說你在費用上去做些區隔我覺得消費是能夠接受的但是你做全列我覺得這是有一定程度的執行商會有問題啦好不好董事長好我想這個部分委員的意見我們會來思考好董事長謝謝董事長請回那我先請這個我們今天的主角本來是主角應安會我們林組委\n\n22\n00:07:34,156 --> 00:08:01,341\n委員好主委我想最近有發生這個漢市就是長榮空服員這個請假的問題然後他當然這個不幸的往生等等那我們看到說IKEA的這個民間組織裡面有提到說其實疲勞跟過勞屬於制度性的風險那我們在這個目前運安會的這種資源報告的這種東西裡面當然資源報告的目的應該是為了預防跟提出可能潛在的風險來評估說哪些問題會造成這個非安的風險\n\n23\n00:08:02,930 --> 00:08:29,107\nIKEA有提到說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險的那我想在現階段我們的育安會的資源報告系統裡面只有這個採購人士勞資關鍵增益等等算是可以登錄那過去這些年的基金來講我們目前這個資源報告上線6年了花了440萬那它的簡報的這個數字它的整體的數據也不多所以我要今天想說利用剛好有這個案例發生了過去大家也比較陌生就這種資源報告系統\n\n24\n00:08:29,887 --> 00:08:55,618\n如果今天空服員也好或者是駕駛員也好或是不管是在天上飛的還是剛剛提到的台鐵高鐵或是公路運輸等等的這些員工他如果過勞或他覺得疲倦或覺得怎麼樣他在目前為止他是沒有在資源報告系統裡面對不對對那未來有沒有機會把它列入因為這個是我的建議啦你要把它列入嗎有沒有機會把它列入放進去所謂的資源報告系統裡面\n\n25\n00:08:56,804 --> 00:09:10,685\n如果將來有一些案例從個案變成慢慢變成系統性或通案的時候會被列入這個這個目前的統計的這個這個樣本還沒到那個程度都有可能性\n\n26\n00:09:11,365 --> 00:09:33,295\n你說因為員工過勞導致的非安風險還沒有明確嗎如果在調查事件裡面在調查事件裡面如果被撈出來說這個是有可能的話就變成不見你說只有說這個有非安事故或什麼事故會變成會擴大出來所以現在還沒有到樣本數到哪裏去\n\n27\n00:09:34,074 --> 00:09:49,527\n主委你看一下我為什麼特別要講這個是因為這個不是我講這個是國際平衡組織講的就是說他認為說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險那如果今天這個制度性風險沒有辦法在事前或在你們的數據裡面被揭露的話\n\n28\n00:09:50,834 --> 00:10:16,989\n你們怎麼知道你們要怎麼知道有沒有人過勞或是你們要怎麼知道有沒有人我們可以在志願報告系統裡面這個加長宣導說這個請他們也可以提報這樣子的話選項要有啊好像選項是沒有的對不對就是沒有這個選項就是說大家過去當然認為說過勞啦或是說上班時數等等的是屬於勞動部的事情是屬於民鄉局的事情但是今天既然有這個志願報告系統你們是為了評估風險的\n\n29\n00:10:19,645 --> 00:10:48,508\n是預防的今天不是說我通報了馬上就要懲處或怎麼樣不是你們的工作不是這個你們工作應該是為了風險的評估嘛今天如果有人過勞有人時數不對要開罰那個是勞動部的事但今天我們運安會我們要處理的是整體的風險風險狀況那如果今天這個風險狀況能夠提前掌握或是你們很明確知道說國內的不是國內就以航空業為例嘛哪家航空公司在哪個航班有特別多人\n\n30\n00:10:50,199 --> 00:11:19,719\n他會來填這個志願報告說我們這個時數有點問題那是不是你們就能夠提早的知道某些航班可能他的排班有問題他的駕駛可能問題他的人數可能問題提前的預防嘛不要說真的事情發生了然後我們再回過來說來檢討什麼法律面等等的要修法等等的這個在你們行政作為上應該就能夠去提前預防啦對作為未來可以放進去嗎事實上本身上志願報告是沒有限制本來他就可以提報\n\n31\n00:11:20,539 --> 00:11:37,788\n那下來我們可以我們新島的時候可以我們跟業界或者是跟民航局或跟他們開會的時候講說這個應該以後會被拉進來所以主委未來這些不管是空服員也好駕駛員也好是我們這個台鐵高鐵公路運輸等等的人認為自己好主委謝謝我就是要這個答案好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1192\t3483\t好 謝主席 我們先請高鐵石董事長\n11755\t39770\t委員好董事長好我想一開始也是一樣針對我們高鐵年輕車廂的部分跟舊教育董事長我想今天很多委員都提到當初推動這個年輕車廂當然是利益良善但是我想上路之後很多的家長很多的民眾都在反映可能帶小孩有壓力或者是旅客之間對年輕車廂的定義或對年輕車廂的認知不同所以導致很多的不同的衝突包含很多的網路上的自己的經驗也好或是我個人帶小孩的經驗也好都有相關的狀況發生了\n41431\t63717\t所以當然董事長現在講說這個部分會做調整當然就是說千錯萬錯都是高鐵的錯這個部分我也知道這個事情但是我想我們看到說高鐵在這個事情上面才提到說針對寧定車廂的爭議你們都說民調九成支持這樣的做法但是我去討 要有一下資料我們這個做分析看一下\n64810\t82861\t民調你的題目裡面當初在問說一年內有沒有搭乘過高鐵的部分在民調的抽樣裡面只有44%的人有搭過高鐵那你抽樣的對象55.7%的人他沒有搭過高鐵那即便有搭過高鐵在第五題裡面問到說這過去\n84741\t109286\t一年裡面平均一個月搭乘高鐵次數的比例多少少於一次的又高達55.6%那一到五次的是38.2%換句話說多數的民眾他的高鐵搭乘的經驗跟次數在過去一個月裡面以樣本來說來講他並不是最多的很多人都是偶爾搭一下這狀況那再來從這個抽象你可以看到出來說\n111277\t122110\t第三題在問說這個有沒有搭過高鐵有的人是回到5到11題但是你在問13 14在問寧靜車廂措施的時候這些人包含了他沒有搭高鐵的人他也在回應這個問題\n123427\t140890\t就是說你看喔問你知不知道說9月22號我們有推出寧靜車廂然後有相關的有這些做法知道的人只有38.3%不知道的人有61.7%有人不知道這個政策那不知道這個政策的人他還在回應第14題那請問你支持不支持\n141892\t169918\t你就沒搭高鐵你就不是我們的TA你沒有在搭高鐵的經驗裡面然後你不知道這個政策你不知道這個政策之後你還可以回答說那你支不支持所以我想這個比例上在這個民調上面你們在做這個客戶分析的時候我想這個取樣我想是一定有一定程度的問題啦就如果今天你要做大家正常使用的不管是這個經濟商也好還是商務商也好我們高鐵是有APP的嘛\n170731\t172479\t今天你有IPP然後裡面有會員\n173632\t201362\t我們也是會員啊那至少你可以透過你的APP去抽樣去了解說到底真實經常在搭乘的這群人他到底對於寧靜車廂或對於高鐵的哪些滿意度或不滿意度他的想法是什麼而不是透過這種大型的抽樣民調因為你這個抽樣就像我提到的光是有搭過高鐵的人在你抽樣的民調裡面只佔了百分之四十四而已沒搭過的人有百分之五十五沒搭過的人又在回應你現在的政策那不是很弔詭的事情嗎董事長\n202662\t227091\t謝謝委員的關心 現在委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉事實上民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來事實上經過交叉分析你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在自由這個寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高那這個就是趨勢就是很清楚那我是說今天你既然要\n228680\t255112\t我們要針對說我們搭高鐵的人的這個狀況嘛那我就說你這個你這個抽樣分析裡面的你的交叉分析裡面包含了所謂我剛剛提到的你的九成裡面其中有55%的人他是沒有搭高鐵經驗的喔我的意思是這樣子對 可是我們如果只把有搭高鐵經驗的人獨立出來他超過 更超過九成因為你今天這個是針對你的客戶我們今天你到高鐵公司的客戶我們今天應該是針對說就像我剛剛提到了我們其實下次要做這樣的調查\n256232\t281222\t除了去廣泛地做抽樣之外其實我們自己是有APP的是有自己的是有會員系統的應該是針對我們封閉式就是說這個會員群體或這個經常搭高鐵這群人去瞭解他的需求我們也會建立起這樣子的一個調查的管道因為這個親子車廂的問題跟這個寧定車廂我覺得這個政策上並不是互斥的但是因為執行面上有這個狀況導致說很多人覺得說\n284704\t295579\t帶小孩搭高鐵會有這個影響他會覺得會有壓力然後又有乘客有相關的這些問題所以我們剛剛臨時地下談希望說那不然因為剛剛\n296832\t317566\t五民主委員提到了你現在的政策是變成高鐵變成全線叫做寧靜列車我們回到一個問題在董事長你在頒布寧靜車廂政策之前我們回想一下在沒有寧靜車廂政策之前如果身邊的人他看影片不用耳機或大聲喧鬧或吵鬧有沒有民眾會投訴\n318852\t334919\t會投訴嘛對不對會投訴但是我們沒有法源可以禁止他你現在也沒有法源我們是在這個我們是在我們的跟顧客之間的這個運輸契約當中明定了3C戴耳機以及講手機到選管已經明定出來了\n335839\t360635\t我就說那過去一樣他同樣是可以用勸導的方式嘛我就說就在你在正式頒布之前他一樣有勸導的方式可以去做這個事情過去是勸導但是他不遵守我們並沒有執行的法源那你們現在有真的執行的這個狀況是怎麼樣我們有執行的法源就是在我們的運送契約當中已經明定了3C帶耳機跟手機到玄關如果旅客不聽高鐵是可以拒載\n361676\t384332\t董事長其實我沒有反對這些事情我講說這個事情是可以的只是說全列包含說針對什麼3C戴耳機這個當然你們要把它放在企業裡面這沒問題那只是說像帶小孩或講話聊天等等在過去它基本上是用勸導的方式那多數的人都會尊重這個列車長的這個指揮嘛在我的經驗來講是這樣子嘛\n385172\t394304\t那就是說現在既然要推這樣的車廂要推這樣的要不要針對寧靜車廂的部分去定義明確一點它的寧靜比如說不是只有針對3C\n395854\t421899\t戴耳機等等他的就是真正的寧靜車廂因為上車尊重其他人不要帶不要把音量不要把這個什麼影片放出來要戴耳機然後不要戴那個這個理論上是一個大車的文化這不一定是法規這是文化問題但是你可能要把它我們本來想像說大家期待寧靜車廂是真正的就是說我一兩節可能商務車廂或是可能第六節或哪一節等等的他是真正的寧靜車廂包含大聲喧嘩\n424463\t447696\t講話聊天等等都要都要一定的去去比例去控制這個是我覺得高鐵公司包含說你在費用上去做些區隔我覺得消費是能夠接受的但是你做全列我覺得這是有一定程度的執行商會有問題啦好不好董事長好我想這個部分委員的意見我們會來思考好董事長謝謝董事長請回那我先請這個我們今天的主角本來是主角應安會我們林組委\n454156\t481341\t委員好主委我想最近有發生這個漢市就是長榮空服員這個請假的問題然後他當然這個不幸的往生等等那我們看到說IKEA的這個民間組織裡面有提到說其實疲勞跟過勞屬於制度性的風險那我們在這個目前運安會的這種資源報告的這種東西裡面當然資源報告的目的應該是為了預防跟提出可能潛在的風險來評估說哪些問題會造成這個非安的風險\n482930\t509107\tIKEA有提到說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險的那我想在現階段我們的育安會的資源報告系統裡面只有這個採購人士勞資關鍵增益等等算是可以登錄那過去這些年的基金來講我們目前這個資源報告上線6年了花了440萬那它的簡報的這個數字它的整體的數據也不多所以我要今天想說利用剛好有這個案例發生了過去大家也比較陌生就這種資源報告系統\n509887\t535618\t如果今天空服員也好或者是駕駛員也好或是不管是在天上飛的還是剛剛提到的台鐵高鐵或是公路運輸等等的這些員工他如果過勞或他覺得疲倦或覺得怎麼樣他在目前為止他是沒有在資源報告系統裡面對不對對那未來有沒有機會把它列入因為這個是我的建議啦你要把它列入嗎有沒有機會把它列入放進去所謂的資源報告系統裡面\n536804\t550685\t如果將來有一些案例從個案變成慢慢變成系統性或通案的時候會被列入這個這個目前的統計的這個這個樣本還沒到那個程度 都有可能性\n551365\t573295\t你說因為員工過勞導致的非安風險還沒有明確嗎如果在調查事件裡面在調查事件裡面如果被撈出來說這個是有可能的話就變成不見你說只有說這個有非安事故或什麼事故會變成會擴大出來所以現在還沒有到樣本數到哪裏去\n574074\t589527\t主委你看一下我為什麼特別要講這個是因為這個不是我講這個是國際平衡組織講的就是說他認為說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險那如果今天這個制度性風險沒有辦法在事前或在你們的數據裡面被揭露的話\n590834\t616989\t你們怎麼知道你們要怎麼知道有沒有人過勞或是你們要怎麼知道有沒有人我們可以在志願報告系統裡面這個加長宣導說這個請他們也可以提報這樣子的話選項要有啊好像選項是沒有的對不對就是沒有這個選項就是說大家過去當然認為說過勞啦或是說上班時數等等的是屬於勞動部的事情是屬於民鄉局的事情但是今天既然有這個志願報告系統你們是為了評估風險的\n619645\t648508\t是預防的今天不是說我通報了馬上就要懲處或怎麼樣不是你們的工作不是這個你們工作應該是為了風險的評估嘛今天如果有人過勞有人時數不對要開罰那個是勞動部的事但今天我們運安會我們要處理的是整體的風險風險狀況那如果今天這個風險狀況能夠提前掌握或是你們很明確知道說國內的不是國內就以航空業為例嘛哪家航空公司在哪個航班有特別多人\n650199\t679719\t他會來填這個志願報告說我們這個時數有點問題那是不是你們就能夠提早的知道某些航班可能他的排班有問題他的駕駛可能問題他的人數可能問題提前的預防嘛不要說真的事情發生了然後我們再回過來說來檢討什麼法律面等等的要修法等等的這個在你們行政作為上應該就能夠去提前預防啦對作為未來可以放進去嗎事實上本身上志願報告是沒有限制本來他就可以提報\n680539\t697788\t那下來我們可以我們新島的時候可以我們跟業界或者是跟民航局或跟他們開會的時候講說這個應該以後會被拉進來所以主委未來這些不管是空服員也好駕駛員也好是我們這個台鐵高鐵公路運輸等等的人認為自己好主委謝謝我就是要這個答案好謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝主席 我們先請高鐵石董事長\n委員好董事長好我想一開始也是一樣針對我們高鐵年輕車廂的部分跟舊教育董事長我想今天很多委員都提到當初推動這個年輕車廂當然是利益良善但是我想上路之後很多的家長很多的民眾都在反映可能帶小孩有壓力或者是旅客之間對年輕車廂的定義或對年輕車廂的認知不同所以導致很多的不同的衝突包含很多的網路上的自己的經驗也好或是我個人帶小孩的經驗也好都有相關的狀況發生了\n所以當然董事長現在講說這個部分會做調整當然就是說千錯萬錯都是高鐵的錯這個部分我也知道這個事情但是我想我們看到說高鐵在這個事情上面才提到說針對寧定車廂的爭議你們都說民調九成支持這樣的做法但是我去討 要有一下資料我們這個做分析看一下\n民調你的題目裡面當初在問說一年內有沒有搭乘過高鐵的部分在民調的抽樣裡面只有44%的人有搭過高鐵那你抽樣的對象55.7%的人他沒有搭過高鐵那即便有搭過高鐵在第五題裡面問到說這過去\n一年裡面平均一個月搭乘高鐵次數的比例多少少於一次的又高達55.6%那一到五次的是38.2%換句話說多數的民眾他的高鐵搭乘的經驗跟次數在過去一個月裡面以樣本來說來講他並不是最多的很多人都是偶爾搭一下這狀況那再來從這個抽象你可以看到出來說\n第三題在問說這個有沒有搭過高鐵有的人是回到5到11題但是你在問13 14在問寧靜車廂措施的時候這些人包含了他沒有搭高鐵的人他也在回應這個問題\n就是說你看喔問你知不知道說9月22號我們有推出寧靜車廂然後有相關的有這些做法知道的人只有38.3%不知道的人有61.7%有人不知道這個政策那不知道這個政策的人他還在回應第14題那請問你支持不支持\n你就沒搭高鐵你就不是我們的TA你沒有在搭高鐵的經驗裡面然後你不知道這個政策你不知道這個政策之後你還可以回答說那你支不支持所以我想這個比例上在這個民調上面你們在做這個客戶分析的時候我想這個取樣我想是一定有一定程度的問題啦就如果今天你要做大家正常使用的不管是這個經濟商也好還是商務商也好我們高鐵是有APP的嘛\n今天你有IPP然後裡面有會員\n我們也是會員啊那至少你可以透過你的APP去抽樣去了解說到底真實經常在搭乘的這群人他到底對於寧靜車廂或對於高鐵的哪些滿意度或不滿意度他的想法是什麼而不是透過這種大型的抽樣民調因為你這個抽樣就像我提到的光是有搭過高鐵的人在你抽樣的民調裡面只佔了百分之四十四而已沒搭過的人有百分之五十五沒搭過的人又在回應你現在的政策那不是很弔詭的事情嗎董事長\n謝謝委員的關心 現在委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉事實上民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來事實上經過交叉分析你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在自由這個寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高那這個就是趨勢就是很清楚那我是說今天你既然要\n我們要針對說我們搭高鐵的人的這個狀況嘛那我就說你這個你這個抽樣分析裡面的你的交叉分析裡面包含了所謂我剛剛提到的你的九成裡面其中有55%的人他是沒有搭高鐵經驗的喔我的意思是這樣子對 可是我們如果只把有搭高鐵經驗的人獨立出來他超過 更超過九成因為你今天這個是針對你的客戶我們今天你到高鐵公司的客戶我們今天應該是針對說就像我剛剛提到了我們其實下次要做這樣的調查\n除了去廣泛地做抽樣之外其實我們自己是有APP的是有自己的是有會員系統的應該是針對我們封閉式就是說這個會員群體或這個經常搭高鐵這群人去瞭解他的需求我們也會建立起這樣子的一個調查的管道因為這個親子車廂的問題跟這個寧定車廂我覺得這個政策上並不是互斥的但是因為執行面上有這個狀況導致說很多人覺得說\n帶小孩搭高鐵會有這個影響他會覺得會有壓力然後又有乘客有相關的這些問題所以我們剛剛臨時地下談希望說那不然因為剛剛\n五民主委員提到了你現在的政策是變成高鐵變成全線叫做寧靜列車我們回到一個問題在董事長你在頒布寧靜車廂政策之前我們回想一下在沒有寧靜車廂政策之前如果身邊的人他看影片不用耳機或大聲喧鬧或吵鬧有沒有民眾會投訴\n會投訴嘛對不對會投訴但是我們沒有法源可以禁止他你現在也沒有法源我們是在這個我們是在我們的跟顧客之間的這個運輸契約當中明定了3C戴耳機以及講手機到選管已經明定出來了\n我就說那過去一樣他同樣是可以用勸導的方式嘛我就說就在你在正式頒布之前他一樣有勸導的方式可以去做這個事情過去是勸導但是他不遵守我們並沒有執行的法源那你們現在有真的執行的這個狀況是怎麼樣我們有執行的法源就是在我們的運送契約當中已經明定了3C帶耳機跟手機到玄關如果旅客不聽高鐵是可以拒載\n董事長其實我沒有反對這些事情我講說這個事情是可以的只是說全列包含說針對什麼3C戴耳機這個當然你們要把它放在企業裡面這沒問題那只是說像帶小孩或講話聊天等等在過去它基本上是用勸導的方式那多數的人都會尊重這個列車長的這個指揮嘛在我的經驗來講是這樣子嘛\n那就是說現在既然要推這樣的車廂要推這樣的要不要針對寧靜車廂的部分去定義明確一點它的寧靜比如說不是只有針對3C\n戴耳機等等他的就是真正的寧靜車廂因為上車尊重其他人不要帶不要把音量不要把這個什麼影片放出來要戴耳機然後不要戴那個這個理論上是一個大車的文化這不一定是法規這是文化問題但是你可能要把它我們本來想像說大家期待寧靜車廂是真正的就是說我一兩節可能商務車廂或是可能第六節或哪一節等等的他是真正的寧靜車廂包含大聲喧嘩\n講話聊天等等都要都要一定的去去比例去控制這個是我覺得高鐵公司包含說你在費用上去做些區隔我覺得消費是能夠接受的但是你做全列我覺得這是有一定程度的執行商會有問題啦好不好董事長好我想這個部分委員的意見我們會來思考好董事長謝謝董事長請回那我先請這個我們今天的主角本來是主角應安會我們林組委\n委員好主委我想最近有發生這個漢市就是長榮空服員這個請假的問題然後他當然這個不幸的往生等等那我們看到說IKEA的這個民間組織裡面有提到說其實疲勞跟過勞屬於制度性的風險那我們在這個目前運安會的這種資源報告的這種東西裡面當然資源報告的目的應該是為了預防跟提出可能潛在的風險來評估說哪些問題會造成這個非安的風險\nIKEA有提到說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險的那我想在現階段我們的育安會的資源報告系統裡面只有這個採購人士勞資關鍵增益等等算是可以登錄那過去這些年的基金來講我們目前這個資源報告上線6年了花了440萬那它的簡報的這個數字它的整體的數據也不多所以我要今天想說利用剛好有這個案例發生了過去大家也比較陌生就這種資源報告系統\n如果今天空服員也好或者是駕駛員也好或是不管是在天上飛的還是剛剛提到的台鐵高鐵或是公路運輸等等的這些員工他如果過勞或他覺得疲倦或覺得怎麼樣他在目前為止他是沒有在資源報告系統裡面對不對對那未來有沒有機會把它列入因為這個是我的建議啦你要把它列入嗎有沒有機會把它列入放進去所謂的資源報告系統裡面\n如果將來有一些案例從個案變成慢慢變成系統性或通案的時候會被列入這個這個目前的統計的這個這個樣本還沒到那個程度 都有可能性\n你說因為員工過勞導致的非安風險還沒有明確嗎如果在調查事件裡面在調查事件裡面如果被撈出來說這個是有可能的話就變成不見你說只有說這個有非安事故或什麼事故會變成會擴大出來所以現在還沒有到樣本數到哪裏去\n主委你看一下我為什麼特別要講這個是因為這個不是我講這個是國際平衡組織講的就是說他認為說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險那如果今天這個制度性風險沒有辦法在事前或在你們的數據裡面被揭露的話\n你們怎麼知道你們要怎麼知道有沒有人過勞或是你們要怎麼知道有沒有人我們可以在志願報告系統裡面這個加長宣導說這個請他們也可以提報這樣子的話選項要有啊好像選項是沒有的對不對就是沒有這個選項就是說大家過去當然認為說過勞啦或是說上班時數等等的是屬於勞動部的事情是屬於民鄉局的事情但是今天既然有這個志願報告系統你們是為了評估風險的\n是預防的今天不是說我通報了馬上就要懲處或怎麼樣不是你們的工作不是這個你們工作應該是為了風險的評估嘛今天如果有人過勞有人時數不對要開罰那個是勞動部的事但今天我們運安會我們要處理的是整體的風險風險狀況那如果今天這個風險狀況能夠提前掌握或是你們很明確知道說國內的不是國內就以航空業為例嘛哪家航空公司在哪個航班有特別多人\n他會來填這個志願報告說我們這個時數有點問題那是不是你們就能夠提早的知道某些航班可能他的排班有問題他的駕駛可能問題他的人數可能問題提前的預防嘛不要說真的事情發生了然後我們再回過來說來檢討什麼法律面等等的要修法等等的這個在你們行政作為上應該就能夠去提前預防啦對作為未來可以放進去嗎事實上本身上志願報告是沒有限制本來他就可以提報\n那下來我們可以我們新島的時候可以我們跟業界或者是跟民航局或跟他們開會的時候講說這個應該以後會被拉進來所以主委未來這些不管是空服員也好駕駛員也好是我們這個台鐵高鐵公路運輸等等的人認為自己好主委謝謝我就是要這個答案好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.192 --> 00:03.483\n好謝主席我們先請高鐵石董事長\n\n00:11.755 --> 00:39.770\n委員好董事長好我想一開始也是一樣針對我們高鐵年輕車廂的部分跟舊教育董事長我想今天很多委員都提到當初推動這個年輕車廂當然是利益良善但是我想上路之後很多的家長很多的民眾都在反映可能帶小孩有壓力或者是旅客之間對年輕車廂的定義或對年輕車廂的認知不同所以導致很多的不同的衝突包含很多的網路上的自己的經驗也好或是我個人帶小孩的經驗也好都有相關的狀況發生了\n\n00:41.431 --> 01:03.717\n所以當然董事長現在講說這個部分會做調整當然就是說千錯萬錯都是高鐵的錯這個部分我也知道這個事情但是我想我們看到說高鐵在這個事情上面才提到說針對寧定車廂的爭議你們都說民調九成支持這樣的做法但是我去討要有一下資料我們這個做分析看一下\n\n01:04.810 --> 01:22.861\n民調你的題目裡面當初在問說一年內有沒有搭乘過高鐵的部分在民調的抽樣裡面只有44%的人有搭過高鐵那你抽樣的對象55.7%的人他沒有搭過高鐵那即便有搭過高鐵在第五題裡面問到說這過去\n\n01:24.741 --> 01:49.286\n一年裡面平均一個月搭乘高鐵次數的比例多少少於一次的又高達55.6%那一到五次的是38.2%換句話說多數的民眾他的高鐵搭乘的經驗跟次數在過去一個月裡面以樣本來說來講他並不是最多的很多人都是偶爾搭一下這狀況那再來從這個抽象你可以看到出來說\n\n01:51.277 --> 02:02.110\n第三題在問說這個有沒有搭過高鐵有的人是回到5到11題但是你在問1314在問寧靜車廂措施的時候這些人包含了他沒有搭高鐵的人他也在回應這個問題\n\n02:03.427 --> 02:20.890\n就是說你看喔問你知不知道說9月22號我們有推出寧靜車廂然後有相關的有這些做法知道的人只有38.3%不知道的人有61.7%有人不知道這個政策那不知道這個政策的人他還在回應第14題那請問你支持不支持\n\n02:21.892 --> 02:49.918\n你就沒搭高鐵你就不是我們的TA你沒有在搭高鐵的經驗裡面然後你不知道這個政策你不知道這個政策之後你還可以回答說那你支不支持所以我想這個比例上在這個民調上面你們在做這個客戶分析的時候我想這個取樣我想是一定有一定程度的問題啦就如果今天你要做大家正常使用的不管是這個經濟商也好還是商務商也好我們高鐵是有APP的嘛\n\n02:50.731 --> 02:52.479\n今天你有IPP然後裡面有會員\n\n02:53.632 --> 03:21.362\n我們也是會員啊那至少你可以透過你的APP去抽樣去了解說到底真實經常在搭乘的這群人他到底對於寧靜車廂或對於高鐵的哪些滿意度或不滿意度他的想法是什麼而不是透過這種大型的抽樣民調因為你這個抽樣就像我提到的光是有搭過高鐵的人在你抽樣的民調裡面只佔了百分之四十四而已沒搭過的人有百分之五十五沒搭過的人又在回應你現在的政策那不是很弔詭的事情嗎董事長\n\n03:22.662 --> 03:47.091\n謝謝委員的關心現在委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉事實上民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來事實上經過交叉分析你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在自由這個寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高那這個就是趨勢就是很清楚那我是說今天你既然要\n\n03:48.680 --> 04:15.112\n我們要針對說我們搭高鐵的人的這個狀況嘛那我就說你這個你這個抽樣分析裡面的你的交叉分析裡面包含了所謂我剛剛提到的你的九成裡面其中有55%的人他是沒有搭高鐵經驗的喔我的意思是這樣子對可是我們如果只把有搭高鐵經驗的人獨立出來他超過更超過九成因為你今天這個是針對你的客戶我們今天你到高鐵公司的客戶我們今天應該是針對說就像我剛剛提到了我們其實下次要做這樣的調查\n\n04:16.232 --> 04:41.222\n除了去廣泛地做抽樣之外其實我們自己是有APP的是有自己的是有會員系統的應該是針對我們封閉式就是說這個會員群體或這個經常搭高鐵這群人去瞭解他的需求我們也會建立起這樣子的一個調查的管道因為這個親子車廂的問題跟這個寧定車廂我覺得這個政策上並不是互斥的但是因為執行面上有這個狀況導致說很多人覺得說\n\n04:44.704 --> 04:55.579\n帶小孩搭高鐵會有這個影響他會覺得會有壓力然後又有乘客有相關的這些問題所以我們剛剛臨時地下談希望說那不然因為剛剛\n\n04:56.832 --> 05:17.566\n五民主委員提到了你現在的政策是變成高鐵變成全線叫做寧靜列車我們回到一個問題在董事長你在頒布寧靜車廂政策之前我們回想一下在沒有寧靜車廂政策之前如果身邊的人他看影片不用耳機或大聲喧鬧或吵鬧有沒有民眾會投訴\n\n05:18.852 --> 05:34.919\n會投訴嘛對不對會投訴但是我們沒有法源可以禁止他你現在也沒有法源我們是在這個我們是在我們的跟顧客之間的這個運輸契約當中明定了3C戴耳機以及講手機到選管已經明定出來了\n\n05:35.839 --> 06:00.635\n我就說那過去一樣他同樣是可以用勸導的方式嘛我就說就在你在正式頒布之前他一樣有勸導的方式可以去做這個事情過去是勸導但是他不遵守我們並沒有執行的法源那你們現在有真的執行的這個狀況是怎麼樣我們有執行的法源就是在我們的運送契約當中已經明定了3C帶耳機跟手機到玄關如果旅客不聽高鐵是可以拒載\n\n06:01.676 --> 06:24.332\n董事長其實我沒有反對這些事情我講說這個事情是可以的只是說全列包含說針對什麼3C戴耳機這個當然你們要把它放在企業裡面這沒問題那只是說像帶小孩或講話聊天等等在過去它基本上是用勸導的方式那多數的人都會尊重這個列車長的這個指揮嘛在我的經驗來講是這樣子嘛\n\n06:25.172 --> 06:34.304\n那就是說現在既然要推這樣的車廂要推這樣的要不要針對寧靜車廂的部分去定義明確一點它的寧靜比如說不是只有針對3C\n\n06:35.854 --> 07:01.899\n戴耳機等等他的就是真正的寧靜車廂因為上車尊重其他人不要帶不要把音量不要把這個什麼影片放出來要戴耳機然後不要戴那個這個理論上是一個大車的文化這不一定是法規這是文化問題但是你可能要把它我們本來想像說大家期待寧靜車廂是真正的就是說我一兩節可能商務車廂或是可能第六節或哪一節等等的他是真正的寧靜車廂包含大聲喧嘩\n\n07:04.463 --> 07:27.696\n講話聊天等等都要都要一定的去去比例去控制這個是我覺得高鐵公司包含說你在費用上去做些區隔我覺得消費是能夠接受的但是你做全列我覺得這是有一定程度的執行商會有問題啦好不好董事長好我想這個部分委員的意見我們會來思考好董事長謝謝董事長請回那我先請這個我們今天的主角本來是主角應安會我們林組委\n\n07:34.156 --> 08:01.341\n委員好主委我想最近有發生這個漢市就是長榮空服員這個請假的問題然後他當然這個不幸的往生等等那我們看到說IKEA的這個民間組織裡面有提到說其實疲勞跟過勞屬於制度性的風險那我們在這個目前運安會的這種資源報告的這種東西裡面當然資源報告的目的應該是為了預防跟提出可能潛在的風險來評估說哪些問題會造成這個非安的風險\n\n08:02.930 --> 08:29.107\nIKEA有提到說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險的那我想在現階段我們的育安會的資源報告系統裡面只有這個採購人士勞資關鍵增益等等算是可以登錄那過去這些年的基金來講我們目前這個資源報告上線6年了花了440萬那它的簡報的這個數字它的整體的數據也不多所以我要今天想說利用剛好有這個案例發生了過去大家也比較陌生就這種資源報告系統\n\n08:29.887 --> 08:55.618\n如果今天空服員也好或者是駕駛員也好或是不管是在天上飛的還是剛剛提到的台鐵高鐵或是公路運輸等等的這些員工他如果過勞或他覺得疲倦或覺得怎麼樣他在目前為止他是沒有在資源報告系統裡面對不對對那未來有沒有機會把它列入因為這個是我的建議啦你要把它列入嗎有沒有機會把它列入放進去所謂的資源報告系統裡面\n\n08:56.804 --> 09:10.685\n如果將來有一些案例從個案變成慢慢變成系統性或通案的時候會被列入這個這個目前的統計的這個這個樣本還沒到那個程度都有可能性\n\n09:11.365 --> 09:33.295\n你說因為員工過勞導致的非安風險還沒有明確嗎如果在調查事件裡面在調查事件裡面如果被撈出來說這個是有可能的話就變成不見你說只有說這個有非安事故或什麼事故會變成會擴大出來所以現在還沒有到樣本數到哪裏去\n\n09:34.074 --> 09:49.527\n主委你看一下我為什麼特別要講這個是因為這個不是我講這個是國際平衡組織講的就是說他認為說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險那如果今天這個制度性風險沒有辦法在事前或在你們的數據裡面被揭露的話\n\n09:50.834 --> 10:16.989\n你們怎麼知道你們要怎麼知道有沒有人過勞或是你們要怎麼知道有沒有人我們可以在志願報告系統裡面這個加長宣導說這個請他們也可以提報這樣子的話選項要有啊好像選項是沒有的對不對就是沒有這個選項就是說大家過去當然認為說過勞啦或是說上班時數等等的是屬於勞動部的事情是屬於民鄉局的事情但是今天既然有這個志願報告系統你們是為了評估風險的\n\n10:19.645 --> 10:48.508\n是預防的今天不是說我通報了馬上就要懲處或怎麼樣不是你們的工作不是這個你們工作應該是為了風險的評估嘛今天如果有人過勞有人時數不對要開罰那個是勞動部的事但今天我們運安會我們要處理的是整體的風險風險狀況那如果今天這個風險狀況能夠提前掌握或是你們很明確知道說國內的不是國內就以航空業為例嘛哪家航空公司在哪個航班有特別多人\n\n10:50.199 --> 11:19.719\n他會來填這個志願報告說我們這個時數有點問題那是不是你們就能夠提早的知道某些航班可能他的排班有問題他的駕駛可能問題他的人數可能問題提前的預防嘛不要說真的事情發生了然後我們再回過來說來檢討什麼法律面等等的要修法等等的這個在你們行政作為上應該就能夠去提前預防啦對作為未來可以放進去嗎事實上本身上志願報告是沒有限制本來他就可以提報\n\n11:20.539 --> 11:37.788\n那下來我們可以我們新島的時候可以我們跟業界或者是跟民航局或跟他們開會的時候講說這個應該以後會被拉進來所以主委未來這些不管是空服員也好駕駛員也好是我們這個台鐵高鐵公路運輸等等的人認為自己好主委謝謝我就是要這個答案好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.192,"end":3.483,"text":"好 謝主席 我們先請高鐵石董事長"},{"start":11.755,"end":39.77,"text":"委員好董事長好我想一開始也是一樣針對我們高鐵年輕車廂的部分跟舊教育董事長我想今天很多委員都提到當初推動這個年輕車廂當然是利益良善但是我想上路之後很多的家長很多的民眾都在反映可能帶小孩有壓力或者是旅客之間對年輕車廂的定義或對年輕車廂的認知不同所以導致很多的不同的衝突包含很多的網路上的自己的經驗也好或是我個人帶小孩的經驗也好都有相關的狀況發生了"},{"start":41.431,"end":63.717,"text":"所以當然董事長現在講說這個部分會做調整當然就是說千錯萬錯都是高鐵的錯這個部分我也知道這個事情但是我想我們看到說高鐵在這個事情上面才提到說針對寧定車廂的爭議你們都說民調九成支持這樣的做法但是我去討 要有一下資料我們這個做分析看一下"},{"start":64.81,"end":82.861,"text":"民調你的題目裡面當初在問說一年內有沒有搭乘過高鐵的部分在民調的抽樣裡面只有44%的人有搭過高鐵那你抽樣的對象55.7%的人他沒有搭過高鐵那即便有搭過高鐵在第五題裡面問到說這過去"},{"start":84.741,"end":109.286,"text":"一年裡面平均一個月搭乘高鐵次數的比例多少少於一次的又高達55.6%那一到五次的是38.2%換句話說多數的民眾他的高鐵搭乘的經驗跟次數在過去一個月裡面以樣本來說來講他並不是最多的很多人都是偶爾搭一下這狀況那再來從這個抽象你可以看到出來說"},{"start":111.277,"end":122.11,"text":"第三題在問說這個有沒有搭過高鐵有的人是回到5到11題但是你在問13 14在問寧靜車廂措施的時候這些人包含了他沒有搭高鐵的人他也在回應這個問題"},{"start":123.427,"end":140.89,"text":"就是說你看喔問你知不知道說9月22號我們有推出寧靜車廂然後有相關的有這些做法知道的人只有38.3%不知道的人有61.7%有人不知道這個政策那不知道這個政策的人他還在回應第14題那請問你支持不支持"},{"start":141.892,"end":169.918,"text":"你就沒搭高鐵你就不是我們的TA你沒有在搭高鐵的經驗裡面然後你不知道這個政策你不知道這個政策之後你還可以回答說那你支不支持所以我想這個比例上在這個民調上面你們在做這個客戶分析的時候我想這個取樣我想是一定有一定程度的問題啦就如果今天你要做大家正常使用的不管是這個經濟商也好還是商務商也好我們高鐵是有APP的嘛"},{"start":170.731,"end":172.479,"text":"今天你有IPP然後裡面有會員"},{"start":173.632,"end":201.362,"text":"我們也是會員啊那至少你可以透過你的APP去抽樣去了解說到底真實經常在搭乘的這群人他到底對於寧靜車廂或對於高鐵的哪些滿意度或不滿意度他的想法是什麼而不是透過這種大型的抽樣民調因為你這個抽樣就像我提到的光是有搭過高鐵的人在你抽樣的民調裡面只佔了百分之四十四而已沒搭過的人有百分之五十五沒搭過的人又在回應你現在的政策那不是很弔詭的事情嗎董事長"},{"start":202.662,"end":227.091,"text":"謝謝委員的關心 現在委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉事實上民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來事實上經過交叉分析你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在自由這個寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高那這個就是趨勢就是很清楚那我是說今天你既然要"},{"start":228.68,"end":255.112,"text":"我們要針對說我們搭高鐵的人的這個狀況嘛那我就說你這個你這個抽樣分析裡面的你的交叉分析裡面包含了所謂我剛剛提到的你的九成裡面其中有55%的人他是沒有搭高鐵經驗的喔我的意思是這樣子對 可是我們如果只把有搭高鐵經驗的人獨立出來他超過 更超過九成因為你今天這個是針對你的客戶我們今天你到高鐵公司的客戶我們今天應該是針對說就像我剛剛提到了我們其實下次要做這樣的調查"},{"start":256.232,"end":281.222,"text":"除了去廣泛地做抽樣之外其實我們自己是有APP的是有自己的是有會員系統的應該是針對我們封閉式就是說這個會員群體或這個經常搭高鐵這群人去瞭解他的需求我們也會建立起這樣子的一個調查的管道因為這個親子車廂的問題跟這個寧定車廂我覺得這個政策上並不是互斥的但是因為執行面上有這個狀況導致說很多人覺得說"},{"start":284.704,"end":295.579,"text":"帶小孩搭高鐵會有這個影響他會覺得會有壓力然後又有乘客有相關的這些問題所以我們剛剛臨時地下談希望說那不然因為剛剛"},{"start":296.832,"end":317.566,"text":"五民主委員提到了你現在的政策是變成高鐵變成全線叫做寧靜列車我們回到一個問題在董事長你在頒布寧靜車廂政策之前我們回想一下在沒有寧靜車廂政策之前如果身邊的人他看影片不用耳機或大聲喧鬧或吵鬧有沒有民眾會投訴"},{"start":318.852,"end":334.919,"text":"會投訴嘛對不對會投訴但是我們沒有法源可以禁止他你現在也沒有法源我們是在這個我們是在我們的跟顧客之間的這個運輸契約當中明定了3C戴耳機以及講手機到選管已經明定出來了"},{"start":335.839,"end":360.635,"text":"我就說那過去一樣他同樣是可以用勸導的方式嘛我就說就在你在正式頒布之前他一樣有勸導的方式可以去做這個事情過去是勸導但是他不遵守我們並沒有執行的法源那你們現在有真的執行的這個狀況是怎麼樣我們有執行的法源就是在我們的運送契約當中已經明定了3C帶耳機跟手機到玄關如果旅客不聽高鐵是可以拒載"},{"start":361.676,"end":384.332,"text":"董事長其實我沒有反對這些事情我講說這個事情是可以的只是說全列包含說針對什麼3C戴耳機這個當然你們要把它放在企業裡面這沒問題那只是說像帶小孩或講話聊天等等在過去它基本上是用勸導的方式那多數的人都會尊重這個列車長的這個指揮嘛在我的經驗來講是這樣子嘛"},{"start":385.172,"end":394.304,"text":"那就是說現在既然要推這樣的車廂要推這樣的要不要針對寧靜車廂的部分去定義明確一點它的寧靜比如說不是只有針對3C"},{"start":395.854,"end":421.899,"text":"戴耳機等等他的就是真正的寧靜車廂因為上車尊重其他人不要帶不要把音量不要把這個什麼影片放出來要戴耳機然後不要戴那個這個理論上是一個大車的文化這不一定是法規這是文化問題但是你可能要把它我們本來想像說大家期待寧靜車廂是真正的就是說我一兩節可能商務車廂或是可能第六節或哪一節等等的他是真正的寧靜車廂包含大聲喧嘩"},{"start":424.463,"end":447.696,"text":"講話聊天等等都要都要一定的去去比例去控制這個是我覺得高鐵公司包含說你在費用上去做些區隔我覺得消費是能夠接受的但是你做全列我覺得這是有一定程度的執行商會有問題啦好不好董事長好我想這個部分委員的意見我們會來思考好董事長謝謝董事長請回那我先請這個我們今天的主角本來是主角應安會我們林組委"},{"start":454.156,"end":481.341,"text":"委員好主委我想最近有發生這個漢市就是長榮空服員這個請假的問題然後他當然這個不幸的往生等等那我們看到說IKEA的這個民間組織裡面有提到說其實疲勞跟過勞屬於制度性的風險那我們在這個目前運安會的這種資源報告的這種東西裡面當然資源報告的目的應該是為了預防跟提出可能潛在的風險來評估說哪些問題會造成這個非安的風險"},{"start":482.93,"end":509.107,"text":"IKEA有提到說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險的那我想在現階段我們的育安會的資源報告系統裡面只有這個採購人士勞資關鍵增益等等算是可以登錄那過去這些年的基金來講我們目前這個資源報告上線6年了花了440萬那它的簡報的這個數字它的整體的數據也不多所以我要今天想說利用剛好有這個案例發生了過去大家也比較陌生就這種資源報告系統"},{"start":509.887,"end":535.618,"text":"如果今天空服員也好或者是駕駛員也好或是不管是在天上飛的還是剛剛提到的台鐵高鐵或是公路運輸等等的這些員工他如果過勞或他覺得疲倦或覺得怎麼樣他在目前為止他是沒有在資源報告系統裡面對不對對那未來有沒有機會把它列入因為這個是我的建議啦你要把它列入嗎有沒有機會把它列入放進去所謂的資源報告系統裡面"},{"start":536.804,"end":550.685,"text":"如果將來有一些案例從個案變成慢慢變成系統性或通案的時候會被列入這個這個目前的統計的這個這個樣本還沒到那個程度 都有可能性"},{"start":551.365,"end":573.295,"text":"你說因為員工過勞導致的非安風險還沒有明確嗎如果在調查事件裡面在調查事件裡面如果被撈出來說這個是有可能的話就變成不見你說只有說這個有非安事故或什麼事故會變成會擴大出來所以現在還沒有到樣本數到哪裏去"},{"start":574.074,"end":589.527,"text":"主委你看一下我為什麼特別要講這個是因為這個不是我講這個是國際平衡組織講的就是說他認為說這個疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險那如果今天這個制度性風險沒有辦法在事前或在你們的數據裡面被揭露的話"},{"start":590.834,"end":616.989,"text":"你們怎麼知道你們要怎麼知道有沒有人過勞或是你們要怎麼知道有沒有人我們可以在志願報告系統裡面這個加長宣導說這個請他們也可以提報這樣子的話選項要有啊好像選項是沒有的對不對就是沒有這個選項就是說大家過去當然認為說過勞啦或是說上班時數等等的是屬於勞動部的事情是屬於民鄉局的事情但是今天既然有這個志願報告系統你們是為了評估風險的"},{"start":619.645,"end":648.508,"text":"是預防的今天不是說我通報了馬上就要懲處或怎麼樣不是你們的工作不是這個你們工作應該是為了風險的評估嘛今天如果有人過勞有人時數不對要開罰那個是勞動部的事但今天我們運安會我們要處理的是整體的風險風險狀況那如果今天這個風險狀況能夠提前掌握或是你們很明確知道說國內的不是國內就以航空業為例嘛哪家航空公司在哪個航班有特別多人"},{"start":650.199,"end":679.719,"text":"他會來填這個志願報告說我們這個時數有點問題那是不是你們就能夠提早的知道某些航班可能他的排班有問題他的駕駛可能問題他的人數可能問題提前的預防嘛不要說真的事情發生了然後我們再回過來說來檢討什麼法律面等等的要修法等等的這個在你們行政作為上應該就能夠去提前預防啦對作為未來可以放進去嗎事實上本身上志願報告是沒有限制本來他就可以提報"},{"start":680.539,"end":697.788,"text":"那下來我們可以我們新島的時候可以我們跟業界或者是跟民航局或跟他們開會的時候講說這個應該以後會被拉進來所以主委未來這些不管是空服員也好駕駛員也好是我們這個台鐵高鐵公路運輸等等的人認為自己好主委謝謝我就是要這個答案好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時15分）謝謝主席，先請高鐵史董事長。"],["主席：請史董事長。"],["史董事長哲：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長好。我想一開始還是一樣針對高鐵寧靜車廂的部分就教董事長。我想今天很多委員都提到，當初推動這個寧靜車廂，當然是立意良善啦！但是我想上路之後，很多的家長、很多的民眾都來反映，可能帶小孩有壓力，或者是旅客之間對寧靜車廂的定義，或對寧靜車廂的認知不同，所以導致很多不同的衝突。包含很多的網路上網友自己的經驗也好，或是我個人帶小孩的經驗也好，都會有相關的狀況發生。所以董事長現在講會針對這個部分做調整，當然就是說「千錯萬錯都是高鐵的錯啦！」我也知道這件事情。","我們看到高鐵在這件事情上提到，針對寧靜車廂的爭議，你們都說民調有九成民眾支持這樣的作法。但是我去調了一下資料，我們做了分析，看一下你的民調題目裡，當初問一年內有沒有搭乘過高鐵的部分，在民調的抽樣裡面只有44%的人有搭過高鐵，但你抽樣對象裡有55.7%的人沒有搭過高鐵。即便有搭過高鐵，在第5題裡面問到，在過去一年裡面平均一個月搭乘高鐵次數的比例多少？少於一次的高達55.6%，一到五次的是38.2%。換句話說，多數民眾搭乘高鐵的經驗跟次數在過去一個月裡，以這樣本數來講，他並不是最多的，很多人都是偶爾搭一下。","再來，從這抽樣資料裡可以看的出來，第3題問：「有沒有搭過高鐵？」答「有」的人要回到5到11題，但是你在13、14題在問寧靜車廂措施的時候，這些人包含了沒有搭高鐵的人也在回應這個問題。你看喔！問你「知不知道說9月22日，我們推出鄰近車廂，有相關的這些作法」知道的人只有38.3%，不知道的人有61.7%，有人不知道這個政策，不知道這個政策的人還在回應第14題「請問你支不支持？」你就沒搭過高鐵，你就不是我們的TA，你沒有在搭高鐵的經驗裡，你不知道這個政策，你不知道這個政策之後，你還可以回答說你支不支持，所以我想在這比例及民調上，你們在做客戶分析的時候，取樣是有一定程度的問題啦！如果今天你要搭正常使用的，不管是經濟艙也好，還是商務艙也好，我們高鐵是有app的嘛！今天你有app，也有會員，我們也是會員啊！至少你可以透過你的app去抽樣、去了解到底真實、經常在搭乘的這群人，到底對於寧靜車廂或對高鐵的滿意度或不滿意度，他們的想法是什麼。","而不是透過這種大型的抽樣民調，因為你這抽樣就像我剛提到的光是有搭過高鐵的人，在你抽樣的民調裡只占了44%而已，沒搭過的人有55%，沒搭過的人又在回應你現在的政策，不是很弔詭的事情嗎？請教董事長。"],["史董事長哲：謝謝委員的關心。我想委員一定對於民調的交叉分析很熟悉，事實上，民調在技術上是可以把交叉分析做出來。經過交叉分析，你會發現有搭過高鐵的人在寧靜車廂的支持度是比沒有搭過高鐵的人還高啊！所以趨勢上是越常搭高鐵的人，對寧靜車廂的支持度反而是越高，這個趨勢就是很清楚。"],["黃委員健豪：今天你既然要針對我們搭高鐵這些人的這個狀況嘛！你的交叉分析裡包含了我剛剛提到的你九成裡面，其中有55%的人是沒有搭高鐵經驗的，我意思是這樣。"],["史董事長哲：對，可是我們如果只把有搭高鐵經驗的人獨立出來，更超過九成……"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，因為你今天這個是針對你搭高鐵公司的客戶，我們今天應該針對就像我剛剛提到的，你們下次要做這樣的調查，除了去廣泛的做抽樣之外，其實你們自己是有app的，是有自己的會員系統的。"],["史董事長哲：是。"],["黃委員健豪：你應該是針對封閉式……就是這會員群體，或經常搭高鐵這群人去了解他們的需求，應該是要朝這個方向。"],["史董事長哲：會。我們也會建立起這樣的調查管道。"],["黃委員健豪：因為親子車廂跟寧靜車廂的問題，我覺得這個政策上並不是互斥的嘛！"],["史董事長哲：是。"],["黃委員健豪：但是因為執行面上有這個狀況，導致很多人覺得帶小孩搭高鐵會有這些影響。他覺得會有壓力，然後又有乘客有相關的這些問題，所以我們剛剛的臨時提案才會希望，因為委員也有提到，你現在的政策變成高鐵全線叫做寧靜列車。我們回到一個問題，在董事長頒布寧靜車廂政策之前，我們回想一下，在沒有寧靜車廂政策之前，如果身邊的人看影片不用耳機，或大聲喧鬧、吵鬧，有沒有民眾會投訴？會投訴嘛，對不對？"],["史董事長哲：會投訴，但是我們沒有法源可以禁止他。"],["黃委員健豪：你現在也沒有法源，你現在只是搭車文化政策而已……"],["史董事長哲：沒有、沒有，我們是在我們跟顧客之間的運輸契約當中明訂了3C戴耳機，以及講手機到玄關，已經明訂出來了。"],["黃委員健豪：但過去一樣，同樣是可以用勸導的方式嘛，我的意思是說，在你正式頒布之前，一樣有勸導的方式可以去做這個事情。"],["史董事長哲：過去是勸導，但是當他不遵守時，我們並沒有執行的法源。"],["黃委員健豪：那你們現在真的去執行後的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["史董事長哲：我們有執行的法源就是在我們的運送契約當中已經明訂了3C戴耳機跟講手機到玄關，如果屢勸不聽，高鐵是可以拒載。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，其實我沒有反對這件事情啦。"],["史董事長哲：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：我認為這件事情是可以的，只是說全列車，包含說針對3C戴耳機，當然這個你們要把它放在契約裡面，這沒問題，只是說像帶小孩的或講話、聊天等等，在過去基本上是用勸導的方式，多數的人也都會尊重列車長的指揮，在我的經驗來講是這樣子。現在既然要推這樣的車廂，那要不要針對寧靜車廂的部分去定義明確一點，比如說寧靜不是只有針對3C戴耳機等等，它的寧靜就是真正的寧靜車廂！因為上車尊重其他人，不要把音量，不要把影片放出來，要戴耳機，然後不要大聲喧嘩，這個理論上是一個搭車的文化，這不一定是法規，這是文化問題。但是你可能要把它……我們本來想像中大家期待的寧靜車廂是真正的，就是說有一、兩節車廂，可能是商務車廂，或可能是第六節或哪一節等等的，它是真正的寧靜車廂，包含大聲喧嘩、講話、聊天等等，都要一定比例的去控制。這點是我覺得高鐵公司……包含你在費用上去做一些區隔，我覺得消費者是能夠接受的，但是你如果採全列？我覺得這在一定程度的執行上會有問題，好不好？董事長。"],["史董事長哲：好，我想這個部分，委員的意見我們會來思考，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝董事長，董事長請回。","我現在要請我們今天的主角，本來是主角，也就是運安會林主委。"],["主席：林主委請。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，最近有發生一件憾事，就是長榮空服員請假的問題，然後後來他不幸的往生等等。我們看到ICAO民營組織裡面有提到，其實疲勞跟過勞屬於制度性的風險，我們在目前運安會的自願報告裡面，當然自願報告的目的應該是為了預防跟提出可能潛在的風險，來評估哪些問題會造成飛安的風險。ICAO有提到疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險，我想在現階段運安會的自願報告系統裡面，只有採購、人事、勞資關係爭議等等，算是可以登錄。過去這些年的經驗來講，目前自願報告上線六年了，花了440萬，簡報的數字，它整體的數據也不多。所以今天我利用剛好有這個案例發生了，過去大家也比較陌生，就是這種自願報告系統，如果今天空服員也好，或者駕駛員也好，或是不管是在天上飛的，還是剛剛提到的臺鐵、高鐵，或是公共運輸等等的，這些員工如果過勞或他覺得疲倦或覺得怎麼樣，到目前為止，它是沒有在自願報告系統裡面，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["黃委員健豪：未來有沒有機會把它列入？這個是我的建議啦，你要把它列入嗎？有沒有機會把它放進去所謂的自願報告系統裡面？"],["林主任委員信得：如果將來有一些案例從個案慢慢變成系統性或通案的時候，會被列入，但目前統計的整個樣本還沒到那個程度，都有可能性。"],["黃委員健豪：你是說因為員工過勞導致的飛安風險還沒有明確嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，如果在調查事件裡面被撈出來，說這個是有可能的話，就變成不見得就只有說，必須要有飛安事故或什麼事故，變成會擴大出來，但現在的樣本數還沒有到那個地方。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，你看一下，我為什麼特別要講這個？因為這不是我講的，這個是國際民航組織講的，它認為疲勞跟過勞是制度性風險啊！如果今天這個制度性風險沒有辦法在事前，或在你們的數據裡面被揭露的話，你們要怎麼知道有沒有人過勞？或是你們要怎麼知道有沒有人……"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以在自願報告系統裡面加強宣導，這個部分請他們也可以提報，這樣子的話……"],["黃委員健豪：選項要有啊，但現在選項好像是沒有的，對不對？就是沒有這個選項。大家過去當然會認為過勞或是上班時數等等的，是屬於勞動部的事情，是屬於民航局的事情，但是今天既然有這個自願報告系統，你們是為了評估風險的、是要去預防的，今天不是說我通報了馬上就要懲處或怎麼樣，不是，你們的工作不是這個，你們的工作應該是為了風險的評估嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["黃委員健豪：今天如果有人過勞、有人時數不對，要開罰，那是勞動部的事；但今天運安會要處理的是整體的風險狀況。如果今天這個風險狀況能夠提前掌握，或是你們很明確知道說，應該不是說國內的，就以航空業為例，哪家航空公司在哪個航班，有特別多人會來填這個自願報告，說我們的時數有點問題，那你們是不是就能夠提早知道某些航班的排班可能有問題？它的駕駛員可能有問題？它的人數可能有問題？提前的預防嘛！不要真的等到事情發生了，我們再回過來說，或是來檢討什麼法律面要修法等等的，這個在你們行政作為上應該就能夠去提前預防啦，主委，未來可以放進去嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上，本質上自願報告系統是沒有限制的，本來它就可以提報。將來我們在宣導的時候，我們跟業界或者民航局跟他們開會的時候，可以講說這個以後應該會被納進來。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，未來這些不管是空服員也好，駕駛員也好，或是臺鐵、高鐵、公路運輸等等的，認為自己……"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們歡迎他們來報。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委謝謝，我就是要這個答案。好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","陳素月","許智傑","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","王育敏","張嘉郡","黃國昌","邱若華","邱志偉","林月琴","張雅琳","陳冠廷","林國成","游顥"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱、衛生福利部次長及台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長史哲列席就「高鐵公司推動\n寧靜車廂所引發正反意見，政策上路近一個月的成效及後續宣導因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00006"}}}