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\"end\": 560.935, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 560.935, \"end\": 560.955, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,490 --> 00:00:07,636\n好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳主委我們請陳主委主委早安\n\n2\n00:00:18,613 --> 00:00:33,827\n剛才前面有委員認為說你沒有具體的作為是因為你是代理沒有不是那個主委所以你才沒有具體的作為不是這樣的意思是這樣嗎我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法案件不會因為是代理不代理\n\n3\n00:00:34,187 --> 00:00:54,458\n但是我想要了解的是剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始就針對深城市AI的這個競爭法的相關的議題來徵詢各界的意見那我相信在上個月你們也收集就是截止收集了嘛\n\n4\n00:00:54,878 --> 00:01:14,479\n那就這個部分而言會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊大方的就是在跟各界收集意見但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了是不是\n\n5\n00:01:16,018 --> 00:01:35,218\n我想媒體議價法部分我們經過院內的討論最後才出現所以你們公平會是一個推沒有我們沒有推我們一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題的立場到底是採取什麼樣的立場那就這個AI甚至是AI的部分AI的部分我們算是很早其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題所以我們開始先收集國內對這個問題的看法\n\n6\n00:01:39,542 --> 00:02:02,036\n那目前收集完了以後我們現在在重整這些資料那看看這些意見跟我們公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性所以目前在這個重整階段那將來會送到委員會去討論那看看接下來那你們討論的情況是如何還沒討論啦因為現在還在分析收回來的資料你們只有在分析資料並沒有進行討論因為收集的資料很多\n\n7\n00:02:02,216 --> 00:02:25,406\n那未來一個月內會不會就是密集的進行這樣子的討論我們現在是密集的進行這個研習那研習完以後一定會送到委員會去討論因為我們目前政府大力的在推廣AI的部分但是我們也發現了深層市的AI它會產生非常多的相關的疑慮\n\n8\n00:02:26,789 --> 00:02:48,885\n例如到底現在運算資源還有這些數位就是訓練的數據以及這些模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上那這會不會造成你們公平交易法的20條這個部分的相關的疑慮\n\n9\n00:02:49,525 --> 00:03:15,114\n這就是我們目前正在研析的就從收回來資料以後我們去看看有些個問題在國外發生但是台灣是不是有例如咧例如啊數據的濫用或者是說有一些排他偏好的一些契約的約款從我們過去對數位市場的了解有些發生在國外的一些關切的議題在台灣事實上我們跟業者了解以後他們是認為台灣目前沒有這個情況\n\n10\n00:03:15,934 --> 00:03:32,596\n所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理但是我們現在看到了深層式AI所製造的內容有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者\n\n11\n00:03:33,217 --> 00:03:59,898\n那這有沒有違反就是公平交易法21條以及不實廣告以及25條概括性不公平的競爭這樣子的相關的疑慮21條當然我目前已經有條文在那邊所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI如果你AI做的一些不實的廣告透過AI的技術來做一些不實廣告的一個商品的銷售那符合我們21條的規定這當然21條可以來處理\n\n12\n00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:24,751\n那是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告必須也要就是說在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造我想這個可以再研議因為我們公平會布置廣告主要強調是廣告的內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距那當然是不是要揭露說這是AI做的\n\n13\n00:04:25,231 --> 00:04:48,500\n我想這邊有個問題就是假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做假設它廣告的內容是真實的那當然不會有不實廣告的問題今天即使你有揭露AI做的但是裡面是不實的那還是一樣會構成不實廣告所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果但是我們現在發現主要的AI的公司都不是設立在台灣\n\n14\n00:04:49,660 --> 00:05:07,732\n他說不定也不是就是在亞洲也沒有分公司他甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等那我想要請問你未來在相關的就是說這些公平法的裁罰上面在美國你敢\n\n15\n00:05:08,773 --> 00:05:20,122\n對美國的公司做裁罰嗎你怎麼樣子跟他收集資訊你怎麼樣子要求他法律文件的取得以及你怎麼樣子對他拿到罰款\n\n16\n00:05:20,919 --> 00:05:43,511\n我想委員點到的是一個問題就是落地歸管的問題那有很多大型的企業它其實沒在台灣落地對現在AI不需要在台灣所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰但是我們還是盡量看能不能透過一些管道包含像我們剛剛有談到國際之間的合作你自己說你現在是你不會因為代理主委你就那個我覺得你現在回答有點保守\n\n17\n00:05:44,840 --> 00:06:02,581\n因為這的確是一個現實就是說落地規管的這個事情公平會其實所能夠做的是有限的因為到底廠商是不是要到台灣來速冊設立一個公司這個基本上跟公平會公平會比較沒有空間可以去介入因為像上次的外送平台我們已經發現一次了嘛\n\n18\n00:06:03,001 --> 00:06:32,841\n對不對他還是在亞洲有總部的情況下可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外那甚至都是在歐美大國那在這個部分甚至我看到你剛才說的你的國際的交流的方面甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面那我想要請問你你怎麼樣子做這些跨境的文件的收集以及你對於這些證據的取得\n\n19\n00:06:33,321 --> 00:06:59,266\n指法還有未來如果真正產生划繁的時候你怎麼做那如果你沒有給一個具體的這樣子的一個說明的時候那當然大家都在境外做了是不是這不會有所謂的境內境內只是被怎麼樣子被欺騙或者是被濫用不知道的消費者是不是\n\n20\n00:07:00,246 --> 00:07:23,708\n我們就剛剛跟委員報告我們會在既有的框架裡面盡量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊那當然跟國際的交流我們事實上在過去個案裡面都有會跟國外的主管機關來討論看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的一些資訊或是討論這個分析的架構那目前因為他沒有落地所以這個就是我們在公平會在調查案子過程當中我們盡量可以做的部分大概就是這樣子\n\n21\n00:07:24,566 --> 00:07:44,759\n還有最重要的一點其實現在在國際上對於AI的這樣子的一個就是競爭法的相關的像歐盟他就是採取的非常嚴謹的就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法的這樣子分層的管理\n\n22\n00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:58,076\n對於美國英國來講他就散佈在各個法律裡面那未來台灣呢你是要散佈在各個法律裡面呢還是要一部法律\n\n23\n00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:18,282\n我想這涉及到整個AI的法制的整體的架構的問題這個公平會不適合在這個地方發言但是我們會從我們競爭法公平交易法角度來看待AI這個問題這就是為什麼我們在做這個公共徵詢的意見我們希望將來有一個政策為什麼你不適合說明因為這個AI涉及的議題太廣了人權隱私\n\n24\n00:08:19,462 --> 00:08:37,287\n對就是因為太廣而且侵害到民眾的以及消費者的甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能那在這時候公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢因為我想未來將來會有一個AI基本法\n\n25\n00:08:37,907 --> 00:08:59,836\n那基本法建立的基本法現在已經有了但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構對基本的架構對於這些侵權或者是沒有沒有很就是說沒有非常嚴明的這個規範那但是我們行政院怎麼樣子做那你公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關\n\n26\n00:09:01,417 --> 00:09:20,955\n所以才會跟委員報告我們會在我們的職權內來看待這個AI的議題我們會按照公平法的架構來延續AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭所可能產生的影響那在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題這是我們在我們的職長範圍內可以做的部分好謝謝謝謝薛宜鳳委員的資訊謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3490\t7636\t好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳主委我們請陳主委主委早安\n18613\t33827\t剛才前面有委員認為說你沒有具體的作為是因為你是代理沒有不是那個主委所以你才沒有具體的作為不是這樣的意思是這樣嗎我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法案件不會因為是代理不代理\n34187\t54458\t但是我想要了解的是剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始就針對深城市AI的這個競爭法的相關的議題來徵詢各界的意見那我相信在上個月你們也收集就是截止收集了嘛\n54878\t74479\t那就這個部分而言會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊大方的就是在跟各界收集意見但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了是不是\n76018\t95218\t我想媒體議價法部分我們經過院內的討論最後才出現所以你們公平會是一個推沒有 我們沒有推我們一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題的立場到底是採取什麼樣的立場那就這個AI甚至是AI的部分AI的部分我們算是很早其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題所以我們開始先收集國內對這個問題的看法\n99542\t122036\t那目前收集完了以後我們現在在重整這些資料那看看這些意見跟我們公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性所以目前在這個重整階段那將來會送到委員會去討論那看看接下來那你們討論的情況是如何還沒討論啦因為現在還在分析收回來的資料你們只有在分析資料並沒有進行討論因為收集的資料很多\n122216\t145406\t那未來一個月內會不會就是密集的進行這樣子的討論我們現在是密集的進行這個研習那研習完以後一定會送到委員會去討論因為我們目前政府大力的在推廣AI的部分但是我們也發現了深層市的AI它會產生非常多的相關的疑慮\n146789\t168885\t例如到底現在運算資源還有這些數位就是訓練的數據以及這些模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上那這會不會造成你們公平交易法的20條這個部分的相關的疑慮\n169525\t195114\t這就是我們目前正在研析的就從收回來資料以後我們去看看有些個問題在國外發生但是台灣是不是有例如咧例如啊 數據的濫用或者是說有一些排他偏好的一些契約的約款從我們過去對數位市場的了解有些發生在國外的一些關切的議題在台灣事實上我們跟業者了解以後他們是認為台灣目前沒有這個情況\n195934\t212596\t所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理但是我們現在看到了深層式AI所製造的內容有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者\n213217\t239898\t那這有沒有違反就是公平交易法21條以及不實廣告以及25條概括性不公平的競爭這樣子的相關的疑慮21條當然我目前已經有條文在那邊所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI如果你AI做的一些不實的廣告透過AI的技術來做一些不實廣告的一個商品的銷售那符合我們21條的規定這當然21條可以來處理\n242040\t264751\t那是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告必須也要就是說在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造我想這個可以再研議因為我們公平會布置廣告主要強調是廣告的內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距那當然是不是要揭露說這是AI做的\n265231\t288500\t我想這邊有個問題就是假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做假設它廣告的內容是真實的那當然不會有不實廣告的問題今天即使你有揭露AI做的但是裡面是不實的那還是一樣會構成不實廣告所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果但是我們現在發現主要的AI的公司都不是設立在台灣\n289660\t307732\t他說不定也不是就是在亞洲也沒有分公司他甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等那我想要請問你未來在相關的就是說這些公平法的裁罰上面在美國你敢\n308773\t320122\t對美國的公司做裁罰嗎你怎麼樣子跟他收集資訊你怎麼樣子要求他法律文件的取得以及你怎麼樣子對他拿到罰款\n320919\t343511\t我想委員點到的是一個問題就是落地歸管的問題那有很多大型的企業它其實沒在台灣落地對 現在AI不需要在台灣所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰但是我們還是盡量看能不能透過一些管道包含像我們剛剛有談到國際之間的合作你自己說你現在是你不會因為代理主委你就那個我覺得你現在回答有點保守\n344840\t362581\t因為這的確是一個現實就是說落地規管的這個事情公平會其實所能夠做的是有限的因為到底廠商是不是要到台灣來速冊設立一個公司這個基本上跟公平會公平會比較沒有空間可以去介入因為像上次的外送平台我們已經發現一次了嘛\n363001\t392841\t對不對他還是在亞洲有總部的情況下可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外那甚至都是在歐美大國那在這個部分甚至我看到你剛才說的你的國際的交流的方面甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面那我想要請問你你怎麼樣子做這些跨境的文件的收集以及你對於這些證據的取得\n393321\t419266\t指法還有未來如果真正產生划繁的時候你怎麼做那如果你沒有給一個具體的這樣子的一個說明的時候那當然大家都在境外做了是不是這不會有所謂的境內境內只是被怎麼樣子被欺騙或者是被濫用不知道的消費者是不是\n420246\t443708\t我們就剛剛跟委員報告我們會在既有的框架裡面盡量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊那當然跟國際的交流我們事實上在過去個案裡面都有會跟國外的主管機關來討論看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的一些資訊或是討論這個分析的架構那目前因為他沒有落地所以這個就是我們在公平會在調查案子過程當中我們盡量可以做的部分大概就是這樣子\n444566\t464759\t還有最重要的一點其實現在在國際上對於AI的這樣子的一個就是競爭法的相關的像歐盟他就是採取的非常嚴謹的就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法的這樣子分層的管理\n465680\t478076\t對於美國英國來講他就散佈在各個法律裡面那未來台灣呢你是要散佈在各個法律裡面呢還是要一部法律\n479312\t498282\t我想這涉及到整個AI的法制的整體的架構的問題這個公平會不適合在這個地方發言但是我們會從我們競爭法公平交易法角度來看待AI這個問題這就是為什麼我們在做這個公共徵詢的意見我們希望將來有一個政策為什麼你不適合說明因為這個AI涉及的議題太廣了人權隱私\n499462\t517287\t對 就是因為太廣而且侵害到民眾的以及消費者的甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能那在這時候公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢因為我想未來將來會有一個AI基本法\n517907\t539836\t那基本法建立的基本法現在已經有了但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構對 基本的架構對於這些侵權或者是沒有沒有很就是說沒有非常嚴明的這個規範那但是我們行政院怎麼樣子做那你公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關\n541417\t560955\t所以才會跟委員報告我們會在我們的職權內來看待這個AI的議題我們會按照公平法的架構來延續AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭所可能產生的影響那在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題這是我們在我們的職長範圍內可以做的部分好 謝謝謝謝薛宜鳳委員的資訊 謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳主委我們請陳主委主委早安\n剛才前面有委員認為說你沒有具體的作為是因為你是代理沒有不是那個主委所以你才沒有具體的作為不是這樣的意思是這樣嗎我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法案件不會因為是代理不代理\n但是我想要了解的是剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始就針對深城市AI的這個競爭法的相關的議題來徵詢各界的意見那我相信在上個月你們也收集就是截止收集了嘛\n那就這個部分而言會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊大方的就是在跟各界收集意見但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了是不是\n我想媒體議價法部分我們經過院內的討論最後才出現所以你們公平會是一個推沒有 我們沒有推我們一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題的立場到底是採取什麼樣的立場那就這個AI甚至是AI的部分AI的部分我們算是很早其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題所以我們開始先收集國內對這個問題的看法\n那目前收集完了以後我們現在在重整這些資料那看看這些意見跟我們公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性所以目前在這個重整階段那將來會送到委員會去討論那看看接下來那你們討論的情況是如何還沒討論啦因為現在還在分析收回來的資料你們只有在分析資料並沒有進行討論因為收集的資料很多\n那未來一個月內會不會就是密集的進行這樣子的討論我們現在是密集的進行這個研習那研習完以後一定會送到委員會去討論因為我們目前政府大力的在推廣AI的部分但是我們也發現了深層市的AI它會產生非常多的相關的疑慮\n例如到底現在運算資源還有這些數位就是訓練的數據以及這些模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上那這會不會造成你們公平交易法的20條這個部分的相關的疑慮\n這就是我們目前正在研析的就從收回來資料以後我們去看看有些個問題在國外發生但是台灣是不是有例如咧例如啊 數據的濫用或者是說有一些排他偏好的一些契約的約款從我們過去對數位市場的了解有些發生在國外的一些關切的議題在台灣事實上我們跟業者了解以後他們是認為台灣目前沒有這個情況\n所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理但是我們現在看到了深層式AI所製造的內容有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者\n那這有沒有違反就是公平交易法21條以及不實廣告以及25條概括性不公平的競爭這樣子的相關的疑慮21條當然我目前已經有條文在那邊所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI如果你AI做的一些不實的廣告透過AI的技術來做一些不實廣告的一個商品的銷售那符合我們21條的規定這當然21條可以來處理\n那是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告必須也要就是說在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造我想這個可以再研議因為我們公平會布置廣告主要強調是廣告的內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距那當然是不是要揭露說這是AI做的\n我想這邊有個問題就是假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做假設它廣告的內容是真實的那當然不會有不實廣告的問題今天即使你有揭露AI做的但是裡面是不實的那還是一樣會構成不實廣告所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果但是我們現在發現主要的AI的公司都不是設立在台灣\n他說不定也不是就是在亞洲也沒有分公司他甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等那我想要請問你未來在相關的就是說這些公平法的裁罰上面在美國你敢\n對美國的公司做裁罰嗎你怎麼樣子跟他收集資訊你怎麼樣子要求他法律文件的取得以及你怎麼樣子對他拿到罰款\n我想委員點到的是一個問題就是落地歸管的問題那有很多大型的企業它其實沒在台灣落地對 現在AI不需要在台灣所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰但是我們還是盡量看能不能透過一些管道包含像我們剛剛有談到國際之間的合作你自己說你現在是你不會因為代理主委你就那個我覺得你現在回答有點保守\n因為這的確是一個現實就是說落地規管的這個事情公平會其實所能夠做的是有限的因為到底廠商是不是要到台灣來速冊設立一個公司這個基本上跟公平會公平會比較沒有空間可以去介入因為像上次的外送平台我們已經發現一次了嘛\n對不對他還是在亞洲有總部的情況下可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外那甚至都是在歐美大國那在這個部分甚至我看到你剛才說的你的國際的交流的方面甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面那我想要請問你你怎麼樣子做這些跨境的文件的收集以及你對於這些證據的取得\n指法還有未來如果真正產生划繁的時候你怎麼做那如果你沒有給一個具體的這樣子的一個說明的時候那當然大家都在境外做了是不是這不會有所謂的境內境內只是被怎麼樣子被欺騙或者是被濫用不知道的消費者是不是\n我們就剛剛跟委員報告我們會在既有的框架裡面盡量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊那當然跟國際的交流我們事實上在過去個案裡面都有會跟國外的主管機關來討論看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的一些資訊或是討論這個分析的架構那目前因為他沒有落地所以這個就是我們在公平會在調查案子過程當中我們盡量可以做的部分大概就是這樣子\n還有最重要的一點其實現在在國際上對於AI的這樣子的一個就是競爭法的相關的像歐盟他就是採取的非常嚴謹的就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法的這樣子分層的管理\n對於美國英國來講他就散佈在各個法律裡面那未來台灣呢你是要散佈在各個法律裡面呢還是要一部法律\n我想這涉及到整個AI的法制的整體的架構的問題這個公平會不適合在這個地方發言但是我們會從我們競爭法公平交易法角度來看待AI這個問題這就是為什麼我們在做這個公共徵詢的意見我們希望將來有一個政策為什麼你不適合說明因為這個AI涉及的議題太廣了人權隱私\n對 就是因為太廣而且侵害到民眾的以及消費者的甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能那在這時候公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢因為我想未來將來會有一個AI基本法\n那基本法建立的基本法現在已經有了但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構對 基本的架構對於這些侵權或者是沒有沒有很就是說沒有非常嚴明的這個規範那但是我們行政院怎麼樣子做那你公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關\n所以才會跟委員報告我們會在我們的職權內來看待這個AI的議題我們會按照公平法的架構來延續AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭所可能產生的影響那在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題這是我們在我們的職長範圍內可以做的部分好 謝謝謝謝薛宜鳳委員的資訊 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.490 --> 00:07.636\n好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳主委我們請陳主委主委早安\n\n00:18.613 --> 00:33.827\n剛才前面有委員認為說你沒有具體的作為是因為你是代理沒有不是那個主委所以你才沒有具體的作為不是這樣的意思是這樣嗎我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法案件不會因為是代理不代理\n\n00:34.187 --> 00:54.458\n但是我想要了解的是剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始就針對深城市AI的這個競爭法的相關的議題來徵詢各界的意見那我相信在上個月你們也收集就是截止收集了嘛\n\n00:54.878 --> 01:14.479\n那就這個部分而言會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊大方的就是在跟各界收集意見但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了是不是\n\n01:16.018 --> 01:35.218\n我想媒體議價法部分我們經過院內的討論最後才出現所以你們公平會是一個推沒有我們沒有推我們一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題的立場到底是採取什麼樣的立場那就這個AI甚至是AI的部分AI的部分我們算是很早其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題所以我們開始先收集國內對這個問題的看法\n\n01:39.542 --> 02:02.036\n那目前收集完了以後我們現在在重整這些資料那看看這些意見跟我們公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性所以目前在這個重整階段那將來會送到委員會去討論那看看接下來那你們討論的情況是如何還沒討論啦因為現在還在分析收回來的資料你們只有在分析資料並沒有進行討論因為收集的資料很多\n\n02:02.216 --> 02:25.406\n那未來一個月內會不會就是密集的進行這樣子的討論我們現在是密集的進行這個研習那研習完以後一定會送到委員會去討論因為我們目前政府大力的在推廣AI的部分但是我們也發現了深層市的AI它會產生非常多的相關的疑慮\n\n02:26.789 --> 02:48.885\n例如到底現在運算資源還有這些數位就是訓練的數據以及這些模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上那這會不會造成你們公平交易法的20條這個部分的相關的疑慮\n\n02:49.525 --> 03:15.114\n這就是我們目前正在研析的就從收回來資料以後我們去看看有些個問題在國外發生但是台灣是不是有例如咧例如啊數據的濫用或者是說有一些排他偏好的一些契約的約款從我們過去對數位市場的了解有些發生在國外的一些關切的議題在台灣事實上我們跟業者了解以後他們是認為台灣目前沒有這個情況\n\n03:15.934 --> 03:32.596\n所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理但是我們現在看到了深層式AI所製造的內容有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者\n\n03:33.217 --> 03:59.898\n那這有沒有違反就是公平交易法21條以及不實廣告以及25條概括性不公平的競爭這樣子的相關的疑慮21條當然我目前已經有條文在那邊所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI如果你AI做的一些不實的廣告透過AI的技術來做一些不實廣告的一個商品的銷售那符合我們21條的規定這當然21條可以來處理\n\n04:02.040 --> 04:24.751\n那是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告必須也要就是說在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造我想這個可以再研議因為我們公平會布置廣告主要強調是廣告的內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距那當然是不是要揭露說這是AI做的\n\n04:25.231 --> 04:48.500\n我想這邊有個問題就是假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做假設它廣告的內容是真實的那當然不會有不實廣告的問題今天即使你有揭露AI做的但是裡面是不實的那還是一樣會構成不實廣告所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果但是我們現在發現主要的AI的公司都不是設立在台灣\n\n04:49.660 --> 05:07.732\n他說不定也不是就是在亞洲也沒有分公司他甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等那我想要請問你未來在相關的就是說這些公平法的裁罰上面在美國你敢\n\n05:08.773 --> 05:20.122\n對美國的公司做裁罰嗎你怎麼樣子跟他收集資訊你怎麼樣子要求他法律文件的取得以及你怎麼樣子對他拿到罰款\n\n05:20.919 --> 05:43.511\n我想委員點到的是一個問題就是落地歸管的問題那有很多大型的企業它其實沒在台灣落地對現在AI不需要在台灣所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰但是我們還是盡量看能不能透過一些管道包含像我們剛剛有談到國際之間的合作你自己說你現在是你不會因為代理主委你就那個我覺得你現在回答有點保守\n\n05:44.840 --> 06:02.581\n因為這的確是一個現實就是說落地規管的這個事情公平會其實所能夠做的是有限的因為到底廠商是不是要到台灣來速冊設立一個公司這個基本上跟公平會公平會比較沒有空間可以去介入因為像上次的外送平台我們已經發現一次了嘛\n\n06:03.001 --> 06:32.841\n對不對他還是在亞洲有總部的情況下可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外那甚至都是在歐美大國那在這個部分甚至我看到你剛才說的你的國際的交流的方面甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面那我想要請問你你怎麼樣子做這些跨境的文件的收集以及你對於這些證據的取得\n\n06:33.321 --> 06:59.266\n指法還有未來如果真正產生划繁的時候你怎麼做那如果你沒有給一個具體的這樣子的一個說明的時候那當然大家都在境外做了是不是這不會有所謂的境內境內只是被怎麼樣子被欺騙或者是被濫用不知道的消費者是不是\n\n07:00.246 --> 07:23.708\n我們就剛剛跟委員報告我們會在既有的框架裡面盡量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊那當然跟國際的交流我們事實上在過去個案裡面都有會跟國外的主管機關來討論看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的一些資訊或是討論這個分析的架構那目前因為他沒有落地所以這個就是我們在公平會在調查案子過程當中我們盡量可以做的部分大概就是這樣子\n\n07:24.566 --> 07:44.759\n還有最重要的一點其實現在在國際上對於AI的這樣子的一個就是競爭法的相關的像歐盟他就是採取的非常嚴謹的就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法的這樣子分層的管理\n\n07:45.680 --> 07:58.076\n對於美國英國來講他就散佈在各個法律裡面那未來台灣呢你是要散佈在各個法律裡面呢還是要一部法律\n\n07:59.312 --> 08:18.282\n我想這涉及到整個AI的法制的整體的架構的問題這個公平會不適合在這個地方發言但是我們會從我們競爭法公平交易法角度來看待AI這個問題這就是為什麼我們在做這個公共徵詢的意見我們希望將來有一個政策為什麼你不適合說明因為這個AI涉及的議題太廣了人權隱私\n\n08:19.462 --> 08:37.287\n對就是因為太廣而且侵害到民眾的以及消費者的甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能那在這時候公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢因為我想未來將來會有一個AI基本法\n\n08:37.907 --> 08:59.836\n那基本法建立的基本法現在已經有了但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構對基本的架構對於這些侵權或者是沒有沒有很就是說沒有非常嚴明的這個規範那但是我們行政院怎麼樣子做那你公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關\n\n09:01.417 --> 09:20.955\n所以才會跟委員報告我們會在我們的職權內來看待這個AI的議題我們會按照公平法的架構來延續AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭所可能產生的影響那在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題這是我們在我們的職長範圍內可以做的部分好謝謝謝謝薛宜鳳委員的資訊謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.49,"end":7.636,"text":"好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳主委我們請陳主委主委早安"},{"start":18.613,"end":33.827,"text":"剛才前面有委員認為說你沒有具體的作為是因為你是代理沒有不是那個主委所以你才沒有具體的作為不是這樣的意思是這樣嗎我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法案件不會因為是代理不代理"},{"start":34.187,"end":54.458,"text":"但是我想要了解的是剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始就針對深城市AI的這個競爭法的相關的議題來徵詢各界的意見那我相信在上個月你們也收集就是截止收集了嘛"},{"start":54.878,"end":74.479,"text":"那就這個部分而言會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊大方的就是在跟各界收集意見但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了是不是"},{"start":76.018,"end":95.218,"text":"我想媒體議價法部分我們經過院內的討論最後才出現所以你們公平會是一個推沒有 我們沒有推我們一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題的立場到底是採取什麼樣的立場那就這個AI甚至是AI的部分AI的部分我們算是很早其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題所以我們開始先收集國內對這個問題的看法"},{"start":99.542,"end":122.036,"text":"那目前收集完了以後我們現在在重整這些資料那看看這些意見跟我們公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性所以目前在這個重整階段那將來會送到委員會去討論那看看接下來那你們討論的情況是如何還沒討論啦因為現在還在分析收回來的資料你們只有在分析資料並沒有進行討論因為收集的資料很多"},{"start":122.216,"end":145.406,"text":"那未來一個月內會不會就是密集的進行這樣子的討論我們現在是密集的進行這個研習那研習完以後一定會送到委員會去討論因為我們目前政府大力的在推廣AI的部分但是我們也發現了深層市的AI它會產生非常多的相關的疑慮"},{"start":146.789,"end":168.885,"text":"例如到底現在運算資源還有這些數位就是訓練的數據以及這些模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上那這會不會造成你們公平交易法的20條這個部分的相關的疑慮"},{"start":169.525,"end":195.114,"text":"這就是我們目前正在研析的就從收回來資料以後我們去看看有些個問題在國外發生但是台灣是不是有例如咧例如啊 數據的濫用或者是說有一些排他偏好的一些契約的約款從我們過去對數位市場的了解有些發生在國外的一些關切的議題在台灣事實上我們跟業者了解以後他們是認為台灣目前沒有這個情況"},{"start":195.934,"end":212.596,"text":"所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理但是我們現在看到了深層式AI所製造的內容有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者"},{"start":213.217,"end":239.898,"text":"那這有沒有違反就是公平交易法21條以及不實廣告以及25條概括性不公平的競爭這樣子的相關的疑慮21條當然我目前已經有條文在那邊所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI如果你AI做的一些不實的廣告透過AI的技術來做一些不實廣告的一個商品的銷售那符合我們21條的規定這當然21條可以來處理"},{"start":242.04,"end":264.751,"text":"那是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告必須也要就是說在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造我想這個可以再研議因為我們公平會布置廣告主要強調是廣告的內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距那當然是不是要揭露說這是AI做的"},{"start":265.231,"end":288.5,"text":"我想這邊有個問題就是假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做假設它廣告的內容是真實的那當然不會有不實廣告的問題今天即使你有揭露AI做的但是裡面是不實的那還是一樣會構成不實廣告所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果但是我們現在發現主要的AI的公司都不是設立在台灣"},{"start":289.66,"end":307.732,"text":"他說不定也不是就是在亞洲也沒有分公司他甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等那我想要請問你未來在相關的就是說這些公平法的裁罰上面在美國你敢"},{"start":308.773,"end":320.122,"text":"對美國的公司做裁罰嗎你怎麼樣子跟他收集資訊你怎麼樣子要求他法律文件的取得以及你怎麼樣子對他拿到罰款"},{"start":320.919,"end":343.511,"text":"我想委員點到的是一個問題就是落地歸管的問題那有很多大型的企業它其實沒在台灣落地對 現在AI不需要在台灣所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰但是我們還是盡量看能不能透過一些管道包含像我們剛剛有談到國際之間的合作你自己說你現在是你不會因為代理主委你就那個我覺得你現在回答有點保守"},{"start":344.84,"end":362.581,"text":"因為這的確是一個現實就是說落地規管的這個事情公平會其實所能夠做的是有限的因為到底廠商是不是要到台灣來速冊設立一個公司這個基本上跟公平會公平會比較沒有空間可以去介入因為像上次的外送平台我們已經發現一次了嘛"},{"start":363.001,"end":392.841,"text":"對不對他還是在亞洲有總部的情況下可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外那甚至都是在歐美大國那在這個部分甚至我看到你剛才說的你的國際的交流的方面甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面那我想要請問你你怎麼樣子做這些跨境的文件的收集以及你對於這些證據的取得"},{"start":393.321,"end":419.266,"text":"指法還有未來如果真正產生划繁的時候你怎麼做那如果你沒有給一個具體的這樣子的一個說明的時候那當然大家都在境外做了是不是這不會有所謂的境內境內只是被怎麼樣子被欺騙或者是被濫用不知道的消費者是不是"},{"start":420.246,"end":443.708,"text":"我們就剛剛跟委員報告我們會在既有的框架裡面盡量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊那當然跟國際的交流我們事實上在過去個案裡面都有會跟國外的主管機關來討論看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的一些資訊或是討論這個分析的架構那目前因為他沒有落地所以這個就是我們在公平會在調查案子過程當中我們盡量可以做的部分大概就是這樣子"},{"start":444.566,"end":464.759,"text":"還有最重要的一點其實現在在國際上對於AI的這樣子的一個就是競爭法的相關的像歐盟他就是採取的非常嚴謹的就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法的這樣子分層的管理"},{"start":465.68,"end":478.076,"text":"對於美國英國來講他就散佈在各個法律裡面那未來台灣呢你是要散佈在各個法律裡面呢還是要一部法律"},{"start":479.312,"end":498.282,"text":"我想這涉及到整個AI的法制的整體的架構的問題這個公平會不適合在這個地方發言但是我們會從我們競爭法公平交易法角度來看待AI這個問題這就是為什麼我們在做這個公共徵詢的意見我們希望將來有一個政策為什麼你不適合說明因為這個AI涉及的議題太廣了人權隱私"},{"start":499.462,"end":517.287,"text":"對 就是因為太廣而且侵害到民眾的以及消費者的甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能那在這時候公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢因為我想未來將來會有一個AI基本法"},{"start":517.907,"end":539.836,"text":"那基本法建立的基本法現在已經有了但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構對 基本的架構對於這些侵權或者是沒有沒有很就是說沒有非常嚴明的這個規範那但是我們行政院怎麼樣子做那你公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關"},{"start":541.417,"end":560.955,"text":"所以才會跟委員報告我們會在我們的職權內來看待這個AI的議題我們會按照公平法的架構來延續AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭所可能產生的影響那在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題這是我們在我們的職長範圍內可以做的部分好 謝謝謝謝薛宜鳳委員的資訊 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時26分）好，謝謝主席，我想要請陳主委。"],["主席：我們請陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委早安。剛才前面有委員認為你沒有具體的作為，是因為你是代理，不是主委，所以你才沒有具體的作為？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有、沒有，不是這樣的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是這樣吧？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法的案件，不會因為是代理、不代理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我想要了解的是，剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始，就針對生成式AI的競爭法相關議題來徵詢各界的意見，我相信在上個月你們也截止收集了，就這個部分而言，會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊！大方的在跟各界收集意見，但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想媒體議價法部分，我們經過院內的討論，最後才出現……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們公平會是推、推、推？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，我們沒有推，我們在一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題到底是採取什麼樣的立場。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那就這一個生成式AI的部分呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：AI的部分，我們算是很早，其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題，所以我們開始先收集國內對這個問題的看法，目前收集完了以後，我們現在在綜整這些資料，看看這些意見跟公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性，所以目前在綜整階段，將來會送到委員會去討論，看看接下來要採取……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們討論的情況是如何？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：還沒討論，因為現在還在分析收回來的資料，因為最近才……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們只有在分析資料，並沒有進行討論？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為收集的資料很多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來一個月內會不會密集地進行這樣子的討論？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們現在是密集地進行研析，研析完以後一定會送到委員會去討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為目前政府大力地在推廣AI的部分，但是我們也發現了生成式AI會產生非常多的相關疑慮，例如到底現在運算資源還有這些訓練的數據以及模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上，這會不會造成公平交易法第二十條這部分的相關疑慮？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這就是我們目前正在研析的，從收回來的資料以後，我們去看看有些問題在國外發生，但是臺灣是不是有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：例如呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：例如數據的濫用或者是有一些排他偏好的契約約款，從我們過去對數位市場的了解，有些發生在國外所關切的議題在臺灣，事實上我們跟業者了解以後，他們認為臺灣目前沒有這個情況，所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們現在看到了生成式AI所製造的內容，有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者，這有沒有違反公平交易法第二十一條以及不實廣告？以及第二十五條概括性不公平競爭這樣子的相關疑慮？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：第二十一條目前已經有條文在那邊，所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI，如果透過AI技術來做一些不實廣告的商品銷售，符合我們第二十一條的規定，當然第二十一條可以來處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告，必須在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這個可以再研議，因為公平會針對不實廣告主要強調的是廣告內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距，當然是不是要揭露這是AI做的，我想這邊有一個問題，假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做的，只要廣告內容是真實的，當然不會有不實廣告的問題，今天即使你有揭露AI做的，但是裡面是不實的，還是一樣會構成不實廣告，所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們現在發現主要AI的公司都不是設立在臺灣，說不定也不是在亞洲，也沒有分公司，它甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等。我想要請問你，未來在相關的這些公平法的裁罰上面，比如在美國，你敢對美國的公司做裁罰嗎？你怎麼樣子跟它蒐集資訊、你怎麼樣要求它法律文件的取得，以及你怎麼樣對它拿到罰鍰？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想委員點到的是一個問題，就是落地歸管的問題，有很多大型的企業其實沒在臺灣落地。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，現在AI不需要在臺灣。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰，但是我們還是儘量看能不能透過一些管道，包含像我們剛剛有談到國際之間的合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你自己說你不會因為是代理主委，你就那個……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我覺得你現在的回答有點保守，你沒有實際地說……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為這的確是一個現實，就是有關落地歸管這個事情，公平會其實所能夠做的是有限的，因為到底廠商是不是要到臺灣來註冊設立一個公司，基本上公平會比較沒有空間可以去介入。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為像上一次的外送平臺，我們已經發現一次了，對不對？它還是在亞洲有總部的情況下，可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外，甚至都是在歐美大國，在這個部分，我看到你剛才所說的國際交流，甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面。我想請問你，你怎麼樣做這些跨境文件的蒐集，以及你對於這些證據的取得、執法，還有未來如果真正產生問題的時候，你怎麼做？如果你沒有給具體說明的時候，當然大家都在境外做了，是不是？這不會有所謂的境內，境內只是被欺騙或者是被濫用的不知情消費者，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就如同剛剛跟委員報告的，我們會在既有的框架裡面，儘量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊，當然跟國際的交流，事實上我們在過去的個案裡面都有，會跟國外的主管機關討論，看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的資訊或是討論分析的架構。目前因為它沒有落地，所以這個就是公平會在調查案子的過程當中，我們儘量可以做的部分，大概就是這樣子。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有最重要的一點，其實現在國際上對於AI競爭法相關的部分，像歐盟就是採取非常嚴謹的方式、就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法分層在管理，但對於美國、英國來講，它就散布在各個法律裡面，未來臺灣呢？你是要散布在各個法律裡面，還是要一部法律？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這涉及到整個AI法制整體架構的問題，公平會不適合在這個地方發言，但是我們會從我們競爭法、公平交易法的角度來看待AI這個問題，這就是為什麼我們在做公共徵詢的意見，我們希望將來有一個政策的周延……"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼你不適合說明？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為AI涉及的議題太廣了，包括人權、隱私各方面的議題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是因為太廣，而且侵害到民眾的、消費者的部分，甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能，在這時候，公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為將來會有一個AI基本法，基本法建立了所有AI的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：基本法現在已經有了，但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，它是基本的架構、基本的大原則。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於這些侵權或者其他部分並沒有非常嚴明的規範，但是行政院要怎麼樣做，其實公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，跟委員報告，我們會在我們的職權內來看待AI的議題，我們會按照公平法的架構，來研析AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭可能產生的影響，在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題，這是在我們的職掌範圍內可以做的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員的質詢，謝謝主委。","現在請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-4","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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