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00:00:31,348\n我們造劍確實是非常的困難可是我們發現要跟國衛來構置這個潛艦更是艱困重重我們可以看到其實從這30年來我們根本買不到這個潛艦\n\n3\n00:00:47,703 --> 00:00:48,824\n所以其實我們從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記裡面可以看到其實從1930年代以來我們多次的向國外購買潛艦可是始終是遭遇到阻礙\n\n4\n00:01:04,497 --> 00:01:08,600\n像過去我們曾經跟德國、英國、義大利甚至美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙都曾經要來接洽、要構置這個潛艦可是就是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的從這個簡報上面我們看到這個紅色的大叉叉其實就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的這個部分目前僅有少數的幾次\n\n5\n00:01:34,997 --> 00:01:59,773\n1964年我们跟意大利购得了海舱艇队1969年同样向意大利购得海角跟海龙号这三艘潜舰其实都已经年代久远也都已经除役了1973年美国移交的海师号跟海豹号虽然高龄52岁了可是还在服役当中1987年荷兰我们取得了舰龙级的海龙号跟海虎号\n\n6\n00:02:00,934 --> 00:02:14,718\n那這之後的三十年我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他的國家購買新造或是二手的這個潛艦其實都因為國際的壓力所以都沒有辦法成功那就是要面對現實我們也有國防的這個需求所以我們沒有選擇我們只好自己來建造這個潛艦那從有到無其實要培養這個自主設計跟這個製造的能力我們必須要確保這個水下的戰力不再受制於人\n\n7\n00:02:29,122 --> 00:02:31,803\n那為什麼我說的這麼一大片那除了就是說為什麼我們要自己來建造這個潛艦那再來還有一點就是說我剛有提到我們從有到無培養這個自主設計跟製造這個能力其實這是一個很困難的一個過程那當然我有看到就是說我們有排定了這個之前的這個預期的這個進程我想請問部長我們當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀\n\n8\n00:02:56,974 --> 00:03:13,866\n我們本來是2025年4月要進入這個SA7的這個階段進入海測的階段2025年9月完成海測2025年11月要完成這個交界我們是從有到無整個過程我們是說很多因素我們都沒有考慮到\n\n9\n00:03:15,447 --> 00:03:32,586\n比如说刚刚我有看到你们在报告的时候有提到比如说像主机自动充电功能验证设计多方不同厂家共同配合施作协调厂家排程制增加测试的时间像这些多重的因素当初我们在设定这个预期的进程的时候是都没有考虑进来\n\n10\n00:03:33,714 --> 00:03:51,968\n4月份才要進入海測階段我們11月份就要完成交建當初我們設定這個進程是不是太過於樂觀其實像這個我們要協調不同的廠家共同配合不同廠家可能都是來自於國外嘛敲大家的時間然後就會增加這個測試的這個當然會增加這個測試的時間\n\n11\n00:03:55,370 --> 00:04:03,142\n所以現在大家都說我們這個交建延宕是不是我們當初在預期進程的這個設定其實就出了這個問題請問部長\n\n12\n00:04:06,563 --> 00:04:35,193\n我想主要就是說我們在整個建造的過程當中就有關相關的裝備也好或者是這些原廠的技協要來協助也好可能他們沒有辦法說完全第一時間就能夠來配合所以在這個部分確實在這個建造的過程當中顯示我們這個時程的這個安排沒有辦法\n\n13\n00:04:36,033 --> 00:04:45,233\n如果我們所想像的說我們說誰叫誰到那確實是在這個部分上面面臨了一些失誠的延宕\n\n14\n00:04:46,781 --> 00:05:10,126\n所以說嘛所以我們在設定這個預測我有看你們這個流程這整8個月從海測到交建只有8個月的時間實際上你看我們的進程我們6月份才進入海測然後10月13號才進行完成三次的這個浮航測試那到底潛航這個潛水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成目前都還沒有時間表嘛\n\n15\n00:05:11,026 --> 00:05:27,818\n對不對我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題因為還有很多都還有未確定的因素存在對不對我們現在後續就是說要以潛水潛航的這個標準來再進一步進行這一個無航測試\n\n16\n00:05:29,099 --> 00:05:41,542\n那麼針對這個浮航測試如果能夠通過我們就會再進行潛水潛航的測試一切以安全跟品質為上\n\n17\n00:05:42,373 --> 00:05:56,619\n對我們理解我們都可以知道說安全無虞還有這個品質確保這是最首要的只是說當初給的師承可能太於樂觀所以2025年11月要交建我想已經不可能了那我再請教部長像之前我們應該可以理解其實有很多的國家其實就算是有過經驗的這個國家他們在這個造建整個過程過程平均\n\n18\n00:06:08,643 --> 00:06:22,793\n從一開始到交艦都是花了多少年的時間平均大約我們這個時程會太快了一點我們當初訂定我們是五年五年多嘛對不對其他的國家呢到底照一部艦艇到其他國家到底要花多少時間\n\n19\n00:06:23,633 --> 00:06:45,314\n我想主要是要看它是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的如果是首次的話以其他國家的經驗來看的話大概都要耗時7年到甚至有高達16年7年到16年我們怎麼會有勇氣就是5年多我們就要交件了\n\n20\n00:06:46,098 --> 00:07:08,865\n所以委員剛的指教我想是對的我們確實在建造的時程的安排上面沒有去理解現實上面事實上會面臨很多困難尤其是我們的國情所面臨的一些\n\n21\n00:07:10,826 --> 00:07:18,078\n裝備上的籌貨啦或者是一些原廠機械人員來安排這些等等都\n\n22\n00:07:20,667 --> 00:07:45,233\n在這個海軍在報告過程當中可以看到這樣子的一些困難在時間上面在籌貨裝備的這個部分上面我在想籌貨裝備這部分應該也受到很大的壓力吧是不是所以我們都要有很多的備援備援的一種思考就是說如果面臨到困難我們可以轉個\n\n23\n00:07:47,453 --> 00:08:06,859\n請求其他的這個籌貨的途徑這樣子對啊其他的國家7到16年才完成一艘潛艦那我們卻是要短短的時間說我們有能力完成所以當初這個時程的訂定其實就是錯誤的那再來還有一點我也有看到其他的國家那其他計算是有造艦經驗的國家你看一下瑞典美國\n\n24\n00:08:07,799 --> 00:08:27,990\n現在瑞典它這個布萊金額級的潛艦它因為新技術跟這個成本的這個關係你看它本來是2024年要交艦可是可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的像美國的維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是它可能會在延後\n\n25\n00:08:29,551 --> 00:08:50,861\n兩到三年像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦也是預定是2027年10月要交建可能延後一年或一年多的這個時間所以到底我們本來是11月要交建那可能會不會會類似他們這樣子可能一年的一年一年多有可能嗎我們會盡量努力要盡快我想我們歷經了很多挑戰\n\n26\n00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:20,717\n我想確實是有落後在海上測試那我覺得還是不過還是以安全無虞平直確保為首要啦這點還是必須是還是要按部就本來做就是說我們當初定的時程造成後續有很多的留言就是說我們可能沒辦法完成很多的這個這個謠言出現了打擊了這個\n\n27\n00:09:21,798 --> 00:09:44,911\n國人這個信心我想這個部分可能之後我們真的是要非常的注意這個樂觀的這個狀態好那再來的話我想請教一下那從六月份開始呢有大量的簡體字的賬號然後製作圖卡跟這個短影那集中操作中我們的錢就是不會錢啊我們的這個這個挺體呢其實是變形的那我們很知道的都是來自中國的很典型的認知作戰的這個手法\n\n28\n00:09:45,291 --> 00:10:03,424\n那像這種假消息在外流傳那我們有沒有跟速發部跟其他的機構就是機關合作對於這個假消息我們要如何去澄清那如何去下架這些假消息尤其是我們這個前件涉及這個機密有很多部分你無法公開澄清那我們要如何處理呢很多東西你不能說嘛\n\n29\n00:10:06,326 --> 00:10:23,615\n確實是有這樣子的一個有關涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題但是如果不涉及機密的範疇的話我們現在應該都會立即以新聞稿來澄清映出這叫馬上來做澄清不要讓他去發酵\n\n30\n00:10:25,896 --> 00:10:51,024\n但是有一些相關的商源、機敏資訊等等的這些是受法規的約束的我們可能有些部分是也沒辦法對溝通所以有些部分會覺得那個啞巴吃黃蓮你沒有辦法去做解釋會嗎?會有這種狀況嗎?因為我們要避免遭有些人刺探或禽獸啦所以有些部分還是要保持他的機敏性這樣子\n\n31\n00:10:51,604 --> 00:11:03,949\n那對於像這個很多大部分都是來自於中國的這個認知作戰中國出產國內的這個協力者然後接力來做這個流傳像這個的話我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎沒有辦法來做處理嗎\n\n32\n00:11:07,090 --> 00:11:24,658\n像下架啦或是有一些行者我想我們現在已經跟海軍有做過一個密切討論以後會就是我們現在就區隔就是說什麼是機敏不是機敏今天的部分我們把它在這個內容上我還是沒辦法丟掉的但\n\n33\n00:11:26,152 --> 00:11:44,287\n有涉及到相關這些假訊息的部分我們在不涉及精明的環境之內我們迅速的予以回應來防堵這些認知作戰的作為這樣子所以在國立的這個協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎如果他們就是這樣子把這假消息給流傳出去我們一點辦法都沒有嗎\n\n34\n00:11:45,659 --> 00:12:02,568\n我想立即的這個回應是我們現在我們只能做到回應所以他們這些人在整個流傳其實也都沒有任何的這些假訊息如果涉及有違法的問題的話這個由相關的執法機關來進行應出有要補充的嗎\n\n35\n00:12:07,731 --> 00:12:35,064\n委員好我是光部發言人針對這個議題我們確實是非常關注因為所有認知作戰操作基本上它都是有跡可循的如同委員所說的那麼如何去綿密的監控它認知作戰發展的一個趨勢它對方放假訊息的一個方向以及它攻擊的重點這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項我們從這個點來著手然後針對它的攻擊的內容來去做一個澄清甚至在必要的時候\n\n36\n00:12:35,564 --> 00:12:41,034\n以事先以主动的这种说明的作为来去破解他的一个攻击以上报告\n\n37\n00:12:41,738 --> 00:13:09,984\nOK因為我是覺得說像台灣是應該是全世界受到錯腳消息攻擊最多的這個國家像這個部分的話我是希望說各個部會都能夠強硬起來尤其我是覺得一直都沒有聽到他這樣說他這些人到底有沒有刑罰的這個部分就變成說這些人覺得我去流傳這個東西反正我打擊的國家我打擊的台灣好像也沒有關係所以這個部分我想這個部分大家應該要繼續來做這個加強跟努力OK好以上謝謝是應該要加強\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t3051\t謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長市長 羅威恩好部長好 部長 潛艦國造從一開始到現在可以說是這個錯假消息不斷甚至還有人會問說造艦這麼的困難為什麼要自己來造呢為什麼不直接向國外來購買呢我們來看這個圖\n28826\t31348\t我們造劍確實是非常的困難可是我們發現要跟國衛來構置這個潛艦更是艱困重重我們可以看到其實從這30年來我們根本買不到這個潛艦\n47703\t48824\t所以其實我們從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記裡面可以看到其實從1930年代以來我們多次的向國外購買潛艦可是始終是遭遇到阻礙\n64497\t68600\t像過去我們曾經跟德國、英國、義大利甚至美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙都曾經要來接洽、要構置這個潛艦可是就是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的從這個簡報上面我們看到這個紅色的大叉叉其實就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的這個部分目前僅有少數的幾次\n94997\t119773\t1964年我们跟意大利购得了海舱艇队1969年同样向意大利购得海角跟海龙号这三艘潜舰其实都已经年代久远也都已经除役了1973年美国移交的海师号跟海豹号虽然高龄52岁了可是还在服役当中1987年荷兰我们取得了舰龙级的海龙号跟海虎号\n120934\t134718\t那這之後的三十年我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他的國家購買新造或是二手的這個潛艦其實都因為國際的壓力所以都沒有辦法成功那就是要面對現實我們也有國防的這個需求所以我們沒有選擇我們只好自己來建造這個潛艦那從有到無其實要培養這個自主設計跟這個製造的能力我們必須要確保這個水下的戰力不再受制於人\n149122\t151803\t那為什麼我說的這麼一大片那除了就是說為什麼我們要自己來建造這個潛艦那再來還有一點就是說我剛有提到我們從有到無培養這個自主設計跟製造這個能力其實這是一個很困難的一個過程那當然我有看到就是說我們有排定了這個之前的這個預期的這個進程我想請問部長我們當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀\n176974\t193866\t我們本來是2025年4月要進入這個SA7的這個階段進入海測的階段2025年9月完成海測2025年11月要完成這個交界我們是從有到無整個過程我們是說很多因素我們都沒有考慮到\n195447\t212586\t比如说刚刚我有看到你们在报告的时候有提到比如说像主机自动充电功能验证设计多方不同厂家共同配合施作协调厂家排程制增加测试的时间像这些多重的因素当初我们在设定这个预期的进程的时候是都没有考虑进来\n213714\t231968\t4月份才要進入海測階段我們11月份就要完成交建當初我們設定這個進程是不是太過於樂觀其實像這個我們要協調不同的廠家共同配合不同廠家可能都是來自於國外嘛敲大家的時間然後就會增加這個測試的這個當然會增加這個測試的時間\n235370\t243142\t所以現在大家都說我們這個交建延宕是不是我們當初在預期進程的這個設定其實就出了這個問題請問部長\n246563\t275193\t我想主要就是說我們在整個建造的過程當中就有關相關的裝備也好或者是這些原廠的技協要來協助也好可能他們沒有辦法說完全第一時間就能夠來配合所以在這個部分確實在這個建造的過程當中顯示我們這個時程的這個安排沒有辦法\n276033\t285233\t如果我們所想像的說我們說誰叫誰到那確實是在這個部分上面面臨了一些失誠的延宕\n286781\t310126\t所以說嘛 所以我們在設定這個預測我有看你們這個流程這整8個月從海測到交建只有8個月的時間實際上你看我們的進程我們6月份才進入海測然後10月13號才進行完成三次的這個浮航測試那到底潛航這個潛水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成目前都還沒有時間表嘛\n311026\t327818\t對不對我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題因為還有很多都還有未確定的因素存在對不對我們現在後續就是說要以潛水潛航的這個標準來再進一步進行這一個無航測試\n329099\t341542\t那麼針對這個浮航測試如果能夠通過我們就會再進行潛水潛航的測試一切以安全跟品質為上\n342373\t356619\t對 我們理解 我們都可以知道說安全無虞還有這個品質確保這是最首要的只是說當初給的師承可能太於樂觀所以2025年11月要交建我想已經不可能了那我再請教部長像之前我們應該可以理解其實有很多的國家其實就算是有過經驗的這個國家他們在這個造建整個過程過程平均\n368643\t382793\t從一開始到交艦都是花了多少年的時間 平均大約我們這個時程會太快了一點我們當初訂定 我們是五年五年多嘛 對不對 其他的國家呢到底照一部艦艇到其他國家到底要花多少時間\n383633\t405314\t我想主要是要看它是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的如果是首次的話以其他國家的經驗來看的話大概都要耗時7年到甚至有高達16年7年到16年我們怎麼會有勇氣就是5年多我們就要交件了\n406098\t428865\t所以委員剛的指教我想是對的我們確實在建造的時程的安排上面沒有去理解現實上面事實上會面臨很多困難尤其是我們的國情所面臨的一些\n430826\t438078\t裝備上的籌貨啦或者是一些原廠機械人員來安排這些等等都\n440667\t465233\t在這個海軍在報告過程當中可以看到這樣子的一些困難在時間上面在籌貨裝備的這個部分上面我在想籌貨裝備這部分應該也受到很大的壓力吧是不是所以我們都要有很多的備援備援的一種思考就是說如果面臨到困難我們可以轉個\n467453\t486859\t請求其他的這個籌貨的途徑這樣子對啊 其他的國家7到16年才完成一艘潛艦那我們卻是要短短的時間說我們有能力完成所以當初這個時程的訂定其實就是錯誤的那再來還有一點我也有看到其他的國家那其他計算是有造艦經驗的國家你看一下瑞典 美國\n487799\t507990\t現在瑞典它這個布萊金額級的潛艦它因為新技術跟這個成本的這個關係你看它本來是2024年要交艦可是可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的像美國的維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是它可能會在延後\n509551\t530861\t兩到三年像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦也是預定是2027年10月要交建可能延後一年或一年多的這個時間所以到底我們本來是11月要交建那可能會不會會類似他們這樣子可能一年的一年一年多有可能嗎我們會盡量努力要盡快我想我們歷經了很多挑戰\n538840\t560717\t我想確實是有落後在海上測試那我覺得還是不過還是以安全無虞平直確保為首要啦這點還是必須是還是要按部就本來做就是說我們當初定的時程造成後續有很多的留言就是說我們可能沒辦法完成很多的這個這個謠言出現了打擊了這個\n561798\t584911\t國人這個信心我想這個部分可能之後我們真的是要非常的注意這個樂觀的這個狀態好那再來的話我想請教一下那從六月份開始呢有大量的簡體字的賬號然後製作圖卡跟這個短影那集中操作中我們的錢就是不會錢啊我們的這個這個挺體呢其實是變形的那我們很知道的都是來自中國的很典型的認知作戰的這個手法\n585291\t603424\t那像這種假消息在外流傳那我們有沒有跟速發部跟其他的機構就是機關合作對於這個假消息我們要如何去澄清那如何去下架這些假消息尤其是我們這個前件涉及這個機密有很多部分你無法公開澄清那我們要如何處理呢很多東西你不能說嘛\n606326\t623615\t確實是有這樣子的一個有關涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題但是如果不涉及機密的範疇的話我們現在應該都會立即以新聞稿來澄清映出這叫馬上來做澄清不要讓他去發酵\n625896\t651024\t但是有一些相關的商源、機敏資訊等等的這些是受法規的約束的我們可能有些部分是也沒辦法對溝通所以有些部分會覺得那個啞巴吃黃蓮你沒有辦法去做解釋會嗎?會有這種狀況嗎?因為我們要避免遭有些人刺探或禽獸啦所以有些部分還是要保持他的機敏性這樣子\n651604\t663949\t那對於像這個很多大部分都是來自於中國的這個認知作戰中國出產國內的這個協力者然後接力來做這個流傳像這個的話我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎沒有辦法來做處理嗎\n667090\t684658\t像下架啦 或是有一些行者我想我們現在已經跟海軍有做過一個密切討論以後會就是我們現在就區隔就是說什麼是機敏不是機敏今天的部分我們把它在這個內容上我還是沒辦法丟掉的但\n686152\t704287\t有涉及到相關這些假訊息的部分我們在不涉及精明的環境之內我們迅速的予以回應來防堵這些認知作戰的作為這樣子所以在國立的這個協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎如果他們就是這樣子把這假消息給流傳出去我們一點辦法都沒有嗎\n705659\t722568\t我想立即的這個回應是我們現在我們只能做到回應所以他們這些人在整個流傳其實也都沒有任何的這些假訊息如果涉及有違法的問題的話這個由相關的執法機關來進行應出有要補充的嗎\n727731\t755064\t委員好 我是光部發言人針對這個議題我們確實是非常關注因為所有認知作戰操作基本上它都是有跡可循的如同委員所說的那麼如何去綿密的監控它認知作戰發展的一個趨勢它對方放假訊息的一個方向以及它攻擊的重點這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項我們從這個點來著手然後針對它的攻擊的內容來去做一個澄清甚至在必要的時候\n755564\t761034\t以事先以主动的这种说明的作为来去破解他的一个攻击以上报告\n761738\t789984\tOK 因為我是覺得說像台灣是應該是全世界受到錯腳消息攻擊最多的這個國家像這個部分的話我是希望說各個部會都能夠強硬起來尤其我是覺得一直都沒有聽到他這樣說他這些人到底有沒有刑罰的這個部分就變成說這些人覺得我去流傳這個東西反正我打擊的國家我打擊的台灣好像也沒有關係所以這個部分我想這個部分大家應該要繼續來做這個加強跟努力OK 好 以上謝謝是 應該要加強\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長市長 羅威恩好部長好 部長 潛艦國造從一開始到現在可以說是這個錯假消息不斷甚至還有人會問說造艦這麼的困難為什麼要自己來造呢為什麼不直接向國外來購買呢我們來看這個圖\n我們造劍確實是非常的困難可是我們發現要跟國衛來構置這個潛艦更是艱困重重我們可以看到其實從這30年來我們根本買不到這個潛艦\n所以其實我們從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記裡面可以看到其實從1930年代以來我們多次的向國外購買潛艦可是始終是遭遇到阻礙\n像過去我們曾經跟德國、英國、義大利甚至美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙都曾經要來接洽、要構置這個潛艦可是就是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的從這個簡報上面我們看到這個紅色的大叉叉其實就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的這個部分目前僅有少數的幾次\n1964年我们跟意大利购得了海舱艇队1969年同样向意大利购得海角跟海龙号这三艘潜舰其实都已经年代久远也都已经除役了1973年美国移交的海师号跟海豹号虽然高龄52岁了可是还在服役当中1987年荷兰我们取得了舰龙级的海龙号跟海虎号\n那這之後的三十年我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他的國家購買新造或是二手的這個潛艦其實都因為國際的壓力所以都沒有辦法成功那就是要面對現實我們也有國防的這個需求所以我們沒有選擇我們只好自己來建造這個潛艦那從有到無其實要培養這個自主設計跟這個製造的能力我們必須要確保這個水下的戰力不再受制於人\n那為什麼我說的這麼一大片那除了就是說為什麼我們要自己來建造這個潛艦那再來還有一點就是說我剛有提到我們從有到無培養這個自主設計跟製造這個能力其實這是一個很困難的一個過程那當然我有看到就是說我們有排定了這個之前的這個預期的這個進程我想請問部長我們當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀\n我們本來是2025年4月要進入這個SA7的這個階段進入海測的階段2025年9月完成海測2025年11月要完成這個交界我們是從有到無整個過程我們是說很多因素我們都沒有考慮到\n比如说刚刚我有看到你们在报告的时候有提到比如说像主机自动充电功能验证设计多方不同厂家共同配合施作协调厂家排程制增加测试的时间像这些多重的因素当初我们在设定这个预期的进程的时候是都没有考虑进来\n4月份才要進入海測階段我們11月份就要完成交建當初我們設定這個進程是不是太過於樂觀其實像這個我們要協調不同的廠家共同配合不同廠家可能都是來自於國外嘛敲大家的時間然後就會增加這個測試的這個當然會增加這個測試的時間\n所以現在大家都說我們這個交建延宕是不是我們當初在預期進程的這個設定其實就出了這個問題請問部長\n我想主要就是說我們在整個建造的過程當中就有關相關的裝備也好或者是這些原廠的技協要來協助也好可能他們沒有辦法說完全第一時間就能夠來配合所以在這個部分確實在這個建造的過程當中顯示我們這個時程的這個安排沒有辦法\n如果我們所想像的說我們說誰叫誰到那確實是在這個部分上面面臨了一些失誠的延宕\n所以說嘛 所以我們在設定這個預測我有看你們這個流程這整8個月從海測到交建只有8個月的時間實際上你看我們的進程我們6月份才進入海測然後10月13號才進行完成三次的這個浮航測試那到底潛航這個潛水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成目前都還沒有時間表嘛\n對不對我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題因為還有很多都還有未確定的因素存在對不對我們現在後續就是說要以潛水潛航的這個標準來再進一步進行這一個無航測試\n那麼針對這個浮航測試如果能夠通過我們就會再進行潛水潛航的測試一切以安全跟品質為上\n對 我們理解 我們都可以知道說安全無虞還有這個品質確保這是最首要的只是說當初給的師承可能太於樂觀所以2025年11月要交建我想已經不可能了那我再請教部長像之前我們應該可以理解其實有很多的國家其實就算是有過經驗的這個國家他們在這個造建整個過程過程平均\n從一開始到交艦都是花了多少年的時間 平均大約我們這個時程會太快了一點我們當初訂定 我們是五年五年多嘛 對不對 其他的國家呢到底照一部艦艇到其他國家到底要花多少時間\n我想主要是要看它是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的如果是首次的話以其他國家的經驗來看的話大概都要耗時7年到甚至有高達16年7年到16年我們怎麼會有勇氣就是5年多我們就要交件了\n所以委員剛的指教我想是對的我們確實在建造的時程的安排上面沒有去理解現實上面事實上會面臨很多困難尤其是我們的國情所面臨的一些\n裝備上的籌貨啦或者是一些原廠機械人員來安排這些等等都\n在這個海軍在報告過程當中可以看到這樣子的一些困難在時間上面在籌貨裝備的這個部分上面我在想籌貨裝備這部分應該也受到很大的壓力吧是不是所以我們都要有很多的備援備援的一種思考就是說如果面臨到困難我們可以轉個\n請求其他的這個籌貨的途徑這樣子對啊 其他的國家7到16年才完成一艘潛艦那我們卻是要短短的時間說我們有能力完成所以當初這個時程的訂定其實就是錯誤的那再來還有一點我也有看到其他的國家那其他計算是有造艦經驗的國家你看一下瑞典 美國\n現在瑞典它這個布萊金額級的潛艦它因為新技術跟這個成本的這個關係你看它本來是2024年要交艦可是可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的像美國的維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是它可能會在延後\n兩到三年像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦也是預定是2027年10月要交建可能延後一年或一年多的這個時間所以到底我們本來是11月要交建那可能會不會會類似他們這樣子可能一年的一年一年多有可能嗎我們會盡量努力要盡快我想我們歷經了很多挑戰\n我想確實是有落後在海上測試那我覺得還是不過還是以安全無虞平直確保為首要啦這點還是必須是還是要按部就本來做就是說我們當初定的時程造成後續有很多的留言就是說我們可能沒辦法完成很多的這個這個謠言出現了打擊了這個\n國人這個信心我想這個部分可能之後我們真的是要非常的注意這個樂觀的這個狀態好那再來的話我想請教一下那從六月份開始呢有大量的簡體字的賬號然後製作圖卡跟這個短影那集中操作中我們的錢就是不會錢啊我們的這個這個挺體呢其實是變形的那我們很知道的都是來自中國的很典型的認知作戰的這個手法\n那像這種假消息在外流傳那我們有沒有跟速發部跟其他的機構就是機關合作對於這個假消息我們要如何去澄清那如何去下架這些假消息尤其是我們這個前件涉及這個機密有很多部分你無法公開澄清那我們要如何處理呢很多東西你不能說嘛\n確實是有這樣子的一個有關涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題但是如果不涉及機密的範疇的話我們現在應該都會立即以新聞稿來澄清映出這叫馬上來做澄清不要讓他去發酵\n但是有一些相關的商源、機敏資訊等等的這些是受法規的約束的我們可能有些部分是也沒辦法對溝通所以有些部分會覺得那個啞巴吃黃蓮你沒有辦法去做解釋會嗎?會有這種狀況嗎?因為我們要避免遭有些人刺探或禽獸啦所以有些部分還是要保持他的機敏性這樣子\n那對於像這個很多大部分都是來自於中國的這個認知作戰中國出產國內的這個協力者然後接力來做這個流傳像這個的話我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎沒有辦法來做處理嗎\n像下架啦 或是有一些行者我想我們現在已經跟海軍有做過一個密切討論以後會就是我們現在就區隔就是說什麼是機敏不是機敏今天的部分我們把它在這個內容上我還是沒辦法丟掉的但\n有涉及到相關這些假訊息的部分我們在不涉及精明的環境之內我們迅速的予以回應來防堵這些認知作戰的作為這樣子所以在國立的這個協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎如果他們就是這樣子把這假消息給流傳出去我們一點辦法都沒有嗎\n我想立即的這個回應是我們現在我們只能做到回應所以他們這些人在整個流傳其實也都沒有任何的這些假訊息如果涉及有違法的問題的話這個由相關的執法機關來進行應出有要補充的嗎\n委員好 我是光部發言人針對這個議題我們確實是非常關注因為所有認知作戰操作基本上它都是有跡可循的如同委員所說的那麼如何去綿密的監控它認知作戰發展的一個趨勢它對方放假訊息的一個方向以及它攻擊的重點這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項我們從這個點來著手然後針對它的攻擊的內容來去做一個澄清甚至在必要的時候\n以事先以主动的这种说明的作为来去破解他的一个攻击以上报告\nOK 因為我是覺得說像台灣是應該是全世界受到錯腳消息攻擊最多的這個國家像這個部分的話我是希望說各個部會都能夠強硬起來尤其我是覺得一直都沒有聽到他這樣說他這些人到底有沒有刑罰的這個部分就變成說這些人覺得我去流傳這個東西反正我打擊的國家我打擊的台灣好像也沒有關係所以這個部分我想這個部分大家應該要繼續來做這個加強跟努力OK 好 以上謝謝是 應該要加強\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:03.051\n謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長市長羅威恩好部長好部長潛艦國造從一開始到現在可以說是這個錯假消息不斷甚至還有人會問說造艦這麼的困難為什麼要自己來造呢為什麼不直接向國外來購買呢我們來看這個圖\n\n00:28.826 --> 00:31.348\n我們造劍確實是非常的困難可是我們發現要跟國衛來構置這個潛艦更是艱困重重我們可以看到其實從這30年來我們根本買不到這個潛艦\n\n00:47.703 --> 00:48.824\n所以其實我們從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記裡面可以看到其實從1930年代以來我們多次的向國外購買潛艦可是始終是遭遇到阻礙\n\n01:04.497 --> 01:08.600\n像過去我們曾經跟德國、英國、義大利甚至美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙都曾經要來接洽、要構置這個潛艦可是就是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的從這個簡報上面我們看到這個紅色的大叉叉其實就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的這個部分目前僅有少數的幾次\n\n01:34.997 --> 01:59.773\n1964年我们跟意大利购得了海舱艇队1969年同样向意大利购得海角跟海龙号这三艘潜舰其实都已经年代久远也都已经除役了1973年美国移交的海师号跟海豹号虽然高龄52岁了可是还在服役当中1987年荷兰我们取得了舰龙级的海龙号跟海虎号\n\n02:00.934 --> 02:14.718\n那這之後的三十年我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他的國家購買新造或是二手的這個潛艦其實都因為國際的壓力所以都沒有辦法成功那就是要面對現實我們也有國防的這個需求所以我們沒有選擇我們只好自己來建造這個潛艦那從有到無其實要培養這個自主設計跟這個製造的能力我們必須要確保這個水下的戰力不再受制於人\n\n02:29.122 --> 02:31.803\n那為什麼我說的這麼一大片那除了就是說為什麼我們要自己來建造這個潛艦那再來還有一點就是說我剛有提到我們從有到無培養這個自主設計跟製造這個能力其實這是一個很困難的一個過程那當然我有看到就是說我們有排定了這個之前的這個預期的這個進程我想請問部長我們當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀\n\n02:56.974 --> 03:13.866\n我們本來是2025年4月要進入這個SA7的這個階段進入海測的階段2025年9月完成海測2025年11月要完成這個交界我們是從有到無整個過程我們是說很多因素我們都沒有考慮到\n\n03:15.447 --> 03:32.586\n比如说刚刚我有看到你们在报告的时候有提到比如说像主机自动充电功能验证设计多方不同厂家共同配合施作协调厂家排程制增加测试的时间像这些多重的因素当初我们在设定这个预期的进程的时候是都没有考虑进来\n\n03:33.714 --> 03:51.968\n4月份才要進入海測階段我們11月份就要完成交建當初我們設定這個進程是不是太過於樂觀其實像這個我們要協調不同的廠家共同配合不同廠家可能都是來自於國外嘛敲大家的時間然後就會增加這個測試的這個當然會增加這個測試的時間\n\n03:55.370 --> 04:03.142\n所以現在大家都說我們這個交建延宕是不是我們當初在預期進程的這個設定其實就出了這個問題請問部長\n\n04:06.563 --> 04:35.193\n我想主要就是說我們在整個建造的過程當中就有關相關的裝備也好或者是這些原廠的技協要來協助也好可能他們沒有辦法說完全第一時間就能夠來配合所以在這個部分確實在這個建造的過程當中顯示我們這個時程的這個安排沒有辦法\n\n04:36.033 --> 04:45.233\n如果我們所想像的說我們說誰叫誰到那確實是在這個部分上面面臨了一些失誠的延宕\n\n04:46.781 --> 05:10.126\n所以說嘛所以我們在設定這個預測我有看你們這個流程這整8個月從海測到交建只有8個月的時間實際上你看我們的進程我們6月份才進入海測然後10月13號才進行完成三次的這個浮航測試那到底潛航這個潛水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成目前都還沒有時間表嘛\n\n05:11.026 --> 05:27.818\n對不對我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題因為還有很多都還有未確定的因素存在對不對我們現在後續就是說要以潛水潛航的這個標準來再進一步進行這一個無航測試\n\n05:29.099 --> 05:41.542\n那麼針對這個浮航測試如果能夠通過我們就會再進行潛水潛航的測試一切以安全跟品質為上\n\n05:42.373 --> 05:56.619\n對我們理解我們都可以知道說安全無虞還有這個品質確保這是最首要的只是說當初給的師承可能太於樂觀所以2025年11月要交建我想已經不可能了那我再請教部長像之前我們應該可以理解其實有很多的國家其實就算是有過經驗的這個國家他們在這個造建整個過程過程平均\n\n06:08.643 --> 06:22.793\n從一開始到交艦都是花了多少年的時間平均大約我們這個時程會太快了一點我們當初訂定我們是五年五年多嘛對不對其他的國家呢到底照一部艦艇到其他國家到底要花多少時間\n\n06:23.633 --> 06:45.314\n我想主要是要看它是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的如果是首次的話以其他國家的經驗來看的話大概都要耗時7年到甚至有高達16年7年到16年我們怎麼會有勇氣就是5年多我們就要交件了\n\n06:46.098 --> 07:08.865\n所以委員剛的指教我想是對的我們確實在建造的時程的安排上面沒有去理解現實上面事實上會面臨很多困難尤其是我們的國情所面臨的一些\n\n07:10.826 --> 07:18.078\n裝備上的籌貨啦或者是一些原廠機械人員來安排這些等等都\n\n07:20.667 --> 07:45.233\n在這個海軍在報告過程當中可以看到這樣子的一些困難在時間上面在籌貨裝備的這個部分上面我在想籌貨裝備這部分應該也受到很大的壓力吧是不是所以我們都要有很多的備援備援的一種思考就是說如果面臨到困難我們可以轉個\n\n07:47.453 --> 08:06.859\n請求其他的這個籌貨的途徑這樣子對啊其他的國家7到16年才完成一艘潛艦那我們卻是要短短的時間說我們有能力完成所以當初這個時程的訂定其實就是錯誤的那再來還有一點我也有看到其他的國家那其他計算是有造艦經驗的國家你看一下瑞典美國\n\n08:07.799 --> 08:27.990\n現在瑞典它這個布萊金額級的潛艦它因為新技術跟這個成本的這個關係你看它本來是2024年要交艦可是可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的像美國的維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是它可能會在延後\n\n08:29.551 --> 08:50.861\n兩到三年像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦也是預定是2027年10月要交建可能延後一年或一年多的這個時間所以到底我們本來是11月要交建那可能會不會會類似他們這樣子可能一年的一年一年多有可能嗎我們會盡量努力要盡快我想我們歷經了很多挑戰\n\n08:58.840 --> 09:20.717\n我想確實是有落後在海上測試那我覺得還是不過還是以安全無虞平直確保為首要啦這點還是必須是還是要按部就本來做就是說我們當初定的時程造成後續有很多的留言就是說我們可能沒辦法完成很多的這個這個謠言出現了打擊了這個\n\n09:21.798 --> 09:44.911\n國人這個信心我想這個部分可能之後我們真的是要非常的注意這個樂觀的這個狀態好那再來的話我想請教一下那從六月份開始呢有大量的簡體字的賬號然後製作圖卡跟這個短影那集中操作中我們的錢就是不會錢啊我們的這個這個挺體呢其實是變形的那我們很知道的都是來自中國的很典型的認知作戰的這個手法\n\n09:45.291 --> 10:03.424\n那像這種假消息在外流傳那我們有沒有跟速發部跟其他的機構就是機關合作對於這個假消息我們要如何去澄清那如何去下架這些假消息尤其是我們這個前件涉及這個機密有很多部分你無法公開澄清那我們要如何處理呢很多東西你不能說嘛\n\n10:06.326 --> 10:23.615\n確實是有這樣子的一個有關涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題但是如果不涉及機密的範疇的話我們現在應該都會立即以新聞稿來澄清映出這叫馬上來做澄清不要讓他去發酵\n\n10:25.896 --> 10:51.024\n但是有一些相關的商源、機敏資訊等等的這些是受法規的約束的我們可能有些部分是也沒辦法對溝通所以有些部分會覺得那個啞巴吃黃蓮你沒有辦法去做解釋會嗎?會有這種狀況嗎?因為我們要避免遭有些人刺探或禽獸啦所以有些部分還是要保持他的機敏性這樣子\n\n10:51.604 --> 11:03.949\n那對於像這個很多大部分都是來自於中國的這個認知作戰中國出產國內的這個協力者然後接力來做這個流傳像這個的話我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎沒有辦法來做處理嗎\n\n11:07.090 --> 11:24.658\n像下架啦或是有一些行者我想我們現在已經跟海軍有做過一個密切討論以後會就是我們現在就區隔就是說什麼是機敏不是機敏今天的部分我們把它在這個內容上我還是沒辦法丟掉的但\n\n11:26.152 --> 11:44.287\n有涉及到相關這些假訊息的部分我們在不涉及精明的環境之內我們迅速的予以回應來防堵這些認知作戰的作為這樣子所以在國立的這個協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎如果他們就是這樣子把這假消息給流傳出去我們一點辦法都沒有嗎\n\n11:45.659 --> 12:02.568\n我想立即的這個回應是我們現在我們只能做到回應所以他們這些人在整個流傳其實也都沒有任何的這些假訊息如果涉及有違法的問題的話這個由相關的執法機關來進行應出有要補充的嗎\n\n12:07.731 --> 12:35.064\n委員好我是光部發言人針對這個議題我們確實是非常關注因為所有認知作戰操作基本上它都是有跡可循的如同委員所說的那麼如何去綿密的監控它認知作戰發展的一個趨勢它對方放假訊息的一個方向以及它攻擊的重點這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項我們從這個點來著手然後針對它的攻擊的內容來去做一個澄清甚至在必要的時候\n\n12:35.564 --> 12:41.034\n以事先以主动的这种说明的作为来去破解他的一个攻击以上报告\n\n12:41.738 --> 13:09.984\nOK因為我是覺得說像台灣是應該是全世界受到錯腳消息攻擊最多的這個國家像這個部分的話我是希望說各個部會都能夠強硬起來尤其我是覺得一直都沒有聽到他這樣說他這些人到底有沒有刑罰的這個部分就變成說這些人覺得我去流傳這個東西反正我打擊的國家我打擊的台灣好像也沒有關係所以這個部分我想這個部分大家應該要繼續來做這個加強跟努力OK好以上謝謝是應該要加強\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":3.051,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長市長 羅威恩好部長好 部長 潛艦國造從一開始到現在可以說是這個錯假消息不斷甚至還有人會問說造艦這麼的困難為什麼要自己來造呢為什麼不直接向國外來購買呢我們來看這個圖"},{"start":28.826,"end":31.348,"text":"我們造劍確實是非常的困難可是我們發現要跟國衛來構置這個潛艦更是艱困重重我們可以看到其實從這30年來我們根本買不到這個潛艦"},{"start":47.703,"end":48.824,"text":"所以其實我們從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記裡面可以看到其實從1930年代以來我們多次的向國外購買潛艦可是始終是遭遇到阻礙"},{"start":64.497,"end":68.6,"text":"像過去我們曾經跟德國、英國、義大利甚至美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙都曾經要來接洽、要構置這個潛艦可是就是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的從這個簡報上面我們看到這個紅色的大叉叉其實就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的這個部分目前僅有少數的幾次"},{"start":94.997,"end":119.773,"text":"1964年我们跟意大利购得了海舱艇队1969年同样向意大利购得海角跟海龙号这三艘潜舰其实都已经年代久远也都已经除役了1973年美国移交的海师号跟海豹号虽然高龄52岁了可是还在服役当中1987年荷兰我们取得了舰龙级的海龙号跟海虎号"},{"start":120.934,"end":134.718,"text":"那這之後的三十年我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他的國家購買新造或是二手的這個潛艦其實都因為國際的壓力所以都沒有辦法成功那就是要面對現實我們也有國防的這個需求所以我們沒有選擇我們只好自己來建造這個潛艦那從有到無其實要培養這個自主設計跟這個製造的能力我們必須要確保這個水下的戰力不再受制於人"},{"start":149.122,"end":151.803,"text":"那為什麼我說的這麼一大片那除了就是說為什麼我們要自己來建造這個潛艦那再來還有一點就是說我剛有提到我們從有到無培養這個自主設計跟製造這個能力其實這是一個很困難的一個過程那當然我有看到就是說我們有排定了這個之前的這個預期的這個進程我想請問部長我們當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀"},{"start":176.974,"end":193.866,"text":"我們本來是2025年4月要進入這個SA7的這個階段進入海測的階段2025年9月完成海測2025年11月要完成這個交界我們是從有到無整個過程我們是說很多因素我們都沒有考慮到"},{"start":195.447,"end":212.586,"text":"比如说刚刚我有看到你们在报告的时候有提到比如说像主机自动充电功能验证设计多方不同厂家共同配合施作协调厂家排程制增加测试的时间像这些多重的因素当初我们在设定这个预期的进程的时候是都没有考虑进来"},{"start":213.714,"end":231.968,"text":"4月份才要進入海測階段我們11月份就要完成交建當初我們設定這個進程是不是太過於樂觀其實像這個我們要協調不同的廠家共同配合不同廠家可能都是來自於國外嘛敲大家的時間然後就會增加這個測試的這個當然會增加這個測試的時間"},{"start":235.37,"end":243.142,"text":"所以現在大家都說我們這個交建延宕是不是我們當初在預期進程的這個設定其實就出了這個問題請問部長"},{"start":246.563,"end":275.193,"text":"我想主要就是說我們在整個建造的過程當中就有關相關的裝備也好或者是這些原廠的技協要來協助也好可能他們沒有辦法說完全第一時間就能夠來配合所以在這個部分確實在這個建造的過程當中顯示我們這個時程的這個安排沒有辦法"},{"start":276.033,"end":285.233,"text":"如果我們所想像的說我們說誰叫誰到那確實是在這個部分上面面臨了一些失誠的延宕"},{"start":286.781,"end":310.126,"text":"所以說嘛 所以我們在設定這個預測我有看你們這個流程這整8個月從海測到交建只有8個月的時間實際上你看我們的進程我們6月份才進入海測然後10月13號才進行完成三次的這個浮航測試那到底潛航這個潛水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成目前都還沒有時間表嘛"},{"start":311.026,"end":327.818,"text":"對不對我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題因為還有很多都還有未確定的因素存在對不對我們現在後續就是說要以潛水潛航的這個標準來再進一步進行這一個無航測試"},{"start":329.099,"end":341.542,"text":"那麼針對這個浮航測試如果能夠通過我們就會再進行潛水潛航的測試一切以安全跟品質為上"},{"start":342.373,"end":356.619,"text":"對 我們理解 我們都可以知道說安全無虞還有這個品質確保這是最首要的只是說當初給的師承可能太於樂觀所以2025年11月要交建我想已經不可能了那我再請教部長像之前我們應該可以理解其實有很多的國家其實就算是有過經驗的這個國家他們在這個造建整個過程過程平均"},{"start":368.643,"end":382.793,"text":"從一開始到交艦都是花了多少年的時間 平均大約我們這個時程會太快了一點我們當初訂定 我們是五年五年多嘛 對不對 其他的國家呢到底照一部艦艇到其他國家到底要花多少時間"},{"start":383.633,"end":405.314,"text":"我想主要是要看它是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的如果是首次的話以其他國家的經驗來看的話大概都要耗時7年到甚至有高達16年7年到16年我們怎麼會有勇氣就是5年多我們就要交件了"},{"start":406.098,"end":428.865,"text":"所以委員剛的指教我想是對的我們確實在建造的時程的安排上面沒有去理解現實上面事實上會面臨很多困難尤其是我們的國情所面臨的一些"},{"start":430.826,"end":438.078,"text":"裝備上的籌貨啦或者是一些原廠機械人員來安排這些等等都"},{"start":440.667,"end":465.233,"text":"在這個海軍在報告過程當中可以看到這樣子的一些困難在時間上面在籌貨裝備的這個部分上面我在想籌貨裝備這部分應該也受到很大的壓力吧是不是所以我們都要有很多的備援備援的一種思考就是說如果面臨到困難我們可以轉個"},{"start":467.453,"end":486.859,"text":"請求其他的這個籌貨的途徑這樣子對啊 其他的國家7到16年才完成一艘潛艦那我們卻是要短短的時間說我們有能力完成所以當初這個時程的訂定其實就是錯誤的那再來還有一點我也有看到其他的國家那其他計算是有造艦經驗的國家你看一下瑞典 美國"},{"start":487.799,"end":507.99,"text":"現在瑞典它這個布萊金額級的潛艦它因為新技術跟這個成本的這個關係你看它本來是2024年要交艦可是可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的像美國的維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是它可能會在延後"},{"start":509.551,"end":530.861,"text":"兩到三年像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦也是預定是2027年10月要交建可能延後一年或一年多的這個時間所以到底我們本來是11月要交建那可能會不會會類似他們這樣子可能一年的一年一年多有可能嗎我們會盡量努力要盡快我想我們歷經了很多挑戰"},{"start":538.84,"end":560.717,"text":"我想確實是有落後在海上測試那我覺得還是不過還是以安全無虞平直確保為首要啦這點還是必須是還是要按部就本來做就是說我們當初定的時程造成後續有很多的留言就是說我們可能沒辦法完成很多的這個這個謠言出現了打擊了這個"},{"start":561.798,"end":584.911,"text":"國人這個信心我想這個部分可能之後我們真的是要非常的注意這個樂觀的這個狀態好那再來的話我想請教一下那從六月份開始呢有大量的簡體字的賬號然後製作圖卡跟這個短影那集中操作中我們的錢就是不會錢啊我們的這個這個挺體呢其實是變形的那我們很知道的都是來自中國的很典型的認知作戰的這個手法"},{"start":585.291,"end":603.424,"text":"那像這種假消息在外流傳那我們有沒有跟速發部跟其他的機構就是機關合作對於這個假消息我們要如何去澄清那如何去下架這些假消息尤其是我們這個前件涉及這個機密有很多部分你無法公開澄清那我們要如何處理呢很多東西你不能說嘛"},{"start":606.326,"end":623.615,"text":"確實是有這樣子的一個有關涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題但是如果不涉及機密的範疇的話我們現在應該都會立即以新聞稿來澄清映出這叫馬上來做澄清不要讓他去發酵"},{"start":625.896,"end":651.024,"text":"但是有一些相關的商源、機敏資訊等等的這些是受法規的約束的我們可能有些部分是也沒辦法對溝通所以有些部分會覺得那個啞巴吃黃蓮你沒有辦法去做解釋會嗎?會有這種狀況嗎?因為我們要避免遭有些人刺探或禽獸啦所以有些部分還是要保持他的機敏性這樣子"},{"start":651.604,"end":663.949,"text":"那對於像這個很多大部分都是來自於中國的這個認知作戰中國出產國內的這個協力者然後接力來做這個流傳像這個的話我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎沒有辦法來做處理嗎"},{"start":667.09,"end":684.658,"text":"像下架啦 或是有一些行者我想我們現在已經跟海軍有做過一個密切討論以後會就是我們現在就區隔就是說什麼是機敏不是機敏今天的部分我們把它在這個內容上我還是沒辦法丟掉的但"},{"start":686.152,"end":704.287,"text":"有涉及到相關這些假訊息的部分我們在不涉及精明的環境之內我們迅速的予以回應來防堵這些認知作戰的作為這樣子所以在國立的這個協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎如果他們就是這樣子把這假消息給流傳出去我們一點辦法都沒有嗎"},{"start":705.659,"end":722.568,"text":"我想立即的這個回應是我們現在我們只能做到回應所以他們這些人在整個流傳其實也都沒有任何的這些假訊息如果涉及有違法的問題的話這個由相關的執法機關來進行應出有要補充的嗎"},{"start":727.731,"end":755.064,"text":"委員好 我是光部發言人針對這個議題我們確實是非常關注因為所有認知作戰操作基本上它都是有跡可循的如同委員所說的那麼如何去綿密的監控它認知作戰發展的一個趨勢它對方放假訊息的一個方向以及它攻擊的重點這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項我們從這個點來著手然後針對它的攻擊的內容來去做一個澄清甚至在必要的時候"},{"start":755.564,"end":761.034,"text":"以事先以主动的这种说明的作为来去破解他的一个攻击以上报告"},{"start":761.738,"end":789.984,"text":"OK 因為我是覺得說像台灣是應該是全世界受到錯腳消息攻擊最多的這個國家像這個部分的話我是希望說各個部會都能夠強硬起來尤其我是覺得一直都沒有聽到他這樣說他這些人到底有沒有刑罰的這個部分就變成說這些人覺得我去流傳這個東西反正我打擊的國家我打擊的台灣好像也沒有關係所以這個部分我想這個部分大家應該要繼續來做這個加強跟努力OK 好 以上謝謝是 應該要加強"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":94,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時13分）謝謝主席。有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。潛艦國造從一開始到現在，可以說是錯假消息不斷，甚至還有人會問，造艦這麼的困難，為什麼要自己來造呢？為什麼不直接向國外購買呢？","我們來看這個圖，造艦確實非常困難，可是我們發現要跟國外購置潛艦，更是艱困重重。這30年來我們根本買不到潛艦，從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記可以看到，自1930年代以來，我們曾多次向國外購買潛艦，可是始終遭遇到阻礙。過去我們跟德國、英國、義大利，甚至跟美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙等等，都曾經接洽購置潛艦，可是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力，所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的。","從這個簡報上面可以看到一些紅色大叉叉，就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的部分，目前只有少數的幾次，比如說1964年我們跟義大利購得海昌艇隊；1969年同樣地，也向義大利購得海蛟跟海龍號，以上這三艘潛艦都已經年代久遠，也都已經除役了；1973年美國移交的海獅號跟海豹號，雖然高齡52歲了，可是還在服役當中；1987年我們向荷蘭取得了劍龍級的海龍號跟海虎號。之後的30年，我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他國家購買新造或是二手的潛艦，都因為國際的壓力，所以都沒有辦法成功。因此，面對現實，加上我們也有國防的需求，在沒有選擇的情況下，只好自己來建造潛艦，從無到有培養自主設計跟製造的能力，我們必須確保水下戰力不再受制於人。","為什麼我會說得這麼一大篇？除了說明為什麼我們要自己建造潛艦外，再來還有一點，剛剛有提到從無到有培養自主設計跟製造的能力，其實是一個很困難的過程，當然我也看到，我們有排定預期的進程。我想請問部長，當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀？本來是2025年4月要進入SAT海測的階段；2025年9月完成海測；2025年11月完成交艦，從無到有的整個過程，有很多因素我們可能都沒有考慮到，比如說剛剛你們在報告的時候有提到，像主機自動充電功能驗證涉及多方不同廠家共同配合施作，協調廠家排程致增加測試時間，像這些多重的因素，當初我們在設定預期進程的時候，是不是都沒有考慮進來？短短的時間內，4月份才要進入海測階段，11月份就要完成交艦，當初我們設定這個進程，是不是太過於樂觀？其實像協調不同廠家共同配合施作，這些廠家可能都是來自於國外，若要敲定大家的時間，當然會增加測試的時間。現在大家都在說交艦延宕，是不是我們當初在預期進程的設定上其實就出了問題？請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：主要是我們在整個建造的過程當中，就相關的裝備也好，或者是這些原廠技協要來協助也好，可能他們沒有辦法完全在第一時間就來配合，所以在這個部分，確實在建造的過程當中，顯示在時程的安排上沒有辦法如我們所想像的可以隨叫隨到，確實在這個部分上面面臨了一些時程的延宕。"],["羅委員美玲：在設定預期進程上，從海測到交艦只有8個月的時間；但實際進程上，我們6月份才進入海測，10月13日才完成三次浮航測試，到底淺水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成，目前都還沒有時間表，對不對？我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題，因為很多都還有未確定的因素存在，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在後續就是要以能淺水潛航的標準再進一步進行浮航測試，這個浮航測試如果能夠通過，我們就會再進行淺水潛航的測試，一切以安全跟品質為上。"],["羅委員美玲：對，我們理解也都知道安全無虞還有品質確保是最首要的，只是當初給的時程可能太過於樂觀，所以2025年11月要交艦，我想已經不可能了。","我再請教部長，我們應該可以理解，其實有很多的國家，就算之前是有過經驗的國家，他們在整個造艦的過程，從一開始到交艦，平均、大約花了多少年的時間？我們訂的時程會不會太快了一點？我們當初是訂定五年多，對不對？那其他的國家呢？造一部艦艇對其他國家來說，到底要花多少時間？"],["顧部長立雄：主要是要看他是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的，如果是首次研製的話，以其他國家的經驗來看，大概都要耗時7年，甚至有的高達16年。"],["羅委員美玲：既然是7年到16年，那我們怎麼會有勇氣訂為五年多就要交艦呢？"],["顧部長立雄：所以委員剛剛的指教是對的，我們確實在建造時程安排上面，沒有去理解現實上面會面臨很多困難，尤其是我們的國情所面臨一些裝備上的籌獲，或者是一些原廠技協人員來安排等等，剛才在海軍報告過程當中都可以看到有這一些困難，包括在時間上面、在籌獲裝備上面。"],["羅委員美玲：我想在這個過程當中，籌獲裝備這部分應該有受到很大的壓力，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們都要有很多備援的一種思考，也就是說，如果面臨到困難，我們可以轉而請求其他籌獲的途徑。"],["羅委員美玲：對啊！其他的國家要7到16年才完成一艘潛艦，我們卻說在短短的時間內就有能力完成，所以當初這個時程的訂定，其實就是錯誤的。","再來還有一點，其他即使是有造艦經驗的國家，像瑞典的布萊金厄級潛艦，因為新技術跟成本的關係，本來是2024年要交艦，後來可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付，這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的；像美國維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是，可能會再延後2到3年；像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦，也是預定2027年10月要交艦，後來可能要延後一年或一年多的時間。我們本來預定11月要交艦，會不會發生類似他們這樣子的情況，可能延個一年、一年多，有可能嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會儘量努力，要儘快，畢竟我們歷經了很多挑戰，確實在海上測試有落後，我覺得還是……"],["羅委員美玲：不過還是以安全無虞、品質確保為首要，這點還是必須按部就班來做，只是說我們當初訂的時程造成後續有很多的謠言，比方說我們可能沒辦法完成等等很多的謠言就出現了，打擊了國人的信心，我想這個部分之後可能真的是要非常的注意，就是過於樂觀的部分。","好，再來我想請教一下，從6月份開始有大量的簡體字帳號製作圖卡跟短影音，集中炒作說我們的潛艦不會潛，說我們的艇體其實是變形的。我們知道這都是來自中國很典型的認知作戰手法，像這種假消息在外流傳，我們有沒有跟數發部和其他機關合作，對於假消息要如何去澄清，如何去下架這些假消息，尤其是我們潛艦涉及機密，有很多無法公開澄清的部分，那我們要如何處理呢？很多東西你不能說嘛。"],["顧部長立雄：確實是有這樣子涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題，但如果不涉及機密範疇的話，我們現在應該都會立即以新聞稿澄清應處。"],["羅委員美玲：馬上澄清，不要讓它發酵。"],["顧部長立雄：是，但有一些相關的商源、機敏資訊等等是受法規約束的，可能有些部分也沒辦法對……"],["羅委員美玲：所以有時候會覺得啞巴吃黃連，你沒有辦法去做解釋，會嗎？會有這種狀況嗎？會有一些流言……"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們要避免遭有心人士刺探或情蒐，所以有些部分還是要保持它的機敏性。"],["羅委員美玲：對於這些大部分都是來自於中國的認知作戰，中國出產，國內的協力者接力流傳，像這個的話，我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎？沒有辦法處理嗎？像是下架，或者是有一些刑責……"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在已經跟海軍有做過密切討論，現在我們主要就是區隔什麼是機敏、不是機敏，針對機敏的部分，我們在內容上面還是沒辦法對他們怎麼樣，但有涉及到相關假訊息的部分，在不涉及機敏的範圍之內，我們迅速地予以回應，防堵這些認知作戰的作為。"],["羅委員美玲：所以在國內的協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎？如果他們就是這樣子把假消息給流傳出去，我們一點辦法都沒有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想立即回應是我們……"],["羅委員美玲：現在我們只能做到回應，所以他們這些人再怎麼流傳其實也都沒有任何辦法？"],["顧部長立雄：相關的假訊息如果涉及違法的問題，由相關的執法機關來進行應處……"],["羅委員美玲：有要補充的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：你有要補充嗎？還是沒有……"],["孫主任立方：委員好。我是國防部發言人，針對這個議題，我們確實非常關注，因為所有認知作戰操作，基本上都是有跡可循的，如同委員所說，如何綿密地監控認知作戰發展的趨勢、對方放假訊息的方向以及他們攻擊的重點，這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項，我們從這點著手，針對他們攻擊的內容澄清，甚至在必要的時候以事先、主動的說明作為破解他們的攻擊，以上報告。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，我覺得臺灣應該是全世界受到錯假消息攻擊最多的國家，這個部分我希望各個部會都能夠強硬起來，因為我一直都沒聽到這些人到底有沒有刑法的責任，變成這些人覺得：我流傳這個東西，反正我打擊了國家、我打擊了臺灣好像也沒有關係。我想這部分大家應該要繼續來做加強跟努力。OK，以上謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，應該要加強。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：好，謝謝羅委員。","下面請馬文君委員就發言臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}}