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386.882, \"end\": 387.042, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 387.042, \"end\": 387.222, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 387.222, \"end\": 387.422, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 387.422, \"end\": 387.602, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 387.602, \"end\": 388.042, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 388.042, \"end\": 388.202, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 388.202, \"end\": 388.362, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 388.362, \"end\": 388.522, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 388.522, \"end\": 388.683, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 388.683, \"end\": 388.903, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 388.903, \"end\": 389.103, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 389.103, \"end\": 390.463, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 390.463, 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\"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 403.902, \"end\": 404.102, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 404.102, \"end\": 404.302, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 404.302, \"end\": 404.523, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 404.523, \"end\": 404.683, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"節\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 404.683, \"end\": 404.783, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 404.783, \"end\": 404.903, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 404.903, \"end\": 404.983, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 404.983, \"end\": 405.043, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 405.043, \"end\": 405.083, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 405.083, \"end\": 405.223, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 855.736, \"end\": 855.836, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 855.836, \"end\": 855.996, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 855.996, \"end\": 856.337, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 856.337, \"end\": 856.357, \"score\": 0.013}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,041 --> 00:00:05,705\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長海軍參謀長台船董事長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:13,643 --> 00:00:16,364\n部長好部長我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次遣件進度的一個公開的報告很重要的是因為其實我們這一艘遣件已經做好了那在現在我們已經要做測試的階段然後也受到非常多的國人的關注而且這個也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘的後續件\n\n3\n00:00:41,008 --> 00:00:52,452\n他需要動用到的這個預算所以我們希望其實可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院其實說明清楚因為這樣大家才有辦法審我想提供一個相關的資料在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長這支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的\n\n4\n00:01:06,997 --> 00:01:24,774\n報表員那個光電潛望鏡什麼時候到的其實已經之前就到什麼時候是之前時間的部分我這邊就是說我現在手上資料我要另外再去已經到那因為這個到料之後他中間有一個模組經過測試是有一些\n\n5\n00:01:25,555 --> 00:01:28,496\n沒關係參謀長因為在過去我們時時因為現在大家都說這個有什麼錯假訊息啦或者故意打擊啊或者什麼其實現在已經到這個階段已經沒有什麼打擊因為你通通做好了嘛其實暴露消息最多的是誰是我們的海軍前顧問\n\n6\n00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:57,385\n暴露消息最多的是誰台船公司還有我們的國防部其實都把有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰\n\n7\n00:02:03,916 --> 00:02:07,057\n這幾年其實宣布最多包括最近你的所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法去通過測試只有一個人知道這個很特別因為在我們的過程當中連國防部長都是兩個禮拜或者是他只知道進度總統也都是接受這樣子的報告這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些可是我們看到這一個\n\n8\n00:02:33,609 --> 00:02:35,931\n維感是今年才來的本來應該一月要來而且延後後來還延後了四個月可是我們看一下在這一個週刊那時候趙天寧委員特別對這個週刊說我們到去海倉場的時候我們看到了潛望鏡魚雷管要看什麼軍方都給我們看\n\n9\n00:03:01,893 --> 00:03:07,197\n這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題當時沸沸揚揚拿來做政治操作那時候的潛望鏡根本沒有來給我們看了什麼東西可是他居然可以公開的對\n\n10\n00:03:18,891 --> 00:03:23,174\n對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊到底誰在認知作戰到底誰在放錯假訊息這個要不要查剛剛你們說要查要不要查這是第一點所以我們今天安排公開預算是因為你都已經做好了你也不會受到干擾你來自於哪裡我想清清楚楚這是第一點另外我們現在進度比較慢\n\n11\n00:03:46,271 --> 00:03:48,914\n現在還有這些測試的問題這個我們尊重專業我們也希望大家按部就班來我們也提到安全跟他的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量今天你如果是為了滿足某些人他的好大喜功也好或者滿足他的歷史定位也好\n\n12\n00:04:06,872 --> 00:04:14,756\n或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度那一點意義都沒有因為他花的是人民納稅錢如果你今天要造遊艇你自己花錢那當然沒問題可是你要造的是武器裝備而且牽涉到所有我們海軍官兵的他們的生命安危所以安全我們要求那我想在這裡先請教一下這個對海船有沒有罰則\n\n13\n00:04:32,226 --> 00:04:34,747\n剛剛有特別提到說我們現在好像講得很樂觀我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀我們在提醒的當下反而我們會被攻擊說我們在打擊所以現在才說其他國家都有他的困難點這個我們\n\n14\n00:04:53,041 --> 00:05:06,913\n之前就認同了我想在這裡先請教部長因為部長您是法律人出身的就這個部分我們跟台船的合約如果11月他沒有辦法一約來交件的話他會受到多少的罰款每日計劃應該是我的理解應該是19萬大概他有上限嗎\n\n15\n00:05:18,602 --> 00:05:30,126\n應該是我的瞭解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範所以他就一直把這個是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告有上限就是建造款的20%20%是多少\n\n16\n00:05:34,505 --> 00:05:42,869\n百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣\n\n17\n00:05:50,964 --> 00:05:54,046\n這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會\n\n18\n00:06:17,739 --> 00:06:32,244\n對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點\n\n19\n00:06:33,755 --> 00:06:45,723\n那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些\n\n20\n00:06:49,426 --> 00:06:51,508\n那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡\n\n21\n00:07:11,984 --> 00:07:16,907\n報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的\n\n22\n00:07:42,384 --> 00:07:48,568\n報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主持裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書\n\n23\n00:08:05,506 --> 00:08:13,672\n有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點\n\n24\n00:08:35,756 --> 00:08:36,106\n你要回答\n\n25\n00:08:37,830 --> 00:08:43,315\n跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來他有保證書嗎他會有測試的報告都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書他的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話他其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們\n\n26\n00:09:06,134 --> 00:09:09,839\n公開的證明所有相關的這些主次裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎\n\n27\n00:09:23,575 --> 00:09:27,036\n我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統\n\n28\n00:09:51,845 --> 00:10:03,307\n第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎\n\n29\n00:10:18,262 --> 00:10:32,314\n這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參考長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的\n\n30\n00:10:33,595 --> 00:10:48,430\n主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證\n\n31\n00:10:53,696 --> 00:11:04,274\n這個東西是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機\n\n32\n00:11:08,733 --> 00:11:17,585\n這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機\n\n33\n00:11:23,112 --> 00:11:25,933\n不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟\n\n34\n00:11:43,078 --> 00:11:52,665\n所有的包括李宗孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的\n\n35\n00:12:06,355 --> 00:12:20,745\n或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎\n\n36\n00:12:27,521 --> 00:12:33,365\n報告委員這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的這個大廠所以他產品線很多所以我想董事長我們知道今天你如果你賣任何的你賣電池也好你賣什麼東西也好他就是有符合嘛你是要3號4號你是要幾號那很清楚他很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們\n\n37\n00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:58,542\n做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對這個是船艦用的主機你保證對因為我們他會有來源嘛對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧\n\n38\n00:13:15,972 --> 00:13:34,072\n應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機\n\n39\n00:13:34,753 --> 00:13:38,215\n因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們\n\n40\n00:14:05,181 --> 00:14:16,357\n我們回去準備一下大概多久一個時間點好不好大概一兩週左右好那就一週好不好因為你只是提供資料而已謝謝好謝謝馬偉雲的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2041\t5705\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長 海軍參謀長 台船董事長謝謝\n13643\t16364\t部長好部長我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次遣件進度的一個公開的報告很重要的是因為其實我們這一艘遣件已經做好了那在現在我們已經要做測試的階段然後也受到非常多的國人的關注而且這個也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘的後續件\n41008\t52452\t他需要動用到的這個預算所以我們希望其實可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院其實說明清楚因為這樣大家才有辦法審我想提供一個相關的資料在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長這支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的\n66997\t84774\t報表員那個光電潛望鏡什麼時候到的其實已經之前就到什麼時候是之前時間的部分我這邊就是說我現在手上資料我要另外再去已經到那因為這個到料之後他中間有一個模組經過測試是有一些\n85555\t88496\t沒關係 參謀長 因為在過去我們時時因為現在大家都說這個有什麼錯假訊息啦 或者故意打擊啊 或者什麼其實現在已經到這個階段已經沒有什麼打擊 因為你通通做好了嘛其實暴露消息最多的是誰 是我們的海軍前顧問\n108840\t117385\t暴露消息最多的是誰 台船公司還有我們的國防部 其實都把有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的 如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰\n123916\t127057\t這幾年其實宣布最多包括最近你的所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法去通過測試只有一個人知道這個很特別因為在我們的過程當中連國防部長都是兩個禮拜或者是他只知道進度總統也都是接受這樣子的報告這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些可是我們看到這一個\n153609\t155931\t維感是今年才來的本來應該一月要來而且延後後來還延後了四個月可是我們看一下在這一個週刊那時候趙天寧委員特別對這個週刊說我們到去海倉場的時候我們看到了潛望鏡魚雷管要看什麼軍方都給我們看\n181893\t187197\t這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題當時沸沸揚揚拿來做政治操作那時候的潛望鏡根本沒有來給我們看了什麼東西可是他居然可以公開的對\n198891\t203174\t對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊到底誰在認知作戰到底誰在放錯假訊息這個要不要查剛剛你們說要查要不要查這是第一點所以我們今天安排公開預算是因為你都已經做好了你也不會受到干擾你來自於哪裡我想清清楚楚這是第一點另外我們現在進度比較慢\n226271\t228914\t現在還有這些測試的問題這個我們尊重專業我們也希望大家按部就班來我們也提到安全跟他的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量今天你如果是為了滿足某些人他的好大喜功也好或者滿足他的歷史定位也好\n246872\t254756\t或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度那一點意義都沒有因為他花的是人民納稅錢如果你今天要造遊艇你自己花錢那當然沒問題可是你要造的是武器裝備而且牽涉到所有我們海軍官兵的他們的生命安危所以安全我們要求那我想在這裡先請教一下這個對海船有沒有罰則\n272226\t274747\t剛剛有特別提到說我們現在好像講得很樂觀我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀我們在提醒的當下反而我們會被攻擊說我們在打擊所以現在才說其他國家都有他的困難點這個我們\n293041\t306913\t之前就認同了我想在這裡先請教部長因為部長您是法律人出身的就這個部分我們跟台船的合約如果11月他沒有辦法一約來交件的話他會受到多少的罰款每日計劃應該是我的理解應該是19萬大概他有上限嗎\n318602\t330126\t應該是 我的瞭解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範所以他就一直把這個是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告 有上限 就是建造款的20%20%是多少\n334505\t342869\t百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣\n350964\t354046\t這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會\n377739\t392244\t對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點\n393755\t405723\t那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些\n409426\t411508\t那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡\n431984\t436907\t報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的\n462384\t468568\t報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主持裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書\n485506\t493672\t有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點\n515756\t516106\t你要回答\n517830\t523315\t跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來他有保證書嗎他會有測試的報告都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書他的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話他其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們\n546134\t549839\t公開的證明所有相關的這些主次裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎\n563575\t567036\t我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統\n591845\t603307\t第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎\n618262\t632314\t這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參考長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的\n633595\t648430\t主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證\n653696\t664274\t這個東西 是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息 不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機\n668733\t677585\t這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機\n683112\t685933\t不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟\n703078\t712665\t所有的包括李宗孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的\n726355\t740745\t或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎\n747521\t753365\t報告委員 這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的這個大廠所以他產品線很多所以我想 董事長我們知道今天你如果你賣任何的你賣電池也好 你賣什麼東西也好他就是有符合嘛你是要3號 4號 你是要幾號那很清楚 他很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們\n775620\t778542\t做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對 這個是船艦用的主機你保證對 因為我們他會有來源嘛 對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧\n795972\t814072\t應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機\n814753\t818215\t因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們\n845181\t856357\t我們回去準備一下大概多久一個時間點好不好大概一兩週左右好那就一週好不好因為你只是提供資料而已謝謝好謝謝馬偉雲的\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長 海軍參謀長 台船董事長謝謝\n部長好部長我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次遣件進度的一個公開的報告很重要的是因為其實我們這一艘遣件已經做好了那在現在我們已經要做測試的階段然後也受到非常多的國人的關注而且這個也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘的後續件\n他需要動用到的這個預算所以我們希望其實可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院其實說明清楚因為這樣大家才有辦法審我想提供一個相關的資料在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長這支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的\n報表員那個光電潛望鏡什麼時候到的其實已經之前就到什麼時候是之前時間的部分我這邊就是說我現在手上資料我要另外再去已經到那因為這個到料之後他中間有一個模組經過測試是有一些\n沒關係 參謀長 因為在過去我們時時因為現在大家都說這個有什麼錯假訊息啦 或者故意打擊啊 或者什麼其實現在已經到這個階段已經沒有什麼打擊 因為你通通做好了嘛其實暴露消息最多的是誰 是我們的海軍前顧問\n暴露消息最多的是誰 台船公司還有我們的國防部 其實都把有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的 如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰\n這幾年其實宣布最多包括最近你的所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法去通過測試只有一個人知道這個很特別因為在我們的過程當中連國防部長都是兩個禮拜或者是他只知道進度總統也都是接受這樣子的報告這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些可是我們看到這一個\n維感是今年才來的本來應該一月要來而且延後後來還延後了四個月可是我們看一下在這一個週刊那時候趙天寧委員特別對這個週刊說我們到去海倉場的時候我們看到了潛望鏡魚雷管要看什麼軍方都給我們看\n這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題當時沸沸揚揚拿來做政治操作那時候的潛望鏡根本沒有來給我們看了什麼東西可是他居然可以公開的對\n對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊到底誰在認知作戰到底誰在放錯假訊息這個要不要查剛剛你們說要查要不要查這是第一點所以我們今天安排公開預算是因為你都已經做好了你也不會受到干擾你來自於哪裡我想清清楚楚這是第一點另外我們現在進度比較慢\n現在還有這些測試的問題這個我們尊重專業我們也希望大家按部就班來我們也提到安全跟他的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量今天你如果是為了滿足某些人他的好大喜功也好或者滿足他的歷史定位也好\n或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度那一點意義都沒有因為他花的是人民納稅錢如果你今天要造遊艇你自己花錢那當然沒問題可是你要造的是武器裝備而且牽涉到所有我們海軍官兵的他們的生命安危所以安全我們要求那我想在這裡先請教一下這個對海船有沒有罰則\n剛剛有特別提到說我們現在好像講得很樂觀我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀我們在提醒的當下反而我們會被攻擊說我們在打擊所以現在才說其他國家都有他的困難點這個我們\n之前就認同了我想在這裡先請教部長因為部長您是法律人出身的就這個部分我們跟台船的合約如果11月他沒有辦法一約來交件的話他會受到多少的罰款每日計劃應該是我的理解應該是19萬大概他有上限嗎\n應該是 我的瞭解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範所以他就一直把這個是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告 有上限 就是建造款的20%20%是多少\n百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣\n這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會\n對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點\n那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些\n那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡\n報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的\n報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主持裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書\n有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點\n你要回答\n跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來他有保證書嗎他會有測試的報告都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書他的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話他其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們\n公開的證明所有相關的這些主次裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎\n我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統\n第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎\n這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參考長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的\n主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證\n這個東西 是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息 不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機\n這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機\n不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟\n所有的包括李宗孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的\n或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎\n報告委員 這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的這個大廠所以他產品線很多所以我想 董事長我們知道今天你如果你賣任何的你賣電池也好 你賣什麼東西也好他就是有符合嘛你是要3號 4號 你是要幾號那很清楚 他很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們\n做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對 這個是船艦用的主機你保證對 因為我們他會有來源嘛 對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧\n應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機\n因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們\n我們回去準備一下大概多久一個時間點好不好大概一兩週左右好那就一週好不好因為你只是提供資料而已謝謝好謝謝馬偉雲的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.041 --> 00:05.705\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長海軍參謀長台船董事長謝謝\n\n00:13.643 --> 00:16.364\n部長好部長我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次遣件進度的一個公開的報告很重要的是因為其實我們這一艘遣件已經做好了那在現在我們已經要做測試的階段然後也受到非常多的國人的關注而且這個也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘的後續件\n\n00:41.008 --> 00:52.452\n他需要動用到的這個預算所以我們希望其實可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院其實說明清楚因為這樣大家才有辦法審我想提供一個相關的資料在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長這支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的\n\n01:06.997 --> 01:24.774\n報表員那個光電潛望鏡什麼時候到的其實已經之前就到什麼時候是之前時間的部分我這邊就是說我現在手上資料我要另外再去已經到那因為這個到料之後他中間有一個模組經過測試是有一些\n\n01:25.555 --> 01:28.496\n沒關係參謀長因為在過去我們時時因為現在大家都說這個有什麼錯假訊息啦或者故意打擊啊或者什麼其實現在已經到這個階段已經沒有什麼打擊因為你通通做好了嘛其實暴露消息最多的是誰是我們的海軍前顧問\n\n01:48.840 --> 01:57.385\n暴露消息最多的是誰台船公司還有我們的國防部其實都把有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰\n\n02:03.916 --> 02:07.057\n這幾年其實宣布最多包括最近你的所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法去通過測試只有一個人知道這個很特別因為在我們的過程當中連國防部長都是兩個禮拜或者是他只知道進度總統也都是接受這樣子的報告這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些可是我們看到這一個\n\n02:33.609 --> 02:35.931\n維感是今年才來的本來應該一月要來而且延後後來還延後了四個月可是我們看一下在這一個週刊那時候趙天寧委員特別對這個週刊說我們到去海倉場的時候我們看到了潛望鏡魚雷管要看什麼軍方都給我們看\n\n03:01.893 --> 03:07.197\n這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題當時沸沸揚揚拿來做政治操作那時候的潛望鏡根本沒有來給我們看了什麼東西可是他居然可以公開的對\n\n03:18.891 --> 03:23.174\n對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊到底誰在認知作戰到底誰在放錯假訊息這個要不要查剛剛你們說要查要不要查這是第一點所以我們今天安排公開預算是因為你都已經做好了你也不會受到干擾你來自於哪裡我想清清楚楚這是第一點另外我們現在進度比較慢\n\n03:46.271 --> 03:48.914\n現在還有這些測試的問題這個我們尊重專業我們也希望大家按部就班來我們也提到安全跟他的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量今天你如果是為了滿足某些人他的好大喜功也好或者滿足他的歷史定位也好\n\n04:06.872 --> 04:14.756\n或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度那一點意義都沒有因為他花的是人民納稅錢如果你今天要造遊艇你自己花錢那當然沒問題可是你要造的是武器裝備而且牽涉到所有我們海軍官兵的他們的生命安危所以安全我們要求那我想在這裡先請教一下這個對海船有沒有罰則\n\n04:32.226 --> 04:34.747\n剛剛有特別提到說我們現在好像講得很樂觀我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀我們在提醒的當下反而我們會被攻擊說我們在打擊所以現在才說其他國家都有他的困難點這個我們\n\n04:53.041 --> 05:06.913\n之前就認同了我想在這裡先請教部長因為部長您是法律人出身的就這個部分我們跟台船的合約如果11月他沒有辦法一約來交件的話他會受到多少的罰款每日計劃應該是我的理解應該是19萬大概他有上限嗎\n\n05:18.602 --> 05:30.126\n應該是我的瞭解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範所以他就一直把這個是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告有上限就是建造款的20%20%是多少\n\n05:34.505 --> 05:42.869\n百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣\n\n05:50.964 --> 05:54.046\n這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會\n\n06:17.739 --> 06:32.244\n對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點\n\n06:33.755 --> 06:45.723\n那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些\n\n06:49.426 --> 06:51.508\n那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡\n\n07:11.984 --> 07:16.907\n報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的\n\n07:42.384 --> 07:48.568\n報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主持裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書\n\n08:05.506 --> 08:13.672\n有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點\n\n08:35.756 --> 08:36.106\n你要回答\n\n08:37.830 --> 08:43.315\n跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來他有保證書嗎他會有測試的報告都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書他的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話他其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們\n\n09:06.134 --> 09:09.839\n公開的證明所有相關的這些主次裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎\n\n09:23.575 --> 09:27.036\n我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統\n\n09:51.845 --> 10:03.307\n第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎\n\n10:18.262 --> 10:32.314\n這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參考長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的\n\n10:33.595 --> 10:48.430\n主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證\n\n10:53.696 --> 11:04.274\n這個東西是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機\n\n11:08.733 --> 11:17.585\n這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機\n\n11:23.112 --> 11:25.933\n不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟\n\n11:43.078 --> 11:52.665\n所有的包括李宗孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的\n\n12:06.355 --> 12:20.745\n或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎\n\n12:27.521 --> 12:33.365\n報告委員這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的這個大廠所以他產品線很多所以我想董事長我們知道今天你如果你賣任何的你賣電池也好你賣什麼東西也好他就是有符合嘛你是要3號4號你是要幾號那很清楚他很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們\n\n12:55.620 --> 12:58.542\n做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對這個是船艦用的主機你保證對因為我們他會有來源嘛對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧\n\n13:15.972 --> 13:34.072\n應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機\n\n13:34.753 --> 13:38.215\n因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們\n\n14:05.181 --> 14:16.357\n我們回去準備一下大概多久一個時間點好不好大概一兩週左右好那就一週好不好因為你只是提供資料而已謝謝好謝謝馬偉雲的\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.041,"end":5.705,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長 海軍參謀長 台船董事長謝謝"},{"start":13.643,"end":16.364,"text":"部長好部長我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次遣件進度的一個公開的報告很重要的是因為其實我們這一艘遣件已經做好了那在現在我們已經要做測試的階段然後也受到非常多的國人的關注而且這個也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘的後續件"},{"start":41.008,"end":52.452,"text":"他需要動用到的這個預算所以我們希望其實可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院其實說明清楚因為這樣大家才有辦法審我想提供一個相關的資料在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長這支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的"},{"start":66.997,"end":84.774,"text":"報表員那個光電潛望鏡什麼時候到的其實已經之前就到什麼時候是之前時間的部分我這邊就是說我現在手上資料我要另外再去已經到那因為這個到料之後他中間有一個模組經過測試是有一些"},{"start":85.555,"end":88.496,"text":"沒關係 參謀長 因為在過去我們時時因為現在大家都說這個有什麼錯假訊息啦 或者故意打擊啊 或者什麼其實現在已經到這個階段已經沒有什麼打擊 因為你通通做好了嘛其實暴露消息最多的是誰 是我們的海軍前顧問"},{"start":108.84,"end":117.385,"text":"暴露消息最多的是誰 台船公司還有我們的國防部 其實都把有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的 如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰"},{"start":123.916,"end":127.057,"text":"這幾年其實宣布最多包括最近你的所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法去通過測試只有一個人知道這個很特別因為在我們的過程當中連國防部長都是兩個禮拜或者是他只知道進度總統也都是接受這樣子的報告這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些可是我們看到這一個"},{"start":153.609,"end":155.931,"text":"維感是今年才來的本來應該一月要來而且延後後來還延後了四個月可是我們看一下在這一個週刊那時候趙天寧委員特別對這個週刊說我們到去海倉場的時候我們看到了潛望鏡魚雷管要看什麼軍方都給我們看"},{"start":181.893,"end":187.197,"text":"這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題當時沸沸揚揚拿來做政治操作那時候的潛望鏡根本沒有來給我們看了什麼東西可是他居然可以公開的對"},{"start":198.891,"end":203.174,"text":"對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊到底誰在認知作戰到底誰在放錯假訊息這個要不要查剛剛你們說要查要不要查這是第一點所以我們今天安排公開預算是因為你都已經做好了你也不會受到干擾你來自於哪裡我想清清楚楚這是第一點另外我們現在進度比較慢"},{"start":226.271,"end":228.914,"text":"現在還有這些測試的問題這個我們尊重專業我們也希望大家按部就班來我們也提到安全跟他的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量今天你如果是為了滿足某些人他的好大喜功也好或者滿足他的歷史定位也好"},{"start":246.872,"end":254.756,"text":"或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度那一點意義都沒有因為他花的是人民納稅錢如果你今天要造遊艇你自己花錢那當然沒問題可是你要造的是武器裝備而且牽涉到所有我們海軍官兵的他們的生命安危所以安全我們要求那我想在這裡先請教一下這個對海船有沒有罰則"},{"start":272.226,"end":274.747,"text":"剛剛有特別提到說我們現在好像講得很樂觀我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀我們在提醒的當下反而我們會被攻擊說我們在打擊所以現在才說其他國家都有他的困難點這個我們"},{"start":293.041,"end":306.913,"text":"之前就認同了我想在這裡先請教部長因為部長您是法律人出身的就這個部分我們跟台船的合約如果11月他沒有辦法一約來交件的話他會受到多少的罰款每日計劃應該是我的理解應該是19萬大概他有上限嗎"},{"start":318.602,"end":330.126,"text":"應該是 我的瞭解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範所以他就一直把這個是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告 有上限 就是建造款的20%20%是多少"},{"start":334.505,"end":342.869,"text":"百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣"},{"start":350.964,"end":354.046,"text":"這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會"},{"start":377.739,"end":392.244,"text":"對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點"},{"start":393.755,"end":405.723,"text":"那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些"},{"start":409.426,"end":411.508,"text":"那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡"},{"start":431.984,"end":436.907,"text":"報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的"},{"start":462.384,"end":468.568,"text":"報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主持裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書"},{"start":485.506,"end":493.672,"text":"有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點"},{"start":515.756,"end":516.106,"text":"你要回答"},{"start":517.83,"end":523.315,"text":"跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來他有保證書嗎他會有測試的報告都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書他的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話他其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們"},{"start":546.134,"end":549.839,"text":"公開的證明所有相關的這些主次裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎"},{"start":563.575,"end":567.036,"text":"我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統"},{"start":591.845,"end":603.307,"text":"第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎"},{"start":618.262,"end":632.314,"text":"這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參考長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的"},{"start":633.595,"end":648.43,"text":"主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證"},{"start":653.696,"end":664.274,"text":"這個東西 是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息 不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機"},{"start":668.733,"end":677.585,"text":"這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機"},{"start":683.112,"end":685.933,"text":"不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟"},{"start":703.078,"end":712.665,"text":"所有的包括李宗孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的"},{"start":726.355,"end":740.745,"text":"或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎"},{"start":747.521,"end":753.365,"text":"報告委員 這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的這個大廠所以他產品線很多所以我想 董事長我們知道今天你如果你賣任何的你賣電池也好 你賣什麼東西也好他就是有符合嘛你是要3號 4號 你是要幾號那很清楚 他很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們"},{"start":775.62,"end":778.542,"text":"做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對 這個是船艦用的主機你保證對 因為我們他會有來源嘛 對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧"},{"start":795.972,"end":814.072,"text":"應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機"},{"start":814.753,"end":818.215,"text":"因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們"},{"start":845.181,"end":856.357,"text":"我們回去準備一下大概多久一個時間點好不好大概一兩週左右好那就一週好不好因為你只是提供資料而已謝謝好謝謝馬偉雲的"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":134,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時27分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長、海軍參謀長、台船董事長。"],["主席：謝謝，部長、海軍參謀長、台船董事長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次潛艦進度的公開報告，很重要的是，其實我們這一艘潛艦已經做好了，現在已經要做測試的階段，也受到非常多國人的關注，而且這也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘後續艦需要動用到的預算，所以我們其實希望可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院說明清楚，這樣大家才有辦法審。","我想提供一個相關資料，在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長，這一支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，光電潛望鏡……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候到的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：其實之前就到了。"],["馬委員文君：之前什麼時候？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：時間的部分，我現在手上資料要另外再去整理，它已經到了，因為到料之後，它中間有一個模組，經過測試是有一些……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，參謀長，過去我們時時……因為現在大家都說有什麼錯假訊息，或者故意打擊什麼的，其實現在到了這個階段，已經沒有什麼打擊，因為你通通做好了嘛！其實暴露消息最多的是誰？是我們的海軍前顧問，暴露消息最多的是誰？台船公司還有國防部。其實有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的，如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰？這幾年其實宣布最多的，包括最近所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法通過測試，只有一個人知道，這很特別，因為在這個過程當中，連國防部長都是兩個禮拜，或者他只知道進度，總統也都是接受這樣子的報告。","這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些，可是我們看到這個桅杆是今年才來的，本來應該1月要來，後來還延後了4個月，可是我們看一下這個週刊，那時候趙天麟委員特別對週刊說：我們到海昌廠的時候，我們看到了潛望鏡、魚雷管，要看什麼軍方都給我們看。這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題，當時沸沸揚揚，拿來做政治操作，那時候潛望鏡根本沒有來，給我們看了什麼東西？可是他居然可以公開對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊，到底誰在認知作戰？到底誰在放錯假訊息？這個要不要查？剛剛你們說要查，要不要查？這是第一點。我們今天安排公開預算是因為都已經做好了，你也不會受到干擾，來自於哪裡，清清楚楚，這是第一點。","另外，我們進度比較慢，現在還有測試的問題，這我們尊重專業，我們也希望大家按部就班，也提到安全跟它的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量。今天你如果是為了滿足某些人好大喜功也好，或者滿足他的歷史定位也好，或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度，那一點意義都沒有，因為他花的是人民的納稅錢。如果你今天要造遊艇，你自己花錢那當然沒問題，可是你要造的是武器裝備，而且牽涉到所有海軍官兵的生命安危，所以我們要求安全。","我想在這裡先請教一下，這個對台船有沒有罰則？剛剛有特別提到我們現在好像講得很樂觀，我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀，我們在提醒的當下反而會被攻擊說我們在打擊，現在才說其他國家都有它的困難點，這個我們之前就認同了。我想在這裡先請教部長，因為部長是法律人出身的，就這個部分，依我們跟台船的合約，如果11月它沒有辦法依約交件的話，它會受到多少的罰款？"],["顧部長立雄：每日計罰，我的理解應該大概是19萬。"],["馬委員文君：有上限嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是……我的了解是，合約沒有上限的規範，是不是請採購室再說明一下？"],["馬委員文君：所以就一直罰？"],["趙主任亞平：向委員報告，有上限，就是建造款的20%。"],["馬委員文君：20%是多少？"],["趙主任亞平：建造款193億的20%，差不多將近40億。"],["馬委員文君：將近40億？"],["趙主任亞平：是的。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們當初簽約的內容就是這樣？"],["趙主任亞平：是的、是的。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響，我覺得可能要看整個合約，因為我看國防部簽訂的合約，其實很多都有很大的問題，我們也希望台船……因為他們也是第一次做，怎麼樣把它做好，可是不要欺騙國人，因為我們現在再回過頭來看，我們每一次都說有工檢，有沒有？都是定時召開工檢會，對不對？那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題、完全按照進度，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，整個國造潛艦分成兩個部分，建造跟測試，我們的建造是按節點，現在是因為測試的部分，的確有一些裝備在測試的時候，因為我們有驗收的責任，每發現問題衍生一些工程問題都要克服，所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題，現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些處理……"],["馬委員文君：好，我們過去工檢的過程當中，其實是沒有問題的。在這我有幾個問題，希望部長、海軍參謀長，還有海軍或者相關的單位包括台船，你們可以表示，因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明哪些裝備的來源是哪裡。其實報章雜誌報導很多，包括魚雷管是從韓國走私來的，我不知道這是真的還是假的，如果是真的，非常非常離譜，可是我們從來沒有看過國防部也好、台船也好或者相關的單位，針對這個部分去做相關的處置或調查。我想在這裡有幾個問題要請部長、參謀長還有海軍和台船做出明確的報告。譬如說，像我們所有的裝備，過去你們主次裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可，而且還有備援，就是至少都有3個來源以上，這是黃曙光前召集人講的。我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備原廠的保證書？有沒有具備保證書？這個問題，因為我們曾經接獲檢舉，有一些內部的人士說有些東西來源不明，就是它沒有合格的保證書，所以裝備到的時候就要求相關承辦人員去簽收，很多人根本不敢接下這個責任，因此有很多人離職了，這是第一點。你要回答？"],["顧主任志中：跟委員報告，所有的裝備到接收前，在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試，做過測試之後才會送來我們這邊。"],["馬委員文君：它有保證書嗎？"],["顧主任志中：它會有測試的報告。"],["馬委員文君：都會有保證書嗎？我現在要求，第一點，這些裝備有沒有保證書？它進口的來源，因為它有進入我們海關的話，其實都會有相關的程序，這一點我們要求你們公開證明，所有相關主次裝備的來源，好不好？都有合格證明，你要確認有合格證明喔！"],["顧主任志中：是，它都有所謂FAT的測試報告，符合我們要求的標準。"],["馬委員文君：測試報告跟合格證明，是和原廠保證書一樣的嗎？"],["顧主任志中：它就保證書跟測試報告……"],["馬委員文君：我要的是原廠的保證書，因為你們都說符合所有輸出裝備，這個部分如果有哪些是沒有的也請提供，好不好？"],["顧主任志中：是。"],["馬委員文君：你不用告訴我們來自哪裡，可是如果是沒有的，請你們提供出來。另外，我們一直講到，這次在整個測試的過程當中，有兩項可能還要執行的部分，第一個是電力系統，第二個是整合式台（IPMS）這部分。我想要請教，因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚，在錄音檔裡面有提到你們的主機是卡車的，在這裡要說明嗎？你們有看過嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，當初整個構型的動力都是經過選商，我們都是找具備輸出許可……"],["馬委員文君：參謀長。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：潛艦的主機需要的就是潛艦的主機，要使用的就是這個，因為它有壓力、要下潛，有很多跟路上尤其是車輛是完全不一樣的。因為你已經做好了，而且已經在測試了，在這裡我們要求，請給國人一個明確的保證，這一個東西是不是潛艦用的主機？甚至我們還接到訊息，不僅是卡車，還有可能是巴士併聯的主機，這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎，經過延壽改裝以後，拿來當成潛艦用的主機。不管是卡車，或者是巴士併聯，這6個主機請明確地證實，因為你們一定可以看到來源、一定知道是什麼功能使用的主機。請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的，因為你們當時是跟所有的……包括李宗孝當海軍司令部參謀長的時候，他告訴我們所有人包括立法院，他在動用預算的時候說：所有主次裝備也好、紅區裝備也好，所有的輸出許可都拿到了。表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機，如果不是，到底是不是卡車的，或者甚至是巴士併聯用在戰車上面的？請你們……我們信任你們包括部長，因為部長是法律背景出身，這個部分是做什麼用的，台船更清楚，董事長要講一下嗎？是車輛用的嗎？"],["陳董事長政宏：報告委員，這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的大廠，所以它的產品線很多，所以我想誤解是來自這裡……"],["馬委員文君：董事長，我們知道今天如果賣電池也好，任何東西也好，它就是有符合你要的3號、4號，你是要幾號，這很清楚。它賣很多種我知道，可是我要在這裡請你們做出承諾跟保證的是，這是什麼樣的主機？是潛艦用的嗎？是船艦用的嗎？"],["陳董事長政宏：對，這個是船艦用的主機，因為……"],["馬委員文君：你保證？"],["陳董事長政宏：對，因為我們……"],["馬委員文君：它會有來源嘛，對不對？"],["陳董事長政宏：對。"],["馬委員文君：你會有合格證書嘛，這個部分其實如果提供給立法院，我相信沒有問題吧？"],["陳董事長政宏：應該是沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：沒有問題，就是主機的來源還有相關證明文件，好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：當初因為輸出許可的問題，我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機，所以才會用數量比較多、功率比較小的主機，但是它們也有在船上用過……"],["馬委員文君：董事長，沒有關係，因為你是後來接的，在你前面已經換過兩個，我們現在要的只是請部長、海軍參謀長，還有台船董事長、相關的單位，你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件，證明這個主機就是潛艦要用的，而不是卡車也不是其他戰車併聯的裝置，好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：好。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以提供給我們？"],["陳董事長政宏：我們回去準備一下。"],["馬委員文君：大概要多久，一個時間點好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：大概一、兩週左右。"],["馬委員文君：那就一週，好不好？因為你只是提供資料而已，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員的質詢。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}}