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{\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 211.567, \"end\": 230.759, \"text\": \"報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 211.567, \"end\": 211.787, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 211.787, \"end\": 212.108, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 212.108, \"end\": 212.288, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 212.288, \"end\": 213.228, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 213.228, \"end\": 213.508, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 213.508, \"end\": 213.709, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 213.709, \"end\": 213.889, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 213.889, \"end\": 214.069, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 214.069, \"end\": 214.229, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"界\", 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 423.156, \"end\": 423.436, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 423.436, \"end\": 423.896, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 423.896, \"end\": 424.096, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 424.096, \"end\": 424.196, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 424.196, \"end\": 424.336, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 424.336, \"end\": 424.516, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 424.516, \"end\": 424.657, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 424.657, \"end\": 424.937, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 424.937, \"end\": 425.097, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 425.097, \"end\": 425.597, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 425.597, \"end\": 425.777, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"途\", \"start\": 425.777, \"end\": 425.917, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 425.917, \"end\": 426.197, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 426.197, \"end\": 426.217, \"score\": 0.265}]}, {\"start\": 426.737, \"end\": 451.646, \"text\": \"我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 426.737, \"end\": 427.017, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 427.017, \"end\": 427.157, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 427.157, \"end\": 427.537, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 427.537, \"end\": 427.677, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 427.677, \"end\": 427.878, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 427.878, \"end\": 428.318, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 428.318, \"end\": 428.658, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 428.658, \"end\": 429.018, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 429.018, \"end\": 430.078, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 430.078, \"end\": 430.258, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 430.258, \"end\": 430.418, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 430.418, \"end\": 430.739, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 430.739, \"end\": 430.879, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 430.879, \"end\": 431.039, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 431.039, \"end\": 431.279, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 431.279, \"end\": 431.819, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"普\", \"start\": 431.819, \"end\": 431.959, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"遍\", \"start\": 431.959, \"end\": 432.119, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"缺\", \"start\": 432.119, \"end\": 432.299, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"乏\", \"start\": 432.299, \"end\": 432.479, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 432.479, \"end\": 433.399, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 433.399, \"end\": 433.48, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 433.48, \"end\": 433.58, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 433.58, \"end\": 433.7, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 433.7, \"end\": 433.98, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"顯\"}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 433.98, \"end\": 434.56, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 434.56, \"end\": 434.7, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 434.7, \"end\": 435.2, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 435.2, \"end\": 435.36, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 435.36, \"end\": 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451.626, \"end\": 451.646, \"score\": 0.707}]}, {\"start\": 452.367, \"end\": 465.583, \"text\": \"這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 452.367, \"end\": 452.467, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 452.467, \"end\": 452.607, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 452.607, \"end\": 452.827, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 452.827, \"end\": 453.088, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 453.088, \"end\": 453.248, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 453.248, \"end\": 454.029, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 454.029, \"end\": 454.189, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 454.189, \"end\": 454.309, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 454.309, \"end\": 454.409, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": 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\"呼\", \"start\": 667.255, \"end\": 667.555, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 667.555, \"end\": 668.377, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 668.377, \"end\": 668.517, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 668.517, \"end\": 668.617, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 668.617, \"end\": 668.777, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 668.777, \"end\": 668.958, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 668.958, \"end\": 669.098, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 669.098, \"end\": 669.198, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 669.198, \"end\": 669.338, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 669.338, \"end\": 669.498, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 669.498, \"end\": 669.659, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 669.659, \"end\": 669.839, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 669.839, \"end\": 669.859, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 669.859, \"end\": 669.879, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 669.879, \"end\": 669.899, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 669.899, \"end\": 669.919, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 669.919, \"end\": 669.939, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 669.939, \"end\": 669.959, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"昭\", \"start\": 669.959, \"end\": 670.1, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 670.1, \"end\": 670.24, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 670.24, \"end\": 670.26, \"score\": 0.524}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,718 --> 00:00:07,739\n世界主席有請部長彭部長陳委員早部長早部長你剛剛也有報告到當然是颱風撞上南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月7月的時候16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說\n\n2\n00:00:32,029 --> 00:00:54,517\n已經完成99%的清理但是根據這個媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪這個災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在這個土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成的99%嗎\n\n3\n00:00:56,544 --> 00:01:24,625\n好感謝委員的這個意見這個這個新許我有看到那我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍那的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的一個場域那我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長部長我是說這個首長在回答這個備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細\n\n4\n00:01:26,386 --> 00:01:41,302\n99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力\n\n5\n00:01:42,043 --> 00:02:02,256\n在清理現場就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好報告委員我沒有背書我重罰我重罰這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬\n\n6\n00:02:04,297 --> 00:02:20,067\n我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出我們政府沒有出一毛錢\n\n7\n00:02:24,290 --> 00:02:48,203\n這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間都在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元\n\n8\n00:02:49,884 --> 00:03:02,890\n捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長職都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛\n\n9\n00:03:06,551 --> 00:03:29,270\n所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性您認為這是對的嗎\n\n10\n00:03:31,567 --> 00:03:50,759\n報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK\n\n11\n00:03:55,141 --> 00:04:16,606\n當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡\n\n12\n00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:44,292\n那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種\n\n13\n00:04:45,312 --> 00:05:11,871\n這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒只會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底\n\n14\n00:05:12,967 --> 00:05:37,060\n到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好包委員這個其實有幾個層次喔第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點\n\n15\n00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:54,848\n那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便輕運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的\n\n16\n00:05:56,489 --> 00:06:16,485\n這個是不約併一起所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質屋教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項左邊有11項但是它的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準\n\n17\n00:06:17,546 --> 00:06:29,079\n那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了\n\n18\n00:06:38,869 --> 00:07:06,217\n甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊\n\n19\n00:07:06,737 --> 00:07:31,646\n我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢\n\n20\n00:07:32,367 --> 00:07:45,583\n這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛\n\n21\n00:07:47,145 --> 00:08:14,941\n那現行法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個光電暗場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎\n\n22\n00:08:15,541 --> 00:08:30,979\n有這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提供要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被尋獸黃國昌總召說\n\n23\n00:08:33,041 --> 00:08:55,967\n他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評他但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難\n\n24\n00:08:56,847 --> 00:09:23,010\n卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個水因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論因為卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2\n\n25\n00:09:24,452 --> 00:09:36,710\n那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘\n\n26\n00:09:39,614 --> 00:10:01,741\n正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商\n\n27\n00:10:02,441 --> 00:10:28,975\n那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊\n\n28\n00:10:30,336 --> 00:10:57,871\n都要由你來收拾啊部長由你來收拾欸所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評上後視你你覺得公平嗎如果這樣你還不思考還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對報告委員我們就是這個是現在進行式我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告不管藍綠不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行這是我的態度\n\n29\n00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:10,260\n好部長你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了所以要積極介入好嗎好沒問題環境署稱呼環境部的很重要的原因嘛好謝謝委員我們會做謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4718\t7739\t世界主席有請部長 彭部長陳委員早部長早 部長你剛剛也有報告到當然是颱風撞上南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量 這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月 7月的時候 16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說\n32029\t54517\t已經完成99%的清理但是根據這個媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪這個災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在這個土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成的99%嗎\n56544\t84625\t好 感謝委員的這個意見這個這個新許我有看到那我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍那的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的一個場域那我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長部長 我是說這個首長在回答這個備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細\n86386\t101302\t99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力\n102043\t122256\t在清理現場 就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好 報告委員我沒有背書 我重罰我重罰 這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬\n124297\t140067\t我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出 我們政府沒有出一毛錢\n144290\t168203\t這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間都在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元\n169884\t182890\t捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長職都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛\n186551\t209270\t所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性 您認為這是對的嗎\n211567\t230759\t報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK\n235141\t256606\t當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡\n260560\t284292\t那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種\n285312\t311871\t這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒只會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底\n312967\t337060\t到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好 包委員這個其實有幾個層次喔第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點\n337600\t354848\t那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便輕運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的\n356489\t376485\t這個是不約併一起 所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質屋教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項 左邊有11項但是它的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準\n377546\t389079\t那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了\n398869\t426217\t甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊\n426737\t451646\t我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢\n452367\t465583\t這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛\n467145\t494941\t那現行法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個光電暗場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎\n495541\t510979\t有 這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提供要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被尋獸黃國昌總召說\n513041\t535967\t他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評他但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難\n536847\t563010\t卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個水因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論因為卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2\n564452\t576710\t那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘\n579614\t601741\t正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商\n602441\t628975\t那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊\n630336\t657871\t都要由你來收拾啊 部長由你來收拾欸 所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評 上後視你你覺得公平嗎 如果這樣你還不思考 還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對 報告委員 我們就是這個是現在進行式 我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告 不管藍綠 不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠 那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行 這是我的態度\n658800\t670260\t好 部長 你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了所以要積極介入好嗎好 沒問題環境署稱呼環境部的很重要的原因嘛好 謝謝委員我們會做謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員\n","txt":"世界主席有請部長 彭部長陳委員早部長早 部長你剛剛也有報告到當然是颱風撞上南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量 這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月 7月的時候 16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說\n已經完成99%的清理但是根據這個媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪這個災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在這個土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成的99%嗎\n好 感謝委員的這個意見這個這個新許我有看到那我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍那的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的一個場域那我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長部長 我是說這個首長在回答這個備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細\n99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力\n在清理現場 就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好 報告委員我沒有背書 我重罰我重罰 這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬\n我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出 我們政府沒有出一毛錢\n這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間都在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元\n捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長職都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛\n所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性 您認為這是對的嗎\n報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK\n當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡\n那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種\n這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒只會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底\n到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好 包委員這個其實有幾個層次喔第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點\n那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便輕運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的\n這個是不約併一起 所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質屋教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項 左邊有11項但是它的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準\n那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了\n甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊\n我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢\n這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛\n那現行法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個光電暗場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎\n有 這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提供要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被尋獸黃國昌總召說\n他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評他但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難\n卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個水因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論因為卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2\n那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘\n正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商\n那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊\n都要由你來收拾啊 部長由你來收拾欸 所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評 上後視你你覺得公平嗎 如果這樣你還不思考 還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對 報告委員 我們就是這個是現在進行式 我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告 不管藍綠 不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠 那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行 這是我的態度\n好 部長 你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了所以要積極介入好嗎好 沒問題環境署稱呼環境部的很重要的原因嘛好 謝謝委員我們會做謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.718 --> 00:07.739\n世界主席有請部長彭部長陳委員早部長早部長你剛剛也有報告到當然是颱風撞上南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月7月的時候16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說\n\n00:32.029 --> 00:54.517\n已經完成99%的清理但是根據這個媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪這個災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在這個土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成的99%嗎\n\n00:56.544 --> 01:24.625\n好感謝委員的這個意見這個這個新許我有看到那我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍那的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的一個場域那我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長部長我是說這個首長在回答這個備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細\n\n01:26.386 --> 01:41.302\n99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力\n\n01:42.043 --> 02:02.256\n在清理現場就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好報告委員我沒有背書我重罰我重罰這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬\n\n02:04.297 --> 02:20.067\n我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出我們政府沒有出一毛錢\n\n02:24.290 --> 02:48.203\n這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間都在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元\n\n02:49.884 --> 03:02.890\n捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長職都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛\n\n03:06.551 --> 03:29.270\n所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性您認為這是對的嗎\n\n03:31.567 --> 03:50.759\n報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK\n\n03:55.141 --> 04:16.606\n當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡\n\n04:20.560 --> 04:44.292\n那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種\n\n04:45.312 --> 05:11.871\n這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒只會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底\n\n05:12.967 --> 05:37.060\n到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好包委員這個其實有幾個層次喔第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點\n\n05:37.600 --> 05:54.848\n那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便輕運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的\n\n05:56.489 --> 06:16.485\n這個是不約併一起所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質屋教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項左邊有11項但是它的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準\n\n06:17.546 --> 06:29.079\n那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了\n\n06:38.869 --> 07:06.217\n甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊\n\n07:06.737 --> 07:31.646\n我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢\n\n07:32.367 --> 07:45.583\n這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛\n\n07:47.145 --> 08:14.941\n那現行法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個光電暗場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎\n\n08:15.541 --> 08:30.979\n有這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提供要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被尋獸黃國昌總召說\n\n08:33.041 --> 08:55.967\n他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評他但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難\n\n08:56.847 --> 09:23.010\n卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個水因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論因為卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2\n\n09:24.452 --> 09:36.710\n那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘\n\n09:39.614 --> 10:01.741\n正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商\n\n10:02.441 --> 10:28.975\n那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊\n\n10:30.336 --> 10:57.871\n都要由你來收拾啊部長由你來收拾欸所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評上後視你你覺得公平嗎如果這樣你還不思考還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對報告委員我們就是這個是現在進行式我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告不管藍綠不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行這是我的態度\n\n10:58.800 --> 11:10.260\n好部長你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了所以要積極介入好嗎好沒問題環境署稱呼環境部的很重要的原因嘛好謝謝委員我們會做謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.718,"end":7.739,"text":"世界主席有請部長 彭部長陳委員早部長早 部長你剛剛也有報告到當然是颱風撞上南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量 這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月 7月的時候 16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說"},{"start":32.029,"end":54.517,"text":"已經完成99%的清理但是根據這個媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪這個災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在這個土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成的99%嗎"},{"start":56.544,"end":84.625,"text":"好 感謝委員的這個意見這個這個新許我有看到那我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍那的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的一個場域那我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長部長 我是說這個首長在回答這個備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細"},{"start":86.386,"end":101.302,"text":"99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力"},{"start":102.043,"end":122.256,"text":"在清理現場 就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好 報告委員我沒有背書 我重罰我重罰 這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬"},{"start":124.297,"end":140.067,"text":"我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出 我們政府沒有出一毛錢"},{"start":144.29,"end":168.203,"text":"這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間都在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元"},{"start":169.884,"end":182.89,"text":"捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長職都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛"},{"start":186.551,"end":209.27,"text":"所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性 您認為這是對的嗎"},{"start":211.567,"end":230.759,"text":"報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK"},{"start":235.141,"end":256.606,"text":"當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡"},{"start":260.56,"end":284.292,"text":"那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種"},{"start":285.312,"end":311.871,"text":"這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒只會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底"},{"start":312.967,"end":337.06,"text":"到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好 包委員這個其實有幾個層次喔第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點"},{"start":337.6,"end":354.848,"text":"那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便輕運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的"},{"start":356.489,"end":376.485,"text":"這個是不約併一起 所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質屋教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項 左邊有11項但是它的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準"},{"start":377.546,"end":389.079,"text":"那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了"},{"start":398.869,"end":426.217,"text":"甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊"},{"start":426.737,"end":451.646,"text":"我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢"},{"start":452.367,"end":465.583,"text":"這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛"},{"start":467.145,"end":494.941,"text":"那現行法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個光電暗場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎"},{"start":495.541,"end":510.979,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提供要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被尋獸黃國昌總召說"},{"start":513.041,"end":535.967,"text":"他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評他但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難"},{"start":536.847,"end":563.01,"text":"卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個水因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論因為卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2"},{"start":564.452,"end":576.71,"text":"那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘"},{"start":579.614,"end":601.741,"text":"正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商"},{"start":602.441,"end":628.975,"text":"那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊"},{"start":630.336,"end":657.871,"text":"都要由你來收拾啊 部長由你來收拾欸 所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評 上後視你你覺得公平嗎 如果這樣你還不思考 還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對 報告委員 我們就是這個是現在進行式 我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告 不管藍綠 不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠 那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行 這是我的態度"},{"start":658.8,"end":670.26,"text":"好 部長 你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了所以要積極介入好嗎好 沒問題環境署稱呼環境部的很重要的原因嘛好 謝謝委員我們會做謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時37分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，你剛剛也有報告到丹娜絲颱風重創南臺灣的一些光電場址，你談的是光電板的數量，好像我聽到是20萬，但是我要談的是，它是超過2,000噸的廢棄物。經濟部次長在7月16日備詢的時候，向黃國昌委員說，已經完成99%的清理，但是根據媒體的報導，部長請看附圖，記者在10月份實地走訪災場，發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在土壤裡。我想請問部長，你作為全國主掌環境保護的最高機關，你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎？清理完成了99%嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：感謝委員的意見。這個訊息我有看到，我有特別跟我的同仁查驗，因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍，的確沒有看到這樣的情況。不過因為當地是一個開放的場域，我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次，因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西，這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。部長，我是說首長在備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細，說99%清理完，那就是全部清理完了。清理現場其實是第一線業者的工作，但部長我必須這樣講，這段時間我有發現，環境部不斷地用部的名義來幫業者背書，你說他們都非常努力在清理現場，其實我不只聽您這樣講過一次。既然環境部願意幫雲豹旗下的業者背書，我要請教環境部，是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為這個業者背書呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我沒有背書，我重罰。我是重罰，像最後一家他清理的速度很慢，我們罰了900萬，我沒有背書，是重罰，當然我們也要鼓勵他、拜託他清快一點。"],["陳委員昭姿：你應該說你會好好監督，因為你是對著立法委員在回答這個問題，你認為他們都很努力了，盡力了，然後我也問你這個費用誰處理，將來我也會追究這個費用……"],["彭部長啓明：都他們出，政府沒有出一毛錢。"],["陳委員昭姿：當時你是這樣跟我回答，但是部長，我必須提到一些稍微敏感的問題，但這是公開的資料。根據政治獻金的公開資料，雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物，其中包括多名新系的立委跟議員，捐款時間多在賴勁麟擔任董事長的期間。另外，嘉義新塭的滯洪池水面型光電的維運商叫做永鑫能源，他也曾捐款給立委賴瑞隆100萬元，捐贈多筆給數名民進黨的高雄市議員，後來不曉得為什麼又返還，不知道發生什麼事。","我明白環境部過去在整個光電產業的發展當中，其實沒有什麼太重要的角色，為什麼呢？因為很多開發案場址都規避了環評責任，根本不需要環評，所以環境部變成局外人，等於是說光電廠商左手餵養政治人物，右手他就一邊去賺綠電的利益了，難怪環境部被架空了。所以我現在要請教部長，您回頭想，您是否認為過去光電產業的發展排除了環境部的角色，排除了環評的必要性？您認為這是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實過去全世界所有的所謂光電的環評，我有注意到誰在什麼時候建立，大概他的時間都很短，就是在過去這幾年才有，因為我是去年5月才來，那過去可能也是參酌全世界其他的國家……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我當然不是請你概括承受，就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎？您覺得OK嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然，如果任何國家的開發能夠都有環境的意見……"],["陳委員昭姿：今天看起來就不對了嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對保護我們的國土是有用的。"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下我會再告訴部長，為什麼您現在應該覺得要積極了。三個月過去了，這些碎玻璃混入泥土中，你看越來越難清理，同時也有少數的光電板，你看最右邊那張圖，還泡在水裡欸。有民間團體，例如看守臺灣，他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到池底裡，因為尖銳的表面，會割傷底棲型的生物。","部長，您去現勘的時候也發現，業者是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮筒，您自己也看到啦，露天就是不蓋也不墊，破碎塑膠浮筒的微粒會溢散到空中，然後如果被浮游生物吃了，不但影響他們的營養份的吸收，還會影響他們生長，最後如果微粒越來越小，微粒只會越來越小、越來越小，然後根據食物鏈的累積加疊，最後會進入人類的食物系統，我想這是一個可以推論的結果，部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底到我們人類餐桌上的風險，有沒有在想這件事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實有幾個層次，第一個，如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面，其實我們有跟能源署討論，一定要請業者去打撈，此事目前他們正在處理當中，我認為是要打撈、要看過一次，讓大家信服，因為這是……"],["陳委員昭姿：我是希望部長還是要想這種有長遠影響的……"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點。"],["彭部長啓明：對。第二個是因為那個浮筒面積很大，他想要縮小以方便清運，省一點錢，就是那家被我們罰了900萬的業者……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，謝謝。因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西，對生物、對人類……"],["彭部長啓明：對、對，他把它破壞掉，那其實他原先如果是沒有這個正常的……"],["陳委員昭姿：他沒有一個處理的方法，就直接露天……"],["彭部長啓明：這個是不允許的，所以也被我們要求……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，環境品質文教基金會的專家指出，目前滯洪池光電設施的審定原則有11項，但是它的重點在排水還有故障時候的處理，並未充分納入防災風險以及結構安全強度的關鍵審查要素，11項原則中也沒有訂定所謂的抗風標準，缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的審查機制，投標契約又不公開，這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢？當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時，沒有全面考量環境的條件或是氣候變遷的風險，導致現在部分的案場在颱風豪雨時受損了，甚至影響周邊安全，顯示現行的制度有漏洞。環境部如果認為這是跨部會的權責，你是否願意主動召開協調會呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實我們在前幾個月發現問題之後有主動提出來，也有跟經濟部討論過這個事情，他們其實也把它納進去作為他們發行許可的一個條件。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調？因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。部長，您多次提到光電場普遍缺乏防災應變計畫，而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞，您自己這樣講。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問環境部是否已針對這個問題著手研擬一套或一致的、統一的災變應變措施，來確保未來新設的案場、案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的思維？"],["彭部長啓明：這個部分我們已經跟經濟部、能源署有過協商，他們也承諾來做這個事情，因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災，所以我相信等到告一段落之後，我們一定會來做。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我可以理解，因為過去沒有思考到，但是現在要積極改變。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：依現行法規，水面型的光電設施並不需要環評，讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督，請問貴部是否同意檢討並增訂法條，要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制？然後我要再提，針對已經營運的，這個是未來的部分，針對已經在營運的光電案場，環境部是否有規劃我們如何進行補強或回溯的檢討，這樣相關的作業您有在做嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部、能源署協商，他們也很快地把我們所要求的意見納進去了，未來我們應該會跟他們有一些協商的會議來最後確認這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我想提醒你，前幾天卓院長曾在備詢時回答黃國昌總召說：我本來的想法是在水面、一定面積以上的我們要更慎重。對於水面型光電是否納入環評，你們都說在評估中，但卓院長的回答是這樣的，而你也提到多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災應變計畫，目前顯示真的是存在漏洞，你們一而再，再而三說評估中，到底有什麼困難？卓院長也某個程度表達啦！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是我目前還看不到一個水……因為水面型的光電案場大概都……例如說10MW就10公頃以上那麼大面積，到底要多大的面積是合理的？這個可以討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，可以，就是說你不要放掉，因為卓院長也有一些承諾。最後我很遺憾的說，我必須談這個部分，2018年雲豹子公司兆洋取得新塭滯洪池光電場標案後，同年就轉售給英商GRP II，現在這個案場實際的建商跟維運商永鑫在2022年也被同一家叫做貝萊德基金收購，等於說外商全資掌控這個案場，這種案例凸顯臺灣的光電場很慘，正走向一個追求利益、追逐利益為導向的發展模式，他們把它當作一個投資的商品，重在資金的操作跟報酬的回收，但是對於防災的規劃或是環境責任就開始邊緣化，制度上毫無約束，這是一個事實。","部長，目前臺灣大多數光電案場背後母公司都是外商，這些外資之所以積極投入，我認為是我們20年期再生能源的躉購制度，他會有穩定的收入，這是一個誘因，但是一旦躉購制度結束，獲利不再保證，這些外商會抽腿、會離開啊！到時候這些光電開發案場會留下什麼？就是我們現在看到的──農地被破壞、樹林被砍光種電、廢棄的光電板回收有困難，那都要由你來收拾，部長，由你來收拾欸！所以我的意思是，如果你不及早納入環評，善後是你負責，你覺得公平嗎？如果這樣，你還不思考、還不積極在這個光電產業發展中，環境部要有更積極的作為嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們就是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要收拾啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個是現在進行式，我們已經在進行當中，也跟委員報告，不管藍綠、不管藍綠，做光電的有藍也有綠，不管藍綠，我們就照著保護環境這個原則來進行，這是我的態度。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你有責無權是很糟糕的，既然已經看到後果了，所以要積極介入，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是身為環境部很重要的原因。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，我們會做，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}}