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641.127, \"end\": 654.926, \"text\": \"做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 641.127, \"end\": 641.347, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 641.347, \"end\": 641.528, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 641.528, \"end\": 641.688, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 641.688, \"end\": 642.088, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"諾\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 642.088, \"end\": 642.209, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"履\", \"start\": 642.209, \"end\": 642.389, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 642.389, \"end\": 643.51, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 643.51, \"end\": 643.651, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 643.651, \"end\": 643.831, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 643.831, \"end\": 644.011, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 644.011, \"end\": 644.632, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 673.272, \"end\": 674.253, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 674.253, \"end\": 674.473, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 674.473, \"end\": 674.733, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 674.733, \"end\": 674.953, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 674.953, \"end\": 675.414, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 675.414, \"end\": 675.574, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 675.574, \"end\": 676.495, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 676.495, \"end\": 676.896, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 676.896, \"end\": 677.316, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 677.316, \"end\": 677.336, \"score\": 0.29}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,796 --> 00:00:30,088\n好謝謝主席我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱啊啊啊或者是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答全部在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌來\n\n2\n00:00:36,383 --> 00:00:48,321\n委員長三位好我時間的關係不一一問首先從那個旋序部開始警察人員人事條例總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說\n\n3\n00:00:50,908 --> 00:01:19,272\n新法生效以後現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了新法生效以後法律已經生效你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那一天外選序部的部長我問他說啊你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有他跟我說有但問題是什麼問題是啊我們警察同仁跟我\n\n4\n00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:44,358\n提出陳情的時候我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說喂喂沒有欸你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊\n\n5\n00:01:46,090 --> 00:01:53,924\n你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算思年節跟我說有這怎麼回事\n\n6\n00:01:55,106 --> 00:02:18,963\n現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦怎麼會出現這樣的差異\n\n7\n00:02:20,304 --> 00:02:45,091\n我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面一個是寫在互助上面這個部分但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響\n\n8\n00:02:45,711 --> 00:03:08,387\n你說對他實際不會有影響那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的新的還舊的目前因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎不會嘛\n\n9\n00:03:09,963 --> 00:03:36,964\n你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家\n\n10\n00:03:38,406 --> 00:03:50,305\n對於公務人員對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算\n\n11\n00:03:51,365 --> 00:04:16,618\n沒有預算也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律那是供預算編列那我們就沒有我們這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛\n\n12\n00:04:17,358 --> 00:04:27,799\n你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊我們現在會做啊\n\n13\n00:04:28,871 --> 00:04:53,556\n而且我跟委員報告我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好沒關係我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛\n\n14\n00:04:54,690 --> 00:05:17,824\n我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望\n\n15\n00:05:19,024 --> 00:05:47,826\n選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年十年\n\n16\n00:05:52,881 --> 00:06:15,474\n錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊\n\n17\n00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:38,484\n行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情\n\n18\n00:06:39,656 --> 00:06:52,623\n那等於是什麼等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話50年會增加1600多億嗎沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話5年會增加1400多億啊\n\n19\n00:07:03,615 --> 00:07:33,081\n同一天喔到這邊來報告喔一個教育部一個學習部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊五十年不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億平均一年多少錢就三十億嘛\n\n20\n00:07:34,042 --> 00:08:02,561\n我這樣說沒有錯吧部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費\n\n21\n00:08:04,624 --> 00:08:31,240\n給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流\n\n22\n00:08:32,523 --> 00:08:42,168\n明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案10年還20年\n\n23\n00:08:52,472 --> 00:09:06,645\n跟委員報告部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人話隨便講一講說要10年撥補結果出來預算書還是20年撥補\n\n24\n00:09:14,898 --> 00:09:43,532\n教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎\n\n25\n00:09:44,811 --> 00:10:10,843\n有建議那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說\n\n26\n00:10:12,304 --> 00:10:40,087\n啊如果教師停凱未來每年會多30億來我來看看10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊\n\n27\n00:10:41,127 --> 00:10:54,926\n做出的承諾不履行採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政這是什麼治理這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢我完全看不懂\n\n28\n00:10:56,633 --> 00:11:17,336\n我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2796\t30088\t好 謝謝主席 我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱啊啊啊或者是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答 全部在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌 來\n36383\t48321\t委員長三位好 我時間的關係不一一問首先從那個 旋序部開始警察人員人事條例總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說\n50908\t79272\t新法生效以後 現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了 新法生效以後法律已經生效 你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那一天 外選序部的部長我問他說啊 你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有 他跟我說有 但問題是什麼問題是啊 我們警察同仁跟我\n80359\t104358\t提出陳情的時候 我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說 喂喂沒有欸你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了 我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊\n106090\t113924\t你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算思年節跟我說有 這怎麼回事\n115106\t138963\t現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦怎麼會出現這樣的差異\n140304\t165091\t我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面 一個是寫在互助上面這個部分 但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響\n165711\t188387\t你說對他實際不會有影響 那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的 新的還舊的目前因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦 這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎 不會嘛\n189963\t216964\t你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦 我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家\n218406\t230305\t對於公務人員 對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算\n231365\t256618\t沒有預算也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律那是供預算編列那我們就沒有我們這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛\n257358\t267799\t你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對 那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊 我們現在會做啊\n268871\t293556\t而且我跟委員報告 我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是 新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好 沒關係 我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊 這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛\n294690\t317824\t我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望\n319024\t347826\t選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年十年\n352881\t375474\t錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊 我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊\n376519\t398484\t行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼 多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情\n399656\t412623\t那等於是什麼 等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話50年會增加1600多億嗎沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話5年會增加1400多億啊\n423615\t453081\t同一天喔 到這邊來報告喔一個教育部 一個學習部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁 我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊五十年 不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億平均一年多少錢 就三十億嘛\n454042\t482561\t我這樣說沒有錯吧 部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費\n484624\t511240\t給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流\n512523\t522168\t明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來 我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案 10年還20年\n532472\t546645\t跟委員報告 部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼 去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人 話隨便講一講說要10年撥補 結果出來預算書還是20年撥補\n554898\t583532\t教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院 卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來 請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎\n584811\t610843\t有建議那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說\n612304\t640087\t啊 如果教師停凱 未來每年會多30億來 我來看看 10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪 10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊\n641127\t654926\t做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂\n656633\t677336\t我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱啊啊啊或者是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答 全部在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌 來\n委員長三位好 我時間的關係不一一問首先從那個 旋序部開始警察人員人事條例總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說\n新法生效以後 現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了 新法生效以後法律已經生效 你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那一天 外選序部的部長我問他說啊 你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有 他跟我說有 但問題是什麼問題是啊 我們警察同仁跟我\n提出陳情的時候 我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說 喂喂沒有欸你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了 我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊\n你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算思年節跟我說有 這怎麼回事\n現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦怎麼會出現這樣的差異\n我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面 一個是寫在互助上面這個部分 但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響\n你說對他實際不會有影響 那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的 新的還舊的目前因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦 這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎 不會嘛\n你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦 我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家\n對於公務人員 對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算\n沒有預算也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律那是供預算編列那我們就沒有我們這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛\n你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對 那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊 我們現在會做啊\n而且我跟委員報告 我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是 新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好 沒關係 我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊 這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛\n我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望\n選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年十年\n錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊 我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊\n行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼 多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情\n那等於是什麼 等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話50年會增加1600多億嗎沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話5年會增加1400多億啊\n同一天喔 到這邊來報告喔一個教育部 一個學習部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁 我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊五十年 不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億平均一年多少錢 就三十億嘛\n我這樣說沒有錯吧 部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費\n給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流\n明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來 我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案 10年還20年\n跟委員報告 部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼 去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人 話隨便講一講說要10年撥補 結果出來預算書還是20年撥補\n教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院 卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來 請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎\n有建議那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說\n啊 如果教師停凱 未來每年會多30億來 我來看看 10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪 10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊\n做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂\n我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.796 --> 00:30.088\n好謝謝主席我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱啊啊啊或者是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答全部在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌來\n\n00:36.383 --> 00:48.321\n委員長三位好我時間的關係不一一問首先從那個旋序部開始警察人員人事條例總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說\n\n00:50.908 --> 01:19.272\n新法生效以後現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了新法生效以後法律已經生效你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那一天外選序部的部長我問他說啊你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有他跟我說有但問題是什麼問題是啊我們警察同仁跟我\n\n01:20.359 --> 01:44.358\n提出陳情的時候我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說喂喂沒有欸你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊\n\n01:46.090 --> 01:53.924\n你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算思年節跟我說有這怎麼回事\n\n01:55.106 --> 02:18.963\n現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦怎麼會出現這樣的差異\n\n02:20.304 --> 02:45.091\n我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面一個是寫在互助上面這個部分但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響\n\n02:45.711 --> 03:08.387\n你說對他實際不會有影響那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的新的還舊的目前因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎不會嘛\n\n03:09.963 --> 03:36.964\n你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家\n\n03:38.406 --> 03:50.305\n對於公務人員對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算\n\n03:51.365 --> 04:16.618\n沒有預算也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律那是供預算編列那我們就沒有我們這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛\n\n04:17.358 --> 04:27.799\n你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊我們現在會做啊\n\n04:28.871 --> 04:53.556\n而且我跟委員報告我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好沒關係我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛\n\n04:54.690 --> 05:17.824\n我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望\n\n05:19.024 --> 05:47.826\n選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年十年\n\n05:52.881 --> 06:15.474\n錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊\n\n06:16.519 --> 06:38.484\n行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情\n\n06:39.656 --> 06:52.623\n那等於是什麼等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話50年會增加1600多億嗎沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話5年會增加1400多億啊\n\n07:03.615 --> 07:33.081\n同一天喔到這邊來報告喔一個教育部一個學習部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊五十年不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億平均一年多少錢就三十億嘛\n\n07:34.042 --> 08:02.561\n我這樣說沒有錯吧部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費\n\n08:04.624 --> 08:31.240\n給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流\n\n08:32.523 --> 08:42.168\n明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案10年還20年\n\n08:52.472 --> 09:06.645\n跟委員報告部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人話隨便講一講說要10年撥補結果出來預算書還是20年撥補\n\n09:14.898 --> 09:43.532\n教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎\n\n09:44.811 --> 10:10.843\n有建議那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說\n\n10:12.304 --> 10:40.087\n啊如果教師停凱未來每年會多30億來我來看看10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊\n\n10:41.127 --> 10:54.926\n做出的承諾不履行採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政這是什麼治理這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢我完全看不懂\n\n10:56.633 --> 11:17.336\n我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.796,"end":30.088,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱啊啊啊或者是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答 全部在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌 來"},{"start":36.383,"end":48.321,"text":"委員長三位好 我時間的關係不一一問首先從那個 旋序部開始警察人員人事條例總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說"},{"start":50.908,"end":79.272,"text":"新法生效以後 現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了 新法生效以後法律已經生效 你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那一天 外選序部的部長我問他說啊 你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有 他跟我說有 但問題是什麼問題是啊 我們警察同仁跟我"},{"start":80.359,"end":104.358,"text":"提出陳情的時候 我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說 喂喂沒有欸你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了 我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊"},{"start":106.09,"end":113.924,"text":"你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算思年節跟我說有 這怎麼回事"},{"start":115.106,"end":138.963,"text":"現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦怎麼會出現這樣的差異"},{"start":140.304,"end":165.091,"text":"我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面 一個是寫在互助上面這個部分 但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響"},{"start":165.711,"end":188.387,"text":"你說對他實際不會有影響 那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的 新的還舊的目前因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦 這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎 不會嘛"},{"start":189.963,"end":216.964,"text":"你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦 我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家"},{"start":218.406,"end":230.305,"text":"對於公務人員 對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算"},{"start":231.365,"end":256.618,"text":"沒有預算也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律那是供預算編列那我們就沒有我們這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛"},{"start":257.358,"end":267.799,"text":"你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對 那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊 我們現在會做啊"},{"start":268.871,"end":293.556,"text":"而且我跟委員報告 我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是 新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好 沒關係 我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊 這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛"},{"start":294.69,"end":317.824,"text":"我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望"},{"start":319.024,"end":347.826,"text":"選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年十年"},{"start":352.881,"end":375.474,"text":"錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊 我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊"},{"start":376.519,"end":398.484,"text":"行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼 多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情"},{"start":399.656,"end":412.623,"text":"那等於是什麼 等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話50年會增加1600多億嗎沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話5年會增加1400多億啊"},{"start":423.615,"end":453.081,"text":"同一天喔 到這邊來報告喔一個教育部 一個學習部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁 我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊五十年 不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億平均一年多少錢 就三十億嘛"},{"start":454.042,"end":482.561,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧 部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費"},{"start":484.624,"end":511.24,"text":"給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流"},{"start":512.523,"end":522.168,"text":"明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來 我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案 10年還20年"},{"start":532.472,"end":546.645,"text":"跟委員報告 部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼 去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人 話隨便講一講說要10年撥補 結果出來預算書還是20年撥補"},{"start":554.898,"end":583.532,"text":"教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院 卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來 請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎"},{"start":584.811,"end":610.843,"text":"有建議那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說"},{"start":612.304,"end":640.087,"text":"啊 如果教師停凱 未來每年會多30億來 我來看看 10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪 10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊"},{"start":641.127,"end":654.926,"text":"做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂"},{"start":656.633,"end":677.336,"text":"我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請教育部部長以及銓敘部政次。也跟主席報告，主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重，也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點，因為我問的問題其實都滿具體的，有時候在那邊「咦咦啊啊」或者是整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答，全部都是在浪費時間嘛，這一點也再請召委一併斟酌。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好。時間關係，我就不一一問候。首先從銓敘部開始，警察人員人事條例的修法經總統公布了以後，我上一次請教過，在新法生效以後，現在我不是在講新法生效前退休的，而是新法生效以後退休的，法律已經生效了，你們給人家的退休核定函就應該依照新法計算，這個是法治國家的ABC嘛！我那一天問銓敘部部長，我問他：你確定給他們的函上面，有依照新法計算的？他跟我說：有。但問題是什麼？我們警察同仁向我提出陳情的時候，我一向是實事求是，不會只聽他們嘴巴跟我說：委員，沒有，你說會按照新法計算，我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算。我當然就跟他要那個函來看，看看上面到底是怎麼寫的。結果我要來看了以後發現沒有錯，你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率，你們的部長怎麼會跟我那樣回答呢？來，請看一下，我問「你確定給他們的函上面，有依照新法計算的？」施能傑跟我說「有」，這怎麼回事？現在到底按照舊法計算還是按照新法計算？我再強調一次，不是以前退休的人，你們系統要改變所需要的時間要到年底，而是法律生效以後申請退休的人，法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例，你們部長也跟我說「有」，但是人家給我看的函看起來也不是偽造變造的啦，怎麼會出現這樣的差異？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，第一個是時間差的問題，我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後，後來在8月以後的審定函我們全部都重新改過一版，這個部分我們會送給委員來參考。前面的部分是把它分成兩段，這個我也承認，一個寫在本函上面，一個寫在附註上面，但是對他實質的影響是都不會有影響，我跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：你說對他的實質影響是不會有影響……"],["懷次長敍：沒有影響。"],["黃委員國昌：那我就具體地問嘛，他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算？新的還是舊的？"],["懷次長敍：目前因為新的是沒有……新的部分、要增加的部分是沒有預算的部分，但是舊的部分絕對都是……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛！"],["懷次長敍：對啊。"],["黃委員國昌：國家沒有編預算，會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎？不會嘛！行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊，什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算在做行政處分？這不是很荒謬嗎？我講一個最簡單的，任何現在去考高考三級的人，考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案，我們現在國家對於公務人員、對於警消的公法上金錢債權，在做行政處分是依法去做還是依預算去做？有預算就按照預算，沒有預算也沒有辦法，現在考試院的立場是什麼？行政院可以很政治，但是考試院，我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊，怎麼考試院做事也會這樣？"],["懷次長敍：我們不會這樣子做啦！"],["黃委員國昌：但現實上不是這樣做嗎？"],["懷次長敍：不是，我跟委員報告，屬於基金該給的，我們都會支付，但是因為條例上面規定的，那是公務預算要編列，我們沒有，那個是要編在內政部那邊……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才問你嘛，你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分？"],["懷次長敍：我們依照法律在做行政處分。"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎？有嗎？"],["懷次長敍：有啊！我們現在會做啊！而且我跟委員報告，我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁，對這四萬多件，我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊！"],["黃委員國昌：那是舊的嘛！"],["懷次長敍：不是，新的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：新的？"],["懷次長敍：對，就是要把這個條例通過以後的……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["懷次長敍：就跟委員報告過，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣到年底？"],["懷次長敍：對、對、對，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，我希望你年底前可以完成喔！因為這個牽涉到很多警察同仁實際上的生活嘛，我們說要尊重警消，感謝他們冒險犯難投入救災，什麼事情都他們在做，有事警察幹、沒有事的時候幹警察，然後搞到現在連他們依法應有的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現，我為什麼這個問題質詢三次？因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我陳情，我希望銓敘部在職掌範圍之內，依法該做的趕快做，到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題，我們自然而然會請行政院負責。","接下來我要請問教育部，部長，當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候，那個時候所得替代率是每年逐年的調降，教育部的版本是分幾年調降？"],["鄭部長英耀：10年。"],["黃委員國昌：錯！來，我直接給你看，這個是當初由教育部研擬後送出的行政院函請公立學校教職員退休撫卹條例，10年是後來立法委員提的版本，行政院的版本是分幾年？15年啦！我白紙黑字都寫在上面，10年是立法委員的提案，是段宜康他們提的，行政院的版本是分15年啦！部長，你有看到嗎？自己的業務要熟啦！今天都已經要來這邊備詢了，10年跟15年的差別是每一年多0.5%嘛，所以difference我全部都做出來了，這個是第一件事情，這個等於是什麼？是今天教育部的立場到底有改變還是沒有改變？","第二個最重要的，你們在書面報告上面的數字提到，如果停砍的話，50年會增加一千六百多億，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們再去看一下銓敘部的報告，銓敘部的報告是如果停砍的話，5年會增加一千四百多億。同一天到這邊來報告，一個教育部、一個銓敘部，兩個數字都兜不起來，這個作業要再嚴謹一點啦！我相信你有很多理由要解釋，但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字不一樣，就不一樣啊！50年，不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億，平均一年多少錢？就30億嘛，我這樣說沒有錯吧？部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：一年30億，一年30億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念？","每一年我們的政府亂花、浪費、貪腐、給廠商惡搞走的，有幾個30億啊？有幾個30億啊？結果面對這些基層的老師卻苛刻得不得了，政府自己的貪腐、自己的浪費、給廠商胡搞瞎搞，我再講一次，一年有幾個30億？","我先不講這件事情，我先從最基本的開始講。去年我參加一個記者會，記者會上全教總說，有關於教師的撥補，要採10年方案，不要採20年方案。那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加，還說：我一定會建議行政院從善如流，明年編制115年預算時就應該採取10年撥補的方案。來，我現在看預算書，今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補？是採哪一個方案？10年還是20年？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，部裡面是分10年撥補，但最終是以20年的方式來進行。"],["黃委員國昌：所以去年跟全教總一起開記者會，是在那邊「畫虎爛」喔！話隨便講一講喔！說要10年撥補，結果預算書出來還是20年撥補。教育部認為應該10年撥補，還是20年撥補？按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛！到行政院，卓榮泰決定20年撥補。部長，你有沒有跟他據理力爭？部長，你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭，還是卓榮泰決定了，你鼻子摸一摸就算了，還是聽院長的？來，請教部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們確實有對這個撥補做了一些表達。"],["黃委員國昌：跟卓榮泰表達嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有建議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以卓榮泰還是堅持己見？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為從整體政府的預算跟有一個條例，等於說我們退休裡面，所有的東西政府到最後一定會來負最後的保證責任，我想這也是整體考量到年度預算……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎？因為今天在討論的是，如果教師停砍，未來每年會多30億。來，我來看看，10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢？最終差了750億啊！奇怪，10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億，你們不採，一定要20年撥補，那我就看不懂啦？然後你現在在計較1年30億的，我完全看不懂啊！做出的承諾不履行，採取的方案多花納稅人750億，這是什麼施政、這是什麼治理、這是什麼數學、這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢？我完全看不懂啊！我完全看不懂啊！","最後一句話，針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去，還是要停止下來，反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落，台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，請回座。"],["王委員義川：主席，說11分鐘喔！"],["主席：接下來請柯志恩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}