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{\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 397.901, \"end\": 398.042, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 398.042, \"end\": 398.182, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 398.182, \"end\": 398.282, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 398.282, \"end\": 398.362, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 398.362, \"end\": 398.402, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 398.402, \"end\": 398.523, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 398.523, \"end\": 398.643, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 398.643, \"end\": 398.663, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,210 --> 00:00:09,212\n呃谢谢主席我们是不是请部长教育部部长好有请部长喂你好\n\n2\n00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:35,011\n部長好我是提出第六十四條的修正動議但是在我進入主題之前我還是有個問題想問同樣是全教總的問題我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關學校的校事會議沒錯吧部長跟博長不管曹也都提到校事會議大家是不需要精進但是呢你們就有一位前\n\n3\n00:00:36,191 --> 00:01:05,003\n這個主秘莊國榮教授他卻在上禮拜五的時候對於全教總他認為他是沒出息提到這個校式會議教育部完全沒有任何的一個說法那你點點沒事那我想請問他到底是吼給這個部長看指桑罵槐因為你明明告訴我們校式會議是要來做更精進的但是呢你卻沒有對於這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣子的羞辱的時候教育部卻完全沒有任何的部分所以教育部是默許嗎\n\n4\n00:01:06,721 --> 00:01:27,371\n跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊\n\n5\n00:01:27,881 --> 00:01:36,644\n他們有工作嗎有吧沒有就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似但是教育部裡面沒錯這就是一個重點啊但是呢所有的權益修法教師法規審判霸凌學生身心調適全部很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常多不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個\n\n6\n00:01:55,009 --> 00:01:58,431\n我都要參加這麼多的話你們的法規處長在幹嘛?莊教授他基本上是法學背景當然在委員會法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家專業的一個學者是非常多人可以去問卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚還有往下來去看特別是呢他提出來即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查部長\n\n7\n00:02:20,385 --> 00:02:22,689\n你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們教一個學校就要十萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重\n\n8\n00:02:36,309 --> 00:02:39,191\n但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛數這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯而且這位前主委才會希望能夠讓老師有一個所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾\n\n9\n00:03:04,969 --> 00:03:19,397\n千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎\n\n10\n00:03:20,598 --> 00:03:26,620\n好接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整\n\n11\n00:03:48,388 --> 00:04:15,925\n所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的就像是好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長\n\n12\n00:04:17,606 --> 00:04:42,328\n對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟勞保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以勞保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍誰可以回答我這個問題\n\n13\n00:04:45,697 --> 00:05:06,789\n那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務\n\n14\n00:05:12,952 --> 00:05:36,793\n年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六讓看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這不是這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的這個公教人員需要做很多不同的方法就每四年這一個有這個政府CPI這個政府5%\n\n15\n00:05:38,695 --> 00:05:50,284\n是但是你跟其他我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊\n\n16\n00:06:01,693 --> 00:06:29,764\n所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間的關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力\n\n17\n00:06:31,448 --> 00:06:38,663\n好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5210\t9212\t呃谢谢主席我们是不是请部长教育部部长好有请部长喂你好\n15120\t35011\t部長好我是提出第六十四條的修正動議但是在我進入主題之前我還是有個問題想問同樣是全教總的問題我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關學校的校事會議沒錯吧部長跟博長不管曹也都提到校事會議大家是不需要精進但是呢你們就有一位前\n36191\t65003\t這個主秘莊國榮教授他卻在上禮拜五的時候對於全教總他認為他是沒出息提到這個校式會議教育部完全沒有任何的一個說法那你點點沒事那我想請問他到底是吼給這個部長看指桑罵槐因為你明明告訴我們校式會議是要來做更精進的但是呢你卻沒有對於這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣子的羞辱的時候教育部卻完全沒有任何的部分所以教育部是默許嗎\n66721\t87371\t跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊\n87881\t96644\t他們有工作嗎 有吧沒有 就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似 但是教育部裡面沒錯 這就是一個重點啊但是呢 所有的權益修法教師法規 審判 霸凌學生身心調適全部 很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常多不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個\n115009\t118431\t我都要參加這麼多的話你們的法規處長在幹嘛?莊教授他基本上是法學背景當然在委員會法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家專業的一個學者是 非常多人可以去問卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚還有往下來去看特別是呢他提出來即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查部長\n140385\t142689\t你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們教一個學校就要十萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重\n156309\t159191\t但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛數這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯 而且這位前主委才會希望能夠讓老師有一個所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾\n184969\t199397\t千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎\n200598\t206620\t好接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整\n228388\t255925\t所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的就像是好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長\n257606\t282328\t對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟勞保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以勞保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍誰可以回答我這個問題\n285697\t306789\t那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務\n312952\t336793\t年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六讓看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這不是這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的這個公教人員需要做很多不同的方法就每四年這一個有這個政府CPI這個政府5%\n338695\t350284\t是 但是你跟其他 我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用 他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變 然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊\n361693\t389764\t所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間的關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力\n391448\t398663\t好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員\n","txt":"呃谢谢主席我们是不是请部长教育部部长好有请部长喂你好\n部長好我是提出第六十四條的修正動議但是在我進入主題之前我還是有個問題想問同樣是全教總的問題我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關學校的校事會議沒錯吧部長跟博長不管曹也都提到校事會議大家是不需要精進但是呢你們就有一位前\n這個主秘莊國榮教授他卻在上禮拜五的時候對於全教總他認為他是沒出息提到這個校式會議教育部完全沒有任何的一個說法那你點點沒事那我想請問他到底是吼給這個部長看指桑罵槐因為你明明告訴我們校式會議是要來做更精進的但是呢你卻沒有對於這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣子的羞辱的時候教育部卻完全沒有任何的部分所以教育部是默許嗎\n跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊\n他們有工作嗎 有吧沒有 就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似 但是教育部裡面沒錯 這就是一個重點啊但是呢 所有的權益修法教師法規 審判 霸凌學生身心調適全部 很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常多不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個\n我都要參加這麼多的話你們的法規處長在幹嘛?莊教授他基本上是法學背景當然在委員會法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家專業的一個學者是 非常多人可以去問卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚還有往下來去看特別是呢他提出來即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查部長\n你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們教一個學校就要十萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重\n但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛數這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯 而且這位前主委才會希望能夠讓老師有一個所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾\n千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎\n好接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整\n所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的就像是好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長\n對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟勞保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以勞保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍誰可以回答我這個問題\n那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務\n年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六讓看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這不是這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的這個公教人員需要做很多不同的方法就每四年這一個有這個政府CPI這個政府5%\n是 但是你跟其他 我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用 他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變 然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊\n所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間的關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力\n好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.210 --> 00:09.212\n呃谢谢主席我们是不是请部长教育部部长好有请部长喂你好\n\n00:15.120 --> 00:35.011\n部長好我是提出第六十四條的修正動議但是在我進入主題之前我還是有個問題想問同樣是全教總的問題我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關學校的校事會議沒錯吧部長跟博長不管曹也都提到校事會議大家是不需要精進但是呢你們就有一位前\n\n00:36.191 --> 01:05.003\n這個主秘莊國榮教授他卻在上禮拜五的時候對於全教總他認為他是沒出息提到這個校式會議教育部完全沒有任何的一個說法那你點點沒事那我想請問他到底是吼給這個部長看指桑罵槐因為你明明告訴我們校式會議是要來做更精進的但是呢你卻沒有對於這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣子的羞辱的時候教育部卻完全沒有任何的部分所以教育部是默許嗎\n\n01:06.721 --> 01:27.371\n跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊\n\n01:27.881 --> 01:36.644\n他們有工作嗎有吧沒有就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似但是教育部裡面沒錯這就是一個重點啊但是呢所有的權益修法教師法規審判霸凌學生身心調適全部很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常多不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個\n\n01:55.009 --> 01:58.431\n我都要參加這麼多的話你們的法規處長在幹嘛?莊教授他基本上是法學背景當然在委員會法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家專業的一個學者是非常多人可以去問卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚還有往下來去看特別是呢他提出來即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查部長\n\n02:20.385 --> 02:22.689\n你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們教一個學校就要十萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重\n\n02:36.309 --> 02:39.191\n但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛數這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯而且這位前主委才會希望能夠讓老師有一個所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾\n\n03:04.969 --> 03:19.397\n千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎\n\n03:20.598 --> 03:26.620\n好接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整\n\n03:48.388 --> 04:15.925\n所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的就像是好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長\n\n04:17.606 --> 04:42.328\n對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟勞保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以勞保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍誰可以回答我這個問題\n\n04:45.697 --> 05:06.789\n那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務\n\n05:12.952 --> 05:36.793\n年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六讓看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這不是這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的這個公教人員需要做很多不同的方法就每四年這一個有這個政府CPI這個政府5%\n\n05:38.695 --> 05:50.284\n是但是你跟其他我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊\n\n06:01.693 --> 06:29.764\n所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間的關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力\n\n06:31.448 --> 06:38.663\n好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.21,"end":9.212,"text":"呃谢谢主席我们是不是请部长教育部部长好有请部长喂你好"},{"start":15.12,"end":35.011,"text":"部長好我是提出第六十四條的修正動議但是在我進入主題之前我還是有個問題想問同樣是全教總的問題我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關學校的校事會議沒錯吧部長跟博長不管曹也都提到校事會議大家是不需要精進但是呢你們就有一位前"},{"start":36.191,"end":65.003,"text":"這個主秘莊國榮教授他卻在上禮拜五的時候對於全教總他認為他是沒出息提到這個校式會議教育部完全沒有任何的一個說法那你點點沒事那我想請問他到底是吼給這個部長看指桑罵槐因為你明明告訴我們校式會議是要來做更精進的但是呢你卻沒有對於這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣子的羞辱的時候教育部卻完全沒有任何的部分所以教育部是默許嗎"},{"start":66.721,"end":87.371,"text":"跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊"},{"start":87.881,"end":96.644,"text":"他們有工作嗎 有吧沒有 就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似 但是教育部裡面沒錯 這就是一個重點啊但是呢 所有的權益修法教師法規 審判 霸凌學生身心調適全部 很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常多不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個"},{"start":115.009,"end":118.431,"text":"我都要參加這麼多的話你們的法規處長在幹嘛?莊教授他基本上是法學背景當然在委員會法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家專業的一個學者是 非常多人可以去問卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚還有往下來去看特別是呢他提出來即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查部長"},{"start":140.385,"end":142.689,"text":"你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們教一個學校就要十萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重"},{"start":156.309,"end":159.191,"text":"但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛數這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯 而且這位前主委才會希望能夠讓老師有一個所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾"},{"start":184.969,"end":199.397,"text":"千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎"},{"start":200.598,"end":206.62,"text":"好接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整"},{"start":228.388,"end":255.925,"text":"所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的就像是好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長"},{"start":257.606,"end":282.328,"text":"對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟勞保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以勞保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍誰可以回答我這個問題"},{"start":285.697,"end":306.789,"text":"那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務"},{"start":312.952,"end":336.793,"text":"年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六讓看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這不是這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的這個公教人員需要做很多不同的方法就每四年這一個有這個政府CPI這個政府5%"},{"start":338.695,"end":350.284,"text":"是 但是你跟其他 我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用 他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變 然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊"},{"start":361.693,"end":389.764,"text":"所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間的關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力"},{"start":391.448,"end":398.663,"text":"好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時44分）謝謝主席。是不是請教育部部長？"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。我是提出第六十四條的修正動議，但是在進入主題之前，我還是有個問題想問，同樣是全教總的問題。我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關於學校的校事會議，沒錯吧？不管朝野都提到，校事會議必須要精進，但是你們有一位前主秘莊國榮教授卻在上禮拜五的時候提到，他認為全教總沒出息，還提到校事會議，而教育部完全沒有任何的說法，你「惦惦沒代誌」。我想請問，他是在吼給部長看、指桑罵槐嗎？因為你明明告訴我們，校事會議是要來做更精進的，但是當這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣羞辱的時候，教育部卻完全沒有任何表示，所以教育部是默許嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我確實沒有看到這一則新聞。"],["柯委員志恩：這在教育圈，那你現在看到了。還有，我還是必須要提出來，這真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在發聲，這位前主秘目前的角色是什麼？在教育部是擔任什麼工作？部長，莊國榮先生是在教育部擔任什麼工作？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有啊。"],["柯委員志恩：他沒有工作嗎？有吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，他可能有一些委員會……"],["柯委員志恩：類似諮詢委員的。"],["鄭部長英耀：但是他們在教育部裡面，他沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯，這就是一個重點啊！但是所有的權益修法，教師法法規、專審會辦法到霸凌防制準則、學生身心調適假規定，很多的會議完全是牽涉在其中，我正在思考，也有非常多不同的團體來告訴我，所以你們教育部都沒有其他的人了，就只信任他一個？如果都要參加這麼多的話，你們的法規處處長到底在幹嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，莊教授基本上是法學背景，當然，在法規委員會裡面有許多其他的法學專家、專業學者。"],["柯委員志恩：是，非常多人可以去問，卻是由他來做主導，部長，你應該澈底去把他查清楚。接著，特別是他提出來，即使證據薄弱，也要強行進入調查。部長，你去試試看，這麼多的老師，特別是高中以下的老師，如果有一些些的問題，只要有人出一張嘴，你們叫一個學校用10萬塊錢來做這樣的事情……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想莊教授從他的專業所表達的一些看法，我們尊重，但是基本上我們從校事會議來看，就是因為濫訴、沒有具名的指控太多……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有錯，而且這位前主秘……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們才會希望能夠讓老師有一個……"],["柯委員志恩：當然，所以我們才會希望能夠這樣，不要讓教師團體跟家長團體進入一個永無紛爭的情況，重點是，他還要負責你們1,300位教師團體的諮詢訓練。所以我只是提出來，有這麼多人可以用，你們人才濟濟，千萬不要只由一個人來主導，特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控，說他們沒出息的時候，部長，你身為一個部長，你也當過老師，你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益，這是你責無旁貸的角色，可以嗎？","接下來我們就來看一下，這個部分裡面有第六十七條的修正，前面已經有非常多人提到了，其實我們要修的也不過就是一個比較公平、公正的方法，沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言，絕對不會有這種事情，歷史不會再重演。但是我們只問一個，我們只要求像勞保條例、國民年金一樣，他們也都同樣規定要按照物價指數來做調整。所以很多時候，你看屬於老師的部分，還要由行政院會同考試院，考量國家經濟等等的來做，這就跟其他兩個法不一樣，這就好像我們去餐廳，三個人叫同樣三個套餐，其他兩個套餐都一樣，我這個套餐要不要上甜點，還要問一下廚師，我們問的就只是這個平等互惠的原則。部長，為什麼公教人員沒有辦法跟勞保跟國民年金一樣？我們只要求一樣、同等的對待，為什麼不行？勞保、農保、國民年金的規定，完全是只需要這樣一個處理，為什麼？差別在哪裡？部長，你未來也馬上會屬於退休教師的範圍，誰可以回答我這個問題？次長嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想當時公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例的修正，主要是有一個世代互助的精神。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啊！我們同樣，但我覺得這是兩碼子事，你看看大法官的解釋，隨物價指數核實調整，大法官解釋是，退撫給與之財產上價值，不隨時間經過而產生實質減少，這是政府的責任跟義務。年改前有這樣的規定，年改之後完全取消，改成調幾趴，需要過五關斬六將，看政府的臉色。所以這是一個公平對待的問題，你不能告訴我，別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做修正，退休的公教人員卻要採用不同的方法……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以第六十七條也確實做了修正，就是每四年有CPI正負百分之五……"],["柯委員志恩：是，但是跟其他相比，我剛剛就舉套餐為例，其他兩個就不用，他們在法規上就直接這樣規定啊！而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的，你不能因為時間改變，然後實質的減少，這個部分是法規上來做這樣的部分，我們只要求一個，跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已，第六十七條的修正是如此啊！所以我們提出一個非常卑微且很合理的要求，跟別人是一樣的。部長，你身為教育部部長，有這麼多老師同意，而且有這麼多退休的教職員，我不要提到他們對臺灣的貢獻，我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣？真的不論別人怎麼講，教育部都應該要據理力爭！時間關係，我尊重主席的時間，但是部長沒有給我回應。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：我的提醒之後呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會努力。"],["柯委員志恩：好，努力，反正我們距離審法條還有一些時間，我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力，好不好？時間關係，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員。因為今天登記發言的委員很多，所以聯席委員會的委員發言時間以6分鐘為限；非本聯席委員會的委員發言則以3分鐘為限。","接下來請萬美玲委員發言。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛第一個委員發言時間11分……主席要公平！"],["主席：接下來請萬委員。"],["萬委員美玲：我可以開始了嗎？"],["主席：可以。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}