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00:01:26,098\n啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下\n\n5\n00:01:27,219 --> 00:01:49,327\n有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難\n\n6\n00:01:50,948 --> 00:02:15,805\n我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠\n\n7\n00:02:16,886 --> 00:02:43,764\n我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務\n\n8\n00:02:46,343 --> 00:02:57,636\n在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人\n\n9\n00:02:58,772 --> 00:03:23,181\n年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行\n\n10\n00:03:24,824 --> 00:03:42,069\n好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本\n\n11\n00:03:44,216 --> 00:04:01,342\n我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以\n\n12\n00:04:03,303 --> 00:04:24,455\n我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年\n\n13\n00:04:24,995 --> 00:04:42,935\n下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第九次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來\n\n14\n00:04:43,656 --> 00:04:54,930\n整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年\n\n15\n00:04:55,373 --> 00:05:14,789\n提前三到四年所以有可能是127或128或129129就有可能用完那提早這四年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像\n\n16\n00:05:15,209 --> 00:05:37,100\n自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月10領退休所得你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那\n\n17\n00:05:40,422 --> 00:06:00,947\n跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好4.6萬其實這個差的很清楚5.84.6我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想\n\n18\n00:06:01,967 --> 00:06:29,895\n創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前呢是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止境的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦\n\n19\n00:06:33,357 --> 00:06:55,538\n根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個橫平性現職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能所\n\n20\n00:06:56,559 --> 00:07:10,074\n我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降降真的有符合公平公義嗎\n\n21\n00:07:12,056 --> 00:07:38,953\n目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路\n\n22\n00:07:39,814 --> 00:07:46,132\n我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8308\t22020\t好 那有請教育部次長 謝謝好 有請朱次長 謝謝好 次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來 我們來看一下來 第一張喔\n26058\t46849\t前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說\n50325\t63942\t未來會出現繳得少 退得早 領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一 經費不足二 行業不平三 世代不均這個是馬前總統說過的話我們來往下\n68457\t86098\t啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下\n87219\t109327\t有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難\n110948\t135805\t我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠\n136886\t163764\t我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務\n166343\t177636\t在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人\n178772\t203181\t年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事 淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行\n204824\t222069\t好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本\n224216\t241342\t我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以\n243303\t264455\t我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年\n264995\t282935\t下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第九次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來\n283656\t294930\t整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年\n295373\t314789\t提前三到四年所以有可能是127或128或129129就有可能用完那提早這四年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像\n315209\t337100\t自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月10領退休所得你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那\n340422\t360947\t跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數 經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好 4.6萬 其實這個差的很清楚5.8 4.6 我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想\n361967\t389895\t創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前呢是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止境的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦\n393357\t415538\t根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個橫平性現職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能所\n416559\t430074\t我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降降真的有符合公平公義嗎\n432056\t458953\t目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路\n459814\t466132\t我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席以上 謝謝\n","txt":"好 那有請教育部次長 謝謝好 有請朱次長 謝謝好 次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來 我們來看一下來 第一張喔\n前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說\n未來會出現繳得少 退得早 領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一 經費不足二 行業不平三 世代不均這個是馬前總統說過的話我們來往下\n啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下\n有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難\n我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠\n我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務\n在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人\n年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事 淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行\n好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本\n我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以\n我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年\n下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第九次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來\n整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年\n提前三到四年所以有可能是127或128或129129就有可能用完那提早這四年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像\n自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月10領退休所得你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那\n跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數 經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好 4.6萬 其實這個差的很清楚5.8 4.6 我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想\n創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前呢是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止境的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦\n根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個橫平性現職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能所\n我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降降真的有符合公平公義嗎\n目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路\n我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.308 --> 00:22.020\n好那有請教育部次長謝謝好有請朱次長謝謝好次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來我們來看一下來第一張喔\n\n00:26.058 --> 00:46.849\n前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說\n\n00:50.325 --> 01:03.942\n未來會出現繳得少退得早領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一經費不足二行業不平三世代不均這個是馬前總統說過的話我們來往下\n\n01:08.457 --> 01:26.098\n啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下\n\n01:27.219 --> 01:49.327\n有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難\n\n01:50.948 --> 02:15.805\n我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠\n\n02:16.886 --> 02:43.764\n我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務\n\n02:46.343 --> 02:57.636\n在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人\n\n02:58.772 --> 03:23.181\n年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行\n\n03:24.824 --> 03:42.069\n好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本\n\n03:44.216 --> 04:01.342\n我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以\n\n04:03.303 --> 04:24.455\n我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年\n\n04:24.995 --> 04:42.935\n下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第九次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來\n\n04:43.656 --> 04:54.930\n整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年\n\n04:55.373 --> 05:14.789\n提前三到四年所以有可能是127或128或129129就有可能用完那提早這四年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像\n\n05:15.209 --> 05:37.100\n自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月10領退休所得你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那\n\n05:40.422 --> 06:00.947\n跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好4.6萬其實這個差的很清楚5.84.6我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想\n\n06:01.967 --> 06:29.895\n創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前呢是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止境的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦\n\n06:33.357 --> 06:55.538\n根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個橫平性現職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能所\n\n06:56.559 --> 07:10.074\n我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降降真的有符合公平公義嗎\n\n07:12.056 --> 07:38.953\n目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路\n\n07:39.814 --> 07:46.132\n我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.308,"end":22.02,"text":"好 那有請教育部次長 謝謝好 有請朱次長 謝謝好 次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來 我們來看一下來 第一張喔"},{"start":26.058,"end":46.849,"text":"前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說"},{"start":50.325,"end":63.942,"text":"未來會出現繳得少 退得早 領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一 經費不足二 行業不平三 世代不均這個是馬前總統說過的話我們來往下"},{"start":68.457,"end":86.098,"text":"啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下"},{"start":87.219,"end":109.327,"text":"有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難"},{"start":110.948,"end":135.805,"text":"我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠"},{"start":136.886,"end":163.764,"text":"我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務"},{"start":166.343,"end":177.636,"text":"在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人"},{"start":178.772,"end":203.181,"text":"年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事 淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行"},{"start":204.824,"end":222.069,"text":"好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本"},{"start":224.216,"end":241.342,"text":"我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以"},{"start":243.303,"end":264.455,"text":"我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年"},{"start":264.995,"end":282.935,"text":"下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第九次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來"},{"start":283.656,"end":294.93,"text":"整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年"},{"start":295.373,"end":314.789,"text":"提前三到四年所以有可能是127或128或129129就有可能用完那提早這四年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像"},{"start":315.209,"end":337.1,"text":"自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月10領退休所得你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那"},{"start":340.422,"end":360.947,"text":"跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數 經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好 4.6萬 其實這個差的很清楚5.8 4.6 我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想"},{"start":361.967,"end":389.895,"text":"創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前呢是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止境的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦"},{"start":393.357,"end":415.538,"text":"根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個橫平性現職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能所"},{"start":416.559,"end":430.074,"text":"我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降降真的有符合公平公義嗎"},{"start":432.056,"end":458.953,"text":"目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路"},{"start":459.814,"end":466.132,"text":"我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時59分）有請教育部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請朱次長，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們今天一樣來討論公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例。我們來看一下，前總統馬英九在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候自己說了，就算再困難，年金改革也一定要做，要為彼此的未來而改革，為臺灣而改革，為下一代的安全而改革。我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話，尤其是很多國民黨委員，我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話。甚至當時馬前總統還說，未來會出現繳得少、退得早、領得多，這是他當時所說的話，同時會因為這樣產生三大問題：一、經費不足；二、行業不平；三、世代不均。這是馬前總統說過的話。啟動年金改革，蔡英文前總統也說「現在不做，以後會後悔」，不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到「現在不做，馬上就會後悔」。馬前總統只敢講不敢做，蔡英文總統講了也做了。我們來看一下，有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統，或是講小英總統說過什麼、什麼。這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席，也是2015年時代力量的黨主席，他當時上了一個電視節目，而且他就說了這樣的話，他說：不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題，而是這一代馬上要面對的災難，我們再也沒有拖延的時間，唯有誠實地面對問題，務實地提出解決方法，才有可能避免臺灣希臘化的惡夢。制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來，我們都在同一條船上，必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度。我很少同意他說過的話，但這一段我同意。為了避免說我造謠，我要提醒一下，當時他發言的時候沒有AI，也沒有深偽影片，我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：好。次長，你以後也會領相關年金對嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有可能，如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面，等到你退休、不做事的那一天，你會跟這一位老師一樣，不做事領的比做事還要多，有沒有可能？如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本。"],["朱次長俊彰：我想當時107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題，其實委員剛剛都點出來，第一個就是我們月退的起支年齡太低，退休的所得替代率過高，導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的。所以以現職人員來講，我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革，世代的互助，讓我們整個退撫基金可以永續，我想這是我們的目標。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。世代互助，你講到一個很關鍵重點，我們來看一下，如果按照現在的算法，目前你們預估，如果按照他們的第三十五條，有委員提出要停止逐年下調所得替代率的條文，這個是他們現在提出來的，在第三十五條。我想問一下教育部，目前預估退撫基金什麼時候會用完，如果還沒有修法的話？"],["朱次長俊彰：如果根據第9次精算的話，因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來，整個歸零的時間會是在131年，目前不管是從113年或114年停止調降的話，整個用罄的時間會再提前3年到4年。"],["陳委員培瑜：提前3年到4年，所以有可能是127年或128年？"],["朱次長俊彰：128年或129年。"],["陳委員培瑜：129年就有可能用完？"],["朱次長俊彰：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：提早4年，我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想，但是我猜想，他們一定會想那就政府來解決就好了，因為他們可能沒有想到，或者沒有意識到，或是不敢去想像自己還有可能重返執政，所以我必須要公開地說，他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文。我接下來想要繼續請問教育部，目前退休教職員平均每個月實領退休所得，你們有沒有一個平均數的計算？"],["朱次長俊彰：根據我們目前的計算，退休的教職員平均……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，平均。"],["朱次長俊彰：目前平均是5.8萬元。"],["陳委員培瑜：那跟國人的平均月收入比？而且是現職有在工作的喔！"],["朱次長俊彰：如果以主計總處經常性的月薪資所得，大概是4.65萬。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，4.6萬，其實這個差很清楚，5.8萬和4.6萬，我再說一次5.8萬跟4.6萬，我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想，創造出來這個世代不正義、世代不公平的部分，我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應，而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員，心裡面到底在想什麼。","再來，要討論第六十七條，一樣，他們提出來，有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題，我相信你們應該已經研究過了，目前是把「正、負百分之五」修改成「正百分之三」，也就是負的不去管，他只管正的一直加、一直加、一直加，無止盡地一直加上去，只會漲，不會跌啦，這樣對嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，其實在107年年改之後，針對月退已經有兩次的調整，總計已經是有6%了，如果要再做物價指數的調整，其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個衡平性，即現職有沒有調，以及我們要保障一個適足的經濟生活安全這一塊是不是合理。"],["陳委員培瑜：甚至我想要提出另外一個問題，他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半，可是如果物價指數降低，卻不用跟著降，這樣真的有符合公平、公義嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。目前第六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定，就是只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五，或是說即便沒有達到每四年，我們至少都會有一次檢討標準。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是你現在在做的版本，但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣喔！所以我剛才會問你，這個非常非常的不公平。我時間到了，我尊重主席，最後我要沉重地呼籲，我希望政策可以永續，我們希望可以兼顧世代正義，我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路，我要拜託所有在野黨委員，審慎地思考你們這一次提出來的修法，我也要拜託主席，好，以上，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來我們請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}