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\"end\": 305.235, \"score\": 0.868}]}, {\"start\": 305.675, \"end\": 327.491, \"text\": \"年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 305.675, \"end\": 305.955, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 305.955, \"end\": 306.376, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 306.376, \"end\": 306.496, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 306.496, \"end\": 306.596, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 306.596, \"end\": 306.756, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 306.756, \"end\": 306.936, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 306.936, \"end\": 307.176, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 307.176, \"end\": 307.436, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 307.436, \"end\": 307.637, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 307.637, \"end\": 307.777, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 307.777, 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\"end\": 326.891, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 326.891, \"end\": 327.051, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 327.051, \"end\": 327.211, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 327.211, \"end\": 327.391, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 327.391, \"end\": 327.471, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 327.471, \"end\": 327.491, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}]}, {\"start\": 329.252, \"end\": 345.021, \"text\": \"我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 329.252, \"end\": 329.653, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 329.653, \"end\": 329.893, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 329.893, \"end\": 330.173, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 330.173, \"end\": 330.713, 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\"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 335.956, \"end\": 336.096, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 336.096, \"end\": 336.236, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 336.236, \"end\": 336.456, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"扶\", \"start\": 336.456, \"end\": 336.576, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"航\", \"start\": 336.576, \"end\": 337.617, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 337.617, \"end\": 337.837, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 337.837, \"end\": 338.077, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 338.077, \"end\": 338.978, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 338.978, \"end\": 339.218, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 339.218, \"end\": 339.478, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 339.478, \"end\": 340.118, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", 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\"來\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 344.501, \"end\": 344.701, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"扶\", \"start\": 344.701, \"end\": 344.861, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"航\", \"start\": 344.861, \"end\": 345.001, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 345.001, \"end\": 345.021, \"score\": 0.108}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}]}, {\"start\": 348.632, \"end\": 373.712, \"text\": \"可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 348.632, \"end\": 348.772, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 348.772, \"end\": 348.912, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 348.912, \"end\": 349.293, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 349.293, \"end\": 349.613, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"航\", \"start\": 349.613, \"end\": 350.273, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": 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\"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 865.802, \"end\": 865.822, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 865.822, \"end\": 865.842, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 865.842, \"end\": 865.862, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:21,843\n我們先請這個顧部長還有我們海軍參謀長請部長海軍參謀長好是的吼那這個今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌玉的局長要求下屬服報預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎\n\n2\n00:00:23,307 --> 00:00:48,013\n各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行行政調查當中所以我們會秉持這個無完無中的原則來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的報導裡面是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面\n\n3\n00:00:49,574 --> 00:01:01,029\n這個呢海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個他涉嫌喔教唆我們的其他的公務人員們軍人們如何規避審計\n\n4\n00:01:04,674 --> 00:01:10,596\n第二個他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒為什麼我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊\n\n5\n00:01:31,624 --> 00:01:52,590\n你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點用騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用幾項計畫韓營商部長報告\n\n6\n00:01:59,707 --> 00:02:18,339\n請說啊是鮑偉那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清\n\n7\n00:02:18,999 --> 00:02:44,346\n那甚至以這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入他意思是他自己開的嘛不是跟你沒關係他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫細部的部分\n\n8\n00:02:47,875 --> 00:03:00,544\n報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的我知道大概有他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫幾項計畫\n\n9\n00:03:03,166 --> 00:03:21,065\n三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們\n\n10\n00:03:22,233 --> 00:03:38,049\n因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間\n\n11\n00:03:45,449 --> 00:03:52,994\n報委員他詳細的都有一些因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料會送到委員報對如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃有他的預算有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查怎麼可能會沒有資料\n\n12\n00:04:07,702 --> 00:04:22,436\n那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥編的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊\n\n13\n00:04:23,357 --> 00:04:45,632\n那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是好那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於呢我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統嘛那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備\n\n14\n00:04:49,445 --> 00:05:05,235\n是有的那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右\n\n15\n00:05:05,675 --> 00:05:27,491\n年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試\n\n16\n00:05:29,252 --> 00:05:45,021\n我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試\n\n17\n00:05:48,632 --> 00:06:13,712\n可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試\n\n18\n00:06:17,675 --> 00:06:21,318\n對嘛我剛問的是這個問題啊部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢參謀長告訴我說呢這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月\n\n19\n00:06:39,631 --> 00:06:56,347\n但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎\n\n20\n00:07:03,618 --> 00:07:30,675\n是的因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功說是9月的時候也說是現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動\n\n21\n00:07:31,736 --> 00:07:46,007\n那後面還有潛水測試深水測試那如果你在我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置\n\n22\n00:07:47,304 --> 00:07:49,506\n是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再\n\n23\n00:08:03,621 --> 00:08:20,950\n在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在五月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那\n\n24\n00:08:25,252 --> 00:08:47,089\n就有可能我們還要把這套設備白白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好應該是我們現在是有信心在你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況嘛有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎\n\n25\n00:08:47,990 --> 00:08:52,012\n那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的網路但是我們現在租了一整年對不對\n\n26\n00:09:00,714 --> 00:09:15,517\n我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分\n\n27\n00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:38,768\n你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下這個我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎\n\n28\n00:09:41,465 --> 00:09:59,124\n我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼柴油電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海軍軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠\n\n29\n00:10:02,087 --> 00:10:26,223\n是嘛但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來的幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該要自動充電我問你一下喔前三次沒有對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成還有問題還是你們覺得不需要\n\n30\n00:10:29,572 --> 00:10:51,933\n整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到成解決\n\n31\n00:10:52,954 --> 00:11:16,335\n問題在哪裡嘛你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做\n\n32\n00:11:17,161 --> 00:11:32,362\n跟委員報告就我的了解了那個是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以\n\n33\n00:11:33,743 --> 00:11:55,947\n相關的你的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第二第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛\n\n34\n00:12:01,408 --> 00:12:24,081\n那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有就是我們之前的服務行之前的服務行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服務行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊那你那你那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服務行來勒\n\n35\n00:12:25,083 --> 00:12:35,042\n我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊\n\n36\n00:12:36,386 --> 00:13:01,930\n對啊他點頭你隔壁的點頭你看我沒有意思參謀長是點頭的因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次所以後面要再做兩次對兩次的扶航不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準所以最後我問你個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁跟這張表是有出入\n\n37\n00:13:02,451 --> 00:13:12,273\n所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎\n\n38\n00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:38,850\n就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件\n\n39\n00:13:41,972 --> 00:13:56,865\n對啊那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方\n\n40\n00:13:57,205 --> 00:14:17,331\n如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛\n\n41\n00:14:18,712 --> 00:14:25,862\n這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t21843\t我們先請這個顧部長還有我們海軍參謀長請部長 海軍參謀長好 是的吼 那這個今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌玉的局長要求下屬服報預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎\n23307\t48013\t各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行行政調查當中所以我們會秉持這個無完無中的原則來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的報導裡面是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面\n49574\t61029\t這個呢 海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔 知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個 他涉嫌喔 教唆我們的其他的公務人員們 軍人們如何規避審計\n64674\t70596\t第二個他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒為什麼我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊\n91624\t112590\t你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點 用騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用 幾項計畫韓營商部長報告\n119707\t138339\t請說啊是 鮑偉那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清\n138999\t164346\t那甚至以這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入他意思是他自己開的嘛不是跟你沒關係他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫細部的部分\n167875\t180544\t報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的 我知道大概有他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫幾項計畫\n183166\t201065\t三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們\n202233\t218049\t因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間\n225449\t232994\t報委員他詳細的都有一些因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料會送到委員報對 如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃有他的預算有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查怎麼可能會沒有資料\n247702\t262436\t那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥編的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊\n263357\t285632\t那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是 報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是 好 那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於呢我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統嘛那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備\n289445\t305235\t是有的 那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到 效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候 你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右\n305675\t327491\t年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試\n329252\t345021\t我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試\n348632\t373712\t可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試\n377675\t381318\t對嘛 我剛問的是這個問題啊 部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是 很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢 參謀長告訴我說呢 這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月\n399631\t416347\t但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎\n423618\t450675\t是的 因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功 說是9月的時候也說是 現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢 就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動\n451736\t466007\t那後面還有潛水測試 深水測試那如果你在 我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置\n467304\t469506\t是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再\n483621\t500950\t在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在五月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那\n505252\t527089\t就有可能我們還要把這套設備白白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好應該是我們現在是有信心在你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況嘛有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎\n527990\t532012\t那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的網路但是我們現在租了一整年對不對\n540714\t555517\t我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分\n566840\t578768\t你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下這個我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎\n581465\t599124\t我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼 柴油 電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海軍軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠\n602087\t626223\t是嘛 但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來的幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該要自動充電 我問你一下喔前三次沒有 對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成 還有問題還是你們覺得不需要\n629572\t651933\t整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到成解決\n652954\t676335\t問題在哪裡嘛 你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三 為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢 你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢 你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試 結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做\n677161\t692362\t跟委員報告就我的了解了那個是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以\n693743\t715947\t相關的 你的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第二第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛\n721408\t744081\t那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有就是我們之前的服務行之前的服務行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服務行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊那你那你那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服務行來勒\n745083\t755042\t我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是 但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊\n756386\t781930\t對啊他點頭你隔壁的點頭你看我沒有意思參謀長是點頭的因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次所以後面要再做兩次對兩次的扶航不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準所以最後我問你個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁跟這張表是有出入\n782451\t792273\t所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎\n793710\t818850\t就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道 我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有 我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件\n821972\t836865\t對啊 那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方\n837205\t857331\t如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛\n858712\t865862\t這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝\n","txt":"我們先請這個顧部長還有我們海軍參謀長請部長 海軍參謀長好 是的吼 那這個今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌玉的局長要求下屬服報預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎\n各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行行政調查當中所以我們會秉持這個無完無中的原則來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的報導裡面是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面\n這個呢 海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔 知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個 他涉嫌喔 教唆我們的其他的公務人員們 軍人們如何規避審計\n第二個他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒為什麼我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊\n你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點 用騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用 幾項計畫韓營商部長報告\n請說啊是 鮑偉那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清\n那甚至以這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入他意思是他自己開的嘛不是跟你沒關係他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫細部的部分\n報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的 我知道大概有他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫幾項計畫\n三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們\n因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間\n報委員他詳細的都有一些因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料會送到委員報對 如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃有他的預算有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查怎麼可能會沒有資料\n那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥編的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊\n那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是 報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是 好 那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於呢我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統嘛那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備\n是有的 那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到 效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候 你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右\n年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試\n我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試\n可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試\n對嘛 我剛問的是這個問題啊 部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是 很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢 參謀長告訴我說呢 這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月\n但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎\n是的 因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功 說是9月的時候也說是 現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢 就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動\n那後面還有潛水測試 深水測試那如果你在 我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置\n是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再\n在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在五月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那\n就有可能我們還要把這套設備白白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好應該是我們現在是有信心在你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況嘛有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎\n那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的網路但是我們現在租了一整年對不對\n我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分\n你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下這個我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎\n我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼 柴油 電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海軍軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠\n是嘛 但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來的幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該要自動充電 我問你一下喔前三次沒有 對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成 還有問題還是你們覺得不需要\n整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到成解決\n問題在哪裡嘛 你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三 為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢 你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢 你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試 結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做\n跟委員報告就我的了解了那個是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以\n相關的 你的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第二第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛\n那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有就是我們之前的服務行之前的服務行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服務行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊那你那你那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服務行來勒\n我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是 但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊\n對啊他點頭你隔壁的點頭你看我沒有意思參謀長是點頭的因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次所以後面要再做兩次對兩次的扶航不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準所以最後我問你個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁跟這張表是有出入\n所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎\n就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道 我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有 我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件\n對啊 那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方\n如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛\n這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:21.843\n我們先請這個顧部長還有我們海軍參謀長請部長海軍參謀長好是的吼那這個今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌玉的局長要求下屬服報預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎\n\n00:23.307 --> 00:48.013\n各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行行政調查當中所以我們會秉持這個無完無中的原則來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的報導裡面是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面\n\n00:49.574 --> 01:01.029\n這個呢海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個他涉嫌喔教唆我們的其他的公務人員們軍人們如何規避審計\n\n01:04.674 --> 01:10.596\n第二個他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒為什麼我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊\n\n01:31.624 --> 01:52.590\n你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點用騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用幾項計畫韓營商部長報告\n\n01:59.707 --> 02:18.339\n請說啊是鮑偉那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清\n\n02:18.999 --> 02:44.346\n那甚至以這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入他意思是他自己開的嘛不是跟你沒關係他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫細部的部分\n\n02:47.875 --> 03:00.544\n報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的我知道大概有他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫幾項計畫\n\n03:03.166 --> 03:21.065\n三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們\n\n03:22.233 --> 03:38.049\n因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間\n\n03:45.449 --> 03:52.994\n報委員他詳細的都有一些因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料會送到委員報對如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃有他的預算有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查怎麼可能會沒有資料\n\n04:07.702 --> 04:22.436\n那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥編的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊\n\n04:23.357 --> 04:45.632\n那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是好那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於呢我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統嘛那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備\n\n04:49.445 --> 05:05.235\n是有的那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右\n\n05:05.675 --> 05:27.491\n年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試\n\n05:29.252 --> 05:45.021\n我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試\n\n05:48.632 --> 06:13.712\n可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試\n\n06:17.675 --> 06:21.318\n對嘛我剛問的是這個問題啊部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢參謀長告訴我說呢這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月\n\n06:39.631 --> 06:56.347\n但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎\n\n07:03.618 --> 07:30.675\n是的因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功說是9月的時候也說是現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動\n\n07:31.736 --> 07:46.007\n那後面還有潛水測試深水測試那如果你在我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置\n\n07:47.304 --> 07:49.506\n是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再\n\n08:03.621 --> 08:20.950\n在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在五月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那\n\n08:25.252 --> 08:47.089\n就有可能我們還要把這套設備白白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好應該是我們現在是有信心在你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況嘛有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎\n\n08:47.990 --> 08:52.012\n那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的網路但是我們現在租了一整年對不對\n\n09:00.714 --> 09:15.517\n我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分\n\n09:26.840 --> 09:38.768\n你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下這個我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎\n\n09:41.465 --> 09:59.124\n我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼柴油電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海軍軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠\n\n10:02.087 --> 10:26.223\n是嘛但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來的幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該要自動充電我問你一下喔前三次沒有對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成還有問題還是你們覺得不需要\n\n10:29.572 --> 10:51.933\n整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到成解決\n\n10:52.954 --> 11:16.335\n問題在哪裡嘛你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做\n\n11:17.161 --> 11:32.362\n跟委員報告就我的了解了那個是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以\n\n11:33.743 --> 11:55.947\n相關的你的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第二第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛\n\n12:01.408 --> 12:24.081\n那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有就是我們之前的服務行之前的服務行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服務行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊那你那你那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服務行來勒\n\n12:25.083 --> 12:35.042\n我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊\n\n12:36.386 --> 13:01.930\n對啊他點頭你隔壁的點頭你看我沒有意思參謀長是點頭的因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次所以後面要再做兩次對兩次的扶航不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準所以最後我問你個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁跟這張表是有出入\n\n13:02.451 --> 13:12.273\n所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎\n\n13:13.710 --> 13:38.850\n就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件\n\n13:41.972 --> 13:56.865\n對啊那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方\n\n13:57.205 --> 14:17.331\n如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛\n\n14:18.712 --> 14:25.862\n這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":21.843,"text":"我們先請這個顧部長還有我們海軍參謀長請部長 海軍參謀長好 是的吼 那這個今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌玉的局長要求下屬服報預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎"},{"start":23.307,"end":48.013,"text":"各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行行政調查當中所以我們會秉持這個無完無中的原則來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的報導裡面是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面"},{"start":49.574,"end":61.029,"text":"這個呢 海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔 知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個 他涉嫌喔 教唆我們的其他的公務人員們 軍人們如何規避審計"},{"start":64.674,"end":70.596,"text":"第二個他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒為什麼我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊"},{"start":91.624,"end":112.59,"text":"你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點 用騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用 幾項計畫韓營商部長報告"},{"start":119.707,"end":138.339,"text":"請說啊是 鮑偉那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清"},{"start":138.999,"end":164.346,"text":"那甚至以這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入他意思是他自己開的嘛不是跟你沒關係他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫細部的部分"},{"start":167.875,"end":180.544,"text":"報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的 我知道大概有他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫幾項計畫"},{"start":183.166,"end":201.065,"text":"三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們"},{"start":202.233,"end":218.049,"text":"因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間"},{"start":225.449,"end":232.994,"text":"報委員他詳細的都有一些因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料會送到委員報對 如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃有他的預算有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查怎麼可能會沒有資料"},{"start":247.702,"end":262.436,"text":"那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥編的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊"},{"start":263.357,"end":285.632,"text":"那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是 報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是 好 那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於呢我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統嘛那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備"},{"start":289.445,"end":305.235,"text":"是有的 那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到 效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候 你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右"},{"start":305.675,"end":327.491,"text":"年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試"},{"start":329.252,"end":345.021,"text":"我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試"},{"start":348.632,"end":373.712,"text":"可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試"},{"start":377.675,"end":381.318,"text":"對嘛 我剛問的是這個問題啊 部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是 很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢 參謀長告訴我說呢 這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月"},{"start":399.631,"end":416.347,"text":"但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎"},{"start":423.618,"end":450.675,"text":"是的 因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功 說是9月的時候也說是 現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢 就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動"},{"start":451.736,"end":466.007,"text":"那後面還有潛水測試 深水測試那如果你在 我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置"},{"start":467.304,"end":469.506,"text":"是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再"},{"start":483.621,"end":500.95,"text":"在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在五月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那"},{"start":505.252,"end":527.089,"text":"就有可能我們還要把這套設備白白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好應該是我們現在是有信心在你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況嘛有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":527.99,"end":532.012,"text":"那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的網路但是我們現在租了一整年對不對"},{"start":540.714,"end":555.517,"text":"我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分"},{"start":566.84,"end":578.768,"text":"你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下這個我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎"},{"start":581.465,"end":599.124,"text":"我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼 柴油 電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海軍軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠"},{"start":602.087,"end":626.223,"text":"是嘛 但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來的幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該要自動充電 我問你一下喔前三次沒有 對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成 還有問題還是你們覺得不需要"},{"start":629.572,"end":651.933,"text":"整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到成解決"},{"start":652.954,"end":676.335,"text":"問題在哪裡嘛 你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三 為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢 你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢 你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試 結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做"},{"start":677.161,"end":692.362,"text":"跟委員報告就我的了解了那個是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以"},{"start":693.743,"end":715.947,"text":"相關的 你的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第二第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛"},{"start":721.408,"end":744.081,"text":"那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有就是我們之前的服務行之前的服務行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服務行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊那你那你那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服務行來勒"},{"start":745.083,"end":755.042,"text":"我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是 但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊"},{"start":756.386,"end":781.93,"text":"對啊他點頭你隔壁的點頭你看我沒有意思參謀長是點頭的因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次所以後面要再做兩次對兩次的扶航不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準所以最後我問你個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁跟這張表是有出入"},{"start":782.451,"end":792.273,"text":"所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎"},{"start":793.71,"end":818.85,"text":"就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道 我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有 我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件"},{"start":821.972,"end":836.865,"text":"對啊 那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方"},{"start":837.205,"end":857.331,"text":"如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛"},{"start":858.712,"end":865.862,"text":"這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時3分）謝謝主席，先請顧部長還有海軍參謀長。"],["主席：請部長和海軍參謀長。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天媒體報導提到海軍大氣海洋局林倉玉局長要求下屬浮報預算，對於這件事情，請問你們目前有瞭解跟掌握嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這件事情海軍已經在進行行政調查，我們會秉持毋枉毋縱的原則來做相關的調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：我先說明一下，媒體報導裡面提到，去年5月在準備國土安全韌性預算的會議裡面，林倉玉局長知道自己其實可以拿到很多預算，第一，他竟然涉嫌教唆其他軍人規避審計，第二，他叫大家預算多寫一點，能騙就騙，第三，他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億。我們看到這則新聞的時候覺得非常非常憤怒！為什麼？我們才剛通過這麼多預算，當時只要像馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出一些預算刪減等等的提案，你們是如何哭天喊地啊！你們是如何說這些預算是你們非常需要的啊！結果原來你們裡面的局長直接叫下屬預算多寫一點、用騙的，還說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億！我先請問一下大氣海洋局在韌性特別預算裡面，總共申請了多少費用、幾項計畫？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因為媒體並沒有先跟本部查詢，也沒有跟當事人做過查證，所以針對相關資料，我們已經正式立案進行調查，但是我們也初步發現有些資訊還需要釐清，甚至以您剛才所提的防禦韌性，其實在去年5月份的時候，整個預算規劃和其他部分在時間節點上是有點出入的……"],["徐委員巧芯：他的意思是他自己開的嘛！不是……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。另外要跟委員報告的就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：跟你們沒關係，是他自己開的嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛問的問題是，因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了，那我要問的是，大氣海洋局最終跟你們申請的是多少經費、幾項計畫？細部的部分。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，主要是大氣局必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：他們有3棟大樓要實施興建，大概需要16億到17億的預算，還有一些東南沙的……"],["徐委員巧芯：幾項計畫？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：3項設施。"],["徐委員巧芯：3項設施的計畫大概17億左右，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：17.5億這個數字跟報導內容相當一致。我必須要講，請你們提供這3項計畫的完整說明，因為我們要知道我們核過這個預算之後，它到底有沒有被正常使用？還是它其實已經變成一個弊案，或者是他真的有多、浮報預算？所以這個部分是不是可以請你把你剛剛講的3項計畫、17億的相關細節的報告提供給外交及國防委員會的委員？需要多久時間？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因為這是上週才剛通過的預算，都還沒有開始執行……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是計畫寫了嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：計畫部分我們到時候會綜整資料送到委員辦公室。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果你們自己都沒有計畫，立案是要調查什麼呢？一定是有它的計畫、有它的預算、有它的細項，你們才有調查的可能性啊！既然你都說已經立案調查了，怎麼可能會沒有資料？既然有資料，為什麼不能給我們？今天是立法院通過的預算，如果裡面有浮編的情形、如果裡面有騙預算、騙人民納稅錢的情形，立法委員當然要知道啊！不然我們要怎麼討論接下來的預算並讓它通過？如果每個局處都這樣子的話，還審什麼預算呢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我剛剛已經說過會把資料綜整好，送到委員辦公室。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。","接下來是海鯤號的部分，你們在潛航測試裡面要驗證戰鬥系統，請問是否有向美方租借操雷驗測的裝備？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們租借的效期是到明年。"],["徐委員巧芯：從什麼時候到什麼時候？你不要只講到明年。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：從今年5月份到明年年中左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：年中？所以是借一年？你可以講直接一點，一年就一年嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是從今年5月起租，租到明年5月。現在我看到你們寫的是浮航測試目前只執行3次而已，請問第4次預計要在什麼時候開始測試？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們現在正在做潛航前的準備，自動充電……"],["徐委員巧芯：潛航前的準備？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是浮航測試不是只執行了3次嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們現在是說，在進行浮航的時候就會以淺水潛航的　標準來進行浮航的測試啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：可是淺水潛航測試也是有一定測試數量的啊！"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們會在進行浮航測試之後，再進行淺水潛航測試，但這個浮航測試的標準，就會以達到淺水潛航的標準來進行浮航的測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：我請問一下，你們要驗證操雷的這個部分，你們是要規劃在浮航測試裡面測試，還是淺水潛航測試裡面測試呢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：淺水潛航的時候測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！我剛剛問的是這個問題啊！部長，你跟我講一些雞同鴨講的，沒有意義嘛！我剛剛問的問題是很簡單的，我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統，所以我們向美國去租借了操雷檢測的裝備，剛才參謀長告訴我這個租借的期程是今年5月到明年5月，但是你現在才在做浮航測試，而這個租借的設備要測試是要到淺水潛航測試的時候才要來做，所以你們有信心跟把握，在明年5月我們租借完成之前，你就完成淺水潛航測試，關於操雷檢測的部分嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是的？我現在對你們很不信任，因為你們每次都跟我說是。4月的時候，問海測可以成功嗎？你說是，9月的時候，也說是，但是現在也都沒有。所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是，到底到時候能不能夠做到？因為我們看到的是目前浮航測試也不過進行到超過一半左右，然後就已經進廠休息，一直要到比較後面的時候，你們才要重新啟動，後面還有淺水測試、深水測試。我問一個問題，如果在明年5月的時候，你們還沒有完成操雷的驗測，這一套向美方租借的系統該如何處置？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，依照合約，我們盡力來達成，如果有執行上困難，我們執行上會申請租約再延後。"],["徐委員巧芯：是直接可以往後再延後，還是必須要跟美方再……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們會再協調，然後再……"],["徐委員巧芯：再協調？所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來，沒有這段過程，是嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：這比較牽扯到協調細節的，原則上，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有可能有這段過程，對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：有可能有這段過程的話，假設你們在5月之前沒有把操雷測驗完成檢測，那就有可能我們把這一套設備白白租借了一年。請問租借這個花多少錢，這是可以說的嗎？如果是機密就別說，好不好？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們現在有信心在明年5月……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們每次都有信心，所以我要問假設沒有辦法完成的情況，有信心的話，當然就沒事，但是我要問的是，如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事？這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：現在手頭上沒有資料。報告委員，因為這個只是時間上往右去爭取……"],["徐委員巧芯：你時間上往右，但是我們現在租了一整年，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：金錢上面的花費並不……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們租了一整年，但如果你在明年5月之前，你沒有完成操雷檢驗，那就可能像我們剛剛講的，要還到美國去，再把它租回來，這一來一往的時間，不是又會再拖到我們的淺水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎？對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，不會。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不會？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：因為我們都會平行協調……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們每次都說不會。我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分，你們就連在這個電力管理上面都不斷地在往後拖延。我問一下，我們這次浮航測試，測了三次，出去的時候，有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們這次出去的時候，還沒有用到自動充電……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有用到自動充電設備，所以我們是用什麼？柴油、電？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，整個就是它的主機產生電力之後到它的推進系統，我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到，重點就是要驗測海鯤軍艦在設計的時候，它的動力系統能夠順利……"],["徐委員巧芯：是嘛，但我現在在問你的是，關於有自動充電的部分，我們在測試這三次裡面有沒有做，後續接下來幾次有沒有要做？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：後面的部分，所以剛才部長提到我們下次的浮航，就是用潛航的標準，就要自動充電才會再出去。"],["徐委員巧芯：其實你們早就應該用自動充電。我問一下，前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼？是因為還沒有完成、還有問題，還是你們覺得不需要？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，整個測試的部分要能夠儘早確認動力系統是完整的，我們要早發現問題、解決問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，但是這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：當初……"],["徐委員巧芯：這兩件事有衝突嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試，我們出海的時間會更延後，我們必須要把問題找到，才能解決問題，這是一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：問題在哪裡嘛？你說要把問題找到才能解決，為什麼你前三次都只能做這個測試，你要第四次才能做自動充電相關的測試，因為你好不容易切斷了岸上的系統，然後你能夠浮航出去，大多數的人都認為我們在自動充電這一塊也已經做了相關測試，結果做了三次都沒有，你現在告訴我第四次才要做。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就我的了解，是在淺水潛航的這個階段，自動充電的這個功能才需要具備，我們這一次在浮航的階段也讓它以淺水潛航的標準，所以完成了自動充電才會再做浮航。所以相關的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你的圖表是這樣寫嘛！但是在潛航的部分，你在報告第2頁裡面就寫了主機與電力管理系統的部分，其實你看你後面的第3頁第2點，主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合，所以這是為什麼你們後續的期程調整了時間、比較慢的原因嘛，你怎麼會講這是要到後面呢？你自己剛剛講的話跟你報告第2頁還有第3頁就已經矛盾了。"],["顧部長立雄：我們之前浮航的標準不需要達到自動充電，但是我們後續的浮航跟淺水潛航都要達到自動充電，這個意思就是如此。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果你在淺水潛航再測試就好的話，你為什麼先前要把它拿到浮航來呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在浮航的測試打算以淺水潛航的標準來進行，在下一階段的浮航測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，但是你的次數沒有改變，你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊！對啊！他點頭，你隔壁的點頭，你看我沒有意思，參謀長是點頭的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，現在就是我們浮航五次嘛，前面做了三次，所以後面要再做兩次的浮航……"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：兩次的浮航，部長剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的浮航就用潛航的標準來做，就是說潛航標準才會測到要用自動充電……"],["徐委員巧芯：最後我問你一個問題，因為你們現在講的跟這張表有出入。所以你在浮航測試的接下來兩次，跟這次淺水潛航裡面，有哪一些是要提到浮航的時候來做的？你剛剛講充電，你要往前移嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：不是，自動充電本來在淺水潛航要具備條件……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我聽得懂。"],["顧部長立雄：現在我們把浮航也要具備自動充電，再進行下一次浮航……"],["徐委員巧芯：我聽得懂嘛，所以我的意思是，你在淺水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些，比如像充電能力，你就往前面浮航去提了啊，你就說你在浮航的時候，你就要具備這個能力啦！所以我才發現你第1頁的表格跟你後面第2頁、第3頁有矛盾跟衝突。因為時間的關係……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，我們只是從嚴要求我們下一次浮航的條件，讓淺水潛航達到安全……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！既然你有這樣子的要求，那麼為什麼你提供給我們的報告不是這樣子呢？請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們，說明清楚，好不好？不要讓你們的報告第1頁跟第2頁、第3頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方。如果你們要多做，當然很好，我支持！能夠做得越完善越好，能夠推進的時間越快越好，安全起見、安全優先，我也同意，但是如果你們有要把淺水潛航測試裡面的一些部分，在浮航的時候，你就要做，那很好啊，寫清楚嘛，讓我們知道嘛！這樣我們才有能力去監督它，才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否有按時、按情況完成。好嗎？時間的關係，我們到這裡，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。好，部長現在要先離開。","接下來我們請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}}