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00:00:14,747\n麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好\n\n2\n00:00:15,538 --> 00:00:38,118\n部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響\n\n3\n00:00:39,219 --> 00:01:07,514\n在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質今天都有看你的報告嘛氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道甚至各類暗場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質\n\n4\n00:01:08,415 --> 00:01:09,703\n那所以\n\n5\n00:01:10,871 --> 00:01:40,371\n我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力\n\n6\n00:01:41,131 --> 00:02:08,807\n但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高值化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較\n\n7\n00:02:10,668 --> 00:02:25,469\n所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的不要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫\n\n8\n00:02:26,910 --> 00:02:46,300\n報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收的一個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生的突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過\n\n9\n00:02:47,000 --> 00:03:13,910\n所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重\n\n10\n00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:40,738\n貴重金屬被完整的回收報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上\n\n11\n00:03:43,493 --> 00:03:58,289\n廢棄碼修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理場端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證\n\n12\n00:04:01,072 --> 00:04:26,699\n再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎\n\n13\n00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:44,886\n包委員這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有要求我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法\n\n14\n00:04:45,986 --> 00:05:14,496\n這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理\n\n15\n00:05:15,703 --> 00:05:40,236\n目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰\n\n16\n00:05:41,036 --> 00:06:01,881\n我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼\n\n17\n00:06:02,646 --> 00:06:24,968\n包委員因為那個各種的工業喔他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電呢其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前的我們\n\n18\n00:06:25,789 --> 00:06:53,690\n當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且他是有利於淨零的但是他對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧\n\n19\n00:06:54,358 --> 00:07:11,561\n空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊\n\n20\n00:07:12,222 --> 00:07:41,160\n我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點\n\n21\n00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:56,129\n所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵\n\n22\n00:07:58,710 --> 00:08:13,024\n這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議就是為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電場破壞\n\n23\n00:08:13,744 --> 00:08:35,381\n山坡違規開發被撤照之後河山場的周邊海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突\n\n24\n00:08:37,503 --> 00:08:59,191\n最後三點建議第一個社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序減少不必要的爭議還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準讓制度更有預測性\n\n25\n00:08:59,691 --> 00:09:20,516\n避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制因為我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和\n\n26\n00:09:22,276 --> 00:09:37,040\n我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長\n\n27\n00:09:46,567 --> 00:10:12,123\n委員好剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做他們目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的\n\n28\n00:10:12,857 --> 00:10:35,206\n數量的這個肥瘦的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年\n\n29\n00:10:36,326 --> 00:10:53,820\n根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在\n\n30\n00:10:54,540 --> 00:11:22,040\n也會畫設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短那個時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查程序重疊我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議\n\n31\n00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:43,788\n投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓20262030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間\n\n32\n00:11:46,323 --> 00:12:11,962\n謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向那目前我們從今年的3月開始去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開\n\n33\n00:12:13,163 --> 00:12:38,431\n透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個深色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程\n\n34\n00:12:39,659 --> 00:12:42,325\n第二能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程\n\n35\n00:12:48,074 --> 00:13:13,700\n原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相\n\n36\n00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:39,919\n相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地\n\n37\n00:13:40,519 --> 00:13:55,239\n那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位\n\n38\n00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:24,394\n國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你次長這邊我們如何盤點流程簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進部在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8354\t14747\t麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好\n15538\t38118\t部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響\n39219\t67514\t在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質今天都有看你的報告嘛氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道甚至各類暗場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質\n68415\t69703\t那所以\n70871\t100371\t我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力\n101131\t128807\t但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高值化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較\n130668\t145469\t所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的不要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫\n146910\t166300\t報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收的一個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生的突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過\n167000\t193910\t所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重\n195150\t220738\t貴重金屬被完整的回收報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上\n223493\t238289\t廢棄碼修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理場端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證\n241072\t266699\t再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎\n267839\t284886\t包委員 這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有要求我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法\n285986\t314496\t這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後 青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理\n315703\t340236\t目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰\n341036\t361881\t我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼\n362646\t384968\t包委員因為那個各種的工業喔他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電呢其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前的我們\n385789\t413690\t當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且他是有利於淨零的但是他對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧\n414358\t431561\t空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊\n432222\t461160\t我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點\n462180\t476129\t所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵\n478710\t493024\t這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議就是為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電場破壞\n493744\t515381\t山坡違規開發被撤照之後河山場的周邊海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突\n517503\t539191\t最後三點建議 第一個社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序 減少不必要的爭議還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準讓制度更有預測性\n539691\t560516\t避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制因為我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和\n562276\t577040\t我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長\n586567\t612123\t委員好 剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做 他們目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的\n612857\t635206\t數量的這個肥瘦的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年\n636326\t653820\t根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在\n654540\t682040\t也會畫設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短那個時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查 程序重疊我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議\n682680\t703788\t投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓2026 2030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間\n706323\t731962\t謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向那目前我們從今年的3月開始去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開\n733163\t758431\t透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個深色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程\n759659\t762325\t第二能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程\n768074\t793700\t原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相\n794460\t819919\t相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地\n820519\t835239\t那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位\n836700\t864394\t國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你 次長這邊我們如何盤點流程 簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進部在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題 謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員\n","txt":"麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好\n部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響\n在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質今天都有看你的報告嘛氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道甚至各類暗場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質\n那所以\n我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力\n但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高值化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較\n所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的不要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫\n報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收的一個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生的突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過\n所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重\n貴重金屬被完整的回收報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上\n廢棄碼修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理場端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證\n再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎\n包委員 這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有要求我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法\n這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後 青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理\n目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰\n我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼\n包委員因為那個各種的工業喔他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電呢其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前的我們\n當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且他是有利於淨零的但是他對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧\n空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊\n我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點\n所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵\n這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議就是為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電場破壞\n山坡違規開發被撤照之後河山場的周邊海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突\n最後三點建議 第一個社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序 減少不必要的爭議還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準讓制度更有預測性\n避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制因為我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和\n我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長\n委員好 剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做 他們目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的\n數量的這個肥瘦的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年\n根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在\n也會畫設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短那個時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查 程序重疊我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議\n投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓2026 2030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間\n謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向那目前我們從今年的3月開始去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開\n透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個深色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程\n第二能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程\n原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相\n相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地\n那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位\n國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你 次長這邊我們如何盤點流程 簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進部在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題 謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.354 --> 00:14.747\n麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好\n\n00:15.538 --> 00:38.118\n部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響\n\n00:39.219 --> 01:07.514\n在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質今天都有看你的報告嘛氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道甚至各類暗場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質\n\n01:08.415 --> 01:09.703\n那所以\n\n01:10.871 --> 01:40.371\n我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力\n\n01:41.131 --> 02:08.807\n但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高值化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較\n\n02:10.668 --> 02:25.469\n所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的不要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫\n\n02:26.910 --> 02:46.300\n報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收的一個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生的突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過\n\n02:47.000 --> 03:13.910\n所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重\n\n03:15.150 --> 03:40.738\n貴重金屬被完整的回收報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上\n\n03:43.493 --> 03:58.289\n廢棄碼修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理場端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證\n\n04:01.072 --> 04:26.699\n再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎\n\n04:27.839 --> 04:44.886\n包委員這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有要求我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法\n\n04:45.986 --> 05:14.496\n這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理\n\n05:15.703 --> 05:40.236\n目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰\n\n05:41.036 --> 06:01.881\n我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼\n\n06:02.646 --> 06:24.968\n包委員因為那個各種的工業喔他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電呢其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前的我們\n\n06:25.789 --> 06:53.690\n當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且他是有利於淨零的但是他對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧\n\n06:54.358 --> 07:11.561\n空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊\n\n07:12.222 --> 07:41.160\n我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點\n\n07:42.180 --> 07:56.129\n所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵\n\n07:58.710 --> 08:13.024\n這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議就是為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電場破壞\n\n08:13.744 --> 08:35.381\n山坡違規開發被撤照之後河山場的周邊海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突\n\n08:37.503 --> 08:59.191\n最後三點建議第一個社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序減少不必要的爭議還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準讓制度更有預測性\n\n08:59.691 --> 09:20.516\n避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制因為我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和\n\n09:22.276 --> 09:37.040\n我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長\n\n09:46.567 --> 10:12.123\n委員好剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做他們目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的\n\n10:12.857 --> 10:35.206\n數量的這個肥瘦的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年\n\n10:36.326 --> 10:53.820\n根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在\n\n10:54.540 --> 11:22.040\n也會畫設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短那個時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查程序重疊我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議\n\n11:22.680 --> 11:43.788\n投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓20262030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間\n\n11:46.323 --> 12:11.962\n謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向那目前我們從今年的3月開始去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開\n\n12:13.163 --> 12:38.431\n透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個深色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程\n\n12:39.659 --> 12:42.325\n第二能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程\n\n12:48.074 --> 13:13.700\n原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相\n\n13:14.460 --> 13:39.919\n相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地\n\n13:40.519 --> 13:55.239\n那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位\n\n13:56.700 --> 14:24.394\n國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你次長這邊我們如何盤點流程簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進部在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.354,"end":14.747,"text":"麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好"},{"start":15.538,"end":38.118,"text":"部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響"},{"start":39.219,"end":67.514,"text":"在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質今天都有看你的報告嘛氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道甚至各類暗場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質"},{"start":68.415,"end":69.703,"text":"那所以"},{"start":70.871,"end":100.371,"text":"我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力"},{"start":101.131,"end":128.807,"text":"但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高值化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較"},{"start":130.668,"end":145.469,"text":"所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的不要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫"},{"start":146.91,"end":166.3,"text":"報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收的一個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生的突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過"},{"start":167,"end":193.91,"text":"所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重"},{"start":195.15,"end":220.738,"text":"貴重金屬被完整的回收報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上"},{"start":223.493,"end":238.289,"text":"廢棄碼修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理場端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證"},{"start":241.072,"end":266.699,"text":"再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎"},{"start":267.839,"end":284.886,"text":"包委員 這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有要求我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法"},{"start":285.986,"end":314.496,"text":"這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後 青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理"},{"start":315.703,"end":340.236,"text":"目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰"},{"start":341.036,"end":361.881,"text":"我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼"},{"start":362.646,"end":384.968,"text":"包委員因為那個各種的工業喔他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電呢其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前的我們"},{"start":385.789,"end":413.69,"text":"當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且他是有利於淨零的但是他對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧"},{"start":414.358,"end":431.561,"text":"空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊"},{"start":432.222,"end":461.16,"text":"我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點"},{"start":462.18,"end":476.129,"text":"所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵"},{"start":478.71,"end":493.024,"text":"這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議就是為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電場破壞"},{"start":493.744,"end":515.381,"text":"山坡違規開發被撤照之後河山場的周邊海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突"},{"start":517.503,"end":539.191,"text":"最後三點建議 第一個社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序 減少不必要的爭議還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準讓制度更有預測性"},{"start":539.691,"end":560.516,"text":"避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制因為我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和"},{"start":562.276,"end":577.04,"text":"我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長"},{"start":586.567,"end":612.123,"text":"委員好 剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做 他們目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的"},{"start":612.857,"end":635.206,"text":"數量的這個肥瘦的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年"},{"start":636.326,"end":653.82,"text":"根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在"},{"start":654.54,"end":682.04,"text":"也會畫設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短那個時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查 程序重疊我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議"},{"start":682.68,"end":703.788,"text":"投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓2026 2030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間"},{"start":706.323,"end":731.962,"text":"謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向那目前我們從今年的3月開始去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開"},{"start":733.163,"end":758.431,"text":"透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個深色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程"},{"start":759.659,"end":762.325,"text":"第二能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程"},{"start":768.074,"end":793.7,"text":"原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相"},{"start":794.46,"end":819.919,"text":"相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地"},{"start":820.519,"end":835.239,"text":"那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位"},{"start":836.7,"end":864.394,"text":"國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你 次長這邊我們如何盤點流程 簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進部在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題 謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時7分）麻煩彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。我想今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造訊息的問題，我相信國人也都很支持再生能源，可是也希望你要去釐清民眾對於錯假訊息的一些疑慮，比如說光電場設好之後，對環境會不會有影響，在土地、海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質，今天都有看到你的報告，氣體或污水，也就是你在報告裡面呈現的這些東西是不是能夠讓大家知道，甚至各類案場到底如何清潔，這部分有沒有規範？如果是破損、破裂的光電板長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中，剛剛聽你講大概有三個月的時間，事實上也沒有溶出有害物質。所以我認為除了對外說明以外，還要去闢謠，否則民眾會不安，可是我們還是要來討論一個問題，雖然這些材料不會產生污染，不會在地分解，可是還是要處理，所以重點是在後端的維護、回收跟破損的清運不能隨便處理。","部長，光電板是再生能源的主力，但不能只談裝得快不快，要問的是回收跟清潔得夠不夠確實，現在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約是5萬公噸，根本不夠2039年所預估的10萬公噸，當然我關心的不只是量，還有質，全循環高值化的處理每個月只有650公噸，大多是比較低階的，所以看起來我們高值化的質OK的只有650公噸，所以大部分還是處在低階、破碎、價值不高的，比較浪費資源。所以部長，政府到底有沒有具體的時程以及擴增計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於回收，其實現在有好幾家中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請可以處理回收的光電板，我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能出來，因為這一次其實是突然來了十幾萬片，從來沒有遇過，全世界也沒有遇過，等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習，但是我相信有這次經驗之後，在這個流程、程序上，甚至委員提到的廢清法，還有我們的資源循環促進法，未來我們都會把這個概念融入進去這兩個法裡面。"],["林委員月琴：對，那是什麼時候？因為我剛剛有提到，不是只有量，還要考慮到質的部分，什麼時候能夠讓高值化技術變成主流，讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重金屬被完整回收？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在我們看到幾家業者中，最多的那一家在苗栗，已經可以全回收到92%，有一家做得很好，可是它的費用比較貴，可以做到99%全回收，因為我們也考量到這是市場機制的供需，所以我們希望未來都可以達到99%以上。"],["林委員月琴：廢清法修法後能不能一路追蹤到應用端？因為現在回收流程只能追到處理廠端，後端再生料流向沒有人管，循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["林委員月琴：再來，我們來問費用跟制度的問題，因為環團跟我反映，主計月刊估算到2045年頂多收173億，但處理成本是397億，落差224億，再加上業者的欠費高達將近4億元，這樣的制度怎麼永續？另外，有符合污染者付費的原則嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們現在算是針對過去那4家的量能來算，而且以前沒有過量那麼大的經歷，現在我有要求同仁說是不是可以再算一次，甚至可以跟能源署說……因為如果未來廢清法或是資源循環促進法通過的話，我們是希望由環境部來協助管理太陽能板的回收，這會比較明確，現在是交給他們，當然，以目前來看的話，這個費用跟現實上是有差距的。"],["林委員月琴：是，落差很大。"],["彭部長啓明：委員說的的確是一個重點，我們未來就是要跟能源署協商、討論這個話題，我們希望能夠解決委員提到的這個問題，的確是有差距的。"],["林委員月琴：好。部長，還有有關風災後清運不確實，環境部準備怎麼處理怠惰的業者？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在擁有的工具就是廢清法，所以包含那一家很不努力的業者，都一直持續在罰，我們也會動員我們的稽查去巡檢，如果它還持續，就會持續再開罰，我們目前只有這樣的工具。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長，我要提醒你，上面這些問題如果不補起來，所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠、後端灰，我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會協作需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來，再麻煩部長這邊。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：關於光電案場的環評，我想先請你說明，這跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同，以及目前的對應機制是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為各種工業一蓋下去之後，可能會持續污染整個環境，而光電放在那個地方，其實不會污染，基本上它會製造很多的能源，所以如果我們把同樣的面積跟工業區擺在一起，其實不大相等，這部分我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的概念。雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突，而且它是有利於淨零的，但是在生態的部分，與社區民眾的感覺之間還是有一些差距，所以如果大家有疑慮，我也認為我們在環評或檢核機制或是跟社會溝通的部分做得更好之後，我們再來往下做。"],["林委員月琴：對，太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧空間、生態、人文等影響，並與環評制度來做銜接，可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮，甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的制度。部長，你覺得問題出在哪邊？"],["彭部長啓明：我覺得可能是因為過去我們一直要急於衝量，在溝通上面可能比較不足，我相信經過這一、兩年，大家有提出一些不一樣的意見之後，大家坐下來談，甚至我們本部也願意針對大家所認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊主動來做研究，我希望未來在短期的半年到一、兩年內能夠把這個問題再更釐清，然後才持續往前走，但是我必須說，一定要有一個平衡點。"],["林委員月琴：所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣、水跟廢棄物的污染，而是土地利用的衝突，包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題，這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵，這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策，衝突可能就會越來越大，所以我這邊有三點建議，我為什麼會這樣提呢？像高雄和山里光電場破壞山坡、違規開發被撤照之後，和山光電場周邊也出現泥流，引發生態疑慮；彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生，卻也因為生態疑慮而爭議不斷，這些都說明我們環社檢核制度觀念上正確，可是沒有辦法防範風險、回應地方的衝突。所以有三點建議：第一個，社會、生態、經濟、人文影響的評估機制要完善化，避免事後對立；第二個，分級處理環境風險，對影響低的項目簡化程序，減少不必要的爭議；還有針對大型的開發案，明確訂出規模及累積開發的標準，讓制度更有預測性，避免模糊空間被濫用。部長，這三點可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，委員你的建議，事實上是我們現在最需要……"],["林委員月琴：有沒有需要跨部會協調的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：有，因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談，創造一個新的機制，那這個……"],["林委員月琴：因為我也願意協助推動，所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強、怎麼和環評的制度協調，讓它真的能夠支撐綠能發展，而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝委員非常寶貴的意見。"],["林委員月琴：部長，請回。再麻煩經濟部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：次長，剛剛我問到回收基金的欠繳跟費率不足的問題，請次長說明一下經濟部的看法。"],["賴次長建信：基本上我們現在在做的，不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在申設的部分，我們要求廠商依照我們的規範來做，目前每千瓦必須要繳交一定數量的回收金額，但是它是在一定時間來分期攤提，以它的發電量來做攤提。"],["林委員月琴：接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡，我們設定2026年要達20GW，但業者說現在一個地面型的光電案場，從申請到併聯平均需要6到7年，進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型，國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準，而是讓程序更有效率、更合比例，像歐洲針對低風險案場的簡化環評、設定明確時限，甚至有逾期視為同意的機制所在，也會劃設加速區，讓成熟技術用更快速篩選取代冗長的流程，縮短時程又不影響到品質。","部長，我們的問題不只是慢，而且事實上是又慢又複雜，多頭審查、程序重疊，我們的案場事實上是面臨民眾抗議，投資風險升高，不只業者困擾，還可能讓2026、2030年的目標全面落空，產業競爭力也會被拖垮。審計部也特別提醒選址的相關議題，所以今天是不是可以請次長回答，第一，你有沒有盤點過現有的機制中，哪一段程序是最拖時間？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員給我時間說明。太陽能光電的發展，在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢，而縮短行政流程也是全世界各國所努力的方向。我們從去年年底開始就跟農業部還有其他部會，甚至包括法務部也進來，希望有一個齊一的審查標準，這是第一個；第二個，是公開、透明的機制，這個機制我們有設立一個官網，把每一個申設案場的審查時程臚列出來；第三個，我們現在在加速的是每兩個禮拜跟地方政府開會，針對於是不是有一個整體性的問題，或是有法規認定的問題，我們希望有齊一的標準來加速審議的過程。"],["林委員月琴：好。第二，能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區，針對低風險案場簡化流程？"],["賴次長建信：原則上，我們現在已經針對所有的光電發展，包括國土計畫、土地需求，來做為推動光電發展的重要進程，目前為止，屋頂型還有包括地面型，是占相當大的比例，今天很多委員關切的所謂水面型部分，相對於我們現在發展的太陽光電比例，還算是比較少的，大概只有6%。"],["林委員月琴：第三，怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質，因為時間關係，所以沒辦法讓你回答，不過還有一個根本的問題，就是發電需要土地，所以民間推估2050年的目標，至少要有5萬公頃的土地，而不同類型、不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制。歐盟也要求各國精準計算光電需求、盤點可用土地、明確區分優先使用區位，並與國土計畫連動，這部分我們有沒有做、有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標？要如何盤點流程、簡化流程，並做好土地運用的評估，確保臺灣能夠又好又快，請經濟部在一個月內把這些有關光電發展跟土地策略規劃資料給我們辦公室。"],["賴次長建信：沒有問題。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}}