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628.541, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 628.541, \"end\": 628.661, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 628.661, \"end\": 629.101, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 629.101, \"end\": 629.301, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 629.301, \"end\": 629.441, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 629.441, \"end\": 629.461, \"score\": 0.051}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 629.461, \"end\": 629.581, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 629.581, \"end\": 629.601, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 629.601, \"end\": 629.721, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 629.721, \"end\": 629.741, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,019 --> 00:00:14,403\n請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策謝謝好麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長黃懷次長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:31,392 --> 00:00:57,148\n主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務處長\n\n3\n00:01:00,887 --> 00:01:28,205\n依照98條規定有缺口政府來教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對按照精算報告那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目\n\n4\n00:01:29,775 --> 00:01:46,463\n我們依法來辦理你們依法來辦理好依法辦理所以依法好這邊我們看到希望這一邊會是非常重要的因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分這邊看到的態度好但是可以看到的是你可以看到人\n\n5\n00:01:47,830 --> 00:02:06,781\n主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那110\n\n6\n00:02:10,583 --> 00:02:23,509\n3年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到\n\n7\n00:02:29,511 --> 00:02:40,558\n因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分呢他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們這到113年的時候呢確實撥補了100億並沒有照精算報告啊那這邊\n\n8\n00:02:47,242 --> 00:02:59,250\n但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎\n\n9\n00:03:00,645 --> 00:03:27,671\n依照精算報告部裡面我們是以十年針對新制的缺口是以十年來撥補對那你十年的話可是看到真正一百三年的時候事實上是一百億來講差額這麼大這樣子的話並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看到當初說一百如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到一百三十五年那這一百三十五年因為當初\n\n10\n00:03:29,091 --> 00:03:40,825\n的這個這個報告當中呢精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你如果111年加50年就是說162年來講的話這邊就是他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成說\n\n11\n00:03:46,872 --> 00:03:52,055\n你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變零的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了\n\n12\n00:04:05,610 --> 00:04:25,000\n這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口有計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來齁但是這個地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情交易部跟\n\n13\n00:04:26,874 --> 00:04:47,561\n跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話會怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下\n\n14\n00:04:49,942 --> 00:05:14,263\n因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補這三年113114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為\n\n15\n00:05:16,745 --> 00:05:44,964\n110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總署這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施仁傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況\n\n16\n00:05:46,504 --> 00:06:06,049\n跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊\n\n17\n00:06:08,090 --> 00:06:27,966\n我們不會讓這種情形對所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是再更重要的是因為最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補啦包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革的說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎\n\n18\n00:06:38,705 --> 00:06:49,141\n在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配撥補我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力\n\n19\n00:06:50,185 --> 00:07:12,458\n好我們繼續再往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退輔給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退輔條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數增幅達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是\n\n20\n00:07:17,461 --> 00:07:44,427\n以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯齁但是我們看到的是今年在六月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅\n\n21\n00:07:44,867 --> 00:08:04,013\n基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算\n\n22\n00:08:05,648 --> 00:08:31,737\n報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上\n\n23\n00:08:34,898 --> 00:08:55,223\n好希望主計總署這邊特別要去針對到反映到人民的尤其是教師他在退輔之後他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢\n\n24\n00:08:57,384 --> 00:09:24,703\n是不是請朱市長那邊或是主技術那邊做一個回應呢應該尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在所謂教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話它可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考\n\n25\n00:09:25,143 --> 00:09:40,506\n好謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許他是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形啊因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟更大\n\n26\n00:09:52,509 --> 00:10:04,932\n跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部朱市長你這邊是不是也可以就是說把這個年紀實際上是算精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它這個效果\n\n27\n00:10:06,314 --> 00:10:29,741\n我們會後也針對第九次計算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好謝謝那這部分就想講說這部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝劉委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9019\t14403\t請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策 謝謝好 麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長 黃懷次長 謝謝\n31392\t57148\t主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務處長\n60887\t88205\t依照98條規定 有缺口政府來 教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好 那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對 按照精算報告那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目\n89775\t106463\t我們依法來辦理 你們依法來辦理好 依法辦理 所以 依法好 這邊我們看到 希望這一邊會是非常重要的 因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分 這邊看到的態度 好 但是可以看到的是 你可以看到人\n107830\t126781\t主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那110\n130583\t143509\t3年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到\n149511\t160558\t因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分呢他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們這到113年的時候呢確實撥補了100億並沒有照精算報告啊那這邊\n167242\t179250\t但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長 教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎\n180645\t207671\t依照精算報告 部裡面我們是以十年 針對新制的缺口是以十年來撥補對 那你十年的話 可是看到真正一百三年的時候事實上是一百億來講 差額這麼大這樣子的話 並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看到當初說一百 如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到一百三十五年那這一百三十五年 因為當初\n209091\t220825\t的 這個這個報告當中呢 精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你如果111年加50年就是說162年來講的話這邊就是 他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成說\n226872\t232055\t你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變零的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了\n245610\t265000\t這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口有計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來齁但是這個地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情交易部跟\n266874\t287561\t跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話會怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下\n289942\t314263\t因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補這三年113 114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為\n316745\t344964\t110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總署這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施仁傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況\n346504\t366049\t跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊\n368090\t387966\t我們不會讓這種情形對 所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是 再更重要的是因為 最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補啦 包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革的說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高 差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎\n398705\t409141\t在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配撥補我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力\n410185\t432458\t好 我們繼續再往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退輔給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退輔條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數增幅達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員 這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是\n437461\t464427\t以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯齁但是我們看到的是今年在六月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅\n464867\t484013\t基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算\n485648\t511737\t報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上\n514898\t535223\t好 希望主計總署這邊 特別要去針對到反映到人民的 尤其是教師他在退輔之後他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢\n537384\t564703\t是不是請朱市長那邊或是主技術那邊做一個回應呢應該 尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在所謂教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是 各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話它可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考\n565143\t580506\t好 謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許他是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形啊因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟更大\n592509\t604932\t跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部 朱市長你這邊是不是也可以就是說把這個年紀實際上是算 精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它這個效果\n606314\t629741\t我們會後也針對第九次計算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好 謝謝那這部分就想講說這部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝劉委員\n","txt":"請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策 謝謝好 麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長 黃懷次長 謝謝\n主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務處長\n依照98條規定 有缺口政府來 教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好 那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對 按照精算報告那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目\n我們依法來辦理 你們依法來辦理好 依法辦理 所以 依法好 這邊我們看到 希望這一邊會是非常重要的 因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分 這邊看到的態度 好 但是可以看到的是 你可以看到人\n主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那110\n3年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到\n因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分呢他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們這到113年的時候呢確實撥補了100億並沒有照精算報告啊那這邊\n但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長 教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎\n依照精算報告 部裡面我們是以十年 針對新制的缺口是以十年來撥補對 那你十年的話 可是看到真正一百三年的時候事實上是一百億來講 差額這麼大這樣子的話 並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看到當初說一百 如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到一百三十五年那這一百三十五年 因為當初\n的 這個這個報告當中呢 精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你如果111年加50年就是說162年來講的話這邊就是 他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成說\n你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變零的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了\n這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口有計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來齁但是這個地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情交易部跟\n跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話會怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下\n因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補這三年113 114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為\n110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總署這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施仁傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況\n跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊\n我們不會讓這種情形對 所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是 再更重要的是因為 最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補啦 包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革的說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高 差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎\n在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配撥補我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力\n好 我們繼續再往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退輔給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退輔條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數增幅達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員 這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是\n以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯齁但是我們看到的是今年在六月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅\n基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算\n報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上\n好 希望主計總署這邊 特別要去針對到反映到人民的 尤其是教師他在退輔之後他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢\n是不是請朱市長那邊或是主技術那邊做一個回應呢應該 尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在所謂教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是 各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話它可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考\n好 謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許他是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形啊因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟更大\n跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部 朱市長你這邊是不是也可以就是說把這個年紀實際上是算 精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它這個效果\n我們會後也針對第九次計算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好 謝謝那這部分就想講說這部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝劉委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.019 --> 00:14.403\n請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策謝謝好麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長黃懷次長謝謝\n\n00:31.392 --> 00:57.148\n主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務處長\n\n01:00.887 --> 01:28.205\n依照98條規定有缺口政府來教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對按照精算報告那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目\n\n01:29.775 --> 01:46.463\n我們依法來辦理你們依法來辦理好依法辦理所以依法好這邊我們看到希望這一邊會是非常重要的因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分這邊看到的態度好但是可以看到的是你可以看到人\n\n01:47.830 --> 02:06.781\n主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那110\n\n02:10.583 --> 02:23.509\n3年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到\n\n02:29.511 --> 02:40.558\n因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分呢他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們這到113年的時候呢確實撥補了100億並沒有照精算報告啊那這邊\n\n02:47.242 --> 02:59.250\n但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎\n\n03:00.645 --> 03:27.671\n依照精算報告部裡面我們是以十年針對新制的缺口是以十年來撥補對那你十年的話可是看到真正一百三年的時候事實上是一百億來講差額這麼大這樣子的話並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看到當初說一百如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到一百三十五年那這一百三十五年因為當初\n\n03:29.091 --> 03:40.825\n的這個這個報告當中呢精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你如果111年加50年就是說162年來講的話這邊就是他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成說\n\n03:46.872 --> 03:52.055\n你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變零的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了\n\n04:05.610 --> 04:25.000\n這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口有計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來齁但是這個地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情交易部跟\n\n04:26.874 --> 04:47.561\n跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話會怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下\n\n04:49.942 --> 05:14.263\n因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補這三年113114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為\n\n05:16.745 --> 05:44.964\n110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總署這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施仁傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況\n\n05:46.504 --> 06:06.049\n跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊\n\n06:08.090 --> 06:27.966\n我們不會讓這種情形對所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是再更重要的是因為最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補啦包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革的說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎\n\n06:38.705 --> 06:49.141\n在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配撥補我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力\n\n06:50.185 --> 07:12.458\n好我們繼續再往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退輔給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退輔條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數增幅達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是\n\n07:17.461 --> 07:44.427\n以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯齁但是我們看到的是今年在六月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅\n\n07:44.867 --> 08:04.013\n基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算\n\n08:05.648 --> 08:31.737\n報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上\n\n08:34.898 --> 08:55.223\n好希望主計總署這邊特別要去針對到反映到人民的尤其是教師他在退輔之後他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢\n\n08:57.384 --> 09:24.703\n是不是請朱市長那邊或是主技術那邊做一個回應呢應該尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在所謂教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話它可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考\n\n09:25.143 --> 09:40.506\n好謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許他是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形啊因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟更大\n\n09:52.509 --> 10:04.932\n跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部朱市長你這邊是不是也可以就是說把這個年紀實際上是算精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它這個效果\n\n10:06.314 --> 10:29.741\n我們會後也針對第九次計算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好謝謝那這部分就想講說這部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝劉委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.019,"end":14.403,"text":"請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策 謝謝好 麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長 黃懷次長 謝謝"},{"start":31.392,"end":57.148,"text":"主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務處長"},{"start":60.887,"end":88.205,"text":"依照98條規定 有缺口政府來 教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好 那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對 按照精算報告那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目"},{"start":89.775,"end":106.463,"text":"我們依法來辦理 你們依法來辦理好 依法辦理 所以 依法好 這邊我們看到 希望這一邊會是非常重要的 因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分 這邊看到的態度 好 但是可以看到的是 你可以看到人"},{"start":107.83,"end":126.781,"text":"主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那110"},{"start":130.583,"end":143.509,"text":"3年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到"},{"start":149.511,"end":160.558,"text":"因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分呢他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們這到113年的時候呢確實撥補了100億並沒有照精算報告啊那這邊"},{"start":167.242,"end":179.25,"text":"但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長 教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎"},{"start":180.645,"end":207.671,"text":"依照精算報告 部裡面我們是以十年 針對新制的缺口是以十年來撥補對 那你十年的話 可是看到真正一百三年的時候事實上是一百億來講 差額這麼大這樣子的話 並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看到當初說一百 如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到一百三十五年那這一百三十五年 因為當初"},{"start":209.091,"end":220.825,"text":"的 這個這個報告當中呢 精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你如果111年加50年就是說162年來講的話這邊就是 他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成說"},{"start":226.872,"end":232.055,"text":"你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變零的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了"},{"start":245.61,"end":265,"text":"這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口有計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來齁但是這個地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情交易部跟"},{"start":266.874,"end":287.561,"text":"跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話會怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下"},{"start":289.942,"end":314.263,"text":"因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補這三年113 114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為"},{"start":316.745,"end":344.964,"text":"110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總署這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施仁傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況"},{"start":346.504,"end":366.049,"text":"跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊"},{"start":368.09,"end":387.966,"text":"我們不會讓這種情形對 所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是 再更重要的是因為 最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補啦 包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革的說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高 差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎"},{"start":398.705,"end":409.141,"text":"在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配撥補我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力"},{"start":410.185,"end":432.458,"text":"好 我們繼續再往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退輔給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退輔條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數增幅達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員 這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是"},{"start":437.461,"end":464.427,"text":"以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯齁但是我們看到的是今年在六月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅"},{"start":464.867,"end":484.013,"text":"基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算"},{"start":485.648,"end":511.737,"text":"報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上"},{"start":514.898,"end":535.223,"text":"好 希望主計總署這邊 特別要去針對到反映到人民的 尤其是教師他在退輔之後他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢"},{"start":537.384,"end":564.703,"text":"是不是請朱市長那邊或是主技術那邊做一個回應呢應該 尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在所謂教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是 各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話它可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考"},{"start":565.143,"end":580.506,"text":"好 謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許他是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形啊因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟更大"},{"start":592.509,"end":604.932,"text":"跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部 朱市長你這邊是不是也可以就是說把這個年紀實際上是算 精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它這個效果"},{"start":606.314,"end":629.741,"text":"我們會後也針對第九次計算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好 謝謝那這部分就想講說這部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝劉委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（10時14分）請教育部朱次長，還有行政總處的……主計處的人員跟銓敘部的政次，謝謝。"],["主席：好，麻煩朱次長還有副人事長和懷次長，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：主席還有各位大家好，我們看到今天在討論的是公立學校教職人員的退休資遣撫卹條例，第九十八條已經說明了，政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口，請問一下銓敘部跟教育部，撥補公教退撫基金是否為義務？朱次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：依照第九十八條規定，有缺口由政府撥補，教育部是負責教育人員的部分。"],["劉委員書彬：好，請主計總處人員。這都是義務吧？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：依法規定是按精算報告。"],["劉委員書彬：對，是按照精算報告，剛剛同樣的問題再問主計總處，是否已經有將退撫基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：我們依法來辦理。"],["劉委員書彬：你們依法來辦理？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：對。"],["劉委員書彬：好，依法辦理，這部分是非常重要的，因為它影響到我們教職人員非常重要的部分，這邊看的到他們的態度。我們可以看到，也請主計總處的人員告訴我，勞保基金都可以長期的做撥補，但公教基金為什麼沒有被撥補、被拖延？是不是有雙重標準的存在？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：報告委員，我們是依照精算報告來撥補，113年到115年我們已經總共撥補了五百多億，所以並沒有拖延撥補。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有、沒有，我們繼續往下看，這部分也是根據精算報告所看出來的，既然是這樣，我們繼續往下看，在112年之後的撥補情形可以看到，你也說到精算報告，精算報告裡面特別講到新制的缺口，有提到應該分10年或20年，總值317億，可是到113年的時候卻只撥補了100億，並沒有照精算報告啊！更重要的是，你們到底是依照10年還是20年的？看起來應該是20年的，請問教育部朱次長，您這邊有跟行政院長報告你們到底是用10年還是20年的嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：依照精算報告，我們部裡面是以10年期程，針對薪資缺口是以10年來撥補……"],["劉委員書彬：對，以10年來撥補，可是以113年事實上是撥補100億來講，差額這麼大，這樣並沒有真正保障教師的權益。我們甚至看到，如果用新制來做撥補的話，破產年是135年，當初精算報告特別講到，用50年來計算是比較長期穩定的，111年再加50年就是162年，如果到時候在職的退休，變成162年不算了嗎？更重要的是，現在破產年是135年，135年變成零的情況之下，是不是會導致現在在職的老師們沒有辦法領到，到時候就沒有錢了？這個基金沒有錢了，怎麼辦呢？","在這個情況之下，我們可以特別看到的是，你們後來在114年也還有缺口，依照精算報告也缺了12億，目前看起來是有把它補起來，但這個地方我想看的是，足額撥補是一件很重要的事情，教育部跟跟主計總處、銓敘部這邊是不是能夠承諾？沒有撥補會是怎麼樣的情況？到時候135年甚至134年之後都沒有錢了，怎麼辦呢？這對老師是很大打擊。尤其朱次長應該很可以知道，我們連師培生也不願意加入了，對吧？這個地方有很嚴重的問題，朱次長你是不是要回應一下？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補，113年、114年跟115年這三年，其實我們預算是216億，之後就會跟上，如果分20年撥補的話，一年要83億，我們會補上這個缺口。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了？因為10年跟20年撥補下來的差異差不多是一千七百多億，這算盤怎麼會算得出來？尤其是主計總處去算的，這是非常奇怪的。這邊我們可以看到的是，剛剛講到足額撥補，也包括上個禮拜施能傑部長也提到這個內容，也提到教職人員的退撫基金時間會更早，再問教育部的是，如何因應138年之後的公教退撫基金破產的情況？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，如果政府沒有持續撥補的話，以目前來講，在教育人員的部分，131年確實有歸零，但這是在政府沒有撥補的情況，根據退撫條例，政府要負最後的支付保證責任，所以這一塊我們不會讓這種情形……"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以你們要足額，對不對？是不是可以承諾要做足額？而且最重要的是，這不只是撥補，包括每個人支付的金額要提高，那你們有再次年金改革的時程嗎？因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題，你看到公務人員提撥的差距這麼高，差距到百分之十幾，之後有想要再繼續做改革嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：在107年年改推動之後，如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走，搭配政府的撥補，我想退撫基金是可以永續的，我們會努力。"],["劉委員書彬：抱歉，主席，再給大概1分鐘。","我們繼續再往下看，我們看到教育人員跟退撫給與的調整，因為在退撫條例當中規定「消費者物價指數累計成長率達正、負百分之五時，應予調整……或至少每四年應予檢討」，可是我們看到的以主計總處的部分來說，主計總處的兩位專員，過去因為CPI的因素有調整過兩次沒有錯，但是以今年來講的話，5月CPI上漲了1.5%，我們看到今年6月份的新聞所呈現的是說，總共368項物價查價項目中有240項價格上漲，尤其是外食費年漲幅達3.5%、肉類上漲4.8%，水果更暴漲18.56%，甚至還包括房租等其他部分。如果以目前退撫基金條例中所呈現出來的內容來講，並沒有實質反映到人民，尤其是教職人員年金所需要的部分，這部分是不是應該考慮以實質購買力去做一個調整？有沒有這樣的打算？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：報告委員，主計總處對CPI的調查是根據所有物價的上漲狀況，並不會針對某特定年金調整等等去做計算，我們是根據所有的物價調漲項目來做調查的。"],["劉委員書彬：所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已，是不是？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：不是，我們是針對所有物價去調查，但是不是反映了年金的這個部分，我們沒有做單項調整的調查，以上。"],["劉委員書彬：好，希望主計總處這邊特別要針對並反映到人民，尤其是教師在退休之後的實質購買力，以此去做調整，你們是不是應該要做一個整體報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢？是不是請朱次長或是主計處這邊做一個回應？尤其是朱次長，您是教育部的代表，代表了教育界的聲音，是不是可以反映，這部分應該要反映到實質情況？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，如果是用實質購買力的話，可能會受到一些短期供需變動幅度比較大的影響，但是我們會後可以提供一個分析及說明給委員做參考。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["劉委員書彬：這部分包括年金合理的退休情形，當然教育部或者是銓敘部等等都提出因為沒有這樣的錢，或是實際上的條件不允許，是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形？因為更具體的效果要呈現出來，而且可能要做一下溝通，具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟我們所有全體國人，特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通及說明的。教育部朱次長這邊是不是也可以呈現出來，因為這個年金的精算報告大概50年嘛，是不是能夠呈現出那個效果？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，我們會後也針對第9次精算報告中有關於教職人員的部分提供一份說明給委員做參考。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。簡單來說，這部分應該要確實的做全部的撥補，相關的追蹤報告也要做，而且應該建立反映民生物價的年金調整機制，要做停砍的方案，我覺得也要跟民眾說清楚。謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員。","接下來請葛如鈞委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}