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\"start\": 497.389, \"end\": 497.409, \"score\": 0.156}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:00,049\n請官員備質詢謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:12,262 --> 00:00:34,528\n市長兩位市長好這個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年紀改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏\n\n3\n00:00:35,968 --> 00:00:51,488\n退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎\n\n4\n00:00:56,569 --> 00:01:12,735\n對我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在\n\n5\n00:01:13,655 --> 00:01:40,304\n你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產\n\n6\n00:01:41,826 --> 00:01:48,267\n那麼但是呢這個破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔這個最後支付的義務\n\n7\n00:01:50,218 --> 00:02:11,786\n請問次長兩位次長是吧是的是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個\n\n8\n00:02:13,447 --> 00:02:34,623\n跟這個所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的這個利益\n\n9\n00:02:35,990 --> 00:02:55,328\n那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落\n\n10\n00:02:56,149 --> 00:03:18,177\n那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革那我認為這個是一個終止\n\n11\n00:03:21,538 --> 00:03:34,688\n政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再恢復權力得到相當的正義所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是\n\n12\n00:03:38,863 --> 00:03:54,329\n我這邊的話我要請教的就是這個懷次長你們在這裡左計算右計算你們從一開始當時在推動退府基金的建制之初你們就說是採取不足額提撥\n\n13\n00:03:56,291 --> 00:04:18,600\n一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說這個我們政府會不足而提撥所以呢遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是啦這個跟委員報告一下那個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果\n\n14\n00:04:23,422 --> 00:04:30,471\n充分的在補足這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應\n\n15\n00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:56,362\n我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯\n\n16\n00:04:58,799 --> 00:05:23,529\n因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中\n\n17\n00:05:23,829 --> 00:05:50,871\n是謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是呢政府完全不體諒他們然後呢打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面\n\n18\n00:05:53,013 --> 00:06:08,789\n其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整\n\n19\n00:06:09,289 --> 00:06:28,586\n那我根據這次衛福部的報告說近年來衛福部針對他主管的六項居今天性質的年金給付包含老年年金給付什麼老年基本保險金移屬年金生計障礙年金等等原住民等等這些給付他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業105年的時候調整3.65%109年調整了3.97%\n\n20\n00:06:35,332 --> 00:06:50,908\n113年則是調整了7.34%可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來\n\n21\n00:06:53,388 --> 00:07:10,568\n6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎\n\n22\n00:07:12,503 --> 00:07:39,403\n我跟委員報告喔因為他的那個基數時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的跟您報告我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比\n\n23\n00:07:40,595 --> 00:08:08,100\n退休公教人員退休金他越退休他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情\n\n24\n00:08:09,178 --> 00:08:17,409\n好那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t49\t請官員備質詢 謝謝\n12262\t34528\t市長兩位市長好這個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年紀改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏\n35968\t51488\t退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工 您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎\n56569\t72735\t對 我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在\n73655\t100304\t你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產\n101826\t108267\t那麼但是呢這個破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔這個最後支付的義務\n110218\t131786\t請問次長兩位次長是吧是的是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個\n133447\t154623\t跟這個所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的這個利益\n155990\t175328\t那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落\n176149\t198177\t那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革那我認為這個是一個終止\n201538\t214688\t政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再恢復權力得到相當的正義所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是\n218863\t234329\t我這邊的話我要請教的就是這個懷次長你們在這裡左計算右計算你們從一開始當時在推動退府基金的建制之初你們就說是採取不足額提撥\n236291\t258600\t一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說這個我們政府會不足而提撥所以呢 遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是啦 這個跟委員報告一下那個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果\n263422\t270471\t充分的在補足 這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應\n271360\t296362\t我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯\n298799\t323529\t因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中\n323829\t350871\t是 謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是呢政府完全不體諒他們然後呢打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面\n353013\t368789\t其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整\n369289\t388586\t那我根據這次衛福部的報告說近年來衛福部針對他主管的六項居今天性質的年金給付包含老年年金給付什麼老年基本保險金移屬年金生計障礙年金等等原住民等等這些給付他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業105年的時候調整3.65%109年調整了3.97%\n395332\t410908\t113年則是調整了7.34%可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來\n413388\t430568\t6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎\n432503\t459403\t我跟委員報告喔 因為他的那個基數 時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的 跟您報告我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比\n460595\t488100\t退休公教人員退休金他越退休他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情\n489178\t497409\t好 那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝\n","txt":"請官員備質詢 謝謝\n市長兩位市長好這個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年紀改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏\n退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工 您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎\n對 我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在\n你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產\n那麼但是呢這個破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔這個最後支付的義務\n請問次長兩位次長是吧是的是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個\n跟這個所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的這個利益\n那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落\n那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革那我認為這個是一個終止\n政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再恢復權力得到相當的正義所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是\n我這邊的話我要請教的就是這個懷次長你們在這裡左計算右計算你們從一開始當時在推動退府基金的建制之初你們就說是採取不足額提撥\n一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說這個我們政府會不足而提撥所以呢 遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是啦 這個跟委員報告一下那個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果\n充分的在補足 這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應\n我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯\n因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中\n是 謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是呢政府完全不體諒他們然後呢打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面\n其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整\n那我根據這次衛福部的報告說近年來衛福部針對他主管的六項居今天性質的年金給付包含老年年金給付什麼老年基本保險金移屬年金生計障礙年金等等原住民等等這些給付他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業105年的時候調整3.65%109年調整了3.97%\n113年則是調整了7.34%可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來\n6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎\n我跟委員報告喔 因為他的那個基數 時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的 跟您報告我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比\n退休公教人員退休金他越退休他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情\n好 那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:00.049\n請官員備質詢謝謝\n\n00:12.262 --> 00:34.528\n市長兩位市長好這個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年紀改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏\n\n00:35.968 --> 00:51.488\n退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎\n\n00:56.569 --> 01:12.735\n對我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在\n\n01:13.655 --> 01:40.304\n你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產\n\n01:41.826 --> 01:48.267\n那麼但是呢這個破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔這個最後支付的義務\n\n01:50.218 --> 02:11.786\n請問次長兩位次長是吧是的是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個\n\n02:13.447 --> 02:34.623\n跟這個所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的這個利益\n\n02:35.990 --> 02:55.328\n那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落\n\n02:56.149 --> 03:18.177\n那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革那我認為這個是一個終止\n\n03:21.538 --> 03:34.688\n政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再恢復權力得到相當的正義所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是\n\n03:38.863 --> 03:54.329\n我這邊的話我要請教的就是這個懷次長你們在這裡左計算右計算你們從一開始當時在推動退府基金的建制之初你們就說是採取不足額提撥\n\n03:56.291 --> 04:18.600\n一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說這個我們政府會不足而提撥所以呢遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是啦這個跟委員報告一下那個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果\n\n04:23.422 --> 04:30.471\n充分的在補足這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應\n\n04:31.360 --> 04:56.362\n我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯\n\n04:58.799 --> 05:23.529\n因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中\n\n05:23.829 --> 05:50.871\n是謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是呢政府完全不體諒他們然後呢打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面\n\n05:53.013 --> 06:08.789\n其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整\n\n06:09.289 --> 06:28.586\n那我根據這次衛福部的報告說近年來衛福部針對他主管的六項居今天性質的年金給付包含老年年金給付什麼老年基本保險金移屬年金生計障礙年金等等原住民等等這些給付他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業105年的時候調整3.65%109年調整了3.97%\n\n06:35.332 --> 06:50.908\n113年則是調整了7.34%可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來\n\n06:53.388 --> 07:10.568\n6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎\n\n07:12.503 --> 07:39.403\n我跟委員報告喔因為他的那個基數時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的跟您報告我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比\n\n07:40.595 --> 08:08.100\n退休公教人員退休金他越退休他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情\n\n08:09.178 --> 08:17.409\n好那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.049,"text":"請官員備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12.262,"end":34.528,"text":"市長兩位市長好這個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年紀改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏"},{"start":35.968,"end":51.488,"text":"退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工 您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎"},{"start":56.569,"end":72.735,"text":"對 我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在"},{"start":73.655,"end":100.304,"text":"你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產"},{"start":101.826,"end":108.267,"text":"那麼但是呢這個破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔這個最後支付的義務"},{"start":110.218,"end":131.786,"text":"請問次長兩位次長是吧是的是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個"},{"start":133.447,"end":154.623,"text":"跟這個所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的這個利益"},{"start":155.99,"end":175.328,"text":"那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落"},{"start":176.149,"end":198.177,"text":"那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革那我認為這個是一個終止"},{"start":201.538,"end":214.688,"text":"政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再恢復權力得到相當的正義所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是"},{"start":218.863,"end":234.329,"text":"我這邊的話我要請教的就是這個懷次長你們在這裡左計算右計算你們從一開始當時在推動退府基金的建制之初你們就說是採取不足額提撥"},{"start":236.291,"end":258.6,"text":"一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說這個我們政府會不足而提撥所以呢 遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是啦 這個跟委員報告一下那個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果"},{"start":263.422,"end":270.471,"text":"充分的在補足 這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應"},{"start":271.36,"end":296.362,"text":"我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯"},{"start":298.799,"end":323.529,"text":"因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中"},{"start":323.829,"end":350.871,"text":"是 謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是呢政府完全不體諒他們然後呢打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面"},{"start":353.013,"end":368.789,"text":"其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整"},{"start":369.289,"end":388.586,"text":"那我根據這次衛福部的報告說近年來衛福部針對他主管的六項居今天性質的年金給付包含老年年金給付什麼老年基本保險金移屬年金生計障礙年金等等原住民等等這些給付他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業105年的時候調整3.65%109年調整了3.97%"},{"start":395.332,"end":410.908,"text":"113年則是調整了7.34%可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來"},{"start":413.388,"end":430.568,"text":"6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎"},{"start":432.503,"end":459.403,"text":"我跟委員報告喔 因為他的那個基數 時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的 跟您報告我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比"},{"start":460.595,"end":488.1,"text":"退休公教人員退休金他越退休他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情"},{"start":489.178,"end":497.409,"text":"好 那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時36分）有請次長還有銓敘部次長。"],["主席：請官員備質詢，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：兩位次長好。是這樣的，因為今天一直聽到所謂的年金改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助，我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的，如果今天把世代互助這個名詞套到勞保基金，或是去針對勞工的退撫機制去做調整，然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們，跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧，然後把這些錢多去補貼給現在在職的勞工，您認為勞工朋友們會答應嗎？會答應嗎？我認為這個問題基本上是很嚴重的，今天對於勞工的整個退撫機制來說，當然，他們的雇主是一般的企業，跟軍公教不一樣，軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府。在你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調，政府本來對於公教人員的退休金就應該要負擔最後支付責任，對不對？這句話我想兩位都同意的。更何況，依照你們的報告，其實退撫基金的破產或是我們講退撫基金的用罄是遲早的問題，現在的改革不代表退撫基金不會破產，但是破產之後，是不是政府仍然必須要負擔最後支付的義務？請問兩位次長，是吧？"],["朱次長俊彰：是的。"],["懷次長敍：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以，我們現在看到，在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革法案已經帶來很多後遺症，不僅僅是對於已經退休的，或者是說以現在來講比較資深的老師們，因為他們涵蓋了舊制跟所謂新制儲金制的這一批老師們，應該是涵蓋舊制，從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員，對他們來講，他們的退休金就直接打了很多折扣，直接減損了他們退休金的利益。更何況，這樣一個退休金改革方案還影響到現在的公教人員，基本上我們知道要擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑，而且是懸崖式的滑落，我們已經看到這一個惡法的確產生了很多的影響。所以今天國民黨很負責任的，而且也考量到整個退休教師們，尤其是基層的退休教師們，目前他們生活的困境、基層公教人員生活的困境，所以提出了相關法案的再改革。我認為這是一個終止政府繼續霸凌軍公教的法案，讓軍公教的退休金能夠再回復，得到相當的正義。所以在今天我的質詢裡面，其實我只是很……這邊我要請教的是懷次長，你們在這裡左計算右計算，你們從一開始，當時在推動退撫基金的建制支出，你們就說是採取不足額提撥，一開始的理念是這樣嗎？從一開始去建構退撫基金，所謂新制的退撫基金的時候，當時就已經知道我們政府會不足額提撥，所以遲早都會破產，是這樣的態度嗎？"],["懷次長敍：不是，跟委員報告一下，那個指的是說，在當時在建置這個制度的時候，就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費，以當時精算的結果充分地來補足，這個描述是這個意思，不好意思，造成委員的誤解。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以如果從當時精算的結果你們就知道，然後有跟當時的政府反映？"],["懷次長敍：事實上在撥補的這件事情，我看過去的歷史資料，歷來都有在爭取。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情？"],["懷次長敍：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是可能政府會不足額的提撥，不足額提撥的這件事情，為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上？這是政府失職，並不是軍公教人員的過錯。"],["懷次長敍：因為我們原來的退休制度是確定給付制，也就是說你要百分之百得到……就是我很清楚說你要支付，當時在年改之前，如果以106年來講，當時一年才收200億，不到300億，但是我們一年支出就要四百二十幾億，所以才會需要進行長期性的年改，那麼在整個過程中……"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝次長，因為我想這個部分，您之前已經講過很多次了，但是我要講的就是今天會發生這樣子的狀況，不可歸責於軍公教人員，更不可歸責於這些早期適用舊制已經退休的軍公教人員，但是政府完全不體諒他們，打著世代互助的名義，然後拿人家的退休金來去貼補下一代退休金，你套到任何一個職業裡面，其他職業的員工、勞工可以接受嗎？我想不會有人會願意接受的。","那麼接下來，談到我們這一次所提出來的未來月退休金要隨著物價指數做調整，根據這次衛福部的報告，近年來衛福部針對它主管的六項具津貼性質的年金給付，包含老年年金給付、老年基本保證年金、遺屬年金、身心障礙年金、原住民給付等等這些給付，他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業，105年的時候調增3.65%，109年調增了3.97%，113年則是調增了7.34%。可是剛剛兩位次長你們說，還有主計處的報告說，這次的年改之後，你們調整幅度是多少？"],["懷次長敍：6%。"],["翁委員曉玲：兩次加起來？"],["懷次長敍：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：6%？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那我剛剛講的衛福部，他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了，將近可能到14%了，所以我們退休的軍公教人員這樣的月退休金調幅是合理的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，因為他實際的基數是很低的，我們公教人員的base是很大，所以每一趴實質上來講是不一樣的，跟您報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的說法，一直在講退休人員的月退休金所得是比一般勞工平均薪資要高，他比較的基礎標準就不一樣，你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比？公教人員退休金，他月退休，他當時每個月在薪水提撥的時候比例就高，這跟勞工也是不一樣的，所以我希望你們不要混淆視聽，兩個明明就是不同基礎的，勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度，不要拿來混為一談，這樣會讓人家看笑話的，而且對於很多的退休軍公教人員，他們沒有辦法接受這個事情。那麼因為這個問題其實很大，我想我今天就先談到這邊，也希望你們可以好好地捍衛軍公教人員的權益，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲）：好，有請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}