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0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,266 --> 00:00:16,157\n謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們的教育部我們副次長還有我們全區部懷次長退伍師師長還有懷次長兩位次長談這個退伍尤其是公教這樣的一個制度\n\n2\n00:00:26,212 --> 00:00:37,071\n站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較\n\n3\n00:00:39,355 --> 00:00:56,800\n講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋基金它本來就是一個水庫它本來就是一個水庫你退休的人多領的話你在職的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛\n\n4\n00:00:58,661 --> 00:01:16,119\n那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後啊你提前到2040年一路沒幾天可以唸嘛沒幾天可以唸那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面\n\n5\n00:01:17,182 --> 00:01:35,655\n那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看\n\n6\n00:01:36,876 --> 00:02:05,296\n這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不正義的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不正義啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產\n\n7\n00:02:06,551 --> 00:02:12,716\n會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障\n\n8\n00:02:33,351 --> 00:02:58,605\n那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討\n\n9\n00:03:00,467 --> 00:03:10,781\n在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法\n\n10\n00:03:12,545 --> 00:03:38,498\n這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看啦可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嘛那任何人發動這一場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問啦你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題啦你四字七八一七八二七八三\n\n11\n00:03:39,298 --> 00:03:59,756\n把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數\n\n12\n00:04:01,017 --> 00:04:16,492\n第一就是大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦\n\n13\n00:04:17,012 --> 00:04:42,626\n大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是一樣貼紙啊所以啊\n\n14\n00:04:46,107 --> 00:05:09,661\n我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去\n\n15\n00:05:12,575 --> 00:05:22,842\n你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一支改革下去本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊延緩而已啊延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你監護財政你捐給他嘛你監護他要貼錢嘛大家要去加稅嘛\n\n16\n00:05:34,184 --> 00:05:50,390\n水龍頭水不能鑽出來嘛不是這樣說那個次長法院次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的一個機制讓學校的調查程序更完備\n\n17\n00:05:51,850 --> 00:06:05,430\n也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌批罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強\n\n18\n00:06:07,072 --> 00:06:25,788\n但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣\n\n19\n00:06:26,848 --> 00:06:47,535\n這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件那我要請教教育部就是說那關於這兩種說法\n\n20\n00:06:49,096 --> 00:07:14,791\n看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的\n\n21\n00:07:15,211 --> 00:07:34,301\n第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎\n\n22\n00:07:34,921 --> 00:07:45,892\n其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任那我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行\n\n23\n00:07:46,744 --> 00:08:04,240\n今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校師會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮\n\n24\n00:08:07,463 --> 00:08:27,102\n那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較負責任的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好謝謝謝謝委員長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5266\t16157\t謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們的教育部我們副次長還有我們全區部懷次長退伍師師長還有懷次長兩位次長談這個退伍尤其是公教這樣的一個制度\n26212\t37071\t站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較\n39355\t56800\t講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋基金它本來就是一個水庫它本來就是一個水庫你退休的人多領的話你在職的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛\n58661\t76119\t那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後啊你提前到2040年一路沒幾天可以唸嘛沒幾天可以唸那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面\n77182\t95655\t那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看\n96876\t125296\t這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不正義的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不正義啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產\n126551\t132716\t會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是 跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障\n153351\t178605\t那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討\n180467\t190781\t在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法\n192545\t218498\t這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看啦可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嘛那任何人發動這一場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問啦你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題啦你四字七八一 七八二 七八三\n219298\t239756\t把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數\n241017\t256492\t第一就是大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦\n257012\t282626\t大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是一樣貼紙啊所以啊\n286107\t309661\t我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去\n312575\t322842\t你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一支改革下去本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊延緩而已啊 延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你監護財政你捐給他嘛你監護他要貼錢嘛 大家要去加稅嘛\n334184\t350390\t水龍頭水不能鑽出來嘛不是這樣說那個次長 法院次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的一個機制讓學校的調查程序更完備\n351850\t365430\t也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌 批罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強\n367072\t385788\t但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣\n386848\t407535\t這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件那我要請教教育部就是說那關於這兩種說法\n409096\t434791\t看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是 謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的 就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的\n435211\t454301\t第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎\n454921\t465892\t其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任那我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行\n466744\t484240\t今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校師會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮\n487463\t507102\t那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較負責任的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員長\n","txt":"謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們的教育部我們副次長還有我們全區部懷次長退伍師師長還有懷次長兩位次長談這個退伍尤其是公教這樣的一個制度\n站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較\n講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋基金它本來就是一個水庫它本來就是一個水庫你退休的人多領的話你在職的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛\n那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後啊你提前到2040年一路沒幾天可以唸嘛沒幾天可以唸那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面\n那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看\n這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不正義的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不正義啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產\n會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是 跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障\n那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討\n在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法\n這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看啦可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嘛那任何人發動這一場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問啦你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題啦你四字七八一 七八二 七八三\n把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數\n第一就是大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦\n大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是一樣貼紙啊所以啊\n我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去\n你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一支改革下去本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊延緩而已啊 延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你監護財政你捐給他嘛你監護他要貼錢嘛 大家要去加稅嘛\n水龍頭水不能鑽出來嘛不是這樣說那個次長 法院次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的一個機制讓學校的調查程序更完備\n也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌 批罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強\n但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣\n這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件那我要請教教育部就是說那關於這兩種說法\n看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是 謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的 就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的\n第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎\n其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任那我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行\n今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校師會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮\n那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較負責任的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.266 --> 00:16.157\n謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們的教育部我們副次長還有我們全區部懷次長退伍師師長還有懷次長兩位次長談這個退伍尤其是公教這樣的一個制度\n\n00:26.212 --> 00:37.071\n站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較\n\n00:39.355 --> 00:56.800\n講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋基金它本來就是一個水庫它本來就是一個水庫你退休的人多領的話你在職的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛\n\n00:58.661 --> 01:16.119\n那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後啊你提前到2040年一路沒幾天可以唸嘛沒幾天可以唸那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面\n\n01:17.182 --> 01:35.655\n那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看\n\n01:36.876 --> 02:05.296\n這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不正義的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不正義啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產\n\n02:06.551 --> 02:12.716\n會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障\n\n02:33.351 --> 02:58.605\n那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討\n\n03:00.467 --> 03:10.781\n在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法\n\n03:12.545 --> 03:38.498\n這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看啦可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嘛那任何人發動這一場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問啦你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題啦你四字七八一七八二七八三\n\n03:39.298 --> 03:59.756\n把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數\n\n04:01.017 --> 04:16.492\n第一就是大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦\n\n04:17.012 --> 04:42.626\n大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是一樣貼紙啊所以啊\n\n04:46.107 --> 05:09.661\n我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去\n\n05:12.575 --> 05:22.842\n你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一支改革下去本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊延緩而已啊延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你監護財政你捐給他嘛你監護他要貼錢嘛大家要去加稅嘛\n\n05:34.184 --> 05:50.390\n水龍頭水不能鑽出來嘛不是這樣說那個次長法院次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的一個機制讓學校的調查程序更完備\n\n05:51.850 --> 06:05.430\n也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌批罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強\n\n06:07.072 --> 06:25.788\n但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣\n\n06:26.848 --> 06:47.535\n這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件那我要請教教育部就是說那關於這兩種說法\n\n06:49.096 --> 07:14.791\n看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的\n\n07:15.211 --> 07:34.301\n第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎\n\n07:34.921 --> 07:45.892\n其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任那我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行\n\n07:46.744 --> 08:04.240\n今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校師會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮\n\n08:07.463 --> 08:27.102\n那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較負責任的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好謝謝謝謝委員長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.266,"end":16.157,"text":"謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們的教育部我們副次長還有我們全區部懷次長退伍師師長還有懷次長兩位次長談這個退伍尤其是公教這樣的一個制度"},{"start":26.212,"end":37.071,"text":"站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較"},{"start":39.355,"end":56.8,"text":"講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋基金它本來就是一個水庫它本來就是一個水庫你退休的人多領的話你在職的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛"},{"start":58.661,"end":76.119,"text":"那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後啊你提前到2040年一路沒幾天可以唸嘛沒幾天可以唸那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面"},{"start":77.182,"end":95.655,"text":"那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看"},{"start":96.876,"end":125.296,"text":"這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不正義的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不正義啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產"},{"start":126.551,"end":132.716,"text":"會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是 跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障"},{"start":153.351,"end":178.605,"text":"那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討"},{"start":180.467,"end":190.781,"text":"在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法"},{"start":192.545,"end":218.498,"text":"這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看啦可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嘛那任何人發動這一場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問啦你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題啦你四字七八一 七八二 七八三"},{"start":219.298,"end":239.756,"text":"把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數"},{"start":241.017,"end":256.492,"text":"第一就是大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦"},{"start":257.012,"end":282.626,"text":"大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是一樣貼紙啊所以啊"},{"start":286.107,"end":309.661,"text":"我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去"},{"start":312.575,"end":322.842,"text":"你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一支改革下去本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊延緩而已啊 延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你監護財政你捐給他嘛你監護他要貼錢嘛 大家要去加稅嘛"},{"start":334.184,"end":350.39,"text":"水龍頭水不能鑽出來嘛不是這樣說那個次長 法院次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的一個機制讓學校的調查程序更完備"},{"start":351.85,"end":365.43,"text":"也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌 批罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強"},{"start":367.072,"end":385.788,"text":"但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣"},{"start":386.848,"end":407.535,"text":"這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件那我要請教教育部就是說那關於這兩種說法"},{"start":409.096,"end":434.791,"text":"看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是 謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的 就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的"},{"start":435.211,"end":454.301,"text":"第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎"},{"start":454.921,"end":465.892,"text":"其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任那我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行"},{"start":466.744,"end":484.24,"text":"今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校師會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮"},{"start":487.463,"end":507.102,"text":"那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較負責任的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時45分）謝謝專業、美麗的召委。有請教育部次長，還有銓敘部懷次長。"],["主席：有請次長，還有懷次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩位次長。談這個退撫，尤其是公教這樣的一個制度，站在每一個人的立場，講法都會有所不同，可是你用更宏觀的角度去看的話，你會得出一個大家都比較講不出來的一個答案，到現在來看也是大家一直在傷破腦筋。基金，它本來就是一個水庫，退休的人多領的話，在職的人就必須要來補這個水庫，兩位次長，我想這樣講應該是對嘛。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面，你可以去維持到2045年，結果因為今天提這樣的修法以後，提前到2040年就沒錢領了，關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的版本裡面，包括幾個在野黨的方案裡面，就兩個手段、一個目的，第一個是停止逐年調整所得替代率，第二個是退休金減緩因消費者物價指數影響而縮水，那將指數正負百分之五變成正負百分之三，在我來看，這其實會把我們前面所推動的年金改革，過去不管誰執政，大家認為年金再不去改革的話，一定會破產，那你就摧毀以前過去年改的基礎。","到底會不會有世代不正義的問題？這其實很簡單，你如果以現在退休的人來看的話，會覺得他變成少領，對他來講是不正義；可是你如果站在大水庫立場來看的話，變成說現在在職的人一直貼錢，到最後一起破產，會有這樣的一個問題。所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下，你們的立場到底是怎麼樣？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，我想教育部對於年金改革的立場，是希望第一個，我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員，他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障，在這一塊，以目前我們的數據來看，因為平均來講，教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬元，有85%以上的月退金額是在5萬塊以上，對於如果因為物價的波動，在第六十七條也有一些相關正負百分之五，或是每4年的檢討，在這樣子的一個情況底下，我想對於為維持跟現職人員的衡平、基金的穩定、跟國家財政，應該是一個比較好的永續方法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個講法當然是站在政府的立場來看，可是被改革衝擊到的人，他就有不滿嘛，任何發動這場改革的人就一定是被獵巫或者被抨擊的對象。可是問題是，站在全民的立場來看的話，確實是一個大哉問，如果從法律的角度，連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的解釋，法律上當然沒有問題，釋字第781號、第782號、第783號，這些過去在野黨的批評，其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了。但是重點是，其實政府部門必須要很嚴肅地去做一個回應，就是如果要維持所得替代率，那你要調整物價指數，第一個，大家就想錢要從哪裡來？你錢要從哪裡來？就只剩一項，加稅，不然就從年輕的未來退休金裡面去扣，這樣的一個政策，你說真的是負責任嗎？今天其實版本裡面就值得我們去省思，大家去談到世代的平衡跟公平這個部分，好像大家會覺得被改革到的人，他聽都聽不下去，但問題就是，如果以現在修法通過，我相信這個衝擊到最後，大家很清楚，基金用完就是破產，政府貼錢嘛，你剩這條路而已，不然你就加稅收完之後，你們收完稅之後，也是一樣貼錢，所以我倒認為這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的謹慎，這個最後就是全民一起買單。","這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼？公投，因為衝擊到是全民，衝擊到的其實也不是只有年輕的、還沒有退休的在投錢進去，這個改革方案也不代表永遠一直改革下去，這個案在野黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來，你2045年當然會破產，是延緩而已，所以最終解決的方法是什麼？政府財政再增加嘛，政府到最後要再貼錢嘛，大家要被加稅，水龍頭打開也才有水。難道不是這樣講嗎？","懷次長，請回。","我最後要請教朱次長。我跟教育部在2020年為了完善不適任教師的處理機制，讓學校的調查程序更完備，也保障學生的學習跟教師的工作權，我們增設了校事會議。去年也為因應不同的態樣，包括校園的霸凌、體罰跟不當管教的調查事項，我想也做了一些補強。但是現在校事會議爭議這麼大，社會上有兩種完全不同的看法，一種看法是校事會議頻繁召開，八成的學校召開過校事會議，甚至有的學校一年量超過20件，讓學校辦學變成好像在辦案一樣，全教總就是這樣的講法。人本的講法是，校事會議具有篩選的功能，沒有濫訴的問題啊，舉了臺北市政府向媒體所講的，一年接獲8,000件相關的投訴，但在臺北市最終轉入校事會議程序的只有58件，受理才51件。","我要請教教育部，關於這兩種說法，看起來都有憑有據，針對校事會議不同的想像裡，教育部對於校事會議的立場到底是什麼？"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員的指導。我們目前大概有三個原則，第一個部分，我們看到成案的，就是解聘的案子，基本上都是具名檢舉的，所以未來校事會議就是以具名檢舉為主，不會再受理匿名檢舉。第二個部分，未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘、停聘、不續聘等重大事件，至於一般校內老師的考核、懲處就回到學校直接派員處理，不會進到校事會議。最後還是希望親師間的關係不是動輒得咎啦，其實親師之間應該有一些對話的空間、諒解和信任。我們也會鼓勵學校，遇到這樣的問題，盡量先以溝通、對話方式進行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：今天人因為很多啦，我要來做一個結束。但是我有一個建議，就是現在校事會議也真的有它的問題，遴選學者專家的過程裡，要更公開、透明；現在承辦行政人員的訓練，其實也要再加強；整個學校經費排擠效應的問題，你也必須要去考慮啦。如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的師生理念，這個天平的兩端，教育部如果提出更明確的制度方向，兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權，提出一套負責任的政策，是你們應該要做的事情。好不好？"],["朱次長俊彰：是、會，沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","我們先作會議程序的宣告：待會在林宜瑾委員發言完畢之後，因為還不到11點，我們先休息5分鐘，之後再請委員們繼續來質詢。","首先請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}