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\"end\": 402.953, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 402.953, \"end\": 403.073, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 403.073, \"end\": 403.093, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 403.093, \"end\": 403.194, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 403.194, \"end\": 403.214, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 403.214, \"end\": 403.234, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 403.234, \"end\": 403.254, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,519 --> 00:00:10,391\n謝謝主席我們麻煩請國安局還有警政署國安局警政署委員好\n\n2\n00:00:11,564 --> 00:00:38,181\n好梁院長那我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告我主要是針對一個資料庫的部分想要進行了解就是國家安全國安的部分其實我們絕對是贊成而且非常的支持一定要維護我們國家安全以及我國元首的安全這我絕對支持但是執行要符合比例原則要符合法律的規定不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱上方保健愛砍誰就砍誰\n\n3\n00:00:39,690 --> 00:01:05,967\n那我想請問一下那這次國安局的報告裡面有提到說對於政治極端主義有暴露傾向的行為要建置資料庫那我想請問一下這個資料庫這個法律的授權是哪裡來可不可以請你說明一下報告委員我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口不是不是不要跟我講這個我國做什麼事情要法律授權請問一下法律授權哪裡哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫\n\n4\n00:01:08,410 --> 00:01:25,493\n好那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至\n\n5\n00:01:26,454 --> 00:01:41,051\n收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到\n\n6\n00:01:41,772 --> 00:02:09,745\n他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來\n\n7\n00:02:11,743 --> 00:02:41,032\n他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚\n\n8\n00:02:41,550 --> 00:03:08,876\n你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做\n\n9\n00:03:09,352 --> 00:03:28,944\n哪一個單位做都要給我一份好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能組黨不要跟我說不會啦\n\n10\n00:03:30,994 --> 00:03:53,226\n現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以\n\n11\n00:03:54,947 --> 00:04:18,501\n第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好\n\n12\n00:04:19,554 --> 00:04:36,625\n我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嘛請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據\n\n13\n00:04:37,984 --> 00:04:52,879\n那這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是陳菊走了嘛跟善惑犯罪有什麼關係就是說她的這個散佈的這個訊息是不是正確那我跟你講啦就是說她是不是一個假的跟惡的跟害的這個狀況\n\n14\n00:04:53,800 --> 00:05:21,237\n不是啊到最後法院根本不支持你們所以你現在的說法完全不合理所以那個案件是去做了解嘛調查了解到底有沒有這種背後是什麼樣的我跟你講喔有沒有假惡害的這個狀況人民不一定能接受這樣好不好就像反滲透法大量的人被用反滲透法查辦但是目前起訴的件數很少判有罪的更低到現在只有事件判有罪都還沒有確定但是大量的不起訴牽結\n\n15\n00:05:22,758 --> 00:05:49,905\n這個對人民就是老民這對人民很多人會覺得這就是政治的無端受政治牽連政治攻擊所以這個不是在保護執政黨這反而害了執政黨讓執政黨背黑鍋所以你是偵查機關你們不能做這種事情因為國安是要保護人民不是防備人民那不要讓保護變成是監控人民那人民以為保護我人安全就後來我每天都活在恐懼之中這部分麻煩你們要注意千萬不要\n\n16\n00:05:50,598 --> 00:06:10,938\n拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付我們保障國家安全我絕對支持強化國防我也絕對支持但是不能拿這個當理由不然最後我說啦不要讓關鍵字的搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬不要讓資料庫變黑名單啦\n\n17\n00:06:14,434 --> 00:06:40,584\n兩個機關貴機關你們是圓釘圓釘在修剪花草的時候只是把花園裡面的害草那個有不好的草不漂亮的草我們把它剪掉你不能把自己變成除草機整個推過去好的壞的一起砍掉國家安全很重要但是請注意我們人民的權利很重要要有法律授權那請你們一個月內把這個資料給我那我在這邊有一個三大要求在PPT上面一個月內\n\n18\n00:06:41,192 --> 00:06:43,254\n能夠把這個資料回覆給我好不好好謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1519\t10391\t謝謝主席我們麻煩請國安局還有警政署國安局警政署委員好\n11564\t38181\t好 梁院長那我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告我主要是針對一個資料庫的部分想要進行了解就是國家安全國安的部分其實我們絕對是贊成而且非常的支持一定要維護我們國家安全以及我國元首的安全這我絕對支持但是執行要符合比例原則要符合法律的規定不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱上方保健 愛砍誰就砍誰\n39690\t65967\t那我想請問一下那這次國安局的報告裡面有提到說對於政治極端主義有暴露傾向的行為要建置資料庫那我想請問一下這個資料庫這個法律的授權是哪裡來可不可以請你說明一下報告委員我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口不是不是不要跟我講這個我國做什麼事情要法律授權請問一下法律授權哪裡哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫\n68410\t85493\t好 那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至\n86454\t101051\t收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到\n101772\t129745\t他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來\n131743\t161032\t他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚\n161550\t188876\t你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做\n189352\t208944\t哪一個單位做都要給我一份好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能 組黨不要跟我說不會啦\n210994\t233226\t現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以\n234947\t258501\t第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好\n259554\t276625\t我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嘛請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據\n277984\t292879\t那這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是 陳菊走了嘛 跟善惑犯罪有什麼關係就是說她的這個散佈的這個訊息是不是正確那我跟你講啦就是說她是不是一個假的跟惡的跟害的這個狀況\n293800\t321237\t不是啊到最後法院根本不支持你們所以你現在的說法完全不合理所以那個案件是去做了解嘛調查了解到底有沒有這種背後是什麼樣的我跟你講喔有沒有假惡害的這個狀況人民不一定能接受這樣好不好就像反滲透法大量的人被用反滲透法查辦但是目前起訴的件數很少判有罪的更低到現在只有事件判有罪都還沒有確定但是大量的不起訴牽結\n322758\t349905\t這個對人民就是老民這對人民很多人會覺得這就是政治的無端受政治牽連政治攻擊所以這個不是在保護執政黨這反而害了執政黨讓執政黨背黑鍋所以你是偵查機關你們不能做這種事情因為國安是要保護人民不是防備人民那不要讓保護變成是監控人民那人民以為保護我人安全就後來我每天都活在恐懼之中這部分麻煩你們要注意千萬不要\n350598\t370938\t拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付我們保障國家安全我絕對支持強化國防我也絕對支持但是不能拿這個當理由不然最後我說啦不要讓關鍵字的搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬不要讓資料庫變黑名單啦\n374434\t400584\t兩個機關貴機關你們是圓釘圓釘在修剪花草的時候只是把花園裡面的害草那個有不好的草不漂亮的草我們把它剪掉你不能把自己變成除草機整個推過去好的壞的一起砍掉國家安全很重要但是請注意我們人民的權利很重要要有法律授權那請你們一個月內把這個資料給我那我在這邊有一個三大要求在PPT上面一個月內\n401192\t403254\t能夠把這個資料回覆給我好不好好謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們麻煩請國安局還有警政署國安局警政署委員好\n好 梁院長那我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告我主要是針對一個資料庫的部分想要進行了解就是國家安全國安的部分其實我們絕對是贊成而且非常的支持一定要維護我們國家安全以及我國元首的安全這我絕對支持但是執行要符合比例原則要符合法律的規定不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱上方保健 愛砍誰就砍誰\n那我想請問一下那這次國安局的報告裡面有提到說對於政治極端主義有暴露傾向的行為要建置資料庫那我想請問一下這個資料庫這個法律的授權是哪裡來可不可以請你說明一下報告委員我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口不是不是不要跟我講這個我國做什麼事情要法律授權請問一下法律授權哪裡哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫\n好 那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至\n收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到\n他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來\n他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚\n你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做\n哪一個單位做都要給我一份好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能 組黨不要跟我說不會啦\n現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以\n第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好\n我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嘛請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據\n那這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是 陳菊走了嘛 跟善惑犯罪有什麼關係就是說她的這個散佈的這個訊息是不是正確那我跟你講啦就是說她是不是一個假的跟惡的跟害的這個狀況\n不是啊到最後法院根本不支持你們所以你現在的說法完全不合理所以那個案件是去做了解嘛調查了解到底有沒有這種背後是什麼樣的我跟你講喔有沒有假惡害的這個狀況人民不一定能接受這樣好不好就像反滲透法大量的人被用反滲透法查辦但是目前起訴的件數很少判有罪的更低到現在只有事件判有罪都還沒有確定但是大量的不起訴牽結\n這個對人民就是老民這對人民很多人會覺得這就是政治的無端受政治牽連政治攻擊所以這個不是在保護執政黨這反而害了執政黨讓執政黨背黑鍋所以你是偵查機關你們不能做這種事情因為國安是要保護人民不是防備人民那不要讓保護變成是監控人民那人民以為保護我人安全就後來我每天都活在恐懼之中這部分麻煩你們要注意千萬不要\n拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付我們保障國家安全我絕對支持強化國防我也絕對支持但是不能拿這個當理由不然最後我說啦不要讓關鍵字的搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬不要讓資料庫變黑名單啦\n兩個機關貴機關你們是圓釘圓釘在修剪花草的時候只是把花園裡面的害草那個有不好的草不漂亮的草我們把它剪掉你不能把自己變成除草機整個推過去好的壞的一起砍掉國家安全很重要但是請注意我們人民的權利很重要要有法律授權那請你們一個月內把這個資料給我那我在這邊有一個三大要求在PPT上面一個月內\n能夠把這個資料回覆給我好不好好謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.519 --> 00:10.391\n謝謝主席我們麻煩請國安局還有警政署國安局警政署委員好\n\n00:11.564 --> 00:38.181\n好梁院長那我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告我主要是針對一個資料庫的部分想要進行了解就是國家安全國安的部分其實我們絕對是贊成而且非常的支持一定要維護我們國家安全以及我國元首的安全這我絕對支持但是執行要符合比例原則要符合法律的規定不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱上方保健愛砍誰就砍誰\n\n00:39.690 --> 01:05.967\n那我想請問一下那這次國安局的報告裡面有提到說對於政治極端主義有暴露傾向的行為要建置資料庫那我想請問一下這個資料庫這個法律的授權是哪裡來可不可以請你說明一下報告委員我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口不是不是不要跟我講這個我國做什麼事情要法律授權請問一下法律授權哪裡哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫\n\n01:08.410 --> 01:25.493\n好那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至\n\n01:26.454 --> 01:41.051\n收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到\n\n01:41.772 --> 02:09.745\n他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來\n\n02:11.743 --> 02:41.032\n他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚\n\n02:41.550 --> 03:08.876\n你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做\n\n03:09.352 --> 03:28.944\n哪一個單位做都要給我一份好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能組黨不要跟我說不會啦\n\n03:30.994 --> 03:53.226\n現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以\n\n03:54.947 --> 04:18.501\n第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好\n\n04:19.554 --> 04:36.625\n我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嘛請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據\n\n04:37.984 --> 04:52.879\n那這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是陳菊走了嘛跟善惑犯罪有什麼關係就是說她的這個散佈的這個訊息是不是正確那我跟你講啦就是說她是不是一個假的跟惡的跟害的這個狀況\n\n04:53.800 --> 05:21.237\n不是啊到最後法院根本不支持你們所以你現在的說法完全不合理所以那個案件是去做了解嘛調查了解到底有沒有這種背後是什麼樣的我跟你講喔有沒有假惡害的這個狀況人民不一定能接受這樣好不好就像反滲透法大量的人被用反滲透法查辦但是目前起訴的件數很少判有罪的更低到現在只有事件判有罪都還沒有確定但是大量的不起訴牽結\n\n05:22.758 --> 05:49.905\n這個對人民就是老民這對人民很多人會覺得這就是政治的無端受政治牽連政治攻擊所以這個不是在保護執政黨這反而害了執政黨讓執政黨背黑鍋所以你是偵查機關你們不能做這種事情因為國安是要保護人民不是防備人民那不要讓保護變成是監控人民那人民以為保護我人安全就後來我每天都活在恐懼之中這部分麻煩你們要注意千萬不要\n\n05:50.598 --> 06:10.938\n拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付我們保障國家安全我絕對支持強化國防我也絕對支持但是不能拿這個當理由不然最後我說啦不要讓關鍵字的搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬不要讓資料庫變黑名單啦\n\n06:14.434 --> 06:40.584\n兩個機關貴機關你們是圓釘圓釘在修剪花草的時候只是把花園裡面的害草那個有不好的草不漂亮的草我們把它剪掉你不能把自己變成除草機整個推過去好的壞的一起砍掉國家安全很重要但是請注意我們人民的權利很重要要有法律授權那請你們一個月內把這個資料給我那我在這邊有一個三大要求在PPT上面一個月內\n\n06:41.192 --> 06:43.254\n能夠把這個資料回覆給我好不好好謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.519,"end":10.391,"text":"謝謝主席我們麻煩請國安局還有警政署國安局警政署委員好"},{"start":11.564,"end":38.181,"text":"好 梁院長那我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告我主要是針對一個資料庫的部分想要進行了解就是國家安全國安的部分其實我們絕對是贊成而且非常的支持一定要維護我們國家安全以及我國元首的安全這我絕對支持但是執行要符合比例原則要符合法律的規定不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱上方保健 愛砍誰就砍誰"},{"start":39.69,"end":65.967,"text":"那我想請問一下那這次國安局的報告裡面有提到說對於政治極端主義有暴露傾向的行為要建置資料庫那我想請問一下這個資料庫這個法律的授權是哪裡來可不可以請你說明一下報告委員我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口不是不是不要跟我講這個我國做什麼事情要法律授權請問一下法律授權哪裡哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫"},{"start":68.41,"end":85.493,"text":"好 那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至"},{"start":86.454,"end":101.051,"text":"收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到"},{"start":101.772,"end":129.745,"text":"他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來"},{"start":131.743,"end":161.032,"text":"他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚"},{"start":161.55,"end":188.876,"text":"你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做"},{"start":189.352,"end":208.944,"text":"哪一個單位做都要給我一份好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能 組黨不要跟我說不會啦"},{"start":210.994,"end":233.226,"text":"現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以"},{"start":234.947,"end":258.501,"text":"第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好"},{"start":259.554,"end":276.625,"text":"我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嘛請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據"},{"start":277.984,"end":292.879,"text":"那這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是 陳菊走了嘛 跟善惑犯罪有什麼關係就是說她的這個散佈的這個訊息是不是正確那我跟你講啦就是說她是不是一個假的跟惡的跟害的這個狀況"},{"start":293.8,"end":321.237,"text":"不是啊到最後法院根本不支持你們所以你現在的說法完全不合理所以那個案件是去做了解嘛調查了解到底有沒有這種背後是什麼樣的我跟你講喔有沒有假惡害的這個狀況人民不一定能接受這樣好不好就像反滲透法大量的人被用反滲透法查辦但是目前起訴的件數很少判有罪的更低到現在只有事件判有罪都還沒有確定但是大量的不起訴牽結"},{"start":322.758,"end":349.905,"text":"這個對人民就是老民這對人民很多人會覺得這就是政治的無端受政治牽連政治攻擊所以這個不是在保護執政黨這反而害了執政黨讓執政黨背黑鍋所以你是偵查機關你們不能做這種事情因為國安是要保護人民不是防備人民那不要讓保護變成是監控人民那人民以為保護我人安全就後來我每天都活在恐懼之中這部分麻煩你們要注意千萬不要"},{"start":350.598,"end":370.938,"text":"拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付我們保障國家安全我絕對支持強化國防我也絕對支持但是不能拿這個當理由不然最後我說啦不要讓關鍵字的搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬不要讓資料庫變黑名單啦"},{"start":374.434,"end":400.584,"text":"兩個機關貴機關你們是圓釘圓釘在修剪花草的時候只是把花園裡面的害草那個有不好的草不漂亮的草我們把它剪掉你不能把自己變成除草機整個推過去好的壞的一起砍掉國家安全很重要但是請注意我們人民的權利很重要要有法律授權那請你們一個月內把這個資料給我那我在這邊有一個三大要求在PPT上面一個月內"},{"start":401.192,"end":403.254,"text":"能夠把這個資料回覆給我好不好好謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":673,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局還有警政署。"],["主席：請國安局、警政署。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位早。我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告、我主要是針對資料庫的部分想要進行了解，就國家安全的部分，我們絕對是贊成，而且非常支持一定要維護我們的國家安全以及我國元首的安全，這我絕對支持，但是執行要符合比例原則、要符合法律的規定，不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱、尚方寶劍，愛砍誰就砍誰。這一次國安局的報告裡面有提到，對於政治極端主義有暴力傾向的行為要建置資料庫，請問這個資料庫的法律授權是哪裡來，可不可以請你說明一下？"],["林執行長媽喜：報告委員，我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是、不是，不要跟我講這個，我國做什麼事情都要有法律授權，請問一下法律授權哪裡來？哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫？好，沒關係，你講不出來就算了。我還是要跟你講，111年憲判字第13號針對健保資料庫，大法官曾經有做出資料庫建置一定要有法律上的標準，當時要知道蒐集對象是誰、目的是什麼、要件是什麼、保存期限等等，甚至蒐集而得的資料監督機制都非常重要，我們不能讓你們建置的這個資料庫變成黑名單用。我們以前為了廢除刑法第一百條，希望海外流亡分子可以回到他們認為的黑名單、可以回到臺灣，我們做了多少努力？那是當年我還是學生的時候，結果今天我們要越走越回去嗎？還要由國家來建置一個資料庫，去把哪一些他覺得有問題的人列出黑名單。你要這麼做我沒有意見，但是必須要有法律授權。請你們記得這件事，不能用國家安全或元首維安想做什麼就做什麼。","第一個，你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼，再來是資料庫蒐集之後怎麼用、目的是什麼、對象是誰，如果你們搞不清楚，你們去問一下林明昕政委，他對這一塊比較熟，不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫，這樣會讓臺灣已經不像法治國家，變成警察國家，這是不應該的。可不可以請你們就有關這個部分能夠提供一份報告來跟我們說清楚，你們蒐集資料庫的目的、對象、要件、保存方式以及監督單位是哪一些，要跟我說清楚，好不好？這個很重要，如果沒有，你根本就違法。再來，今天我本來想要問你們幾個問題，但是你可能連法律授權都不清楚，所以我問了你可能也答不出來，但是整個制定要點，還有SOP都要給我一份，關於你們怎麼做、由誰做、哪一個單位做都要給我一份。","我直接跟你們講，這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點，我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關，第一個，資料庫會不會變成黑名單，這個很重要，署長不要跟我說不會，現在國家在幹什麼，我們不是不懂，我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化。因為人治的地方一定會產生風險，我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念，所以它才壯大，這也是為了民主，我們不能讓國家走回頭路，我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來箝制人民的思想，所以第一個，只要你們的邊界不清楚、SOP不清楚，人民都會擔心被列入黑名單。再來是網路和資料怎麼蒐集，我們臺灣之所以讓中國大陸的人很羨慕，是因為我們有非常自由的言論，我們在網路上面也很自由，你今天要返回去走是不是就應該要自我控制好？會不會到最後變成只要有「賴清德」三個字，你就跳黑名單出來？我是擔心這個點。還有之前有人寫「陳菊走了？」後來就被查辦，請問警政署署長，員警查辦是不是有法律依據？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分就是是不是煽惑犯罪的這個狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，「陳菊走了？」與煽惑犯罪有什麼關係？"],["張署長榮興：就是他散布的這個訊息是不是正確，是不是一個假的、惡的、害的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！到最後法院根本不支持你們，所以你現在的說法完全不合理。"],["張署長榮興：所以那個案件是去做調查了解，到底背後有沒有假惡害的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，人民不一定能接受這樣，好不好？就像反滲透法，大量的人被用反滲透法查辦，但是目前起訴的件數很少，判有罪的更低，到現在只有4件判有罪，都還沒有確定，但是大量的不起訴簽結，這個對人民就是擾民，很多人會覺得這就是無端受政治牽連、政治攻擊。所以這個不是在保護執政黨，反而害了執政黨，讓執政黨背黑鍋，你是偵查機關，你們不能做這種事情，因為國安是要保護人民，不是防備人民，不要讓保護變成是監控人民，人民以為是保護我的安全，結果後來我每天都活在恐懼之中，這個部分麻煩你們要注意，千萬不要拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民，不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付。保障國家安全我絕對支持、強化國防我也絕對支持，但是不能拿這個當理由。最後我要說的是，不要讓關鍵字搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬、不要讓資料庫變黑名單。兩個機關、貴機關，你們是園丁，園丁在修剪花草的時候，只是把花園裡面的害草、不好的草、不漂亮的草剪掉，你不能把自己變成除草機，整個推過去，好的、壞的一起砍掉。","國家安全很重要，但是請注意我們人民的權利也很重要，所以要有法律授權，請你們一個月內把這個資料給我。我有三大要求，在PPT上面，一個月內能夠把這個資料回復給我，好不好？謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員的質詢。","請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}}