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453.362, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 453.362, \"end\": 453.582, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 453.582, \"end\": 453.782, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 453.782, \"end\": 454.022, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 454.022, \"end\": 454.283, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 454.283, \"end\": 454.963, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"飲\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 454.963, \"end\": 455.203, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 455.203, \"end\": 455.403, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 455.403, \"end\": 455.523, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 455.523, \"end\": 456.084, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 456.084, \"end\": 457.044, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 457.044, \"end\": 457.164, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 457.164, \"end\": 457.284, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 457.284, \"end\": 457.464, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 457.464, \"end\": 457.744, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 457.744, \"end\": 458.125, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 458.125, \"end\": 458.205, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 458.205, \"end\": 458.445, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 458.445, \"end\": 458.645, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 458.645, \"end\": 458.765, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 458.765, \"end\": 459.085, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 459.085, \"end\": 459.225, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 459.225, \"end\": 459.365, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 459.365, \"end\": 459.685, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, 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{\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 462.467, \"end\": 462.607, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 462.607, \"end\": 463.127, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 463.127, \"end\": 463.227, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 463.227, \"end\": 463.567, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 463.567, \"end\": 463.908, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 463.908, \"end\": 464.428, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 464.428, \"end\": 464.648, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 464.648, \"end\": 464.888, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 464.888, \"end\": 465.088, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 465.088, \"end\": 465.188, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 465.188, \"end\": 465.609, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 465.609, \"end\": 466.089, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 466.089, \"end\": 466.229, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.229, \"end\": 466.709, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 466.709, \"end\": 466.949, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 466.949, \"end\": 467.209, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 467.209, \"end\": 467.469, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"m\", \"start\": 467.469, \"end\": 467.57, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"g\", \"start\": 467.57, \"end\": 467.73, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"p\", \"start\": 467.73, \"end\": 467.75, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"l\", \"start\": 467.75, \"end\": 468.01, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 468.01, \"end\": 468.03, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}]}, {\"start\": 472.611, \"end\": 493.24, \"text\": \"那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 472.611, \"end\": 472.711, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 472.711, \"end\": 472.851, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 472.851, \"end\": 473.191, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 473.191, \"end\": 473.311, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 473.311, \"end\": 474.412, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 474.412, \"end\": 474.932, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 474.932, \"end\": 475.112, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 475.112, \"end\": 477.813, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 477.813, \"end\": 478.053, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"陽\", \"start\": 478.053, \"end\": 478.854, \"score\": 0.925}, 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"邱\", \"start\": 666.552, \"end\": 666.753, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 666.753, \"end\": 667.074, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 667.074, \"end\": 667.175, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 667.175, \"end\": 667.195, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,482 --> 00:00:12,406\n主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,127 --> 00:00:31,688\n邱委員好部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的\n\n3\n00:00:32,308 --> 00:00:56,526\n我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面\n\n4\n00:00:58,307 --> 00:01:26,215\n對等於是會欠缺了一些彈性你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳補桌跟風存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去訂的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好執法如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎\n\n5\n00:01:28,676 --> 00:01:43,225\n報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以\n\n6\n00:01:43,425 --> 00:02:01,699\n我知道啦能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊\n\n7\n00:02:03,176 --> 00:02:30,789\n也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性\n\n8\n00:02:32,029 --> 00:02:54,002\n如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛但是因為\n\n9\n00:02:56,824 --> 00:03:14,674\n也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要來講修\n\n10\n00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:32,154\n你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應\n\n11\n00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:51,894\n沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高\n\n12\n00:03:52,535 --> 00:04:14,553\n而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊\n\n13\n00:04:15,687 --> 00:04:30,533\n當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的\n\n14\n00:04:38,658 --> 00:04:50,765\n現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要啊\n\n15\n00:04:52,304 --> 00:05:17,831\n我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的\n\n16\n00:05:19,261 --> 00:05:36,296\n好啦我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光烈納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說\n\n17\n00:05:47,445 --> 00:06:04,897\n這個烏山頭水庫檢測出因離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你你回答一下好了是這樣嗎報委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的的確是這個樣子\n\n18\n00:06:08,717 --> 00:06:37,464\n那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼模型機器並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確它是在一個儀器的偵測的一個敏感值裡面他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那你們是做什麼對這個很了解對他們很了解你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長\n\n19\n00:06:38,880 --> 00:07:03,969\n跟委員報告它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法\n\n20\n00:07:04,909 --> 00:07:06,129\n那所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是\n\n21\n00:07:25,458 --> 00:07:48,030\n那我再問你我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了它今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的限值是0.5mgpl好謝謝\n\n22\n00:07:52,611 --> 00:08:13,240\n那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚\n\n23\n00:08:15,493 --> 00:08:40,432\n報告委員這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚的所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦\n\n24\n00:08:41,742 --> 00:09:05,440\n事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他還是你們講好的不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查\n\n25\n00:09:07,364 --> 00:09:25,976\n對啊因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電工程都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久抽查一次我們不定\n\n26\n00:09:28,952 --> 00:09:54,518\n我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行\n\n27\n00:09:56,238 --> 00:10:16,566\n不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入\n\n28\n00:10:17,125 --> 00:10:33,656\n他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣了嗎沒有不行他只是試併連而已試併連然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照電業的執照執照拿到執照之後我們還管不管\n\n29\n00:10:34,532 --> 00:11:03,141\n當然持續在管啊生設開始籌設一直到施工甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘好不好\n\n30\n00:11:06,552 --> 00:11:07,195\n謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9482\t12406\t主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長\n16127\t31688\t邱委員好 部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的\n32308\t56526\t我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面\n58307\t86215\t對 等於是會欠缺了一些彈性你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳補桌跟風存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去訂的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法 母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好執法如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎\n88676\t103225\t報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以\n103425\t121699\t我知道啦 能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊\n123176\t150789\t也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW 15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性\n152029\t174002\t如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛但是因為\n176824\t194674\t也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要來講修\n198720\t212154\t你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應\n215356\t231894\t沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高\n232535\t254553\t而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊\n255687\t270533\t當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的\n278658\t290765\t現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要啊\n292304\t317831\t我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的\n319261\t336296\t好啦 我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對 我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光烈納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說\n347445\t364897\t這個烏山頭水庫檢測出因離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你 你回答一下好了是這樣嗎 報委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的 的確是這個樣子\n368717\t397464\t那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼模型機器並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確它是在一個儀器的偵測的一個敏感值裡面他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那你們是做什麼對這個很了解 對他們很了解 你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長\n398880\t423969\t跟委員報告 它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法\n424909\t426129\t那所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是\n445458\t468030\t那我再問你我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了它今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的限值是0.5mgpl好 謝謝\n472611\t493240\t那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚\n495493\t520432\t報告委員 這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚的所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛 當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦\n521742\t545440\t事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對 如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他還是你們講好的不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查\n547364\t565976\t對啊 因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電工程都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久 抽查一次我們不定\n568952\t594518\t我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行\n596238\t616566\t不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入\n617125\t633656\t他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣了嗎沒有 不行 他只是試併連而已試併連 然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照 電業的執照執照 拿到執照之後我們還管不管\n634532\t663141\t當然持續在管啊 生設開始籌設一直到施工 甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦 我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好 政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘 好不好\n666552\t667195\t謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言\n","txt":"主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長\n邱委員好 部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的\n我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面\n對 等於是會欠缺了一些彈性你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳補桌跟風存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去訂的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法 母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好執法如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎\n報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以\n我知道啦 能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊\n也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW 15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性\n如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛但是因為\n也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要來講修\n你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應\n沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高\n而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊\n當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的\n現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要啊\n我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的\n好啦 我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對 我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光烈納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說\n這個烏山頭水庫檢測出因離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你 你回答一下好了是這樣嗎 報委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的 的確是這個樣子\n那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼模型機器並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確它是在一個儀器的偵測的一個敏感值裡面他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那你們是做什麼對這個很了解 對他們很了解 你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長\n跟委員報告 它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法\n那所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是\n那我再問你我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了它今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的限值是0.5mgpl好 謝謝\n那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚\n報告委員 這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚的所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛 當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦\n事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對 如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他還是你們講好的不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查\n對啊 因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電工程都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久 抽查一次我們不定\n我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行\n不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入\n他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣了嗎沒有 不行 他只是試併連而已試併連 然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照 電業的執照執照 拿到執照之後我們還管不管\n當然持續在管啊 生設開始籌設一直到施工 甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦 我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好 政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘 好不好\n謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.482 --> 00:12.406\n主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長\n\n00:16.127 --> 00:31.688\n邱委員好部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的\n\n00:32.308 --> 00:56.526\n我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面\n\n00:58.307 --> 01:26.215\n對等於是會欠缺了一些彈性你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳補桌跟風存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去訂的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好執法如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎\n\n01:28.676 --> 01:43.225\n報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以\n\n01:43.425 --> 02:01.699\n我知道啦能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊\n\n02:03.176 --> 02:30.789\n也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性\n\n02:32.029 --> 02:54.002\n如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛但是因為\n\n02:56.824 --> 03:14.674\n也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要來講修\n\n03:18.720 --> 03:32.154\n你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應\n\n03:35.356 --> 03:51.894\n沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高\n\n03:52.535 --> 04:14.553\n而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊\n\n04:15.687 --> 04:30.533\n當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的\n\n04:38.658 --> 04:50.765\n現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要啊\n\n04:52.304 --> 05:17.831\n我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的\n\n05:19.261 --> 05:36.296\n好啦我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光烈納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說\n\n05:47.445 --> 06:04.897\n這個烏山頭水庫檢測出因離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你你回答一下好了是這樣嗎報委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的的確是這個樣子\n\n06:08.717 --> 06:37.464\n那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼模型機器並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確它是在一個儀器的偵測的一個敏感值裡面他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那你們是做什麼對這個很了解對他們很了解你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長\n\n06:38.880 --> 07:03.969\n跟委員報告它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法\n\n07:04.909 --> 07:06.129\n那所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是\n\n07:25.458 --> 07:48.030\n那我再問你我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了它今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的限值是0.5mgpl好謝謝\n\n07:52.611 --> 08:13.240\n那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚\n\n08:15.493 --> 08:40.432\n報告委員這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚的所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦\n\n08:41.742 --> 09:05.440\n事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他還是你們講好的不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查\n\n09:07.364 --> 09:25.976\n對啊因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電工程都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久抽查一次我們不定\n\n09:28.952 --> 09:54.518\n我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行\n\n09:56.238 --> 10:16.566\n不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入\n\n10:17.125 --> 10:33.656\n他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣了嗎沒有不行他只是試併連而已試併連然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照電業的執照執照拿到執照之後我們還管不管\n\n10:34.532 --> 11:03.141\n當然持續在管啊生設開始籌設一直到施工甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘好不好\n\n11:06.552 --> 11:07.195\n謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.482,"end":12.406,"text":"主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":16.127,"end":31.688,"text":"邱委員好 部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的"},{"start":32.308,"end":56.526,"text":"我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面"},{"start":58.307,"end":86.215,"text":"對 等於是會欠缺了一些彈性你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳補桌跟風存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去訂的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法 母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好執法如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎"},{"start":88.676,"end":103.225,"text":"報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以"},{"start":103.425,"end":121.699,"text":"我知道啦 能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊"},{"start":123.176,"end":150.789,"text":"也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW 15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性"},{"start":152.029,"end":174.002,"text":"如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛但是因為"},{"start":176.824,"end":194.674,"text":"也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要來講修"},{"start":198.72,"end":212.154,"text":"你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應"},{"start":215.356,"end":231.894,"text":"沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高"},{"start":232.535,"end":254.553,"text":"而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊"},{"start":255.687,"end":270.533,"text":"當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的"},{"start":278.658,"end":290.765,"text":"現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要啊"},{"start":292.304,"end":317.831,"text":"我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的"},{"start":319.261,"end":336.296,"text":"好啦 我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對 我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光烈納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說"},{"start":347.445,"end":364.897,"text":"這個烏山頭水庫檢測出因離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你 你回答一下好了是這樣嗎 報委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的 的確是這個樣子"},{"start":368.717,"end":397.464,"text":"那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼模型機器並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確它是在一個儀器的偵測的一個敏感值裡面他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那你們是做什麼對這個很了解 對他們很了解 你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長"},{"start":398.88,"end":423.969,"text":"跟委員報告 它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法"},{"start":424.909,"end":426.129,"text":"那所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是"},{"start":445.458,"end":468.03,"text":"那我再問你我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了它今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的限值是0.5mgpl好 謝謝"},{"start":472.611,"end":493.24,"text":"那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚"},{"start":495.493,"end":520.432,"text":"報告委員 這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚的所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛 當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦"},{"start":521.742,"end":545.44,"text":"事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對 如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他還是你們講好的不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查"},{"start":547.364,"end":565.976,"text":"對啊 因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電工程都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久 抽查一次我們不定"},{"start":568.952,"end":594.518,"text":"我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行"},{"start":596.238,"end":616.566,"text":"不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入"},{"start":617.125,"end":633.656,"text":"他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣了嗎沒有 不行 他只是試併連而已試併連 然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照 電業的執照執照 拿到執照之後我們還管不管"},{"start":634.532,"end":663.141,"text":"當然持續在管啊 生設開始籌設一直到施工 甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦 我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好 政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘 好不好"},{"start":666.552,"end":667.195,"text":"謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時43分）主席好，我們請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我們現在討論一下，我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階，這個部分部長您支持嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為環評在我們的子法裡面就有定義了，我們有一個子法，如果拉到母法層位階，因為這要與時俱進，我怕我們每年都會發現新的東西，遺漏的都會加進去，如果是由行政機關在子法裡訂定就會比較快，這次如果大院要修訂到母法，那恐怕……"],["邱委員鎮軍：提上去不是比較好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：提上去之後，因為我們現在所有的項目都在子法裡面，等於會欠缺一些彈性，所以我們是建議……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你的彈性是要用來幹嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：我舉例，例如最近的碳捕捉和封存在地底下，那種以前是不用環評，也不知道怎麼去訂，我們現在發現這個需要環評，就會想要把它列進去，所以我們每年都會定期修正我們的子法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得母法的部分還是要把它寫清楚，讓底下的子法比較好執行，如果有需要調整我們再調整，不是嗎？"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，我們的母法是訂我們有權責可以去訂認定標準，而我們的認定標準滾動檢討，隨時發現有新的該加進去，或者說舊的訂得不好必須要再加強的話，我們隨時可以檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道啦！能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下，我知道你們有很多為難的地方，但是站在環境部的立場，應該要以環境永續，還有建立人民健康的立場去把關。我們現在把工具給你，你應該要很高興才對啊！"],["彭部長啓明：也謝謝委員，其實去年委員就給我們工具、給我們鼓勵，所以我們1月16號訂了這個法案，現在其實都照著做，例如敏感區域20MW、15公頃就要環評，這樣我們的速度也很快就可以做得到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我覺得如果把這個東西寫在母法裡面，把紅線寫死，讓可能發生的子法鬆綁、地方施壓的狀況降到最低，這個叫提高確定性。如果你們支持敏感保護區，其實沒有理由反對把紅線寫在母法上面，你們這是怕以後面對財團或者是大企業沒有辦法處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為敏感保護區的定義隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣，當然環境部是以保護環境……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是報告委員，因為我們所有的環評標準都是經由討論讓各方的意見出來，我們現在的程序，包括公聽或是公告的方式，也都是把那個程序弄進來，其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到，如果修母法的話，以後每一個都要這樣修。"],["邱委員鎮軍：經濟部，你們送來的報告跟七大光電公協會的說帖放在旁邊對照一下，幾乎論點都是一模一樣，是巧合還是你們已經有心電感應？"],["賴次長建信：沒有所謂的……基本上，我們有自己的主張。首先跟委員說明，國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的，比如說報告裡面所寫的，無論是日本或是歐洲，都是發展非常快速，而且占比非常高，而各國對於光電的發展都是持續開發。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是你們部長之前說只要地方居民不肯就不做，卓院長好像也這樣講，這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我們基本上還是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們喜歡拿國外來講，日本是40MW才要環評，日本面積是臺灣的幾倍？"],["賴次長建信：當然比臺灣大很多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！所以每個地方的地理環境、人文，還有對政府的信任度不一樣，因為你們的話術太多，環評會影響開發的時間，對於部長之前講過的話，我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的，現在居民不想要有光電板，廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意，有時候有很大的阻礙，你覺得現在如果都不要的話，是不是環境部沒有存在的必要？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是要的，我們是希望能夠有一些管制的方式，現在全世界國家的環評標準都有把它列出來，所以我們是相對已經很嚴格了，但是如果設到1MW都要的話，其實搞不好大家願意申設的機會就會少很多，基本上我們認為這其實是可以供社會大家來討論的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！我是覺得你把法律位階確定會比較好一點。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們也是認同委員的建議啦！像光電納入環評，民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評，其實能源署也在做這樣的事情，我們也鼓勵、也希望可以這樣做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請農業部。黃次長，農業部說烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子界面活性劑，但無法判定是人工還是天然，麻煩彭部長回答一下好了，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是農業部農水署他們量的，的確是這個樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們有做過判斷嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有特別量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：因為陰離子活性劑並不是我們飲用水的標準之一，當然我們是看他們的數據，因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感，的確它是在一個儀器偵測的敏感值裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是他們在判定還是你在判定？"],["彭部長啓明：是他們在判定，我們自己的同仁……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你們是做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：對這個很了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們很了解，你不了解？"],["彭部長啓明：請水保司司長說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，偵測出來的濃度大概是0.05到0.07，這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面，即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是2倍的偵測極限，換言之就是說，空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們是用什麼方法測？"],["王司長嶽斌：這個叫做比色法，就是甲烯藍比色法，這是目前國環院所公告的一個標準檢驗方法，也是國際上所通用的陰離子界面活性劑的一個檢驗方法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了？"],["王司長嶽斌：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。那我再問你，我們的飲用水我記得是沒有檢測陰離子界面活性劑，對不對？"],["王司長嶽斌：報告委員，是有的，我們的飲用水水質標準68項……"],["邱委員鎮軍：都有加進去就對了？"],["王司長嶽斌：去年又增加了2項，總共70項，70項裡面就有一個陰離子界面活性劑，它是屬於所謂適飲性感觀物質的一個項目，它的限值是0.5mg/L。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。","另外我再問農業部和經濟部，太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽，那漁電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，既然是漁電共生，那一定是必須存在的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們現在的漁電共生有7成裡面沒魚。"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，這個部分可能是有一些誤解，事實上有一些申請如果是已經完成的部分，裡面一定是要有養魚。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他做好之後就把魚放下去，然後你們來檢查，然後魚死了也不管就對了？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們每年都會有固定的檢查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前統計只有12%的違規，可是有7成是不符合漁電共生條件的魚塭，這些怎麼辦？"],["黃次長昭欽：事實上我們有定期檢查，第二個部分是因為魚撈養殖是有產季的，並不是全年度都在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你去檢查的時候剛好是產季結束，然後把它撈走的時候，是這樣嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：對，這樣的情況也是有的，但是我們對於……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是你們講好的？"],["黃次長昭欽：不是只有魚而已，就是有沒有投餌，然後有沒有購買飼料、有沒有販售魚這樣的一些證明，我們都會有檢查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！因為我看到這個覺得很奇怪，為什麼漁電共生都看不到魚？有沒有真的在養魚？我想農業經營計畫裡面要落實這一塊，通過之後才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛！"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：才能拿到電業執照，現在是多久抽查一次？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們不定期，但是在光電業者的規定裡面是每年必須要有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能，經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門，只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板，就能以試營運的名義併網開始發電，我不希望這變成漏洞，希望你們主管機關能夠確實執行，不要變成讓業者是上有政策，下有對策，反正你們來之前放一些魚進去就可以了，這種事大家都會做啊！"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，基本上你剛剛講的試併聯，它只是一個試併聯網而已，它也沒有收入，也還沒拿到所謂的發電業的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它不是可以賣了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：沒有，不行，它只是試併聯而已。"],["邱委員鎮軍：試併聯，然後呢？等到什麼時候才可以用？"],["賴次長建信：等到它真正拿到發電的執照、電業的執照。"],["邱委員鎮軍：拿到執照之後，我們還管不管？"],["賴次長建信：當然持續在管，從開始籌設一直到施工，甚至施工完成的時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，已經完成之後。"],["賴次長建信：都持續要去管的。我們目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做橫向聯繫，針對於以農業為主……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！時間的問題，我希望你們確實嚴格把關，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：政策性的這個部分，你們不要讓業者有機可乘，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言。","請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}}