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00:00:32,242\n副參謀長想請教一下因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞就是說關於上校局長他涉嫌竊密還有一個包含他的這個海軍局長他有一些違法的連環報那這個是在新聞媒體上面有出現\n\n3\n00:00:33,283 --> 00:00:57,849\n那我比較關切的是他好像是使用這個未加密的這個軟體LINE然後直接來去指示他的下屬有沒有這件事情新聞所報導的事情是不是目前已經掌握的程度到什麼樣報告委員這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查細節的部分我請海軍參謀長給你做個報告\n\n4\n00:01:00,243 --> 00:01:17,360\n委員好針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查\n\n5\n00:01:18,061 --> 00:01:36,376\n那我们以日本的这个物网物众的情形那如果查证到有涉及不法或是失职部分我们会按规定来做一个处分那目前就这个加密软体有没有使用加密软体来去沟通还是使用一般民间的厂商的这种像LINE这样子这个应该有掌握吧\n\n6\n00:01:38,037 --> 00:01:58,851\n目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎\n\n7\n00:02:01,915 --> 00:02:16,023\n只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公務就不行了嘛公務的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中\n\n8\n00:02:18,244 --> 00:02:42,937\n我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局那包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置那這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體\n\n9\n00:02:43,917 --> 00:03:09,628\n那這樣就不對了吧理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為這種其實這些不是所謂的小事欸他們可能會如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體嘛\n\n10\n00:03:10,228 --> 00:03:37,012\n所以異常的狀況它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下副參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼\n\n11\n00:03:37,731 --> 00:03:55,118\n是報告委員實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的這個安全的情況各單位我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現實際上國防部每天都有相關的這個監測跟報告\n\n12\n00:03:57,719 --> 00:04:03,303\n那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反映上來的或者循系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分是通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人\n\n13\n00:04:27,119 --> 00:04:42,092\n做一個這個相關的立案調查那至於有時候會在媒體上出現那當然是有部分官兵會尋向外這個爆料的管道或者是他有別的這個用心或企圖那這一部分我們這個是\n\n14\n00:04:43,613 --> 00:04:50,922\n民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少暗面\n\n15\n00:04:57,509 --> 00:05:20,049\n異常事件的這個通報的這些指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛才有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下\n\n16\n00:05:21,070 --> 00:05:40,243\n那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船\n\n17\n00:05:40,723 --> 00:05:55,167\n那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答\n\n18\n00:05:58,977 --> 00:06:22,528\n委員好跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身的我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的是的\n\n19\n00:06:23,709 --> 00:06:53,020\n因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力\n\n20\n00:06:54,323 --> 00:07:13,565\n報告委員我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在他的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予他一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台\n\n21\n00:07:14,165 --> 00:07:38,023\n所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建置後面會比較一個完整的做好因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整\n\n22\n00:07:38,723 --> 00:07:52,871\n那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺\n\n23\n00:07:54,614 --> 00:08:17,720\n無人載具這個部分特別是無人潛艦就我們所知中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫目前的說法我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器我是想請教一下面對中國這麼多有UUV等等\n\n24\n00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:43,347\n不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n\n25\n00:08:44,934 --> 00:09:07,490\n有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它也實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具那當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的\n\n26\n00:09:08,154 --> 00:09:21,857\n那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作\n\n27\n00:09:22,705 --> 00:09:44,938\n好謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情\n\n28\n00:09:46,038 --> 00:10:08,124\n想請教一下因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源它的設備它的資源它的彈藥它的這些全面性的覆蓋怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的而且是最有性價比的去做防空或者是做對台灣的防衛這個部分我可能要請教一下副參謀長\n\n29\n00:10:09,784 --> 00:10:25,889\n哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個那但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有\n\n30\n00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:41,998\n相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是\n\n31\n00:10:43,479 --> 00:11:13,199\n有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头有很大一部分是要进行各项防空系\n\n32\n00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:27,733\n的整合運用也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益\n\n33\n00:11:29,571 --> 00:11:51,461\n副總長,我來簡單的做一個總結啦,因為有一些民眾可能擔心說這個TDO可能會消耗非常大的這個軍購或者是非常大的這個軍費但是其實按照我們軍方的解釋,他是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式來加強我國的整體防空能力\n\n34\n00:11:51,741 --> 00:12:14,454\n我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分那所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的这个不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1415\t6041\t不然我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長請副總長參謀總長參謀長委員好\n14291\t32242\t副參謀長想請教一下因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞就是說關於上校局長他涉嫌竊密還有一個包含他的這個海軍局長他有一些違法的連環報那這個是在新聞媒體上面有出現\n33283\t57849\t那我比較關切的是他好像是使用這個未加密的這個軟體LINE然後直接來去指示他的下屬有沒有這件事情新聞所報導的事情是不是目前已經掌握的程度到什麼樣報告委員這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查細節的部分我請海軍參謀長給你做個報告\n60243\t77360\t委員好 針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後 我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查\n78061\t96376\t那我们以日本的这个物网物众的情形那如果查证到有涉及不法或是失职部分我们会按规定来做一个处分那目前就这个加密软体有没有使用加密软体来去沟通还是使用一般民间的厂商的这种像LINE这样子这个应该有掌握吧\n98037\t118851\t目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎\n121915\t136023\t只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公務就不行了嘛公務的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中\n138244\t162937\t我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局那包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置那這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體\n163917\t189628\t那這樣就不對了吧 理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任 被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為這種 其實這些不是所謂的小事欸他們可能會 如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體嘛\n190228\t217012\t所以 異常的狀況 它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說 像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下 副參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼\n217731\t235118\t是報告委員實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的這個安全的情況各單位我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現實際上國防部每天都有相關的這個監測跟報告\n237719\t243303\t那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反映上來的或者循系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分是通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人\n267119\t282092\t做一個這個相關的立案調查那至於有時候會在媒體上出現那當然是有部分官兵會尋向外這個爆料的管道或者是他有別的這個用心或企圖那這一部分我們這個是\n283613\t290922\t民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少暗面\n297509\t320049\t異常事件的這個通報的這些指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛才有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下\n321070\t340243\t那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船\n340723\t355167\t那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答\n358977\t382528\t委員好 跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身的我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的 是的\n383709\t413020\t因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力\n414323\t433565\t報告委員 我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在他的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予他一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台\n434165\t458023\t所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建置後面會比較一個完整的做好因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整\n458723\t472871\t那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺\n474614\t497720\t無人載具這個部分 特別是無人潛艦就我們所知 中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫目前的說法 我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器我是想請教一下 面對中國這麼多有UUV等等\n498200\t523347\t不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n524934\t547490\t有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它也實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具那當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的\n548154\t561857\t那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作\n562705\t584938\t好 謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情\n586038\t608124\t想請教一下 因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源它的設備 它的資源 它的彈藥 它的這些全面性的覆蓋怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的 而且是最有性價比的去做防空或者是做對台灣的防衛這個部分我可能要請教一下副參謀長\n609784\t625889\t哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個那但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有\n626949\t641998\t相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是\n643479\t673199\t有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头有很大一部分是要进行各项防空系\n673519\t687733\t的整合運用也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益\n689571\t711461\t副總長,我來簡單的做一個總結啦,因為有一些民眾可能擔心說這個TDO可能會消耗非常大的這個軍購或者是非常大的這個軍費但是其實按照我們軍方的解釋,他是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式來加強我國的整體防空能力\n711741\t734454\t我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分那所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的这个不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟\n","txt":"不然我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長請副總長參謀總長參謀長委員好\n副參謀長想請教一下因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞就是說關於上校局長他涉嫌竊密還有一個包含他的這個海軍局長他有一些違法的連環報那這個是在新聞媒體上面有出現\n那我比較關切的是他好像是使用這個未加密的這個軟體LINE然後直接來去指示他的下屬有沒有這件事情新聞所報導的事情是不是目前已經掌握的程度到什麼樣報告委員這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查細節的部分我請海軍參謀長給你做個報告\n委員好 針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後 我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查\n那我们以日本的这个物网物众的情形那如果查证到有涉及不法或是失职部分我们会按规定来做一个处分那目前就这个加密软体有没有使用加密软体来去沟通还是使用一般民间的厂商的这种像LINE这样子这个应该有掌握吧\n目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎\n只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公務就不行了嘛公務的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中\n我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局那包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置那這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體\n那這樣就不對了吧 理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任 被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為這種 其實這些不是所謂的小事欸他們可能會 如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體嘛\n所以 異常的狀況 它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說 像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下 副參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼\n是報告委員實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的這個安全的情況各單位我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現實際上國防部每天都有相關的這個監測跟報告\n那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反映上來的或者循系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分是通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人\n做一個這個相關的立案調查那至於有時候會在媒體上出現那當然是有部分官兵會尋向外這個爆料的管道或者是他有別的這個用心或企圖那這一部分我們這個是\n民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少暗面\n異常事件的這個通報的這些指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛才有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下\n那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船\n那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答\n委員好 跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身的我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的 是的\n因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力\n報告委員 我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在他的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予他一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台\n所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建置後面會比較一個完整的做好因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整\n那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺\n無人載具這個部分 特別是無人潛艦就我們所知 中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫目前的說法 我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器我是想請教一下 面對中國這麼多有UUV等等\n不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它也實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具那當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的\n那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作\n好 謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情\n想請教一下 因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源它的設備 它的資源 它的彈藥 它的這些全面性的覆蓋怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的 而且是最有性價比的去做防空或者是做對台灣的防衛這個部分我可能要請教一下副參謀長\n哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個那但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有\n相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是\n有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头有很大一部分是要进行各项防空系\n的整合運用也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益\n副總長,我來簡單的做一個總結啦,因為有一些民眾可能擔心說這個TDO可能會消耗非常大的這個軍購或者是非常大的這個軍費但是其實按照我們軍方的解釋,他是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式來加強我國的整體防空能力\n我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分那所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的这个不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.415 --> 00:06.041\n不然我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長請副總長參謀總長參謀長委員好\n\n00:14.291 --> 00:32.242\n副參謀長想請教一下因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞就是說關於上校局長他涉嫌竊密還有一個包含他的這個海軍局長他有一些違法的連環報那這個是在新聞媒體上面有出現\n\n00:33.283 --> 00:57.849\n那我比較關切的是他好像是使用這個未加密的這個軟體LINE然後直接來去指示他的下屬有沒有這件事情新聞所報導的事情是不是目前已經掌握的程度到什麼樣報告委員這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查細節的部分我請海軍參謀長給你做個報告\n\n01:00.243 --> 01:17.360\n委員好針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查\n\n01:18.061 --> 01:36.376\n那我们以日本的这个物网物众的情形那如果查证到有涉及不法或是失职部分我们会按规定来做一个处分那目前就这个加密软体有没有使用加密软体来去沟通还是使用一般民间的厂商的这种像LINE这样子这个应该有掌握吧\n\n01:38.037 --> 01:58.851\n目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎\n\n02:01.915 --> 02:16.023\n只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公務就不行了嘛公務的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中\n\n02:18.244 --> 02:42.937\n我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局那包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置那這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體\n\n02:43.917 --> 03:09.628\n那這樣就不對了吧理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為這種其實這些不是所謂的小事欸他們可能會如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體嘛\n\n03:10.228 --> 03:37.012\n所以異常的狀況它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下副參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼\n\n03:37.731 --> 03:55.118\n是報告委員實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的這個安全的情況各單位我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現實際上國防部每天都有相關的這個監測跟報告\n\n03:57.719 --> 04:03.303\n那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反映上來的或者循系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分是通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人\n\n04:27.119 --> 04:42.092\n做一個這個相關的立案調查那至於有時候會在媒體上出現那當然是有部分官兵會尋向外這個爆料的管道或者是他有別的這個用心或企圖那這一部分我們這個是\n\n04:43.613 --> 04:50.922\n民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少暗面\n\n04:57.509 --> 05:20.049\n異常事件的這個通報的這些指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛才有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下\n\n05:21.070 --> 05:40.243\n那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船\n\n05:40.723 --> 05:55.167\n那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答\n\n05:58.977 --> 06:22.528\n委員好跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身的我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的是的\n\n06:23.709 --> 06:53.020\n因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力\n\n06:54.323 --> 07:13.565\n報告委員我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在他的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予他一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台\n\n07:14.165 --> 07:38.023\n所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建置後面會比較一個完整的做好因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整\n\n07:38.723 --> 07:52.871\n那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺\n\n07:54.614 --> 08:17.720\n無人載具這個部分特別是無人潛艦就我們所知中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫目前的說法我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器我是想請教一下面對中國這麼多有UUV等等\n\n08:18.200 --> 08:43.347\n不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n\n08:44.934 --> 09:07.490\n有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它也實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具那當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的\n\n09:08.154 --> 09:21.857\n那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作\n\n09:22.705 --> 09:44.938\n好謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情\n\n09:46.038 --> 10:08.124\n想請教一下因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源它的設備它的資源它的彈藥它的這些全面性的覆蓋怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的而且是最有性價比的去做防空或者是做對台灣的防衛這個部分我可能要請教一下副參謀長\n\n10:09.784 --> 10:25.889\n哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個那但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有\n\n10:26.949 --> 10:41.998\n相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是\n\n10:43.479 --> 11:13.199\n有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头有很大一部分是要进行各项防空系\n\n11:13.519 --> 11:27.733\n的整合運用也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益\n\n11:29.571 --> 11:51.461\n副總長,我來簡單的做一個總結啦,因為有一些民眾可能擔心說這個TDO可能會消耗非常大的這個軍購或者是非常大的這個軍費但是其實按照我們軍方的解釋,他是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式來加強我國的整體防空能力\n\n11:51.741 --> 12:14.454\n我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分那所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的这个不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.415,"end":6.041,"text":"不然我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長請副總長參謀總長參謀長委員好"},{"start":14.291,"end":32.242,"text":"副參謀長想請教一下因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞就是說關於上校局長他涉嫌竊密還有一個包含他的這個海軍局長他有一些違法的連環報那這個是在新聞媒體上面有出現"},{"start":33.283,"end":57.849,"text":"那我比較關切的是他好像是使用這個未加密的這個軟體LINE然後直接來去指示他的下屬有沒有這件事情新聞所報導的事情是不是目前已經掌握的程度到什麼樣報告委員這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查細節的部分我請海軍參謀長給你做個報告"},{"start":60.243,"end":77.36,"text":"委員好 針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後 我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查"},{"start":78.061,"end":96.376,"text":"那我们以日本的这个物网物众的情形那如果查证到有涉及不法或是失职部分我们会按规定来做一个处分那目前就这个加密软体有没有使用加密软体来去沟通还是使用一般民间的厂商的这种像LINE这样子这个应该有掌握吧"},{"start":98.037,"end":118.851,"text":"目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎"},{"start":121.915,"end":136.023,"text":"只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公務就不行了嘛公務的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中"},{"start":138.244,"end":162.937,"text":"我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局那包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置那這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體"},{"start":163.917,"end":189.628,"text":"那這樣就不對了吧 理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任 被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為這種 其實這些不是所謂的小事欸他們可能會 如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體嘛"},{"start":190.228,"end":217.012,"text":"所以 異常的狀況 它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說 像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下 副參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼"},{"start":217.731,"end":235.118,"text":"是報告委員實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的這個安全的情況各單位我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現實際上國防部每天都有相關的這個監測跟報告"},{"start":237.719,"end":243.303,"text":"那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反映上來的或者循系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分是通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人"},{"start":267.119,"end":282.092,"text":"做一個這個相關的立案調查那至於有時候會在媒體上出現那當然是有部分官兵會尋向外這個爆料的管道或者是他有別的這個用心或企圖那這一部分我們這個是"},{"start":283.613,"end":290.922,"text":"民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少暗面"},{"start":297.509,"end":320.049,"text":"異常事件的這個通報的這些指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛才有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下"},{"start":321.07,"end":340.243,"text":"那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船"},{"start":340.723,"end":355.167,"text":"那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答"},{"start":358.977,"end":382.528,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身的我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的 是的"},{"start":383.709,"end":413.02,"text":"因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力"},{"start":414.323,"end":433.565,"text":"報告委員 我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在他的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予他一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台"},{"start":434.165,"end":458.023,"text":"所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建置後面會比較一個完整的做好因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整"},{"start":458.723,"end":472.871,"text":"那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺"},{"start":474.614,"end":497.72,"text":"無人載具這個部分 特別是無人潛艦就我們所知 中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫目前的說法 我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器我是想請教一下 面對中國這麼多有UUV等等"},{"start":498.2,"end":523.347,"text":"不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":524.934,"end":547.49,"text":"有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它也實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具那當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的"},{"start":548.154,"end":561.857,"text":"那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作"},{"start":562.705,"end":584.938,"text":"好 謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情"},{"start":586.038,"end":608.124,"text":"想請教一下 因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源它的設備 它的資源 它的彈藥 它的這些全面性的覆蓋怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的 而且是最有性價比的去做防空或者是做對台灣的防衛這個部分我可能要請教一下副參謀長"},{"start":609.784,"end":625.889,"text":"哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個那但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有"},{"start":626.949,"end":641.998,"text":"相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是"},{"start":643.479,"end":673.199,"text":"有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头有很大一部分是要进行各项防空系"},{"start":673.519,"end":687.733,"text":"的整合運用也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益"},{"start":689.571,"end":711.461,"text":"副總長,我來簡單的做一個總結啦,因為有一些民眾可能擔心說這個TDO可能會消耗非常大的這個軍購或者是非常大的這個軍費但是其實按照我們軍方的解釋,他是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式來加強我國的整體防空能力"},{"start":711.741,"end":734.454,"text":"我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分那所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的这个不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時48分）我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長。"],["主席：請副總長、參謀長。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副參謀總長，想請教一下，因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞，就是關於上校局長涉嫌竊密，還有包含他有一些違法的連環報，這在新聞媒體上面有出現。我比較關切的是，他好像是使用未加密的軟體LINE，直接去指示他的下屬，有沒有這件事情？新聞所報導的事情，目前已經掌握到什麼樣的程度？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查，細節的部分，我請海軍參謀長給您做個報告。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。針對發生疑似這樣的事情，因為這件事情，他並沒有跟我們本部查詢，他也沒有跟個人查證，我們知道、掌握之後，我們已經完成正式的立案調查。我們本著勿枉勿縱的情形，如果查證到有涉及不法或是失職部分，我們會按規定處分。"],["陳委員冠廷：目前我就針對有沒有使用加密軟體去溝通，還是使用一般民間廠商像LINE這樣子的軟體，這個應該有掌握吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，目前我們還在做進一步的釐清，看他在公務群組裡面用的一些資料是不是事涉到機敏之類的。如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分，我們會按規定調查及處分。"],["陳委員冠廷：參謀長，應該這麼講好了，只要是公務，理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體傳遞這些訊息嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：只要事涉到機敏類的就不可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：應該說只要事涉到公務就不行了嘛，對嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：公務的話，如果是行政庶事，這有一定的規定……"],["陳委員冠廷：行政庶事是可以的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是如果事涉機敏的話那就不行，所以這個部分你們還在調查當中？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。我之前質詢國安局的時候，其實不只國安局，包含其他各個跨部會的部門，我就一直提到異常狀況的回報指南，這個東西我們是希望趕快建置，這是要跨部會去建置。","因為我現在發覺到一件事情，只要大家遇到異常的狀況，他們第一時間回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官，通常可能都是新聞媒體，這樣就不對了吧？理論上，第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引，而且是可以被官兵信任的，這樣他們才知道，他們如果上報上去的話，不會被大事化小。其實這些不是所謂的小事，如果是上報到自己上層的單位的話，甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣，他們有這樣的擔心，才會去找外面的媒體。","所以異常的狀況要有一個回報機制，回報機制你們必須要有反應，才不會有像這種類似的狀況，甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中內用言語霸凌這種狀況出現，我覺得這樣是不太好的，可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢？想請教一下副參謀總長，有沒有什麼樣的建議？或者是你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引、他們要回報的單位是什麼？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，實際上，每天有關於資安或者保防上安全的情況，各單位包括部本部、國防部裡頭相關單位，還有各基層單位，在執行任務的時候，如果有所發現，事實上，國防部每天都有相關的監測跟報告，也有基層官兵發現異常的時候，主動回報、反映上來的，或者循系統被我們自己查察發現回報上來的，也會做相關的處置。","不過有一部分，常常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的私德，或者是機敏的資訊，所以我們先完成相關的調查之後，如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦。如果是涉及部內管理的，我們會對單位或者是個人做相關的立案調查，至於有時候會在媒體上出現，當然是有部分官兵會循向外爆料的管道，或者是他有別的用心或企圖。這一部分，因為我們是民主的社會，有關於媒體的部分，我們也只能尊重，但是跟委員報告，的確我們是有內部查察跟申訴的管道，這都有在運作，我們也發現了不少案例。"],["陳委員冠廷：遇到異常事件通報的這些指引，我覺得還是要有啦！我剛才為什麼講這麼多？為什麼他們會想要媒體介入？可能有兩種情況：第一個，可能是你剛剛有講的，另有目的；另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法去做完整的處置，甚至就不處置。他們有這樣的擔心，所以今天特別來提一下。","我們現在來談一下關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域周邊的水文資訊，潛艦要發揮戰力的話，我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握臺灣周邊海域的水文資料。目前國科會有4艘海洋研究船，而國家海洋研究院預計在2026年完成3艘海洋研究調查船的建置，這些單位的水文圖資會跟國防部或者是海軍去做一些資訊共享嘛！這些資訊是有幫助的嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：我請海軍參謀長回答。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。跟委員報告，臺灣是個海島國家，所以我們周邊重要海上的交通線跟海域，我們目前都是跟海巡、國科會、國家的海洋智庫，還有我們本身大氣海洋局共同做一些海底探勘及情資分享，這是有做的。"],["陳委員冠廷：都有共同分享。因為我剛剛看到調查船有些是做環境研究，國海院的調查船是做海洋科學研究，目前你們海軍好像有一艘軍艦叫做達觀號？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：它是叫做海洋測量艦，目前是一艘？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們會不會覺得有必要再提升相關的這些測量能力，再多去建造，或者更多其他租用，或者是有其他方式去增強這方面的監測能力？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，委員之前也關心過這個問題。我們除了現在達觀軍艦之外，針對後面救難艦的潛艦，也在潛艦救難上，我們也同時間賦予它一些海洋蒐集跟海洋資料處理的平臺，所以以後應該不會只有達觀艦，在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料及相關水文資料的綜整跟建置，後續會有比較完整的作法。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力，偵蒐的能力，還有測量的能力，我想這些都是環環相扣的，未來如果有需要，我們希望能提出來，把這些資訊做得更完整。我之前有提到美國海軍新聞有報導，中國的海軍在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型無人潛航載具，好像有40到42公尺長。針對無人載具的部分，特別是無人潛艦，就我所知，中科院在2019年有跟民間廠商進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫，目前的說法是我們未來是軍民通用科技，並非新式的武器。","我想請教一下，面對中國擁有這麼多UUV等等不同的新無人載具，新的挑戰出現，我們台船一方面要專精在有人潛艦上面，未來我們有沒有足夠的生產線？因為你都要排程嘛！生產能力可能就只有這麼多，你關鍵的priority是什麼？想請教一下，未來對無人載具，你們的規劃是怎麼樣？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：有一部分是由中科院協助進行，我請院長做個答復。"],["李院長世強：我大概把委員剛剛的問題做個簡單的答復。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["李院長世強：就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫，實際上，產出了一艘水下無人載具，當時它的整個建造不是台船建造的，而是其他造船廠來建造的。未來我們有相關的一些科研計畫，我們還會繼續投資在國內的造船業界，當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫、跟學術界共同合作，包含跟國海院的合作。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。因為不管是在水下的無人潛艦，或者是在水上的無人水面艦，我想中國已經有花很多的心力在做了，我們自己可能也要思考一下，怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式，達到我們最大的作戰目的。","最後請容我再問一個問題，關於T-Dome的事情，想請教一下，因為我們現在要面臨的中國，是一個資源非常大的國家，它的設備、資源、彈藥，這些全面性的覆蓋，怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的，而且是最有性價比的去做防空，或者是做臺灣的防衛？針對這個部分，我可能要請教一下副參謀總長，哪些方式是比較符合性價比的？我們當然是可以去學以色列，以色列可能現在又要走向用雷射武器做防空的方式，就是又再進展一個階段，但是哪樣的性價比是最高的，目前有沒有相關的規劃？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，有關總統宣示我們要開始推動臺灣之盾（T-Dome），實際上，國防部還有空軍已經開始在做相關的規劃，主要就是有一部分的原因是您剛才提到的性價比。因應對方對我們來自空中的威脅已經非常多樣化，有些的確是對方用不對稱的方式、有些成本比較低的，卻可以對我們造成相當大的威脅。我們要考慮到我們自己資源的耗用，所以在這T-Dome的計畫裡，有很大一部分是要進行各項防空系統的整合運用，也就是當他對我們發動攻擊的時候，我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種，對到什麼區域，我們可以用哪一種防衛武器發揮最大的效益。"],["陳委員冠廷：副總長，我簡單的做個總結，因為有一些民眾擔心這T-Dome可能會消耗非常大的軍購，或者是非常大的軍費。但是，其實按照你們軍方的解釋，它是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式，來加強我國整體的防空能力，我這樣的解讀是不是正確？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是的，有很大一部分是這部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們不是用防空飛彈換他們的飛彈，因為這樣就沒有所謂的不對稱，而是可以綜合我們所有的能力，看怎麼樣用最有性價比的方式還是能夠防空。我這樣的理解……"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是的，委員，您……"],["陳委員冠廷：這樣跟國民說明的話，我認為會得到更多的支持，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}}