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\"end\": 135.43, \"text\": \"那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 118.837, \"end\": 119.217, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 119.217, \"end\": 119.357, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 119.357, \"end\": 119.518, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 119.518, \"end\": 119.718, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 119.718, \"end\": 120.058, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 120.058, \"end\": 120.638, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 120.638, \"end\": 120.879, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 120.879, \"end\": 120.999, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 120.999, \"end\": 121.499, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 121.499, \"end\": 121.819, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 121.819, \"end\": 121.98, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 121.98, \"end\": 122.12, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 122.12, \"end\": 122.34, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 122.34, \"end\": 123.1, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"背\", \"start\": 123.1, \"end\": 123.321, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 123.321, \"end\": 123.981, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"誓\", \"start\": 123.981, \"end\": 124.121, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 124.121, \"end\": 124.281, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 124.281, \"end\": 125.142, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 125.142, \"end\": 125.642, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 125.642, \"end\": 126.023, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 126.023, \"end\": 126.683, \"score\": 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130.286, \"end\": 131.047, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 131.047, \"end\": 131.227, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 131.227, \"end\": 131.647, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 131.647, \"end\": 131.827, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 131.827, \"end\": 132.008, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 132.008, \"end\": 132.728, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 132.728, \"end\": 133.048, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 133.048, \"end\": 133.409, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.409, \"end\": 133.749, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 133.749, \"end\": 134.069, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 134.069, \"end\": 134.369, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 147.42, \"end\": 147.72, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 147.72, \"end\": 148.32, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 148.32, \"end\": 148.52, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 148.52, \"end\": 148.661, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"薪\", \"start\": 148.661, \"end\": 148.881, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 148.881, \"end\": 149.321, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 149.321, \"end\": 149.661, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 149.661, \"end\": 149.781, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 149.781, \"end\": 149.941, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 149.941, \"end\": 150.522, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 150.522, \"end\": 150.662, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 150.662, \"end\": 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\"text\": \"才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 341.596, \"end\": 341.936, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 341.936, \"end\": 342.096, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 342.096, \"end\": 342.196, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 342.196, \"end\": 342.397, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 342.397, \"end\": 342.537, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 342.537, \"end\": 342.717, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 342.717, \"end\": 343.037, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 343.037, \"end\": 343.437, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 343.437, \"end\": 343.657, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 343.657, \"end\": 343.897, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": 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\"候\", \"start\": 359.346, \"end\": 359.526, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 359.526, \"end\": 359.707, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 359.707, \"end\": 359.807, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 359.807, \"end\": 359.967, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 359.967, \"end\": 361.007, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 361.007, \"end\": 361.167, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 361.167, \"end\": 361.267, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 361.267, \"end\": 361.568, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 361.568, \"end\": 361.848, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 361.848, \"end\": 361.988, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 361.988, \"end\": 362.228, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 362.228, \"end\": 362.328, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 366.41, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"壓\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 366.41, \"end\": 366.631, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 366.631, \"end\": 366.811, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 366.811, \"end\": 367.251, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 367.251, \"end\": 367.511, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 367.511, \"end\": 367.651, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 367.651, \"end\": 367.771, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 367.771, \"end\": 368.111, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"輕\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 368.111, \"end\": 368.692, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 368.692, \"end\": 368.892, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 368.892, \"end\": 369.092, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 369.092, \"end\": 369.332, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 369.332, \"end\": 369.452, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 369.452, \"end\": 369.992, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 369.992, \"end\": 370.193, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 370.193, \"end\": 370.353, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 370.353, \"end\": 370.553, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 370.553, \"end\": 370.573, \"score\": 0.617}]}, {\"start\": 370.973, \"end\": 387.364, \"text\": \"所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 370.973, \"end\": 371.073, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 371.073, \"end\": 371.133, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 371.133, \"end\": 371.293, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 371.293, \"end\": 371.413, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 371.413, \"end\": 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\"end\": 385.583, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 385.583, \"end\": 385.903, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 385.903, \"end\": 386.063, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 386.063, \"end\": 386.423, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 386.423, \"end\": 386.583, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 386.583, \"end\": 386.703, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 386.703, \"end\": 387.084, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 387.084, \"end\": 387.224, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 387.224, \"end\": 387.344, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 387.344, \"end\": 387.364, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 389.646, \"end\": 411.305, \"text\": \"教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 389.646, \"end\": 389.806, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 389.806, \"end\": 389.866, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 389.866, \"end\": 390.086, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 390.086, \"end\": 390.186, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 390.186, \"end\": 390.326, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 390.326, \"end\": 390.727, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 390.727, \"end\": 391.687, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 391.687, \"end\": 391.828, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 391.828, \"end\": 392.048, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 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\"text\": \"那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 415.288, \"end\": 415.648, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 415.648, \"end\": 415.828, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 415.828, \"end\": 416.048, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 416.048, \"end\": 416.228, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 416.228, \"end\": 416.888, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 416.888, \"end\": 417.208, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 417.208, \"end\": 417.429, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 417.429, \"end\": 418.109, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 418.109, \"end\": 418.489, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, 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594.042, \"end\": 594.142, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 594.142, \"end\": 594.402, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 594.402, \"end\": 594.522, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 594.522, \"end\": 594.862, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 594.862, \"end\": 594.962, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 594.962, \"end\": 595.122, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 595.122, \"end\": 595.722, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 595.722, \"end\": 595.882, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 595.882, \"end\": 596.002, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 596.002, \"end\": 596.022, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 596.022, \"end\": 596.082, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 596.082, \"end\": 596.102, \"score\": 0.02}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,981 --> 00:00:13,423\n謝謝主席我們有請詮釋部好請懷次長\n\n2\n00:00:21,044 --> 00:00:42,905\n委員早好次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣\n\n3\n00:00:43,826 --> 00:01:01,576\n那左邊我們也可以看到歐規則老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實\n\n4\n00:01:02,577 --> 00:01:26,111\n不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都一直在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說\n\n5\n00:01:26,971 --> 00:01:40,967\n好像的確喔中國比較好喔那尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答啦我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅\n\n6\n00:01:42,068 --> 00:01:57,294\n我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務\n\n7\n00:01:58,837 --> 00:02:15,430\n那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範\n\n8\n00:02:16,571 --> 00:02:31,002\n對因為他如果沒有兼行正職嘛他就不算對不對好那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方就算因為在我們現在教務人員他教育人員並不屬於公務人員的一個服務法可是他同樣是領我們國家的薪水同樣是拿我們納稅人的薪水\n\n9\n00:02:32,003 --> 00:03:01,563\n那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉\n\n10\n00:03:01,903 --> 00:03:02,027\n谢谢大家\n\n11\n00:03:03,018 --> 00:03:32,061\n教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部\n\n12\n00:03:33,792 --> 00:03:58,971\n謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國對我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢\n\n13\n00:04:00,692 --> 00:04:18,806\n我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況\n\n14\n00:04:19,787 --> 00:04:39,653\n那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛韋雲展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是法治\n\n15\n00:04:40,473 --> 00:04:56,054\n國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整\n\n16\n00:04:56,454 --> 00:05:20,957\n好所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了好我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退福經是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好那再下一個問題我快下一個問題就留全序部就可以了\n\n17\n00:05:24,003 --> 00:05:40,575\n這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補\n\n18\n00:05:41,596 --> 00:06:10,573\n才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的\n\n19\n00:06:10,973 --> 00:06:27,364\n所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零\n\n20\n00:06:29,646 --> 00:06:51,305\n教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金\n\n21\n00:06:55,288 --> 00:07:24,475\n那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作\n\n22\n00:07:24,935 --> 00:07:41,548\n都會有一些爭議嘛就增加那個收益的部分所以讓我們基金會比較大那如果這樣的話等於就是停在那個地方而且我們還要再多支出以上請問一下我想確認一下我之前讀到報告是說大概可能在提前三四年就會見底了是嗎這是正確的嗎對就會好那我有一些建議我覺得就是說\n\n23\n00:07:42,389 --> 00:07:54,980\n我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個\n\n24\n00:07:56,881 --> 00:08:11,267\n抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化\n\n25\n00:08:13,308 --> 00:08:42,015\n第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答\n\n26\n00:08:42,295 --> 00:08:58,757\n我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右\n\n27\n00:08:59,978 --> 00:09:16,388\n那我們這個未來還會持續在爭取希望那個行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補那另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI正負百分之五或就算你沒有達到正負百分之五你四年我們一定會檢討\n\n28\n00:09:17,168 --> 00:09:32,855\n所以一定會檢討就對了這兩個機制都同時存在我們事實上已經從實施新制退休股區以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了我簡單最後一句話做個總結\n\n29\n00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:56,102\n就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到領得久領得安心謝謝好謝謝委員指導好謝謝張委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11981\t13423\t謝謝主席 我們有請詮釋部好 請懷次長\n21044\t42905\t委員早好 次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國 兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣\n43826\t61576\t那左邊我們也可以看到歐規則老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實\n62577\t86111\t不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音 小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代 多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都一直在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說\n86971\t100967\t好像的確喔中國比較好喔那尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答啦我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅\n102068\t117294\t我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務\n118837\t135430\t那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範\n136571\t151002\t對 因為他如果沒有兼行正職嘛他就不算對不對好 那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方就算因為在我們現在教務人員他教育人員並不屬於公務人員的一個服務法可是他同樣是領我們國家的薪水同樣是拿我們納稅人的薪水\n152003\t181563\t那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉\n181903\t182027\t谢谢大家\n183018\t212061\t教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部\n213792\t238971\t謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國對我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢\n240692\t258806\t我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況\n259787\t279653\t那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛韋雲展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是法治\n280473\t296054\t國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整\n296454\t320957\t好 所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了好我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退福經是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好 那再下一個問題我快 下一個問題就留全序部就可以了\n324003\t340575\t這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補\n341596\t370573\t才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的\n370973\t387364\t所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零\n389646\t411305\t教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金\n415288\t444475\t那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作\n444935\t461548\t都會有一些爭議嘛就增加那個收益的部分所以讓我們基金會比較大那如果這樣的話等於就是停在那個地方而且我們還要再多支出以上請問一下我想確認一下我之前讀到報告是說大概可能在提前三四年就會見底了是嗎這是正確的嗎對就會好那我有一些建議我覺得就是說\n462389\t474980\t我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個\n476881\t491267\t抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化\n493308\t522015\t第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募 留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答\n522295\t538757\t我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右\n539978\t556388\t那我們這個未來還會持續在爭取希望那個行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補那另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI正負百分之五或就算你沒有達到正負百分之五你四年我們一定會檢討\n557168\t572855\t所以一定會檢討就對了這兩個機制都同時存在我們事實上已經從實施新制退休股區以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了我簡單最後一句話做個總結\n575516\t596102\t就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到 領得久 領得安心 謝謝好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝張委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請詮釋部好 請懷次長\n委員早好 次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國 兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣\n那左邊我們也可以看到歐規則老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實\n不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音 小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代 多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都一直在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說\n好像的確喔中國比較好喔那尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答啦我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅\n我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務\n那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範\n對 因為他如果沒有兼行正職嘛他就不算對不對好 那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方就算因為在我們現在教務人員他教育人員並不屬於公務人員的一個服務法可是他同樣是領我們國家的薪水同樣是拿我們納稅人的薪水\n那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉\n谢谢大家\n教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部\n謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國對我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢\n我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況\n那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛韋雲展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是法治\n國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整\n好 所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了好我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退福經是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好 那再下一個問題我快 下一個問題就留全序部就可以了\n這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補\n才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的\n所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零\n教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金\n那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作\n都會有一些爭議嘛就增加那個收益的部分所以讓我們基金會比較大那如果這樣的話等於就是停在那個地方而且我們還要再多支出以上請問一下我想確認一下我之前讀到報告是說大概可能在提前三四年就會見底了是嗎這是正確的嗎對就會好那我有一些建議我覺得就是說\n我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個\n抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化\n第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募 留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答\n我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右\n那我們這個未來還會持續在爭取希望那個行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補那另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI正負百分之五或就算你沒有達到正負百分之五你四年我們一定會檢討\n所以一定會檢討就對了這兩個機制都同時存在我們事實上已經從實施新制退休股區以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了我簡單最後一句話做個總結\n就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到 領得久 領得安心 謝謝好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝張委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.981 --> 00:13.423\n謝謝主席我們有請詮釋部好請懷次長\n\n00:21.044 --> 00:42.905\n委員早好次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣\n\n00:43.826 --> 01:01.576\n那左邊我們也可以看到歐規則老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實\n\n01:02.577 --> 01:26.111\n不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都一直在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說\n\n01:26.971 --> 01:40.967\n好像的確喔中國比較好喔那尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答啦我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅\n\n01:42.068 --> 01:57.294\n我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務\n\n01:58.837 --> 02:15.430\n那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範\n\n02:16.571 --> 02:31.002\n對因為他如果沒有兼行正職嘛他就不算對不對好那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方就算因為在我們現在教務人員他教育人員並不屬於公務人員的一個服務法可是他同樣是領我們國家的薪水同樣是拿我們納稅人的薪水\n\n02:32.003 --> 03:01.563\n那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉\n\n03:01.903 --> 03:02.027\n谢谢大家\n\n03:03.018 --> 03:32.061\n教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部\n\n03:33.792 --> 03:58.971\n謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國對我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢\n\n04:00.692 --> 04:18.806\n我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況\n\n04:19.787 --> 04:39.653\n那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛韋雲展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是法治\n\n04:40.473 --> 04:56.054\n國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整\n\n04:56.454 --> 05:20.957\n好所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了好我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退福經是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好那再下一個問題我快下一個問題就留全序部就可以了\n\n05:24.003 --> 05:40.575\n這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補\n\n05:41.596 --> 06:10.573\n才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的\n\n06:10.973 --> 06:27.364\n所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零\n\n06:29.646 --> 06:51.305\n教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金\n\n06:55.288 --> 07:24.475\n那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作\n\n07:24.935 --> 07:41.548\n都會有一些爭議嘛就增加那個收益的部分所以讓我們基金會比較大那如果這樣的話等於就是停在那個地方而且我們還要再多支出以上請問一下我想確認一下我之前讀到報告是說大概可能在提前三四年就會見底了是嗎這是正確的嗎對就會好那我有一些建議我覺得就是說\n\n07:42.389 --> 07:54.980\n我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個\n\n07:56.881 --> 08:11.267\n抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化\n\n08:13.308 --> 08:42.015\n第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答\n\n08:42.295 --> 08:58.757\n我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右\n\n08:59.978 --> 09:16.388\n那我們這個未來還會持續在爭取希望那個行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補那另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI正負百分之五或就算你沒有達到正負百分之五你四年我們一定會檢討\n\n09:17.168 --> 09:32.855\n所以一定會檢討就對了這兩個機制都同時存在我們事實上已經從實施新制退休股區以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了我簡單最後一句話做個總結\n\n09:35.516 --> 09:56.102\n就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到領得久領得安心謝謝好謝謝委員指導好謝謝張委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.981,"end":13.423,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請詮釋部好 請懷次長"},{"start":21.044,"end":42.905,"text":"委員早好 次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國 兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣"},{"start":43.826,"end":61.576,"text":"那左邊我們也可以看到歐規則老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實"},{"start":62.577,"end":86.111,"text":"不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音 小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代 多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都一直在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說"},{"start":86.971,"end":100.967,"text":"好像的確喔中國比較好喔那尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答啦我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅"},{"start":102.068,"end":117.294,"text":"我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務"},{"start":118.837,"end":135.43,"text":"那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範"},{"start":136.571,"end":151.002,"text":"對 因為他如果沒有兼行正職嘛他就不算對不對好 那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方就算因為在我們現在教務人員他教育人員並不屬於公務人員的一個服務法可是他同樣是領我們國家的薪水同樣是拿我們納稅人的薪水"},{"start":152.003,"end":181.563,"text":"那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉"},{"start":181.903,"end":182.027,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":183.018,"end":212.061,"text":"教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部"},{"start":213.792,"end":238.971,"text":"謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國對我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢"},{"start":240.692,"end":258.806,"text":"我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況"},{"start":259.787,"end":279.653,"text":"那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛韋雲展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是法治"},{"start":280.473,"end":296.054,"text":"國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整"},{"start":296.454,"end":320.957,"text":"好 所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了好我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退福經是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好 那再下一個問題我快 下一個問題就留全序部就可以了"},{"start":324.003,"end":340.575,"text":"這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補"},{"start":341.596,"end":370.573,"text":"才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的"},{"start":370.973,"end":387.364,"text":"所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零"},{"start":389.646,"end":411.305,"text":"教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金"},{"start":415.288,"end":444.475,"text":"那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作"},{"start":444.935,"end":461.548,"text":"都會有一些爭議嘛就增加那個收益的部分所以讓我們基金會比較大那如果這樣的話等於就是停在那個地方而且我們還要再多支出以上請問一下我想確認一下我之前讀到報告是說大概可能在提前三四年就會見底了是嗎這是正確的嗎對就會好那我有一些建議我覺得就是說"},{"start":462.389,"end":474.98,"text":"我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個"},{"start":476.881,"end":491.267,"text":"抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化"},{"start":493.308,"end":522.015,"text":"第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募 留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答"},{"start":522.295,"end":538.757,"text":"我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右"},{"start":539.978,"end":556.388,"text":"那我們這個未來還會持續在爭取希望那個行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補那另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI正負百分之五或就算你沒有達到正負百分之五你四年我們一定會檢討"},{"start":557.168,"end":572.855,"text":"所以一定會檢討就對了這兩個機制都同時存在我們事實上已經從實施新制退休股區以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了我簡單最後一句話做個總結"},{"start":575.516,"end":596.102,"text":"就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到 領得久 領得安心 謝謝好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝張委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時9分）謝謝主席，有請銓敘部。"],["主席：好，請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["張委員雅琳：次長早安。我們最近可以看到公教背景身分的一些人員，甚至是教育人員在公開場合發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的言論，特別就是我舉的兩個例子，一個是會稽國小的校長在抖音上面直接講說「我愛你中國、兩岸一家親」，還把自己的IP寫成中國臺灣。左邊我們可以看到區桂芝老師是在中國央視上面接受採訪的時候說中國人是我們的同胞，甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力。","我想，有一件事情非常嚴重的是，因為現在的孩子其實不是只有看課本，他們的訊息其實非常多元，現在有非常多的人都在看抖音、小紅書，裡面滿滿都是一些中國現在有多現代、多強大、臺灣很落後的一些資訊。這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治，可是這些潛台詞都已經在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的認同，讓孩子開始覺得說好像的確中國比較好，尤其是校長跟老師都在附和的時候，不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答，我覺得這對國家來說，更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊非常大的威脅。","我想要再次重申，我們尊重言論自由，但也尊重學術自由，但自由的底線不能危害國家安全，所以根據我們的公務人員服務誓詞，有提到要恪遵政府法令、忠心努力、切實執行職務。我想問一下，剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，剛剛您說的那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["懷次長敍：他不適用公務員服務事實跟公務員服務法的規範。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為如果他沒有兼行政職，他就不算，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：是、對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方，因為在現在教育人員並不屬於公務人員服務法，可是他同樣是領國家的薪水，同樣是拿納稅人的薪水，在這個基準之下，也應該不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具，所以從現在的兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三來看，對於曾任這些國防、外交、大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長，如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止給付退撫金，可是現在相關法令似乎沒有去約束所謂的教育人員，所以我也想要請教一下教育部和銓敘部。"],["主席：好，請。"],["張委員雅琳：是不是應當來討論？因為這個問題不是一個、兩個，已經非常多的案例出現，如果當教育人員有涉及危害國家安全、分裂國家的言語，特別是調查屬實的時候，我們是不是應該在教育人員退撫條例中設置忠誠條款，對於退撫金會有所減額或取消？我想請教一下教育部和銓敘部的想法。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員，依照目前教育基本法的規定，教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場，而且老師還要傳授有關法治、愛國等等相關規定。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我現在的問題就是如果他違背了這個……"],["朱次長俊彰：違背的話，如果有適當的……是不是需要在退撫條例有一些忠誠條款，我想這部分應該要有一個一致的作法，我們會跟銓敘部、人總……"],["張委員雅琳：那態度上面呢？"],["朱次長俊彰：我們還是強調，教育要秉持中立的立場，而且要符合國家的法令。"],["張委員雅琳：我想確認一下，所以您的意思是，你們會跟銓敘部討論，未來往這個方向去做一些調整嗎？還是請銓敘部？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告一下，因為剛剛像這些都是屬於比較特例的狀況，如果是涉及到兩岸的部分，因為目前兩岸人民關係條例就在剛剛委員您所展示的上面已經有。另外在國家安全法上面也有一個條款專門在處理這個區塊，我們會比較建議，就法制來講要單純化的話，應該是要在國家安全法上面來處理，那個可能是比較法制……"],["張委員雅琳：從國家安全法上去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎？"],["懷次長敍：就是剛剛您提到的，因為國家安全法上對於那些行為，包括停止退休金等等，它是一個規範在那邊，在法制上會比較完整。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了？"],["懷次長敍：我們會建議如果要，應該從那個方向。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關規範，彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方，因為我認為演算法已經跨越國界了，可是我們不能讓國家無法可管，退撫金是對於國家忠誠者的照顧，不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人。","好，再下一個問題請銓敘部就可以了，教育部請回，謝謝。這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於要停止下降公教人員退撫金的所得替代率，但是我們今天回頭來看，在114年6月最新的退撫基金精算報告已經明確指出，現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補才能夠維持正常的運作，又例如教育部115年度預算書顯示現在要針對退撫基金撥補92億。我們知道在2017年制定公立學校教職員退撫條例的時候，其實就是要減緩退撫基金的財務壓力，以及要讓年輕人也有機會可以拿得到，所以才會透過每十年下降所得替代率的方式，讓退撫基金可以支持教育人員的退休給付作業。我想請問一下，在現在的狀況之下，如果停止下降所得替代率，對於退撫基金的確實影響是什麼？哪一年會提早歸零？"],["懷次長敍：那就會變成教育人員的部分會到民國129年，因為原來我們的設計是希望到134年，這樣會變成提前到129年。另外一個部分，如果停止調降所得替代率的話，本來調降下來的錢不是政府會再拿回去，而是會進入到基金，這個部分預期大概會減少兩千七百多億進入到基金，再加上因為在112年實行新的儲金制度的缺口，加起來就會讓基金可運用的錢減少。關於這個部分，我也跟委員報告，年改前退撫基金大概只有五千六百多億，截至目前為止，已經到了一兆一千多億左右，這就是年改的結果，政府一方面挹注，把節約的錢進入到基金，再包括基金的操作都會有一些增益，也就是增加收益的部分，所以讓我們的基金會變得比較大。如果這樣的話，等於就是停在那個地方，而且我們還要再多支出，以上簡單報告。"],["張委員雅琳：我想確認一下，我之前讀到的報告是說大概可能再提前三、四年就會見底了，是嗎？這是正確的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：對，就會見底"],["張委員雅琳：那我有一些建議，我覺得也要考量一件事情，就是年金改革上路之後，這幾年物價的確是波動蠻大的，導致在退休給付制度上面應該要去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定。學者的意見有三個，關於他們的建議，第一個是維持改革的核心，引入彈性的機制，研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的給付調整，以更彈性的方式去回應經濟環境的變化。第二個是確立撥補的法律約束力，強制行政部門依精算結果執行十年期計畫，把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上。第三個是啟動對新制的長期監測，持續關注對於人員招募、留任及退休適足性的影響。我想問一下，針對這三點有沒有相關的因應對策，可不可以簡短回答？"],["懷次長敍：我簡單報告一下，在112年銓敘部有召集相關機關，包括教育部在內，我們希望用十年的方式來撥補，大概每年能夠撥補317億。不過也跟您報告，這部分到目前為止，包括115年的預算，加起來大概520億左右，未來我們還會持續爭取，希望行政院跟主計總處能夠以十年的方式來給我們撥補。另外一個部分，依照現行的制度設計，教育人員的部分就已經有CPI正負5%的考量，就算沒有達到正負百分之五，每四年一定會檢討，我們……"],["張委員雅琳：所以一定會檢討就對了？"],["懷次長敍：對，這兩個機制都同時存在。事實上，從實施退休撫卹新制以後，退休人員的部分大概已經調整6%左右，以上報告。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，所以其實是有反映現在的經濟狀態就對了。我簡單最後一句話做個總結，因為這對於整體財政其實是有個長期負擔的結構性問題，我希望銓敘部可以做出更明確的數據預估，以及明確說明未來可能會產生的影響，讓社會大眾都能夠清楚地了解，因為我們推動年金改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到、領得久、領得安心，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}}