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00:00:14,264\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長王委員好\n\n2\n00:00:19,990 --> 00:00:49,510\n部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑清潔就你掌握的\n\n3\n00:00:50,190 --> 00:01:19,060\n從環境部知道的據我所知道的是不需要他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有我知道是沒有好來那我們就叫經濟部來次長好委員好次長你這個經濟部有發文嘛說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢網路上面現在有一個被截圖的\n\n4\n00:01:19,420 --> 00:01:46,270\n就是說這一個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹效果比粉紅豹好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文\n\n5\n00:01:48,898 --> 00:02:17,567\n報告委員這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息我必須要去做領取我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息那就去開罰他好不好不可以任意發這樣的文\n\n6\n00:02:18,607 --> 00:02:23,429\n我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息好那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為這一則文這個看起來這一位人士他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的\n\n7\n00:02:35,655 --> 00:03:01,168\n那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑喔他們可不可以這樣子販售\n\n8\n00:03:02,228 --> 00:03:22,524\n如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品\n\n9\n00:03:24,802 --> 00:03:50,581\n這個我們來了解啦所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢\n\n10\n00:03:51,261 --> 00:04:15,781\n路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以\n\n11\n00:04:16,175 --> 00:04:32,917\n我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查核水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止\n\n12\n00:04:34,537 --> 00:04:54,801\n路上行的部分我確實在了解一下在跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長來\n\n13\n00:05:00,407 --> 00:05:26,487\n你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗它在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的那但是如果它是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們是允許它用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止它用大規模\n\n14\n00:05:26,707 --> 00:05:43,687\n你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電\n\n15\n00:05:45,066 --> 00:06:06,883\n其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解\n\n16\n00:06:08,421 --> 00:06:35,554\n我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他也沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地\n\n17\n00:06:36,674 --> 00:07:05,440\n這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個\n\n18\n00:07:06,861 --> 00:07:15,391\n就是再用額外的洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分\n\n19\n00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:39,757\n這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止\n\n20\n00:07:40,758 --> 00:08:08,506\n還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部也要訂嗎\n\n21\n00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:33,397\n我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用\n\n22\n00:08:35,194 --> 00:08:54,640\n水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥水還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的\n\n23\n00:08:55,069 --> 00:09:22,635\n所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的\n\n24\n00:09:23,724 --> 00:09:47,351\n這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以\n\n25\n00:09:48,231 --> 00:10:10,274\n不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來\n\n26\n00:10:11,074 --> 00:10:26,892\n我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的\n\n27\n00:10:29,127 --> 00:10:50,500\n好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請回問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分再加一線呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那加一線環保局長說電子圍理的效果有限\n\n28\n00:10:51,280 --> 00:11:15,191\n業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍理並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍理而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億\n\n29\n00:11:20,213 --> 00:11:32,726\n來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子圍籬效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善\n\n30\n00:11:34,044 --> 00:12:00,206\n報告委員這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年\n\n31\n00:12:01,827 --> 00:12:24,297\n對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎\n\n32\n00:12:25,557 --> 00:12:42,069\n這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決\n\n33\n00:12:44,888 --> 00:13:03,799\n那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會立即採取例行的措施對啊那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決\n\n34\n00:13:08,174 --> 00:13:29,842\n這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有\n\n35\n00:13:30,982 --> 00:13:48,695\n這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6875\t14264\t謝謝主席 我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長王委員好\n19990\t49510\t部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑清潔就你掌握的\n50190\t79060\t從環境部知道的據我所知道的是不需要 他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚 因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有我知道是沒有好來 那我們就叫經濟部 來 次長好 委員好次長 你這個經濟部有發文嘛說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢 網路上面現在有一個被截圖的\n79420\t106270\t就是說這一個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹效果比粉紅豹好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文\n108898\t137567\t報告委員 這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息我必須要去做領取我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息 那就去開罰他好不好 不可以任意發這樣的文\n138607\t143429\t我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息好 那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為這一則文這個看起來這一位人士他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的\n155655\t181168\t那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑喔他們可不可以這樣子販售\n182228\t202524\t如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品\n204802\t230581\t這個我們來了解啦所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對 你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢\n231261\t255781\t路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以\n256175\t272917\t我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查核水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止\n274537\t294801\t路上行的部分我確實在了解一下在跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長來\n300407\t326487\t你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗它在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的那但是如果它是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們是允許它用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止它用大規模\n326707\t343687\t你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電\n345066\t366883\t其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解\n368421\t395554\t我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他也沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地\n396674\t425440\t這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個\n426861\t435391\t就是再用額外的洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分\n440300\t459757\t這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止\n460758\t488506\t還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部也要訂嗎\n490840\t513397\t我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是 那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用\n515194\t534640\t水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥水還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的\n535069\t562635\t所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的\n563724\t587351\t這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以\n588231\t610274\t不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來\n611074\t626892\t我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的\n629127\t650500\t好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請回問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分再加一線呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那加一線環保局長說電子圍理的效果有限\n651280\t675191\t業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍理並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍理而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億\n680213\t692726\t來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子圍籬效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善\n694044\t720206\t報告委員 這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年\n721827\t744297\t對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎\n745557\t762069\t這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決\n764888\t783799\t那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會立即採取例行的措施對啊那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決\n788174\t809842\t這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有\n810982\t828695\t這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長王委員好\n部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑清潔就你掌握的\n從環境部知道的據我所知道的是不需要 他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚 因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有我知道是沒有好來 那我們就叫經濟部 來 次長好 委員好次長 你這個經濟部有發文嘛說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢 網路上面現在有一個被截圖的\n就是說這一個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹效果比粉紅豹好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文\n報告委員 這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息我必須要去做領取我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息 那就去開罰他好不好 不可以任意發這樣的文\n我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息好 那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為這一則文這個看起來這一位人士他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的\n那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑喔他們可不可以這樣子販售\n如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品\n這個我們來了解啦所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對 你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢\n路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以\n我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查核水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止\n路上行的部分我確實在了解一下在跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長來\n你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗它在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的那但是如果它是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們是允許它用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止它用大規模\n你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電\n其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解\n我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他也沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地\n這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個\n就是再用額外的洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分\n這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止\n還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部也要訂嗎\n我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是 那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用\n水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥水還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的\n所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的\n這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以\n不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來\n我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的\n好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請回問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分再加一線呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那加一線環保局長說電子圍理的效果有限\n業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍理並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍理而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億\n來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子圍籬效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善\n報告委員 這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年\n對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎\n這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決\n那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會立即採取例行的措施對啊那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決\n這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有\n這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.875 --> 00:14.264\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長王委員好\n\n00:19.990 --> 00:49.510\n部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑清潔就你掌握的\n\n00:50.190 --> 01:19.060\n從環境部知道的據我所知道的是不需要他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有我知道是沒有好來那我們就叫經濟部來次長好委員好次長你這個經濟部有發文嘛說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢網路上面現在有一個被截圖的\n\n01:19.420 --> 01:46.270\n就是說這一個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹效果比粉紅豹好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文\n\n01:48.898 --> 02:17.567\n報告委員這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息我必須要去做領取我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息那就去開罰他好不好不可以任意發這樣的文\n\n02:18.607 --> 02:23.429\n我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息好那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為這一則文這個看起來這一位人士他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的\n\n02:35.655 --> 03:01.168\n那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑喔他們可不可以這樣子販售\n\n03:02.228 --> 03:22.524\n如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品\n\n03:24.802 --> 03:50.581\n這個我們來了解啦所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢\n\n03:51.261 --> 04:15.781\n路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以\n\n04:16.175 --> 04:32.917\n我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查核水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止\n\n04:34.537 --> 04:54.801\n路上行的部分我確實在了解一下在跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長來\n\n05:00.407 --> 05:26.487\n你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗它在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的那但是如果它是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們是允許它用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止它用大規模\n\n05:26.707 --> 05:43.687\n你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電\n\n05:45.066 --> 06:06.883\n其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解\n\n06:08.421 --> 06:35.554\n我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他也沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地\n\n06:36.674 --> 07:05.440\n這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個\n\n07:06.861 --> 07:15.391\n就是再用額外的洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分\n\n07:20.300 --> 07:39.757\n這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止\n\n07:40.758 --> 08:08.506\n還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部也要訂嗎\n\n08:10.840 --> 08:33.397\n我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用\n\n08:35.194 --> 08:54.640\n水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥水還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的\n\n08:55.069 --> 09:22.635\n所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的\n\n09:23.724 --> 09:47.351\n這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以\n\n09:48.231 --> 10:10.274\n不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來\n\n10:11.074 --> 10:26.892\n我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的\n\n10:29.127 --> 10:50.500\n好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請回問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分再加一線呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那加一線環保局長說電子圍理的效果有限\n\n10:51.280 --> 11:15.191\n業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍理並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍理而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億\n\n11:20.213 --> 11:32.726\n來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子圍籬效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善\n\n11:34.044 --> 12:00.206\n報告委員這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年\n\n12:01.827 --> 12:24.297\n對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎\n\n12:25.557 --> 12:42.069\n這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決\n\n12:44.888 --> 13:03.799\n那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會立即採取例行的措施對啊那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決\n\n13:08.174 --> 13:29.842\n這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有\n\n13:30.982 --> 13:48.695\n這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.875,"end":14.264,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長王委員好"},{"start":19.99,"end":49.51,"text":"部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑清潔就你掌握的"},{"start":50.19,"end":79.06,"text":"從環境部知道的據我所知道的是不需要 他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚 因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有我知道是沒有好來 那我們就叫經濟部 來 次長好 委員好次長 你這個經濟部有發文嘛說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢 網路上面現在有一個被截圖的"},{"start":79.42,"end":106.27,"text":"就是說這一個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹效果比粉紅豹好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文"},{"start":108.898,"end":137.567,"text":"報告委員 這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息我必須要去做領取我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息 那就去開罰他好不好 不可以任意發這樣的文"},{"start":138.607,"end":143.429,"text":"我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息好 那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為這一則文這個看起來這一位人士他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的"},{"start":155.655,"end":181.168,"text":"那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑喔他們可不可以這樣子販售"},{"start":182.228,"end":202.524,"text":"如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品"},{"start":204.802,"end":230.581,"text":"這個我們來了解啦所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對 你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢"},{"start":231.261,"end":255.781,"text":"路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以"},{"start":256.175,"end":272.917,"text":"我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查核水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止"},{"start":274.537,"end":294.801,"text":"路上行的部分我確實在了解一下在跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長來"},{"start":300.407,"end":326.487,"text":"你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗它在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的那但是如果它是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們是允許它用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止它用大規模"},{"start":326.707,"end":343.687,"text":"你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電"},{"start":345.066,"end":366.883,"text":"其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解"},{"start":368.421,"end":395.554,"text":"我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他也沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地"},{"start":396.674,"end":425.44,"text":"這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個"},{"start":426.861,"end":435.391,"text":"就是再用額外的洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分"},{"start":440.3,"end":459.757,"text":"這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止"},{"start":460.758,"end":488.506,"text":"還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部也要訂嗎"},{"start":490.84,"end":513.397,"text":"我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是 那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用"},{"start":515.194,"end":534.64,"text":"水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥水還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的"},{"start":535.069,"end":562.635,"text":"所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的"},{"start":563.724,"end":587.351,"text":"這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以"},{"start":588.231,"end":610.274,"text":"不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來"},{"start":611.074,"end":626.892,"text":"我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的"},{"start":629.127,"end":650.5,"text":"好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請回問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分再加一線呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那加一線環保局長說電子圍理的效果有限"},{"start":651.28,"end":675.191,"text":"業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍理並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍理而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億"},{"start":680.213,"end":692.726,"text":"來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子圍籬效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善"},{"start":694.044,"end":720.206,"text":"報告委員 這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年"},{"start":721.827,"end":744.297,"text":"對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎"},{"start":745.557,"end":762.069,"text":"這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決"},{"start":764.888,"end":783.799,"text":"那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會立即採取例行的措施對啊那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決"},{"start":788.174,"end":809.842,"text":"這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有"},{"start":810.982,"end":828.695,"text":"這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時16分）謝謝主席，是不是有請環境部部長、經濟部次長及農業部次長？"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我請教你，現在光電的議題有多面向的議題，包括應該要環評的議題、之前丹娜絲風災之後光電板整個清運管理的問題，還有最近大家一直在爭論光電板到底要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題。部長，我先請教你，就你掌握的、環境部知道的，到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑？"],["彭部長啓明：據我所知道的是不需要，它用清水沖洗就可以。"],["王委員育敏：那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我不清楚，因為我所知道的是沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你知道的是沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道的是沒有。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們再就教經濟部次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：次長，經濟部有發文，說清洗光電板真的不需要用清潔劑；但是網路上面現在有一個截圖，看起來這也是一個業界在清洗的業者，他曾經講過：今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹，效果比粉紅豹好很多，但需要更多的測試才能確定，噴藥桿還有進步的空間。請問次長，你有沒有掌握有這一篇發文？"],["賴次長建信：報告委員，這個我第一次看到，跟委員說明，網路上的訊息非常多，但是網路上也有一些訊息是假的，我們必須要去做釐清。"],["王委員育敏：好，次長，你今天第一次看到，我要求經濟部去查明，因為你們發文說不需要清潔劑，我今天就提供這一則……"],["賴次長建信：現在業界裡面沒有用這個，我們的契約……我們的要求裡面也要求不需要……"],["王委員育敏：對，你們去查明……"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["王委員育敏：如果這個是假消息，那就去開罰他，好不好？不可以任意發這樣的文。"],["賴次長建信：我們非常反對錯假的訊息來影響社會。"],["王委員育敏：好，我就正式提供這一則，你好好去確認清楚，因為看起來這位人士po的相關文章都是跟清洗有關，他曾經po出這個文，已經被截圖出來了，就這個部分，我希望經濟部好好去查。","接下來我們看一下，如果光電板完全不需要清洗劑來清洗，請問，市面上現在在網路上面可以找到標榜太陽能板的洗劑可不可以販售？如果太陽能板是不需要清洗劑的，可不可以販售標榜是太陽能板的洗劑？這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰？如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話，為什麼市面上會有這樣的產品？"],["賴次長建信：這個我們來了解，所有的產品到我們臺灣的社會上，必須要符合相關產品的規範。就剛剛委員所說的，我再次跟委員強調，水面型的太陽能板事實上是鋪在水面上，它的清洗是直接汲取當地的水，用清水來清洗。"],["王委員育敏：對，你講的是水面型的，對不對？那我問你陸上型的呢？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，不管是水面型或是陸上型，太陽能板上可能會有灰塵，也許會有一些大自然上的髒污物，這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗就可以達到它的效果了。"],["王委員育敏：次長，我問你，如果有業者用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板，這有沒有違法？可不可以？"],["賴次長建信：目前所發的相關許可書裡面，我們是禁止他使用的，我們會加強查核。"],["王委員育敏：水面型跟陸上型都完全禁止？"],["賴次長建信：水面型的部分我們有特別的規範。"],["王委員育敏：那陸上型的有沒有禁止？"],["賴次長建信：陸上型的部分，讓我確實再了解一下後再跟委員說明。"],["王委員育敏：你現在還不知道？光電板我們已經運作多久了！現在陸上型光電板清洗時到底可不可以使用清潔劑，次長，你不知道？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們希望他設置的地方用的清洗方式不要影響……"],["王委員育敏：署長要回答，好，請教署長，經濟部或者是能源署現在有沒有禁止陸上型光電板用清潔劑來清洗？"],["李署長君禮：他在做大規模清潔的時候，我們是絕對禁止的，但如果只是少數的地方，比如說那個地方有鳥屎，我們是允許他用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除，但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑來清洗的，我們禁止他大規模來做清洗。"],["王委員育敏：你們在相關簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎？"],["李署長君禮：這是我們日常管理裡面要做的，並不在契約裡面。"],["王委員育敏：如果他有違法，那有罰則嗎？"],["李署長君禮：違反的話，正常程序下我們會先請他改善，如果沒有改善的話，我們最重可以停止他購電。"],["王委員育敏：其實現在到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情，你們是沒有一個明確規範的。"],["李署長君禮：原則是禁止的，但如果他有特殊的原因……"],["王委員育敏：那你知道市面上這些東西到底是賣到哪裡去？他還標榜是太陽能板洗劑。"],["李署長君禮：我們來了解那個產品到底是賣到哪裡去。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們好好的了解。","接下來我要問農業部，剛剛經濟部說原則上是禁止用清潔劑來清洗太陽能光電板，但是之前媒體實地訪查的時候，南部的農民就很擔心，因為他們看到有人在洗光電板，那個污水就直接流下來，也沒有做任何的隔離措施，然後那就可能會污染到他的農地。這個部分農業部有掌握嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：跟委員報告，事實上，水面型也好，或者是漁電共生型的案場也好，我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗，至於委員所說的，在其他案場有這個現況，我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息，對此，我們會來了解，基本上，一般的清洗只需要用清水清洗就可以了，應該不需要再用額外的洗劑來做加強。"],["王委員育敏：你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：目前我並沒有聽到剛才委員所說的這個部分。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分我真的認為我們主管機關要好好了解實際運作狀況，如果你們都說不需要也不可能，但市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑，那請問他是賣到哪裡去？你們有沒有掌握那個流量？這件事情是完全禁止？還是你允許有一部分是可以使用的？還是水面型的完全禁止，陸地型的部分開放使用？我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範，當你們這麼不明確的時候，你認為這些光電板業者應該要遵循的是哪一套？他們也不清楚啊！","我再問一下環境部部長，你在回答媒體的時候說，農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準，上午的時候你有這樣講。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：農業部也要訂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我記得是我們在協商這個問題的時候，因為陳部長有說，在清洗的過程當中，他會把這個變成檢查的項目之一。"],["王委員育敏：是，如果按照剛剛講的，未來你要訂定的規範中，到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑，還是你是會開放清潔劑的使用？你們現在的方向到底是什麼？"],["李署長君禮：水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑。"],["王委員育敏：陸地型的呢？"],["李署長君禮：陸地型的，通常像漁電共生這種的也不會。但是剛才有講，如果是有一些特殊的原因，比如說有鳥屎還是什麼東西卡在上面，特別需要的話才會讓他用，此時這樣子做是可以被同意的，但是原則上是禁止的。"],["王委員育敏：所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用？"],["李署長君禮：或是有其他的污染，在一定的條件下，他就確實沒有辦法清。另外就他設置的地點，比如說它是屋頂型的，在這一方面我們是覺得如果確實有什麼污染，不用洗劑沒有辦法清除的話，那我們是可以接受的；其他所謂水面型的，或是漁電共生的，或是在一般土地上的，我們都是禁止的。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分，我覺得現在主管機關白紙黑字、明確化的部分真的是不夠明確，所以我希望你們可以儘快制定出一個光電板清洗管制作業標準，從經濟部到農業部、到環境部，你們訂出來的標準是一致的，不要能源署說可以，但問農業部後卻說不可以；問環境部後又說可以，不能這樣子，不能三個不同的部會大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的，我要求這個部分應該要制定，所以誰要來制定？是農業部還是經濟部，還是環境部？"],["李署長君禮：抱歉，您講的是？"],["王委員育敏：光電板清洗管制標準。"],["李署長君禮：這個可以由我們來訂，沒有問題。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部要來訂嘛！"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["王委員育敏：大概多久可以訂出來？"],["李署長君禮：大概要兩個月的時間，我們會跟相關公會商量，事實上現在就是禁止的，但是未來我們會再檢討是不是要有更嚴格的管理方法。另外，現在所謂水面型的，事實上，除了禁止以外，我們是有進行水質監測的。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分我要求儘快訂出來。你們其他人請回，我問一下環境部部長，今天還有一個重要的議題，就是非法傾倒廢棄物的部分，在嘉義縣也出現13起這樣的情況，嘉義縣環保局長說，電子圍籬的效果有限，業者如果用一個大的黑布、黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來，則現行的電子圍籬並沒有辦法去做監測，去知道它上面裝載的到底是什麼，在這樣的情況底下，現在環管署編那麼多的金額，且我們一直在推動智慧圍籬，之前你們有一個會議還說要從115年到118年，花23億做這樣一個遠端智慧來解決這樣一個問題。基層的嘉義縣環保局長說，這樣的電子圍籬效果有限，可是你未來卻還要再花大錢，請問你到底要怎麼去做改善？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實原來的電子圍籬就像車牌有eTag，未來我們會全方面的，例如我們會把所有的監視器，包含所有警政系統等等的，把它匯整在一起，等於是從115年開始，我們爭取到這個預算來做這個事情，因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的，漏洞還滿多的，所以才會造成我們看到的一些問題。"],["王委員育敏：那你到什麼時候才會開始改善？115年？"],["彭部長啓明：115年開始我們有這個計畫，其實處理廢棄物不是只有一件事情，這個是所謂的抓小偷，我們要從整個量能去化，然後整個抓小偷，甚至是法律的修正。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善；第二個，現在光地方通報到你們的平臺，還有你們正式公告的，其實是有時差的，你知道嗎？這部分有一個月的時差，你們自己的報告裡面都說，那些車牌號碼你們上傳到環管署的平臺，然後你們每一個月再去公告有異常的，也就是慢了一拍，這個部分你要怎麼解決？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：報告委員，如果我們有發生立即的危險或是現行犯的話，我們就會立即採取檢警環的稽查管制措施；當我們例行性稽查發現有污染的時候，也會轉給我們相關管理單位去做上游的稽查，所以對於馬上會發生危害的，我們會採取立即性的措施。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！這個報告裡面講的時間差問題，你要怎麼解決？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：就是我們每次勾稽的時候，若發現有些異常，我就會請他們去看，有些是系統異常，有些是電子設備的異常，但我們就會去查，但是如果實際有違法的時候，我們一定會馬上處理。"],["王委員育敏：好，現在大家對於有人非法傾倒廢棄物一事，從高雄開始，現在看到嘉義縣其實也有，很多縣市應該也都有，針對這個部分，我希望部長、環境部要負起稽核的責任，因為他污染的就是我們的環境，未來你們還要編這麼多的預算，現行所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員發言。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}}