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{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 847.169, \"end\": 847.789, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 847.789, \"end\": 847.949, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 847.949, \"end\": 848.129, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 848.129, \"end\": 848.549, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 848.549, \"end\": 848.69, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 848.69, \"end\": 848.71, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"暫\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 848.71, \"end\": 848.73, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 849.79, \"end\": 866.624, \"text\": \"所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 849.79, \"end\": 849.93, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 849.93, \"end\": 850.331, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 850.331, \"end\": 850.451, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"一\", 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\"文\", \"start\": 1146.0, \"end\": 1146.12, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1146.12, \"end\": 1146.261, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1146.261, \"end\": 1146.621, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1146.621, \"end\": 1147.541, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1147.541, \"end\": 1147.681, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1147.681, \"end\": 1148.242, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1148.242, \"end\": 1148.262, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,431 --> 00:00:12,188\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,837 --> 00:00:39,070\n部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重\n\n3\n00:00:39,790 --> 00:00:54,006\n那根據世界銀行的這個出版他出版那個天然災害的熱點全球的風險分析報告他指出台灣大概有73%的人口\n\n4\n00:00:54,747 --> 00:01:09,780\n我們居住73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害的可能衝擊的地區第二個遭受到兩種災害衝擊以上的國土地區台灣高達90%以上的國土\n\n5\n00:01:13,563 --> 00:01:35,802\n這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎\n\n6\n00:01:40,255 --> 00:02:02,047\n全球UNDR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫所以你們自己的計畫\n\n7\n00:02:03,968 --> 00:02:25,560\n你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業災前那災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低\n\n8\n00:02:27,141 --> 00:02:51,974\n災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你\n\n9\n00:02:52,874 --> 00:03:13,067\n分別在災前災中災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員災前是統計了目前我們的量能積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎\n\n10\n00:03:14,328 --> 00:03:31,403\n對災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統\n\n11\n00:03:41,872 --> 00:03:55,144\n那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS\n\n12\n00:03:57,527 --> 00:04:13,059\n那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的準備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢\n\n13\n00:04:14,342 --> 00:04:42,378\n錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決\n\n14\n00:04:43,439 --> 00:04:56,806\n系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新\n\n15\n00:05:11,954 --> 00:05:34,906\n即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理\n\n16\n00:05:41,229 --> 00:05:55,999\n架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎\n\n17\n00:05:57,140 --> 00:06:12,721\n報告委員災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷\n\n18\n00:06:14,403 --> 00:06:32,819\n因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道\n\n19\n00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:47,448\n整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資\n\n20\n00:06:51,830 --> 00:06:57,820\n自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了也叫地方要撤離了嘛\n\n21\n00:07:06,974 --> 00:07:29,569\n所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個\n\n22\n00:07:30,956 --> 00:07:41,006\n有沒有做到這樣子不一定有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎\n\n23\n00:07:43,048 --> 00:08:06,333\n我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說\n\n24\n00:08:07,293 --> 00:08:24,987\n系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統\n\n25\n00:08:25,948 --> 00:08:47,027\n可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用\n\n26\n00:08:47,808 --> 00:08:51,513\n而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出你們的溝通方式是環境部人員\n\n27\n00:09:04,691 --> 00:09:22,792\n手動推波LINE群組提醒地方政府要進行災情通報在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達\n\n28\n00:09:24,153 --> 00:09:50,999\n我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了不是我們是要風險預測你要達到風險預測你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的整備的作用嗎蛤\n\n29\n00:09:53,277 --> 00:10:08,736\n我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛所以我問你花多少錢你們講的這麼好聽AMIS滴滴斯OK你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧我是簡稱啦\n\n30\n00:10:10,097 --> 00:10:19,001\n那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在\n\n31\n00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:55,788\n我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講了災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針\n\n32\n00:11:02,454 --> 00:11:07,818\n這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊\n\n33\n00:11:19,285 --> 00:11:30,575\n非常明確的在規範了地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體措施平時整備的階段災害應急的階段還有復舊復原復興的階段那災害應急的階段他們還規範了說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準\n\n34\n00:11:41,344 --> 00:12:07,862\n要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散你要定期灑水設置防飛的散網那你處理實棉建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設防滲透層\n\n35\n00:12:10,544 --> 00:12:31,694\n所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維\n\n36\n00:12:37,637 --> 00:13:06,346\n但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到它體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力\n\n37\n00:13:07,046 --> 00:13:28,212\n而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛\n\n38\n00:13:28,712 --> 00:13:43,278\n譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔治場他們都規劃要兩階段\n\n39\n00:13:47,859 --> 00:14:08,730\n兩階段日本在經歷阪神大地震東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段第一階段是暫制的我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫災民清理出來讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制\n\n40\n00:14:09,790 --> 00:14:26,624\n所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了\n\n41\n00:14:27,484 --> 00:14:50,712\n所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要跟你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了\n\n42\n00:14:52,353 --> 00:15:07,326\n他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場第二次的佔治場\n\n43\n00:15:08,487 --> 00:15:25,287\n然後呢完成了土地協調環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次第二次的戰事場都跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看\n\n44\n00:15:28,661 --> 00:15:44,508\n這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程\n\n45\n00:15:46,349 --> 00:16:12,179\n那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理\n\n46\n00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:29,316\n我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套\n\n47\n00:16:30,757 --> 00:16:51,910\n要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是\n\n48\n00:16:54,972 --> 00:17:15,488\n是委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們就覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題\n\n49\n00:17:16,249 --> 00:17:23,576\n因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼\n\n50\n00:17:34,406 --> 00:17:37,328\n所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備災中要應變災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統\n\n51\n00:17:59,363 --> 00:18:19,040\n你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢要建置這些系統可是你們是我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的可是就沒好現在目前來看是沒好的系統\n\n52\n00:18:24,929 --> 00:18:50,431\n痛定思痛啦這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門\n\n53\n00:18:51,732 --> 00:19:08,262\n我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林書文委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9431\t12188\t好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長\n18837\t39070\t部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重\n39790\t54006\t那根據世界銀行的這個出版他出版那個天然災害的熱點全球的風險分析報告他指出台灣大概有73%的人口\n54747\t69780\t我們居住73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害的可能衝擊的地區第二個遭受到兩種災害衝擊以上的國土地區台灣高達90%以上的國土\n73563\t95802\t這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎\n100255\t122047\t全球UNDR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦 出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫所以你們自己的計畫\n123968\t145560\t你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業 災前那災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低\n147141\t171974\t災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你\n172874\t193067\t分別在災前 災中 災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員 災前是統計了目前我們的量能 積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎\n194328\t211403\t對 災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎 再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統\n221872\t235144\t那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS\n237527\t253059\t那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的準備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢\n254342\t282378\t錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢 花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子 我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決\n283439\t296806\t系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新\n311954\t334906\t即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理\n341229\t355999\t架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎\n357140\t372721\t報告委員 災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷\n374403\t392819\t因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道\n393800\t407448\t整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資\n411830\t417820\t自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了 也叫地方要撤離了嘛\n426974\t449569\t所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個\n450956\t461006\t有沒有做到這樣子不一定有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎\n463048\t486333\t我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說\n487293\t504987\t系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統\n505948\t527027\t可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用\n527808\t531513\t而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出你們的溝通方式是環境部人員\n544691\t562792\t手動推波LINE群組提醒地方政府要進行災情通報在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達\n564153\t590999\t我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了不是我們是要風險預測你要達到風險預測你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的整備的作用嗎蛤\n593277\t608736\t我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛 所以我問你花多少錢你們講的這麼好聽 AMIS 滴滴斯OK 你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧 我是簡稱啦\n610097\t619001\t那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在\n636890\t655788\t我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講了災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針\n662454\t667818\t這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊\n679285\t690575\t非常明確的在規範了地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體措施平時整備的階段 災害應急的階段還有復舊 復原 復興的階段那災害應急的階段 他們還規範了說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準\n701344\t727862\t要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散 你要定期灑水設置防飛的散網那你處理實棉建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設防滲透層\n730544\t751694\t所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維\n757637\t786346\t但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類 暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到它體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力\n787046\t808212\t而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地 選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環 譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛 距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛\n808712\t823278\t譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔治場他們都規劃要兩階段\n827859\t848730\t兩階段 日本在經歷阪神大地震 東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段 第一階段是暫制的 我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫災民清理出來 讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度 但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制\n849790\t866624\t所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了\n867484\t890712\t所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要跟你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了\n892353\t907326\t他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場第二次的佔治場\n908487\t925287\t然後呢 完成了土地協調 環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次第二次的戰事場都跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看\n928661\t944508\t這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程\n946349\t972179\t那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理\n973760\t989316\t我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套\n990757\t1011910\t要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是\n1014972\t1035488\t是 委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們就覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題\n1036249\t1043576\t因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼\n1054406\t1057328\t所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備 災中要應變 災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎 很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統\n1079363\t1099040\t你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了 可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢要建置這些系統可是你們是 我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的 可是就沒好現在目前來看是沒好的系統\n1104929\t1130431\t痛定思痛啦 這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦 大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門\n1131732\t1148262\t我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林書文委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長\n部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重\n那根據世界銀行的這個出版他出版那個天然災害的熱點全球的風險分析報告他指出台灣大概有73%的人口\n我們居住73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害的可能衝擊的地區第二個遭受到兩種災害衝擊以上的國土地區台灣高達90%以上的國土\n這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎\n全球UNDR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦 出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫所以你們自己的計畫\n你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業 災前那災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低\n災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你\n分別在災前 災中 災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員 災前是統計了目前我們的量能 積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎\n對 災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎 再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統\n那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS\n那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的準備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢\n錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢 花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子 我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決\n系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新\n即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理\n架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎\n報告委員 災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷\n因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道\n整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資\n自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了 也叫地方要撤離了嘛\n所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個\n有沒有做到這樣子不一定有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎\n我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說\n系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統\n可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用\n而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出你們的溝通方式是環境部人員\n手動推波LINE群組提醒地方政府要進行災情通報在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達\n我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了不是我們是要風險預測你要達到風險預測你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的整備的作用嗎蛤\n我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛 所以我問你花多少錢你們講的這麼好聽 AMIS 滴滴斯OK 你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧 我是簡稱啦\n那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在\n我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講了災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針\n這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊\n非常明確的在規範了地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體措施平時整備的階段 災害應急的階段還有復舊 復原 復興的階段那災害應急的階段 他們還規範了說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準\n要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散 你要定期灑水設置防飛的散網那你處理實棉建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設防滲透層\n所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維\n但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類 暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到它體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力\n而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地 選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環 譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛 距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛\n譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔治場他們都規劃要兩階段\n兩階段 日本在經歷阪神大地震 東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段 第一階段是暫制的 我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫災民清理出來 讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度 但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制\n所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了\n所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要跟你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了\n他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場第二次的佔治場\n然後呢 完成了土地協調 環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次第二次的戰事場都跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看\n這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程\n那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理\n我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套\n要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是\n是 委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們就覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題\n因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼\n所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備 災中要應變 災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎 很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統\n你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了 可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢要建置這些系統可是你們是 我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的 可是就沒好現在目前來看是沒好的系統\n痛定思痛啦 這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦 大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門\n我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林書文委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.431 --> 00:12.188\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們彭部長\n\n00:18.837 --> 00:39.070\n部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重\n\n00:39.790 --> 00:54.006\n那根據世界銀行的這個出版他出版那個天然災害的熱點全球的風險分析報告他指出台灣大概有73%的人口\n\n00:54.747 --> 01:09.780\n我們居住73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害的可能衝擊的地區第二個遭受到兩種災害衝擊以上的國土地區台灣高達90%以上的國土\n\n01:13.563 --> 01:35.802\n這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎\n\n01:40.255 --> 02:02.047\n全球UNDR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫所以你們自己的計畫\n\n02:03.968 --> 02:25.560\n你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業災前那災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低\n\n02:27.141 --> 02:51.974\n災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你\n\n02:52.874 --> 03:13.067\n分別在災前災中災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員災前是統計了目前我們的量能積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎\n\n03:14.328 --> 03:31.403\n對災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統\n\n03:41.872 --> 03:55.144\n那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS\n\n03:57.527 --> 04:13.059\n那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的準備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢\n\n04:14.342 --> 04:42.378\n錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決\n\n04:43.439 --> 04:56.806\n系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新\n\n05:11.954 --> 05:34.906\n即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理\n\n05:41.229 --> 05:55.999\n架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎\n\n05:57.140 --> 06:12.721\n報告委員災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷\n\n06:14.403 --> 06:32.819\n因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道\n\n06:33.800 --> 06:47.448\n整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資\n\n06:51.830 --> 06:57.820\n自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了也叫地方要撤離了嘛\n\n07:06.974 --> 07:29.569\n所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個\n\n07:30.956 --> 07:41.006\n有沒有做到這樣子不一定有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎\n\n07:43.048 --> 08:06.333\n我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說\n\n08:07.293 --> 08:24.987\n系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統\n\n08:25.948 --> 08:47.027\n可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用\n\n08:47.808 --> 08:51.513\n而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出你們的溝通方式是環境部人員\n\n09:04.691 --> 09:22.792\n手動推波LINE群組提醒地方政府要進行災情通報在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達\n\n09:24.153 --> 09:50.999\n我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了不是我們是要風險預測你要達到風險預測你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的整備的作用嗎蛤\n\n09:53.277 --> 10:08.736\n我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛所以我問你花多少錢你們講的這麼好聽AMIS滴滴斯OK你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧我是簡稱啦\n\n10:10.097 --> 10:19.001\n那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在\n\n10:36.890 --> 10:55.788\n我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講了災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針\n\n11:02.454 --> 11:07.818\n這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊\n\n11:19.285 --> 11:30.575\n非常明確的在規範了地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體措施平時整備的階段災害應急的階段還有復舊復原復興的階段那災害應急的階段他們還規範了說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準\n\n11:41.344 --> 12:07.862\n要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散你要定期灑水設置防飛的散網那你處理實棉建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設防滲透層\n\n12:10.544 --> 12:31.694\n所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維\n\n12:37.637 --> 13:06.346\n但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到它體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力\n\n13:07.046 --> 13:28.212\n而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛\n\n13:28.712 --> 13:43.278\n譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔治場他們都規劃要兩階段\n\n13:47.859 --> 14:08.730\n兩階段日本在經歷阪神大地震東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段第一階段是暫制的我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫災民清理出來讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制\n\n14:09.790 --> 14:26.624\n所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了\n\n14:27.484 --> 14:50.712\n所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要跟你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了\n\n14:52.353 --> 15:07.326\n他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場第二次的佔治場\n\n15:08.487 --> 15:25.287\n然後呢完成了土地協調環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次第二次的戰事場都跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看\n\n15:28.661 --> 15:44.508\n這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程\n\n15:46.349 --> 16:12.179\n那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理\n\n16:13.760 --> 16:29.316\n我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套\n\n16:30.757 --> 16:51.910\n要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是\n\n16:54.972 --> 17:15.488\n是委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們就覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題\n\n17:16.249 --> 17:23.576\n因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼\n\n17:34.406 --> 17:37.328\n所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備災中要應變災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統\n\n17:59.363 --> 18:19.040\n你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢要建置這些系統可是你們是我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的可是就沒好現在目前來看是沒好的系統\n\n18:24.929 --> 18:50.431\n痛定思痛啦這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門\n\n18:51.732 --> 19:08.262\n我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林書文委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.431,"end":12.188,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長"},{"start":18.837,"end":39.07,"text":"部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重"},{"start":39.79,"end":54.006,"text":"那根據世界銀行的這個出版他出版那個天然災害的熱點全球的風險分析報告他指出台灣大概有73%的人口"},{"start":54.747,"end":69.78,"text":"我們居住73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害的可能衝擊的地區第二個遭受到兩種災害衝擊以上的國土地區台灣高達90%以上的國土"},{"start":73.563,"end":95.802,"text":"這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎"},{"start":100.255,"end":122.047,"text":"全球UNDR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦 出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫所以你們自己的計畫"},{"start":123.968,"end":145.56,"text":"你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業 災前那災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低"},{"start":147.141,"end":171.974,"text":"災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你"},{"start":172.874,"end":193.067,"text":"分別在災前 災中 災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員 災前是統計了目前我們的量能 積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎"},{"start":194.328,"end":211.403,"text":"對 災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎 再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統"},{"start":221.872,"end":235.144,"text":"那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS"},{"start":237.527,"end":253.059,"text":"那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的準備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢"},{"start":254.342,"end":282.378,"text":"錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢 花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子 我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決"},{"start":283.439,"end":296.806,"text":"系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新"},{"start":311.954,"end":334.906,"text":"即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理"},{"start":341.229,"end":355.999,"text":"架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎"},{"start":357.14,"end":372.721,"text":"報告委員 災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷"},{"start":374.403,"end":392.819,"text":"因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道"},{"start":393.8,"end":407.448,"text":"整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資"},{"start":411.83,"end":417.82,"text":"自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了 也叫地方要撤離了嘛"},{"start":426.974,"end":449.569,"text":"所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個"},{"start":450.956,"end":461.006,"text":"有沒有做到這樣子不一定有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎"},{"start":463.048,"end":486.333,"text":"我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說"},{"start":487.293,"end":504.987,"text":"系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統"},{"start":505.948,"end":527.027,"text":"可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用"},{"start":527.808,"end":531.513,"text":"而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出你們的溝通方式是環境部人員"},{"start":544.691,"end":562.792,"text":"手動推波LINE群組提醒地方政府要進行災情通報在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達"},{"start":564.153,"end":590.999,"text":"我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了不是我們是要風險預測你要達到風險預測你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的整備的作用嗎蛤"},{"start":593.277,"end":608.736,"text":"我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛 所以我問你花多少錢你們講的這麼好聽 AMIS 滴滴斯OK 你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧 我是簡稱啦"},{"start":610.097,"end":619.001,"text":"那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在"},{"start":636.89,"end":655.788,"text":"我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講了災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針"},{"start":662.454,"end":667.818,"text":"這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊"},{"start":679.285,"end":690.575,"text":"非常明確的在規範了地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體措施平時整備的階段 災害應急的階段還有復舊 復原 復興的階段那災害應急的階段 他們還規範了說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準"},{"start":701.344,"end":727.862,"text":"要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散 你要定期灑水設置防飛的散網那你處理實棉建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設防滲透層"},{"start":730.544,"end":751.694,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維"},{"start":757.637,"end":786.346,"text":"但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類 暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到它體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力"},{"start":787.046,"end":808.212,"text":"而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地 選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環 譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛 距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛"},{"start":808.712,"end":823.278,"text":"譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔治場他們都規劃要兩階段"},{"start":827.859,"end":848.73,"text":"兩階段 日本在經歷阪神大地震 東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段 第一階段是暫制的 我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫災民清理出來 讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度 但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制"},{"start":849.79,"end":866.624,"text":"所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了"},{"start":867.484,"end":890.712,"text":"所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要跟你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了"},{"start":892.353,"end":907.326,"text":"他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場第二次的佔治場"},{"start":908.487,"end":925.287,"text":"然後呢 完成了土地協調 環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次第二次的戰事場都跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看"},{"start":928.661,"end":944.508,"text":"這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程"},{"start":946.349,"end":972.179,"text":"那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理"},{"start":973.76,"end":989.316,"text":"我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套"},{"start":990.757,"end":1011.91,"text":"要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是"},{"start":1014.972,"end":1035.488,"text":"是 委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們就覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題"},{"start":1036.249,"end":1043.576,"text":"因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼"},{"start":1054.406,"end":1057.328,"text":"所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備 災中要應變 災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎 很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統"},{"start":1079.363,"end":1099.04,"text":"你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了 可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢要建置這些系統可是你們是 我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的 可是就沒好現在目前來看是沒好的系統"},{"start":1104.929,"end":1130.431,"text":"痛定思痛啦 這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦 大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門"},{"start":1131.732,"end":1148.262,"text":"我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林書文委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（13時10分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，辛苦了！但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程，討論這個概念，因為也是一個機會嘛！我們看到在極端氣候之下，各種災害頻繁和極端化，都從單一災害變成複合式災害，影響的程度非常嚴重。","根據世界銀行出版的「天然災害熱點：全球風險分析」報告，它指出臺灣大概有73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害可能衝擊的地區。第二個，遭受到兩種以上災害衝擊的國土地區，臺灣高達90%以上的國土地區都是兩種以上災害的可能性，所以對臺灣的國土而言，對臺灣的人口居住地區而言，臺灣要承擔的災害風險是相當相當大的。你知道世界銀行出版的「天然災害熱點：全球風險分析」，這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：全球UNDRR，就是聯合國一個災害的機構。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫，你們的委外研究計畫是「112年至113年災害整備及應變與復原支援系統計畫」，這是你們自己的計畫。你們是希望透過這個計畫中的系統建置，要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的整備作業；災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業，將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低；災後你們要運用環境災害管理資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度，進而有效地發揮最大的防災和救災能量。你們告訴我們說你們要有預算去建置一套系統，我想請教部長，就馬太鞍災害這個事件，請問你們分別在災前、災中、災後整備了哪些事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，災前是統計了目前我們的量能，機具的量能有多少，例如說我們就會整備全臺灣各環保局的量能，大概1萬5,000臺各式樣的機具，然後誰可以有空，誰可以來做這個事。"],["林委員淑芬：你們在災前就統計了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，災前就統計了，不過我也跟委員報告，因為委員上次質詢我的時候，我的確有思考到這個問題，而且我們後來也有再去光復災區去看，委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫喔！你們是「112年至113年災害整備及應變與復原支援系統計畫」的建置，你們要建置這一套系統，那你們有兩個系統，一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統（EMIS），一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統（DEDS），你們是希望透過這個資訊科技，強化臺灣在環境災害發生時，包括事前的整備、災害中的應變以及災後的復原能力，所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：錢我不知道，但是我有用過EMIS的系統。"],["林委員淑芬：你們花多少錢？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料。"],["林委員淑芬：你們花多少錢不知道，你們要這樣子，我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦！或者是講得好像很好聽啦！你們要我們給你們錢，你們要建置一套資訊系統，然後這套系統多厲害！要建立一個中央化的數據資料庫，要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料介接，系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊，包括中央氣象署，包括衛福部，包括內政部，包括你們環境部自己的，你們號稱是這樣子。","依據你們的報告，你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中，還要用視覺化的方式去呈現，目的是要為決策者提供一個清晰即時的全域圖像，而且你們還告訴我們說，系統要依據使用者的職權劃分不同的角色，從中央的系統管理員，到環境部司署的應變角色，到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關，各自擁有不同的資料填報、查詢和審核的權限，你們企圖讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理架構，但是我要問部長，這個系統的這些建置、這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的，災前整備、災中降低危害、災後發揮救災能量嗎？有嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，災前是有的，但是災中因為我有參與實際的過程，我也跟委員坦承說，在那麼高壓的急救當中，似乎我是沒有看到這個系統。"],["林委員淑芬：那災前你們到底是做了哪一些整備？你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷？"],["彭部長啓明：災前的話……"],["林委員淑芬：因為我們都知道，系統在作為一個數據蒐集的記錄系統，或許表現出色，但是蒐集完以後，你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上，那能力到底有沒有辦法使用，這就是一個考驗喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！你們知道整個系統的建置就是要確切地能夠發揮作用，真正的事前整備能力是要能夠具備風險預測、需求推估，比如說颱風來臨以前，系統應該結合氣象署的定量降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢圖資，自動推估出哪些鄉鎮會出現大規模的淹水，進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量。以馬太鞍為例，你們應該早就都預測到，因為我們也掌握了，也叫地方要撤離了嘛！所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水，而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中，你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警，建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具，你們的系統到底能不能做到這個？有沒有做到這樣子？部長，有嗎？你說你們建置的系統已經發揮作用，有一些功能，你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：報告委員，我們建置系統主要是建置全國22縣市環保單位基本的機具需求，然後他們建置了機具之後，每次當有颱風災害來臨的時候，我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變中心的資訊以後，我們就會立即通知受災地區……"],["林委員淑芬：你都不知道大概會有多少廢棄物數量，那你怎麼會知道有多少機具的需求？我再講一下，你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構當中，換句話說，這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作平臺，而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統，可是我們知道真實的複合式災害它一定是要橫向協作，而且是要跨部門，所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的。","你們現在跨部會的橫向整合是零，而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用，而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足。以0403花蓮地震為例，你們的報告裡面指出，你們的溝通方式是環境部人員手動推播LINE群組，提醒地方政府要進行災情通報，在真實危機的壓力下，地方應變人員仍然倚賴一個外部的、不是你們系統的、沒有整合的通訊軟體──LINE，來做基本的指令傳達。","我的意思是說，災前整備不是蒐集數據、問地方政府到底有多少機具這樣就好，不是！是要做風險預測。但要達到風險預測，你告訴我，你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎？有需求推估，進而擬定應變計畫、事前整備的作用嗎？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊新而且廣。"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！所以我才問你花多少錢。你們講得這麼好聽，EMIS、DEDS，你們的兩個系統或許是這樣念吧！我是簡稱啦！一個國家災害整備的成熟度往往體現在對災後各種複雜問題預先規劃的深度，而我們從災後來看才認為你們是不行的。你們的EMIS、DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐、掩埋場的營運數據納入監測，而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊，但是你們都停留在處理量能，包括焚化爐、垃圾掩埋場處理量能的追蹤，日本的整備模式則已經深入到對整個處理流程標準化的管理，展現了更高層次的運作準備。","我今天要特別要跟部長分享上次跟你講的災害廢棄物的處理計畫、災害廢棄物的對策指針，日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物對策指針，也就是他們的處理流程。先談他們的對策指針不只是政策綱領，而是一本可以操作的行動手冊，非常明確地規範地方政府在災害應對各個階段所需要的具體措施，包括平時整備階段、災害應急階段、還有復舊、復原、復興階段。針對災害應急階段，他們還規範了臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準，要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類、如何確保勞動安全，以及針對不同廢棄物的環境保護對策是什麼，比如說為了防止粉塵逸散要定期灑水、設置防飛散網，處理石綿建材須用帆布覆蓋，而且要存放在柔性集裝袋裡；處理油品時，要在地面鋪設防滲透層。在這種狀況下，日本的對策指針還定義了什麼是災害廢棄物的範疇。","透過比較可以發現，臺灣的系統著重監控廢棄物處理設施的剩餘容積、掩埋場的貯坑量，這是一種靜態的資源盤點思維。但日本呢？他們的指引著重管理從產生廢棄物、分類、暫存到最終處理的整個流程，這是動態的運作管理思維。從這種從資源盤點到流程管理深化的做法，我們看到它體現了日本在多次大規模災害以後，將慘痛教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟治理能力。而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下，倉促地由台糖釋地，選址沒有經過真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通。這種事後才找土地暫置場的做法一定會導致很多惡性循環，譬如說引發民怨的惡臭，因為距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛！譬如說設施簡陋，你們連地面鋪設不透水布、建置完成的滲出水收集系統都統統沒有，因為是臨時的嘛！","日本已經演化到即便是暫置場，他們都規劃兩階段。日本在經歷阪神大地震、東日本大震災以後分為兩階段，第一階段是暫置，我們知道第一次暫置是臨時的，因為要以趕快幫災民清理出來，讓他們可以生活為第一要務。第一階段是過渡，但是他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫置。從第一階段的暫置場到第二階段，要做到專業化和資源循環，然後做最終處理。第一階段講求的可能是效率、可能是減壓，加速恢復災區的環境，可是第二階段就不一樣了，所以人家這樣的系統優越。你看一下，我要給你看的是他們要分流減壓，避免所有複雜作業都集中在災區周邊、他們的效率要提升。第二，暫置場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率。第三，他們前瞻規劃，這些都一定在災前處理，因為早就預測了！他們因為在災前整備就預測可能的問題，所以地方政府早就在地域防災計畫或者是災害廢棄物處理計畫中完成了第一次暫置場、第二次暫置場的規劃，並完成土地協調、環評和居民溝通，避免了災後倉促尋地的困境。所以包括災前計畫裡早就擬定了，包括第一次、第二次暫置場，都已經跟社區居民溝通過了。你看，這是他們在初期行動階段要做什麼、也包括緊急應對的前半階段、後半階段，還有復原、復興階段。人家的規劃包括垃圾、廢棄物的產生量、執行計畫、處理方針、處理流程、處理時程，在蒐集、搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼、搬去哪裡、暫置場怎麼處理、二次災害防止怎麼處理、有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理、對二次暫置場要怎麼推估可能的處理量、要破碎、篩分等等，到最後還要追蹤處理。","我的意思是說，臺灣真的離日本這個模式很遠、很遠。所以我要問部長，我們對災害廢棄物的暫置完全是應急式規劃，沒有事前整備，那是不是應該規劃一套做法，要求地方政府必須在地區災害防救計畫中還有相關平時演練中預先規劃、指定完成相關整備和溝通，以確保萬一真正發生的時候能夠立即啟動，而不是一而再、再而三，總是臨時抱佛腳，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，其實從上次的質詢之後，我自己就開始跟同仁討論要如何處理，對於委員所提學習日本的建議，我們覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的。特別是急就章的時候，包含地方環保局的量能都出現問題，加上大家都急著解決，後面就造成更多問題。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你沒有政策指導啊！災害的概念裡沒有災害廢棄物的概念。如果環境部的防災連災害廢棄物處理的計畫、對策這個概念統統沒有，你就不會要求地方政府要做什麼，而地方政府也來不及做什麼。你們講災前要整備、災中要應變、災後要重建、復原，可是你們號稱有這些災前整備系統，包括災前預警、應變、決策和支援系統，名字好聽嗎？很好聽。「環境災害管理資訊系統」這個名字好聽嗎？很好聽。你們也說希望透過這些系統達到災前整備、應變和復原能力，三個名詞都講對了，可是都沒有作用，因為真的不是那麼一回事。你們要人家給你們錢建置這些系統，可是我不曉得你們是從哪裡學來的，就是沒效，目前看來是無效的系統。要痛定思痛啦！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們會檢討改進，虛心受教。針對這部分，現在我跟同仁確實在準備好好研究、探討當中。當然，因為大部分同仁都還在花蓮……"],["林委員淑芬：他山之石啊！大部分的人在那裡，但是在那裡的也是某一個業務單位啦！你們的核心部門統統在臺北正常工作，大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我們會檢討，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：應該好好面對、正視，不要再這樣子。日本已經有經驗可以學習，所以是很容易學習的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","下一位請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}}