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\"text\": \"那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 57.659, \"end\": 57.919, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 57.919, \"end\": 58.36, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 58.36, \"end\": 59.901, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"筆\"}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 59.901, \"end\": 60.161, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 60.161, \"end\": 61.242, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 61.242, \"end\": 61.442, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 61.442, \"end\": 62.182, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 62.182, \"end\": 62.322, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 62.322, \"end\": 62.503, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 62.503, \"end\": 62.703, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"保\", 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\"了\", \"start\": 77.473, \"end\": 77.874, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 77.874, \"end\": 78.014, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 78.014, \"end\": 78.794, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 78.794, \"end\": 79.315, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 79.315, \"end\": 79.535, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 79.535, \"end\": 80.796, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"颱\"}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"損\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 80.796, \"end\": 82.317, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 82.317, \"end\": 82.477, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 82.477, \"end\": 82.637, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 82.637, \"end\": 82.797, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 82.797, \"end\": 82.937, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 82.937, \"end\": 83.438, 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這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 87.59, \"end\": 87.911, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"圍\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 87.911, \"end\": 88.091, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 88.091, \"end\": 88.691, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 88.691, \"end\": 88.831, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 88.831, \"end\": 88.971, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 88.971, \"end\": 89.251, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 89.251, \"end\": 89.352, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 89.352, \"end\": 89.492, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 89.492, \"end\": 90.252, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"損\"}, {\"word\": \"壞\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 90.252, \"end\": 90.993, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 90.993, \"end\": 91.133, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, 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\"那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 243.084, \"end\": 245.226, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 245.226, \"end\": 245.386, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 245.386, \"end\": 245.927, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 245.927, \"end\": 246.067, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 246.067, \"end\": 246.627, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 246.627, \"end\": 246.687, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 246.687, \"end\": 247.128, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 247.128, \"end\": 249.43, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 249.43, \"end\": 249.57, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 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\"text\": \"這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 364.3, \"end\": 364.56, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 364.56, \"end\": 364.74, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 364.74, \"end\": 365.481, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 365.481, \"end\": 366.081, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 366.081, \"end\": 366.281, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 366.281, \"end\": 366.421, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 366.421, \"end\": 366.581, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 366.581, \"end\": 367.041, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"貴\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 367.041, \"end\": 367.922, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 367.922, \"end\": 368.582, 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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 374.364, \"end\": 375.065, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 375.065, \"end\": 375.765, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 375.765, \"end\": 375.945, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 375.945, \"end\": 376.285, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 376.285, \"end\": 378.046, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 378.046, \"end\": 378.466, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 378.466, \"end\": 378.646, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 378.646, \"end\": 378.886, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 378.886, \"end\": 379.227, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 379.227, \"end\": 379.787, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 379.787, \"end\": 379.967, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 379.967, \"end\": 380.067, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 380.067, \"end\": 380.227, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 380.227, \"end\": 380.727, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 380.727, \"end\": 381.608, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 381.608, \"end\": 381.888, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 381.888, \"end\": 382.188, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 382.188, \"end\": 382.548, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 382.548, \"end\": 382.748, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 382.748, \"end\": 382.848, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 382.848, \"end\": 383.088, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 383.088, \"end\": 383.508, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 383.508, \"end\": 383.868, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", 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387.11, \"end\": 387.43, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 387.43, \"end\": 387.77, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 387.77, \"end\": 387.93, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 387.93, \"end\": 388.69, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 388.69, \"end\": 388.851, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 388.851, \"end\": 389.051, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 389.051, \"end\": 389.191, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 389.191, \"end\": 389.271, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 389.271, \"end\": 389.671, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 389.671, \"end\": 390.011, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 390.011, \"end\": 390.111, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 390.111, \"end\": 390.131, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 390.131, \"end\": 390.151, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"輸\"}]}, {\"start\": 392.412, \"end\": 410.922, \"text\": \"成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 392.412, \"end\": 392.592, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 392.592, \"end\": 392.932, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 392.932, \"end\": 393.072, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 393.072, \"end\": 393.413, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 393.413, \"end\": 393.793, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 393.793, \"end\": 393.933, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 393.933, \"end\": 394.053, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 394.053, \"end\": 394.633, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 394.633, \"end\": 394.833, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 394.833, \"end\": 395.214, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 395.214, \"end\": 395.374, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 395.374, \"end\": 395.794, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 395.794, \"end\": 396.034, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 396.034, \"end\": 396.634, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 396.634, \"end\": 396.775, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 396.775, \"end\": 397.015, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 397.015, \"end\": 397.235, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 397.235, \"end\": 398.576, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 398.576, \"end\": 399.096, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 399.096, \"end\": 399.656, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 399.656, \"end\": 400.276, 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\"end\": 404.459, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 404.459, \"end\": 405.019, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"材\", \"start\": 405.019, \"end\": 405.179, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 405.179, \"end\": 405.659, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 405.659, \"end\": 405.8, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 405.8, \"end\": 406.12, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 406.12, \"end\": 406.96, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 406.96, \"end\": 407.3, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 407.3, \"end\": 407.641, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 407.641, \"end\": 407.901, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 407.901, \"end\": 408.301, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 408.301, \"end\": 408.641, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 408.641, \"end\": 408.901, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 408.901, \"end\": 408.981, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 408.981, \"end\": 409.181, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 409.181, \"end\": 409.862, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 409.862, \"end\": 410.162, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 410.162, \"end\": 410.602, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 410.602, \"end\": 410.822, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.822, \"end\": 410.902, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 410.902, \"end\": 410.922, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}]}, {\"start\": 412.023, \"end\": 438.34, \"text\": \"那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 412.023, \"end\": 412.403, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 412.403, \"end\": 412.784, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 412.784, \"end\": 413.204, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 413.204, \"end\": 413.464, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 413.464, \"end\": 413.924, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 413.924, \"end\": 414.265, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 414.265, \"end\": 414.585, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 414.585, \"end\": 415.405, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"仍\", \"start\": 415.405, \"end\": 415.706, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 415.706, \"end\": 416.866, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 416.866, \"end\": 417.046, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 417.046, \"end\": 417.407, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 417.407, \"end\": 417.647, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 417.647, \"end\": 417.827, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 417.827, \"end\": 417.987, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 417.987, \"end\": 418.187, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 418.187, \"end\": 418.567, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 418.567, \"end\": 418.748, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 418.748, \"end\": 418.868, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 418.868, \"end\": 419.488, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 419.488, \"end\": 419.688, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 419.688, \"end\": 419.788, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 419.788, \"end\": 420.569, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"賣\"}, {\"word\": \"材\", \"start\": 420.569, \"end\": 420.769, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 420.769, \"end\": 421.529, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 421.529, \"end\": 421.75, \"score\": 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\"等\", \"start\": 429.715, \"end\": 431.176, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 431.176, \"end\": 431.576, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 431.576, \"end\": 432.557, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 432.557, \"end\": 432.657, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 432.657, \"end\": 432.817, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 432.817, \"end\": 433.077, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 433.077, \"end\": 433.297, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 433.297, \"end\": 433.417, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 433.417, \"end\": 433.537, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 433.537, \"end\": 434.478, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 434.478, \"end\": 435.058, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 435.058, \"end\": 435.218, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 435.218, \"end\": 435.679, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 435.679, \"end\": 436.459, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 436.459, \"end\": 436.579, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 436.579, \"end\": 436.759, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 436.759, \"end\": 436.96, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 436.96, \"end\": 438.22, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"賺\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 438.22, \"end\": 438.28, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 438.28, \"end\": 438.32, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 438.32, \"end\": 438.34, \"score\": 0.058}]}, {\"start\": 439.461, \"end\": 466.664, \"text\": \"點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 439.461, 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00:01:26,039\n那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理\n\n4\n00:01:27,590 --> 00:01:52,848\n包圍沒有這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費對這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能\n\n5\n00:01:54,279 --> 00:02:16,193\n是的就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣\n\n6\n00:02:18,808 --> 00:02:31,858\n其實我這個簡報上就是因為在這個1000元每千瓦1000元的這個設計上我們其實他當然主要原先設計是說支應回收技術研發然後輔導處理設廠\n\n7\n00:02:36,448 --> 00:02:59,759\n福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災天災意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮\n\n8\n00:03:00,973 --> 00:03:27,682\n要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限\n\n9\n00:03:28,983 --> 00:03:42,862\n這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助\n\n10\n00:03:45,305 --> 00:04:02,163\n其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的\n\n11\n00:04:03,084 --> 00:04:26,626\n那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況\n\n12\n00:04:27,947 --> 00:04:56,201\n那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗\n\n13\n00:04:57,203 --> 00:05:08,010\n為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害\n\n14\n00:05:09,337 --> 00:05:28,985\n對我舉一個苗栗這家他是老闆很認真他會用想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收那桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說那個廢棄的這個\n\n15\n00:05:32,106 --> 00:05:48,401\n太陽能板的有價值的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厲害了但是我們來看一下說它的分佈問題有沒有區域壟斷的問題\n\n16\n00:05:50,075 --> 00:06:03,107\n的確現在這次因為在桃園或是苗栗他從嘉義運上去那個運輸的成本就很貴所以我們就一直考慮到說中南部應該一定要有才會解決這個問題以後如果還有\n\n17\n00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:30,151\n這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸\n\n18\n00:06:32,412 --> 00:06:50,922\n成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠\n\n19\n00:06:52,023 --> 00:07:18,340\n那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天\n\n20\n00:07:19,461 --> 00:07:46,664\n點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況\n\n21\n00:07:48,859 --> 00:08:11,330\n這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題\n\n22\n00:08:13,434 --> 00:08:41,049\n我不太明白你說的其他的成本還有例如像什麼就是那個處理廠商他可能有兩個收入嘛一個就是我們那個循環署以後給他一個補貼的錢另外一個呢他就是說他會再跟那個對方收一筆錢嘛那麼這兩筆錢裡面我們不可能讓他同時存在我們一定是取裡面的譬如說我們給他定額那超過的部分那他就不會再接受我們的那個補貼\n\n23\n00:08:43,487 --> 00:09:08,460\n我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解\n\n24\n00:09:08,860 --> 00:09:29,692\n但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的\n\n25\n00:09:32,093 --> 00:09:57,006\n投入龐大的资金如果说没有办法拿到这个D2528的资格等于说他们前面的投资都是白花了因此呢我们台湾就没有办法导入国外先进的这些回收技术也就没有办法就落实这个循环经济这件事情我想请教部长就是说光电板明明它不是一般的废弃物为什么要先取得加以及废弃物处理许可厂商\n\n26\n00:10:00,372 --> 00:10:11,067\n我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦至於說如何減少它的負擔我們可以來想辦法\n\n27\n00:10:13,755 --> 00:10:41,446\n是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資\n\n28\n00:10:42,006 --> 00:10:56,840\n對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議\n\n29\n00:10:58,277 --> 00:11:18,805\n不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣是非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時\n\n30\n00:11:25,587 --> 00:11:51,356\n也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間\n\n31\n00:11:52,768 --> 00:12:20,391\n可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告\n\n32\n00:12:21,257 --> 00:12:29,129\n好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝晨英委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11794\t32823\t麻煩請部長請彭部長曾委員好部長好這次7月的丹納斯風災造成許多光電板的損害那因此我想也是很好的機會讓我們來思考一下目前台灣光電板的回收跟現況的問題\n35894\t56750\t我想首先就我们讨论一下这个回收费用预缴的问题这个目前的规定是不是在建制太阳能板太阳能光电厂业者必须在建制的时候缴交每千瓦一千元的这个太阳能板回收处理费分十年缴交对108年以后对\n57659\t86039\t那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理\n87590\t112848\t包圍沒有 這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好 所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費對 這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能\n114279\t136193\t是的 就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有 就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣\n138808\t151858\t其實我這個簡報上就是因為在這個1000元每千瓦1000元的這個設計上我們其實他當然主要原先設計是說支應回收技術研發然後輔導處理設廠\n156448\t179759\t福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災天災意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮\n180973\t207682\t要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限\n208983\t222862\t這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助\n225305\t242163\t其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的\n243084\t266626\t那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況\n267947\t296201\t那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗\n297203\t308010\t為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害\n309337\t328985\t對 我舉一個苗栗這家他是老闆很認真他會用想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收那桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說那個廢棄的這個\n332106\t348401\t太陽能板的有價值的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厲害了但是我們來看一下說它的分佈問題有沒有區域壟斷的問題\n350075\t363107\t的確現在這次因為在桃園或是苗栗他從嘉義運上去那個運輸的成本就很貴所以我們就一直考慮到說中南部應該一定要有才會解決這個問題以後如果還有\n364300\t390151\t這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸\n392412\t410922\t成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠\n412023\t438340\t那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天\n439461\t466664\t點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況\n468859\t491330\t這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是 跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題\n493434\t521049\t我不太明白你說的其他的成本還有例如像什麼就是那個處理廠商他可能有兩個收入嘛一個就是我們那個循環署以後給他一個補貼的錢另外一個呢他就是說他會再跟那個對方收一筆錢嘛那麼這兩筆錢裡面我們不可能讓他同時存在我們一定是取裡面的譬如說我們給他定額那超過的部分那他就不會再接受我們的那個補貼\n523487\t548460\t我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解\n548860\t569692\t但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的\n572093\t597006\t投入龐大的资金如果说没有办法拿到这个D2528的资格等于说他们前面的投资都是白花了因此呢我们台湾就没有办法导入国外先进的这些回收技术也就没有办法就落实这个循环经济这件事情我想请教部长就是说光电板明明它不是一般的废弃物为什么要先取得加以及废弃物处理许可厂商\n600372\t611067\t我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦至於說如何減少它的負擔我們可以來想辦法\n613755\t641446\t是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資\n642006\t656840\t對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議\n658277\t678805\t不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣是非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時\n685587\t711356\t也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間\n712768\t740391\t可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告\n741257\t749129\t好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝晨英委員發言\n","txt":"麻煩請部長請彭部長曾委員好部長好這次7月的丹納斯風災造成許多光電板的損害那因此我想也是很好的機會讓我們來思考一下目前台灣光電板的回收跟現況的問題\n我想首先就我们讨论一下这个回收费用预缴的问题这个目前的规定是不是在建制太阳能板太阳能光电厂业者必须在建制的时候缴交每千瓦一千元的这个太阳能板回收处理费分十年缴交对108年以后对\n那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理\n包圍沒有 這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好 所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費對 這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能\n是的 就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有 就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣\n其實我這個簡報上就是因為在這個1000元每千瓦1000元的這個設計上我們其實他當然主要原先設計是說支應回收技術研發然後輔導處理設廠\n福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災天災意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮\n要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限\n這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助\n其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的\n那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況\n那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗\n為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害\n對 我舉一個苗栗這家他是老闆很認真他會用想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收那桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說那個廢棄的這個\n太陽能板的有價值的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厲害了但是我們來看一下說它的分佈問題有沒有區域壟斷的問題\n的確現在這次因為在桃園或是苗栗他從嘉義運上去那個運輸的成本就很貴所以我們就一直考慮到說中南部應該一定要有才會解決這個問題以後如果還有\n這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸\n成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠\n那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天\n點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況\n這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是 跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題\n我不太明白你說的其他的成本還有例如像什麼就是那個處理廠商他可能有兩個收入嘛一個就是我們那個循環署以後給他一個補貼的錢另外一個呢他就是說他會再跟那個對方收一筆錢嘛那麼這兩筆錢裡面我們不可能讓他同時存在我們一定是取裡面的譬如說我們給他定額那超過的部分那他就不會再接受我們的那個補貼\n我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解\n但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的\n投入龐大的资金如果说没有办法拿到这个D2528的资格等于说他们前面的投资都是白花了因此呢我们台湾就没有办法导入国外先进的这些回收技术也就没有办法就落实这个循环经济这件事情我想请教部长就是说光电板明明它不是一般的废弃物为什么要先取得加以及废弃物处理许可厂商\n我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦至於說如何減少它的負擔我們可以來想辦法\n是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資\n對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議\n不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣是非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時\n也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間\n可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告\n好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝晨英委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.794 --> 00:32.823\n麻煩請部長請彭部長曾委員好部長好這次7月的丹納斯風災造成許多光電板的損害那因此我想也是很好的機會讓我們來思考一下目前台灣光電板的回收跟現況的問題\n\n00:35.894 --> 00:56.750\n我想首先就我们讨论一下这个回收费用预缴的问题这个目前的规定是不是在建制太阳能板太阳能光电厂业者必须在建制的时候缴交每千瓦一千元的这个太阳能板回收处理费分十年缴交对108年以后对\n\n00:57.659 --> 01:26.039\n那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理\n\n01:27.590 --> 01:52.848\n包圍沒有這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費對這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能\n\n01:54.279 --> 02:16.193\n是的就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣\n\n02:18.808 --> 02:31.858\n其實我這個簡報上就是因為在這個1000元每千瓦1000元的這個設計上我們其實他當然主要原先設計是說支應回收技術研發然後輔導處理設廠\n\n02:36.448 --> 02:59.759\n福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災天災意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮\n\n03:00.973 --> 03:27.682\n要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限\n\n03:28.983 --> 03:42.862\n這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助\n\n03:45.305 --> 04:02.163\n其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的\n\n04:03.084 --> 04:26.626\n那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況\n\n04:27.947 --> 04:56.201\n那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗\n\n04:57.203 --> 05:08.010\n為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害\n\n05:09.337 --> 05:28.985\n對我舉一個苗栗這家他是老闆很認真他會用想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收那桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說那個廢棄的這個\n\n05:32.106 --> 05:48.401\n太陽能板的有價值的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厲害了但是我們來看一下說它的分佈問題有沒有區域壟斷的問題\n\n05:50.075 --> 06:03.107\n的確現在這次因為在桃園或是苗栗他從嘉義運上去那個運輸的成本就很貴所以我們就一直考慮到說中南部應該一定要有才會解決這個問題以後如果還有\n\n06:04.300 --> 06:30.151\n這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸\n\n06:32.412 --> 06:50.922\n成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠\n\n06:52.023 --> 07:18.340\n那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天\n\n07:19.461 --> 07:46.664\n點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況\n\n07:48.859 --> 08:11.330\n這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題\n\n08:13.434 --> 08:41.049\n我不太明白你說的其他的成本還有例如像什麼就是那個處理廠商他可能有兩個收入嘛一個就是我們那個循環署以後給他一個補貼的錢另外一個呢他就是說他會再跟那個對方收一筆錢嘛那麼這兩筆錢裡面我們不可能讓他同時存在我們一定是取裡面的譬如說我們給他定額那超過的部分那他就不會再接受我們的那個補貼\n\n08:43.487 --> 09:08.460\n我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解\n\n09:08.860 --> 09:29.692\n但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的\n\n09:32.093 --> 09:57.006\n投入龐大的资金如果说没有办法拿到这个D2528的资格等于说他们前面的投资都是白花了因此呢我们台湾就没有办法导入国外先进的这些回收技术也就没有办法就落实这个循环经济这件事情我想请教部长就是说光电板明明它不是一般的废弃物为什么要先取得加以及废弃物处理许可厂商\n\n10:00.372 --> 10:11.067\n我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦至於說如何減少它的負擔我們可以來想辦法\n\n10:13.755 --> 10:41.446\n是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資\n\n10:42.006 --> 10:56.840\n對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議\n\n10:58.277 --> 11:18.805\n不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣是非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時\n\n11:25.587 --> 11:51.356\n也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間\n\n11:52.768 --> 12:20.391\n可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告\n\n12:21.257 --> 12:29.129\n好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝晨英委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.794,"end":32.823,"text":"麻煩請部長請彭部長曾委員好部長好這次7月的丹納斯風災造成許多光電板的損害那因此我想也是很好的機會讓我們來思考一下目前台灣光電板的回收跟現況的問題"},{"start":35.894,"end":56.75,"text":"我想首先就我们讨论一下这个回收费用预缴的问题这个目前的规定是不是在建制太阳能板太阳能光电厂业者必须在建制的时候缴交每千瓦一千元的这个太阳能板回收处理费分十年缴交对108年以后对"},{"start":57.659,"end":86.039,"text":"那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理"},{"start":87.59,"end":112.848,"text":"包圍沒有 這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好 所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費對 這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能"},{"start":114.279,"end":136.193,"text":"是的 就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有 就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣"},{"start":138.808,"end":151.858,"text":"其實我這個簡報上就是因為在這個1000元每千瓦1000元的這個設計上我們其實他當然主要原先設計是說支應回收技術研發然後輔導處理設廠"},{"start":156.448,"end":179.759,"text":"福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災天災意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮"},{"start":180.973,"end":207.682,"text":"要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限"},{"start":208.983,"end":222.862,"text":"這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助"},{"start":225.305,"end":242.163,"text":"其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的"},{"start":243.084,"end":266.626,"text":"那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況"},{"start":267.947,"end":296.201,"text":"那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗"},{"start":297.203,"end":308.01,"text":"為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害"},{"start":309.337,"end":328.985,"text":"對 我舉一個苗栗這家他是老闆很認真他會用想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收那桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說那個廢棄的這個"},{"start":332.106,"end":348.401,"text":"太陽能板的有價值的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厲害了但是我們來看一下說它的分佈問題有沒有區域壟斷的問題"},{"start":350.075,"end":363.107,"text":"的確現在這次因為在桃園或是苗栗他從嘉義運上去那個運輸的成本就很貴所以我們就一直考慮到說中南部應該一定要有才會解決這個問題以後如果還有"},{"start":364.3,"end":390.151,"text":"這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸"},{"start":392.412,"end":410.922,"text":"成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠"},{"start":412.023,"end":438.34,"text":"那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天"},{"start":439.461,"end":466.664,"text":"點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況"},{"start":468.859,"end":491.33,"text":"這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是 跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題"},{"start":493.434,"end":521.049,"text":"我不太明白你說的其他的成本還有例如像什麼就是那個處理廠商他可能有兩個收入嘛一個就是我們那個循環署以後給他一個補貼的錢另外一個呢他就是說他會再跟那個對方收一筆錢嘛那麼這兩筆錢裡面我們不可能讓他同時存在我們一定是取裡面的譬如說我們給他定額那超過的部分那他就不會再接受我們的那個補貼"},{"start":523.487,"end":548.46,"text":"我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解"},{"start":548.86,"end":569.692,"text":"但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的"},{"start":572.093,"end":597.006,"text":"投入龐大的资金如果说没有办法拿到这个D2528的资格等于说他们前面的投资都是白花了因此呢我们台湾就没有办法导入国外先进的这些回收技术也就没有办法就落实这个循环经济这件事情我想请教部长就是说光电板明明它不是一般的废弃物为什么要先取得加以及废弃物处理许可厂商"},{"start":600.372,"end":611.067,"text":"我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦至於說如何減少它的負擔我們可以來想辦法"},{"start":613.755,"end":641.446,"text":"是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資"},{"start":642.006,"end":656.84,"text":"對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議"},{"start":658.277,"end":678.805,"text":"不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣是非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時"},{"start":685.587,"end":711.356,"text":"也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間"},{"start":712.768,"end":740.391,"text":"可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告"},{"start":741.257,"end":749.129,"text":"好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝晨英委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1359,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時56分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。這一次7月的丹娜絲風災，造成許多光電板的損害，我想這也是很好的機會，讓我們來思考一下目前臺灣光電板回收跟現況的問題，首先，我們討論一下回收費用預繳的問題，按照目前的規定，在建置太陽能光電廠時，業者必須在建置的時候，繳交每瓩1,000元的太陽能板回收處理費，分10年繳交。"],["彭部長啓明：對，108年以後，對。"],["陳委員瑩：理論上這筆錢是先交由能源署保管，等到設備用滿20年之後，真的要退役的時候，政府再負責出錢請回收場清運處理，但問題是，一旦光電板不到20年就損壞了，例如說，像這一次的颱風損害，環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的回收費用來處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有，這一次是他們自己的損壞，所以當成一般廢棄物來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：好。所以之前繳的費用在清運之後也不能申請退費？"],["彭部長啓明：對。我們現在跟能源署有討論一個方案，這個問題是不是能源署來回答？就是說，基本上這是兩個事情，未來可以有一個扣抵的功能。"],["李署長君禮：是的，就是部長剛剛講的，那個是要20年到，就是除役的時候來處理，目前災害損害的錢是由他們自己負責。"],["陳委員瑩：這個我們明白啊，我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的。"],["李署長君禮：目前我們回收的機制是這樣。"],["陳委員瑩：好。這個每瓩1,000元的設計，原先設計是要支應回收技術研發，然後輔導處理廠設立的費用，原先的設計是這樣，所以其實在這1,000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災、天災意外這件事情的，所以我想，你們未來有沒有考慮要加入這些因素，考量做一些調整？這個只是順道帶上。以實際的情況來看，這個受災的業者除了設備損失之外，還要自掏腰包處理報廢的光電板，但他們的保險理賠往往非常有限，讓有些災損的業者真的是血本無歸，換句話說，政府先收了錢，但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何補助。其實我在準備這次質詢的時候，會一直想到我們臺東這次釋迦保險、農損的概念，就是種釋迦的農民遇到風災有農損的補助，但是種電的業者遇到風災受到損害是沒有補助的。對業者來說，我們有聽到一些哀號，就是造成他們兩頭賠的情況，這個確實也是今年風災過後業者反映負擔沉重的主要原因之一，我想部長應該也都理解這樣的狀況。","我們來談一下處理的問題。請問部長，目前全臺有幾家擁有政府核發光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商？"],["彭部長啓明：4家甲級，2家乙級。"],["陳委員瑩：所以總共6家嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，6家。"],["陳委員瑩：抱歉，我只有找到5家。這6家是分散在不同的縣市，但主要還是以桃園及苗栗為主，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：我想請教一下，這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術，處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害的？"],["彭部長啓明：我舉苗栗這家，老闆很認真，會想一些方法，不過他的回收率到92%，有一些還是沒辦法回收。桃園那家的投資金額比較大，那個機器完全可以自動去做處理，可以回收到99%。所以基本上，每一家的處理方式有點不一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：你說的回收到99%是指廢棄的太陽能板……"],["彭部長啓明：對，最後再回收廢棄物的比率。"],["陳委員瑩：有價值的部分可以回收到……"],["彭部長啓明：99%。"],["陳委員瑩：99%？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：那就真的很厲害了。但是我們來看一下，它的分布有沒有區域壟斷的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：的確這一次因為在桃園或苗栗從嘉義運上去，運輸的成本就很貴，所以我們一直考慮中南部一定要有，才會解決這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：對，以後如果還有南部、東部運上去又更貴了。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：光電板因為颱風造成天災而受損，已經變成無價廢板的時候，政府不動用預收的回收資金，而是要業者自行負擔清運及回收的費用，各地的業者幾乎只能找當地那家處理場，剛剛講運輸成本費用比較高，談判的空間當然相對也就變小了。相反地，當光電板仍然可以運作、仍有二手貨材料價值的時候，卻被我們政府要求只能交給特定的幾家處理場，這些處理廠商收下仍有價值的板子之後，不但可以變賣材料，也可以轉售、再利用，還可以再向政府申請處理的補貼，每公斤大概10到16元，等於同時可以取得有價資產及回收費用，實際上他們是兩頭賺。我今天點出這個，不是要打擊他們，我只是要做一個比較，一個是兩頭的損失，一個是兩頭賺很多。我想要請教部長，這樣的結果變成光電板業者出錢，政府也出錢，處理場就等於在回收獲利，這樣是不是一個很合理的狀況？"],["彭部長啓明：這個問題請副署長說明。"],["林副署長健三：跟委員報告一下，我們以後真的有補貼的話，也是定額補貼，定額補助的意思是，不是處理費譬如一噸4萬5,000塊，政府就補助4萬5,000塊，不是這個意思，而是按照它的成本補助2萬塊，其他的成本要它自己去吸收，這樣就不會導致兩邊賺的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：我不太明白你說的「其他的成本」，還有例如像什麼？"],["林副署長健三：就是處理廠商可能有兩個收入，一個是循環署以後給它補貼的錢，另外一個是它會再跟對方收一筆錢，我們不可能讓這兩筆錢同時存在，一定是取裡面譬如我們給它的定額，超過的部分，它就不會再接受我們的補貼。"],["陳委員瑩：我看你找機會好好算一下，再試算一下給我們看。"],["林副署長健三：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我今天特別點出這樣的問題，看來你們已經有發現到了。"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["陳委員瑩：好。最後，專業的回收企業很難投入臺灣的市場，很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的，我相信你們都了解，但是它不敢投入這塊市場，是因為在臺設廠之後必須先投入數千萬、甚至上億元的資金來建廠，建好之後還要再取得甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可，取得之後還要再申請D-2528的光電板處理許可。對外資而言，這個風險是相當高的，投入龐大的資金，如果沒有辦法拿到D-2528的資格，等於他們前面的投資都是白花了，因此臺灣就沒有辦法導入國外先進的回收技術，也就沒有辦法落實循環經濟這件事情。我想請教部長，光電板明明不是一般的廢棄物，為什麼廠商要先取得甲、乙級廢棄物處理許可的資格？"],["彭部長啓明：我們歡迎國際上任何更好的技術，如果又可以減少環境的負荷，我們都是歡迎的。至於如何減少它的負擔，我們可以來想辦法。"],["林副署長健三：現在這6家的身分可能是乙級或甲級，沒有錯，就像委員所講的，它必須取得設置許可、操作許可、甚至於環境影響評估，日後我們會修法，修法以後它就變成應回收廢棄物，它成為應回收廢棄物的時候，我們會容許再利用機構……在循環經濟裡面，我們對於再利用機構的資格限定，在不違背相關環保條件下，會比較放鬆，這樣可以吸收廠商來做投資。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個部分你們要趕快解套才好。光電科技本來是一門進步很快、未來仍會持續發展的產業，所以本席要在這裡強烈建議，不能把損壞或堪用的光電板當成一般廢棄物來處理，而要當成一種資源，資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物。我們臺灣非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收制度，在設立專法簡化專業光電回收業者進入門檻的同時，也要請你們檢討回收基金的合理使用，從循環經濟的角度提升臺灣光電板回收技術及效率，讓這個市場變得更透明、價格更合理，才能落實綠能的循環經濟。部長，不知道對本席的建議環境部可不可以做評估？大概多久時間可以評估完成？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，委員講的開放、透明，我們都非常贊成，甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來，臺灣的業者也可以做國際的事情，這些都是我們希望循環經濟要的。至於連結到後面未來收費的財務模型機制，委員，是不是在年底之前，我們跟能源署之間有一個合作的平臺，討論完、有一個比較好的方案之後，再跟委員報告？"],["陳委員瑩：好，大概也就兩個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：對，年底。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員發言。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束。委員盧縣一、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請環境部說明：","近期社會輿論高度爭議之高雄鳳山水庫、烏山頭水庫光電板設置問題：為什麼過程未經過環境影響評估？設置光電板是否會影響當地水質環境？如果受颱風地震災害毀損，是否也不至於造成污染？由誰負責清除善後？因鳳山水庫等地集水區已被列為重要濕地，是一級保育類動物遊隼與白尾海雕的棲息地。"],["委員徐欣瑩書面質詢：","「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討」專題報告書面質詢","緣起：鑑於近年來政府大力推動水面式（浮動式）光電板（Floating Solar）作為綠能發展的解決方案，然而，此項技術在推行過程中，卻因缺乏環境影響評估（環評）的有效把關，以及極端氣候下抗風標準與結構設計的不足，導致水質安全疑慮、水域生態衝擊、光電板受損致災等重大問題。這不僅衝擊了民眾對水域安全的信任，也暴露出現行光電政策缺乏「氣候韌性」的基礎工程。","本席要求環境部與經濟部應正視問題核心，具體檢討並提出改進方案，以重建民眾對綠能政策的信任與確保環境永續。","問題一：水面型光電板的環境風險與「環評豁免權」","水面式光電板被視為解決臺灣土地資源限制的方案。現行法規對水庫、湖泊、埤塘等水面型浮動式光電板仍不需實施環境影響評估（環評），形同擁有「環評豁免權」。儘管環境部已修正發布《開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準》，增訂了特定環境敏感區位（如國家公園、野生動物保護區等）須實施環評，但對水面型光電板的網開一面。","最新研究已指出，水面高覆蓋率可能導致溫室氣體（如甲烷、二氧化碳）排放增加及水中溶氧量大幅下降，嚴重衝擊水域生態。更關鍵的是，對於光電模組長期放置於水面中是否會釋放有毒物質，目前仍缺乏確切且強力的研究證實，像新竹縣新豐、湖口有9口灌溉蓄水池，民眾有最直接的觀感就是：池水似乎變得比較綠，使得民眾對水質安全的深層焦慮難以消除。","待改進之處","．落實光電設施長期環境風險的科學論證：政府應投入資源進行長期、獨立且具公信力的研究，以確切證實光電模組長期置於水中是否會釋放有毒物質，並對水域生態（如溶氧量下降、溫室氣體增加）的衝擊提出具體量化數據與應對措施。對於既有案場，應要求設置水質檢測裝置，並將檢測結果持續公開上網，以透明化資訊重建民眾對水質安全的信任。","．檢討水面型光電的「環評豁免權」：環境部應重新檢視《開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準》，針對水庫、湖泊、埤塘等水面型浮動式光電板，根據其設置規模、水域生態敏感度及水資源功能（如灌溉、飲用水源），研議新增或調整其環評門檻，將其納入環評機制進行環境衝擊的源頭控管。","問題二：極端氣候下的「制度失守」與光電設施的抗災韌性不足","丹娜絲颱風重創南台灣，導致光電板逾10萬片受損，其中以水上型光電板災情最為嚴重，突顯了水面型光電設施在極端氣候下的韌性不足。儘管經濟部能源署要求電業於申請施工許可時應提送有技師簽證的結構計算書，但現實是：","．缺乏具法律強制性的明確抗風標準：現行的《滯（蓄）洪池設置太陽光電審定原則》並未訂出明確的抗風標準，也缺乏法律強制性。雖然能源署表示未來將把耐風強度從14級提升至17級，但目前規範的缺失，使得業者在設計時容易因「安全係數設定過低」或「錨定數量不足」而導致問題。","．專業設計缺乏標準依據：結構技師在設計水面太陽光電系統時，因缺乏合適的「風力係數」（Cf）可供參考，可能導致風力估算產生明顯誤差，造成設計寬鬆不一。","待改進之處","．建立具法律強制性的抗風標準與錨定規範：經濟部應加速修訂《滯（蓄）洪池設置太陽光電審定原則》，新增具法律強制性的明確「抗風標準」與「錨定數量規範」，以避免業者為節省成本而降低安全係數與錨定數量。並應參照離岸風機的抗颱標準（如Class T可抵禦17級風），作為光電設施的依循標準。"],["主席：現在作以下決定及決議：一、報告、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、噪音管制法部分條文修正草案等九案另擇期繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（14時10分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}}