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353.935, \"end\": 354.395, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 354.395, \"end\": 354.555, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 354.555, \"end\": 354.816, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 354.816, \"end\": 354.936, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 354.936, \"end\": 355.096, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 355.096, \"end\": 355.216, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 355.216, \"end\": 355.416, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 355.416, \"end\": 355.556, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 355.556, \"end\": 355.656, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 355.656, \"end\": 355.857, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 355.857, \"end\": 356.037, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 356.037, \"end\": 356.157, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 356.157, \"end\": 356.397, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 356.397, \"end\": 356.477, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 356.477, \"end\": 356.737, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 356.737, \"end\": 356.957, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 356.957, \"end\": 357.138, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 357.138, \"end\": 358.179, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 358.179, \"end\": 358.519, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 358.519, \"end\": 358.699, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 358.699, \"end\": 358.779, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 358.779, \"end\": 358.879, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 358.879, \"end\": 359.259, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 359.259, \"end\": 359.66, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 359.66, \"end\": 359.78, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 359.78, \"end\": 359.94, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 359.94, \"end\": 360.2, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 360.2, \"end\": 360.32, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 360.32, \"end\": 360.42, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 360.42, \"end\": 360.921, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 360.921, \"end\": 361.922, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 361.922, \"end\": 362.082, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 362.082, \"end\": 362.262, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 362.262, \"end\": 362.502, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 362.502, \"end\": 362.722, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 362.722, \"end\": 362.943, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 362.943, \"end\": 363.143, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 363.143, \"end\": 363.283, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 363.283, \"end\": 363.483, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 363.483, \"end\": 363.703, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 363.703, \"end\": 363.883, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 363.883, \"end\": 364.103, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 364.103, \"end\": 364.364, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 364.364, \"end\": 364.904, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 364.904, \"end\": 365.044, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 365.044, \"end\": 366.505, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 366.505, \"end\": 366.866, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 366.866, \"end\": 367.006, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 367.006, \"end\": 367.166, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 367.166, \"end\": 367.366, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 367.366, \"end\": 367.747, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 367.747, \"end\": 368.807, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 368.807, \"end\": 369.068, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 369.068, \"end\": 369.328, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 369.328, \"end\": 369.708, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 369.708, \"end\": 370.068, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 370.068, \"end\": 371.089, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 371.089, \"end\": 371.49, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 371.49, \"end\": 371.71, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 371.71, \"end\": 371.85, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 371.85, \"end\": 372.791, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 372.791, \"end\": 373.071, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 373.071, \"end\": 373.371, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 373.371, \"end\": 373.531, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 373.531, \"end\": 374.172, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 374.172, \"end\": 374.412, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 374.412, \"end\": 374.632, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 374.632, \"end\": 374.913, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 374.913, \"end\": 375.973, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 375.973, \"end\": 376.214, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 376.214, \"end\": 376.394, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 376.394, \"end\": 376.854, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"蓋\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 376.854, \"end\": 377.355, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 377.355, \"end\": 377.735, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 377.735, \"end\": 377.995, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 377.995, \"end\": 378.355, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 378.355, \"end\": 378.375, \"score\": 0.003}]}, {\"start\": 379.156, \"end\": 399.903, \"text\": \"我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 379.156, \"end\": 379.256, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 379.256, \"end\": 379.356, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 379.356, \"end\": 379.436, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 379.436, \"end\": 379.616, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 379.616, \"end\": 379.976, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 379.976, \"end\": 380.376, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 380.376, \"end\": 380.617, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 380.617, \"end\": 380.797, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.797, \"end\": 380.897, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 380.897, \"end\": 381.097, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 381.097, \"end\": 381.257, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 381.257, \"end\": 381.477, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 381.477, \"end\": 381.757, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 381.757, \"end\": 382.517, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 382.517, \"end\": 382.837, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 382.837, \"end\": 383.137, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 383.137, \"end\": 383.358, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 383.358, 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388.179, \"end\": 388.739, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 388.739, \"end\": 390.04, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"暫\"}, {\"word\": \"緩\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 390.04, \"end\": 390.18, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 390.18, \"end\": 390.36, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 390.36, \"end\": 390.6, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 390.6, \"end\": 391.06, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 391.06, \"end\": 391.24, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"抗\", \"start\": 391.24, \"end\": 391.7, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 391.7, \"end\": 391.901, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 391.901, \"end\": 392.081, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"喊\", \"start\": 392.081, \"end\": 392.381, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 392.381, \"end\": 393.041, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 393.041, \"end\": 393.241, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 393.241, \"end\": 393.401, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 393.401, \"end\": 393.921, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 393.921, \"end\": 395.442, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 395.442, \"end\": 395.642, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 395.642, \"end\": 395.782, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"跑\", \"start\": 395.782, \"end\": 396.042, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 396.042, \"end\": 396.222, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 396.222, \"end\": 396.882, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 396.882, \"end\": 397.062, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 397.062, \"end\": 397.222, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 397.222, \"end\": 397.803, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 397.803, \"end\": 398.023, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"潭\", \"start\": 398.023, \"end\": 398.263, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 398.263, \"end\": 399.163, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 399.163, \"end\": 399.503, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"潭\", \"start\": 399.503, \"end\": 399.743, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 399.743, \"end\": 399.883, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 399.883, \"end\": 399.903, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 401.864, \"end\": 415.04, \"text\": \"涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 401.864, \"end\": 402.064, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 402.064, \"end\": 402.185, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 402.185, \"end\": 402.385, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 402.385, \"end\": 402.745, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 402.745, \"end\": 402.986, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 402.986, \"end\": 403.206, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 403.206, \"end\": 403.726, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 403.726, \"end\": 404.107, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 404.107, \"end\": 405.529, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 405.529, \"end\": 405.789, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 405.789, \"end\": 406.009, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 406.009, \"end\": 406.31, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 406.31, \"end\": 406.59, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 406.59, \"end\": 407.07, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 407.07, \"end\": 407.611, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 407.611, \"end\": 408.352, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 408.352, \"end\": 408.632, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 408.632, \"end\": 408.993, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 408.993, \"end\": 410.054, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 410.054, \"end\": 410.455, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 410.455, \"end\": 411.035, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"彈\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 411.035, \"end\": 411.816, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 411.816, \"end\": 411.976, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 411.976, \"end\": 412.077, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 412.077, \"end\": 412.297, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 412.297, \"end\": 412.517, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 412.517, \"end\": 412.737, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 412.737, \"end\": 413.058, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 413.058, \"end\": 413.618, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"蓋\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 413.618, \"end\": 414.059, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 414.059, \"end\": 414.299, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 414.299, \"end\": 414.82, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 414.82, \"end\": 414.94, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 414.94, \"end\": 415.02, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 415.02, \"end\": 415.04, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 417.583, \"end\": 434.006, \"text\": \"那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 417.583, \"end\": 418.204, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 418.204, \"end\": 418.625, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, 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\"text\": \"我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1014.116, \"end\": 1014.296, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1014.296, \"end\": 1014.496, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1014.496, \"end\": 1014.656, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1014.656, \"end\": 1014.796, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"瑞\", \"start\": 1014.796, \"end\": 1015.037, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"士\", \"start\": 1015.037, \"end\": 1015.197, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1015.197, \"end\": 1015.917, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1015.917, \"end\": 1016.137, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1016.137, \"end\": 1016.257, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1016.257, \"end\": 1016.637, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1035.408, \"end\": 1035.548, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1035.548, \"end\": 1036.168, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1036.168, \"end\": 1036.489, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"董\", \"start\": 1036.489, \"end\": 1036.669, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1036.669, \"end\": 1036.949, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1036.949, \"end\": 1037.149, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1037.149, \"end\": 1037.869, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1037.869, \"end\": 1038.009, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1038.009, \"end\": 1038.11, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1038.11, \"end\": 1038.51, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"贊\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1038.51, \"end\": 1039.31, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1039.31, \"end\": 1039.57, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1039.57, \"end\": 1039.831, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1039.831, \"end\": 1039.931, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1039.931, \"end\": 1040.051, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1040.051, \"end\": 1040.291, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1040.291, \"end\": 1040.311, \"score\": 0.087}]}, {\"start\": 1040.791, \"end\": 1067.174, \"text\": \"他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員 寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦 講電話啦 聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1040.791, \"end\": 1041.091, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1041.091, \"end\": 1041.231, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1041.231, \"end\": 1042.052, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1042.052, 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{\"word\": \"音\", \"start\": 1059.187, \"end\": 1059.647, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"樂\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1059.647, \"end\": 1059.727, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1059.727, \"end\": 1059.827, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"吵\", \"start\": 1059.827, \"end\": 1059.968, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1059.968, \"end\": 1060.128, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 1060.128, \"end\": 1060.288, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1060.288, \"end\": 1060.668, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1060.668, \"end\": 1061.149, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1061.149, \"end\": 1061.249, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1061.249, \"end\": 1062.95, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"嬰\"}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"嬰\"}, {\"word\": \"幼\", \"start\": 1062.95, \"end\": 1063.35, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1063.35, \"end\": 1063.651, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"聲\"}, {\"word\": \"音\", \"start\": 1063.651, \"end\": 1064.391, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1064.391, \"end\": 1064.551, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 1064.551, \"end\": 1064.692, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 1064.692, \"end\": 1065.072, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1065.072, \"end\": 1065.612, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1065.612, \"end\": 1065.853, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1065.853, \"end\": 1066.153, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1066.153, \"end\": 1066.293, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1066.293, \"end\": 1066.553, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1066.553, \"end\": 1066.813, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1066.813, \"end\": 1067.154, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1067.154, \"end\": 1067.174, \"score\": 0.885}]}, {\"start\": 1067.728, \"end\": 1084.093, \"text\": \"那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1067.728, \"end\": 1067.948, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1067.948, \"end\": 1069.028, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 1069.028, \"end\": 1069.148, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1069.148, \"end\": 1069.529, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1069.529, \"end\": 1069.889, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"廂\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 1069.889, \"end\": 1069.989, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 1069.989, \"end\": 1071.449, 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1074.51, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1074.51, \"end\": 1074.61, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"牽\"}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 1074.61, \"end\": 1074.75, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1074.75, \"end\": 1075.95, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"廂\"}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1075.95, \"end\": 1076.07, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 1076.07, \"end\": 1077.011, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1077.011, \"end\": 1077.231, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1077.231, \"end\": 1077.331, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1077.331, \"end\": 1078.531, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1078.531, \"end\": 1078.991, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1078.991, \"end\": 1079.131, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1079.131, \"end\": 1080.432, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1080.432, \"end\": 1080.652, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1080.652, \"end\": 1080.772, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1080.772, \"end\": 1080.892, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1080.892, \"end\": 1080.992, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 1080.992, \"end\": 1081.192, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 1081.192, \"end\": 1081.572, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1081.572, \"end\": 1081.712, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1081.712, \"end\": 1081.972, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1081.972, \"end\": 1082.312, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1082.312, \"end\": 1082.452, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1082.452, \"end\": 1082.572, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1082.572, \"end\": 1082.892, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1082.892, \"end\": 1083.173, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1083.173, \"end\": 1083.493, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1083.493, \"end\": 1083.833, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"溝\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 1083.833, \"end\": 1083.993, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1083.993, \"end\": 1084.073, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1084.073, \"end\": 1084.093, \"score\": 0.181}]}, {\"start\": 1085.496, \"end\": 1105.466, \"text\": \"其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1085.496, \"end\": 1085.716, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1085.716, \"end\": 1086.837, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 1096.061, \"end\": 1096.241, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1096.241, \"end\": 1096.522, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1096.522, \"end\": 1096.942, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 1096.942, \"end\": 1097.622, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1097.622, \"end\": 1098.242, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1098.242, \"end\": 1098.823, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1098.823, \"end\": 1098.963, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1098.963, \"end\": 1099.083, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1099.083, \"end\": 1099.243, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1099.243, \"end\": 1099.303, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1099.303, \"end\": 1100.123, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"廂\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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{\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1105.146, \"end\": 1105.226, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1105.226, \"end\": 1105.446, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1105.446, \"end\": 1105.466, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1107.587, \"end\": 1123.781, \"text\": \"不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足 運量不足因為每天都很塞 坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1107.587, \"end\": 1107.848, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1107.848, \"end\": 1108.048, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1108.048, \"end\": 1108.448, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 1108.448, \"end\": 1108.588, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1108.588, \"end\": 1108.788, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1108.788, \"end\": 1109.309, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1109.309, \"end\": 1109.389, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1109.389, \"end\": 1109.709, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1109.709, \"end\": 1109.849, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1109.849, \"end\": 1110.37, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1110.37, \"end\": 1110.63, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1110.63, \"end\": 1110.81, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 1110.81, \"end\": 1111.19, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 1111.19, \"end\": 1111.41, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1111.41, \"end\": 1111.531, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 1111.531, \"end\": 1111.651, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1111.651, \"end\": 1111.831, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 1111.831, \"end\": 1111.991, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1111.991, \"end\": 1112.131, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1112.131, \"end\": 1112.291, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1112.291, \"end\": 1112.551, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"塞\", \"start\": 1112.551, \"end\": 1112.932, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"坦\", \"start\": 1112.932, \"end\": 1113.032, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 1113.032, \"end\": 1114.173, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1114.173, \"end\": 1114.293, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1114.293, \"end\": 1114.453, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1114.453, \"end\": 1114.553, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1114.553, \"end\": 1114.713, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 1114.713, \"end\": 1114.973, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1114.973, \"end\": 1115.634, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"廂\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1115.634, \"end\": 1115.934, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1115.934, \"end\": 1116.415, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1116.415, \"end\": 1116.595, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1116.595, \"end\": 1116.955, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1116.955, \"end\": 1117.115, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1117.115, \"end\": 1117.796, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 1117.796, \"end\": 1117.916, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 1117.916, \"end\": 1118.016, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1118.016, \"end\": 1118.156, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 1118.156, \"end\": 1118.837, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1118.837, \"end\": 1118.977, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1118.977, \"end\": 1119.277, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1119.277, \"end\": 1119.517, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1119.517, \"end\": 1119.737, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1119.737, \"end\": 1119.958, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1119.958, \"end\": 1120.598, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 1120.598, \"end\": 1120.818, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1120.818, \"end\": 1121.559, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1121.559, \"end\": 1121.699, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1121.699, \"end\": 1121.859, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1121.859, \"end\": 1121.959, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1121.959, \"end\": 1122.199, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 1122.199, \"end\": 1122.4, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1122.4, \"end\": 1122.9, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1122.9, \"end\": 1123.16, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"旅\", \"start\": 1123.16, \"end\": 1123.501, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"遊\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 1123.501, \"end\": 1123.761, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1123.761, \"end\": 1123.781, \"score\": 0.921}]}, {\"start\": 1125.442, \"end\": 1153.371, \"text\": \"那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1125.442, \"end\": 1125.562, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1125.562, \"end\": 1125.682, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 1125.682, \"end\": 1125.882, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1125.882, \"end\": 1126.062, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1126.062, \"end\": 1126.542, \"score\": 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1320.997, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1320.997, \"end\": 1321.217, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1321.217, \"end\": 1321.437, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"雖\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1321.437, \"end\": 1321.717, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1321.717, \"end\": 1322.098, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1322.098, \"end\": 1322.978, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"虧\"}, {\"word\": \"損\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1322.978, \"end\": 1323.138, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1323.138, \"end\": 1323.259, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1323.259, \"end\": 1323.419, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 1323.419, \"end\": 1323.579, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1323.579, \"end\": 1323.879, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1323.879, \"end\": 1324.079, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1324.079, \"end\": 1324.299, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1324.299, \"end\": 1324.319, \"score\": 0.242}]}, {\"start\": 1324.98, \"end\": 1351.202, \"text\": \"那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1324.98, \"end\": 1325.52, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1325.52, \"end\": 1325.941, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 1325.941, \"end\": 1326.081, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1326.081, \"end\": 1326.261, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1326.261, \"end\": 1326.481, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1326.481, \"end\": 1326.661, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1326.661, \"end\": 1327.022, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1327.022, 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{\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1346.478, \"end\": 1346.838, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1346.838, \"end\": 1346.998, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1346.998, \"end\": 1347.119, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 1347.119, \"end\": 1347.279, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1347.279, \"end\": 1347.759, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 1347.759, \"end\": 1348.159, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1348.159, \"end\": 1349.16, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1349.16, \"end\": 1349.32, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1349.32, \"end\": 1349.42, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1349.42, \"end\": 1349.521, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1349.521, \"end\": 1349.661, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"政\", 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\"請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1377.668, \"end\": 1378.309, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1378.309, \"end\": 1379.249, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1379.249, \"end\": 1379.45, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1379.45, \"end\": 1380.17, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1380.17, \"end\": 1380.47, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 1380.47, \"end\": 1380.71, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1380.71, \"end\": 1380.951, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1380.951, \"end\": 1382.051, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1382.051, \"end\": 1382.351, 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 1838.772, \"end\": 1839.174, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1839.174, \"end\": 1839.194, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,654 --> 00:00:10,419\n謝謝院長我們現在請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選黃委員好\n\n2\n00:00:22,642 --> 00:00:35,613\n院長好院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了\n\n3\n00:00:36,895 --> 00:00:51,090\n抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025\n\n4\n00:00:52,972 --> 00:01:15,748\n要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW\n\n5\n00:01:17,909 --> 00:01:45,250\n現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴而已\n\n6\n00:01:46,550 --> 00:02:04,585\n全力以赴這個監察院的報告我們也感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回覆的我們也會適當地說院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題\n\n7\n00:02:05,746 --> 00:02:19,705\n其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無\n\n8\n00:02:21,086 --> 00:02:41,747\n有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說漁電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電\n\n9\n00:02:42,888 --> 00:03:07,443\n結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生養的不夠多\n\n10\n00:03:08,403 --> 00:03:22,591\n讓地主來養魚這個問題這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試請部長來說明我跟委員說明\n\n11\n00:03:25,012 --> 00:03:42,242\n那我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面的養魚的這些是由專業的漁卿來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與他的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式現在已經在做在示範了\n\n12\n00:03:42,862 --> 00:04:07,969\n被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準\n\n13\n00:04:10,410 --> 00:04:25,047\n所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大\n\n14\n00:04:25,828 --> 00:04:43,621\n想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電\n\n15\n00:04:44,682 --> 00:05:03,411\n不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題\n\n16\n00:05:05,652 --> 00:05:18,816\n因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部它是一個跨部會的請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題\n\n17\n00:05:22,357 --> 00:05:36,660\n報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院\n\n18\n00:05:51,873 --> 00:06:18,375\n監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情\n\n19\n00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:39,903\n我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有\n\n20\n00:06:41,864 --> 00:06:55,040\n涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止\n\n21\n00:06:57,583 --> 00:07:14,006\n那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全\n\n22\n00:07:15,126 --> 00:07:29,633\n我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到\n\n23\n00:07:30,543 --> 00:07:55,623\n不當的一些清潔用品那如果他也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期他就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上好院長我要給你建議\n\n24\n00:07:56,784 --> 00:08:18,081\n事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水\n\n25\n00:08:19,468 --> 00:08:41,440\n然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長你先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要\n\n26\n00:08:42,561 --> 00:09:04,661\n在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了\n\n27\n00:09:05,382 --> 00:09:31,901\n因為他是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎他連在上面要放伏具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你這是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成\n\n28\n00:09:33,820 --> 00:10:02,510\n這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要\n\n29\n00:10:03,290 --> 00:10:25,672\n沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量\n\n30\n00:10:26,132 --> 00:10:50,984\n我們台灣對於我們水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們台灣就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年\n\n31\n00:10:51,784 --> 00:11:15,306\n也就是他是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明\n\n32\n00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:42,955\n剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他那也違法只能三年不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚\n\n33\n00:11:44,793 --> 00:11:59,510\n一次就是三年啊除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊是什麼是什麼\n\n34\n00:12:02,642 --> 00:12:29,559\n浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告\n\n35\n00:12:31,818 --> 00:12:44,545\n經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的\n\n36\n00:12:46,493 --> 00:13:13,296\n因為他這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板他絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的他是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固他是浮動式的啊他是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法\n\n37\n00:13:14,517 --> 00:13:32,395\n你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已\n\n38\n00:13:32,995 --> 00:14:00,173\n人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎\n\n39\n00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:21,855\n這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面\n\n40\n00:14:22,935 --> 00:14:50,592\n爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重我的建議是這樣子\n\n41\n00:14:51,332 --> 00:15:03,978\n在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討\n\n42\n00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:27,957\n我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三年這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題\n\n43\n00:15:28,897 --> 00:15:43,454\n我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好\n\n44\n00:15:44,235 --> 00:16:00,675\n但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧\n\n45\n00:16:01,576 --> 00:16:26,537\n但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的\n\n46\n00:16:27,017 --> 00:16:53,536\n我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來\n\n47\n00:16:54,116 --> 00:17:20,311\n我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行\n\n48\n00:17:20,791 --> 00:17:47,174\n他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦講電話啦聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位\n\n49\n00:17:47,728 --> 00:18:04,093\n那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下\n\n50\n00:18:05,496 --> 00:18:25,466\n其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事\n\n51\n00:18:27,587 --> 00:18:43,781\n不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足運量不足因為每天都很塞坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的\n\n52\n00:18:45,442 --> 00:19:13,371\n那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善\n\n53\n00:19:13,891 --> 00:19:41,341\n不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見\n\n54\n00:19:42,361 --> 00:20:06,617\n也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高物源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想所以才會有所謂厭痛的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權\n\n55\n00:20:08,098 --> 00:20:37,260\n我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在指定第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐\n\n56\n00:20:38,041 --> 00:20:58,043\n其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長\n\n57\n00:20:58,764 --> 00:21:16,785\n你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起\n\n58\n00:21:18,627 --> 00:21:45,864\n而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美\n\n59\n00:21:47,004 --> 00:22:04,319\n我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法\n\n60\n00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:31,202\n那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理\n\n61\n00:22:32,943 --> 00:22:55,448\n接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推\n\n62\n00:22:57,668 --> 00:23:25,726\n請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導\n\n63\n00:23:26,747 --> 00:23:42,639\n同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題\n\n64\n00:23:47,796 --> 00:24:05,141\n目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續長化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的\n\n65\n00:24:06,621 --> 00:24:21,547\n它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應\n\n66\n00:24:25,368 --> 00:24:37,737\n它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個專責單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部\n\n67\n00:24:40,279 --> 00:25:09,649\n如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了\n\n68\n00:25:10,149 --> 00:25:29,517\n因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個\n\n69\n00:25:31,678 --> 00:25:45,357\n組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛一頭腳痛一腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織\n\n70\n00:25:46,198 --> 00:26:08,307\n跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題像是電子菸的問題加熱菸的問題很多啊疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對三頭六病只有一個人很難啊\n\n71\n00:26:09,648 --> 00:26:18,967\n你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談\n\n72\n00:26:20,414 --> 00:26:39,422\n是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界一個回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設\n\n73\n00:26:40,522 --> 00:27:01,250\n我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康兒童的預防兒童的權益照顧那是什麼樣的成績\n\n74\n00:27:03,106 --> 00:27:24,060\n那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了\n\n75\n00:27:24,921 --> 00:27:48,198\n就是他独立的一个部门他不是在下面他就是一个专责单位所以我希望这个院长可以好好思考另外最后的时间我要问也因应这个问题我有看到行政院在动10月27号有全国的婚姻御宅开始开放申请这是一个好的起点但是我必须坦白讲这个户数太少了\n\n76\n00:27:48,818 --> 00:28:07,770\n然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的\n\n77\n00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:33,788\n他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後\n\n78\n00:28:35,948 --> 00:28:55,419\n謝謝委員這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為它基本上它還是涉宅的成分它還是涉宅的性質所以它有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演過程\n\n79\n00:28:56,827 --> 00:29:22,146\n我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問了一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣什麼時候要比照南韓\n\n80\n00:29:22,887 --> 00:29:49,198\n可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想迎南海不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門\n\n81\n00:29:49,818 --> 00:30:04,575\n我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠\n\n82\n00:30:05,696 --> 00:30:30,079\n現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好謝謝好謝謝王玉敏委員質詢謝謝卓院長各相關部會首長備詢謝謝\n\n83\n00:30:35,015 --> 00:30:39,194\n我們現在休息十分鐘第一階段謝謝吳宗憲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6654\t10419\t謝謝院長我們現在請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選黃委員好\n22642\t35613\t院長好 院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了\n36895\t51090\t抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025\n52972\t75748\t要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW\n77909\t105250\t現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴而已\n106550\t124585\t全力以赴這個監察院的報告我們也感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回覆的我們也會適當地說院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題\n125746\t139705\t其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無\n141086\t161747\t有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說漁電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電\n162888\t187443\t結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好 謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生 養的不夠多\n188403\t202591\t讓地主來養魚這個問題 這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試 請部長來說明我跟委員說明\n205012\t222242\t那我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面的養魚的這些是由專業的漁卿來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與他的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式現在已經在做在示範了\n222862\t247969\t被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準\n250410\t265047\t所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大\n265828\t283621\t想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電\n284682\t303411\t不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題\n305652\t318816\t因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部它是一個跨部會的請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題\n322357\t336660\t報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院\n351873\t378375\t監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情\n379156\t399903\t我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有\n401864\t415040\t涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止\n417583\t434006\t那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全\n435126\t449633\t我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到\n450543\t475623\t不當的一些清潔用品那如果他也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期他就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上好 院長我要給你建議\n476784\t498081\t事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水\n499468\t521440\t然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長你先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要\n522561\t544661\t在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了\n545382\t571901\t因為他是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎他連在上面要放伏具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你這是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成\n573820\t602510\t這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要\n603290\t625672\t沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量\n626132\t650984\t我們台灣對於我們水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們台灣就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年\n651784\t675306\t也就是他是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明\n677320\t702955\t剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他 那也違法只能三年 不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚\n704793\t719510\t一次就是三年啊 除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊 是什麼是什麼\n722642\t749559\t浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告\n751818\t764545\t經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的\n766493\t793296\t因為他這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板他絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的他是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固他是浮動式的啊他是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法\n794517\t812395\t你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已\n812995\t840173\t人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎\n843476\t861855\t這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面\n862935\t890592\t爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重我的建議是這樣子\n891332\t903978\t在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討\n906310\t927957\t我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三年這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題\n928897\t943454\t我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好\n944235\t960675\t但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧\n961576\t986537\t但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的\n987017\t1013536\t我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來\n1014116\t1040311\t我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行\n1040791\t1067174\t他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員 寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦 講電話啦 聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位\n1067728\t1084093\t那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下\n1085496\t1105466\t其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事\n1107587\t1123781\t不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足 運量不足因為每天都很塞 坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的\n1125442\t1153371\t那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善\n1153891\t1181341\t不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見\n1182361\t1206617\t也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高物源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想所以才會有所謂厭痛的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權\n1208098\t1237260\t我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在指定第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐\n1238041\t1258043\t其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長\n1258764\t1276785\t你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起\n1278627\t1305864\t而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美\n1307004\t1324319\t我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法\n1324980\t1351202\t那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理\n1352943\t1375448\t接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有 已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推\n1377668\t1405726\t請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導\n1406747\t1422639\t同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題\n1427796\t1445141\t目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續長化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的\n1446621\t1461547\t它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應\n1465368\t1477737\t它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個專責單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部\n1480279\t1509649\t如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了\n1510149\t1529517\t因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個\n1531678\t1545357\t組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛一頭腳痛一腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織\n1546198\t1568307\t跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題像是電子菸的問題加熱菸的問題很多啊疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對三頭六病只有一個人很難啊\n1569648\t1578967\t你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談\n1580414\t1599422\t是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界一個回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設\n1600522\t1621250\t我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康 兒童的預防 兒童的權益照顧那是什麼樣的成績\n1623106\t1644060\t那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了\n1644921\t1668198\t就是他独立的一个部门他不是在下面他就是一个专责单位所以我希望这个院长可以好好思考另外最后的时间我要问也因应这个问题我有看到行政院在动10月27号有全国的婚姻御宅开始开放申请这是一个好的起点但是我必须坦白讲这个户数太少了\n1668818\t1687770\t然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的\n1688430\t1713788\t他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後\n1715948\t1735419\t謝謝委員 這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為它基本上它還是涉宅的成分它還是涉宅的性質所以它有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演過程\n1736827\t1762146\t我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問了一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣什麼時候要比照南韓\n1762887\t1789198\t可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想迎南海不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門\n1789818\t1804575\t我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠\n1805696\t1830079\t現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝\n1835015\t1839194\t我們現在休息十分鐘第一階段謝謝吳宗憲委員\n","txt":"謝謝院長我們現在請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選黃委員好\n院長好 院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了\n抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025\n要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW\n現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴而已\n全力以赴這個監察院的報告我們也感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回覆的我們也會適當地說院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題\n其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無\n有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說漁電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電\n結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好 謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生 養的不夠多\n讓地主來養魚這個問題 這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試 請部長來說明我跟委員說明\n那我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面的養魚的這些是由專業的漁卿來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與他的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式現在已經在做在示範了\n被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準\n所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大\n想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電\n不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題\n因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部它是一個跨部會的請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題\n報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院\n監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情\n我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有\n涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止\n那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全\n我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到\n不當的一些清潔用品那如果他也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期他就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上好 院長我要給你建議\n事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水\n然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長你先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要\n在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了\n因為他是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎他連在上面要放伏具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你這是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成\n這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要\n沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量\n我們台灣對於我們水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們台灣就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年\n也就是他是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明\n剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他 那也違法只能三年 不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚\n一次就是三年啊 除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊 是什麼是什麼\n浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告\n經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的\n因為他這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板他絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的他是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固他是浮動式的啊他是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法\n你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已\n人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎\n這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面\n爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重我的建議是這樣子\n在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討\n我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三年這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題\n我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好\n但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧\n但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的\n我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來\n我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行\n他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員 寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦 講電話啦 聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位\n那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下\n其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事\n不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足 運量不足因為每天都很塞 坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的\n那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善\n不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見\n也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高物源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想所以才會有所謂厭痛的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權\n我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在指定第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐\n其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長\n你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起\n而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美\n我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法\n那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理\n接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有 已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推\n請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導\n同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題\n目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續長化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的\n它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應\n它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個專責單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部\n如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了\n因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個\n組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛一頭腳痛一腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織\n跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題像是電子菸的問題加熱菸的問題很多啊疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對三頭六病只有一個人很難啊\n你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談\n是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界一個回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設\n我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康 兒童的預防 兒童的權益照顧那是什麼樣的成績\n那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了\n就是他独立的一个部门他不是在下面他就是一个专责单位所以我希望这个院长可以好好思考另外最后的时间我要问也因应这个问题我有看到行政院在动10月27号有全国的婚姻御宅开始开放申请这是一个好的起点但是我必须坦白讲这个户数太少了\n然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的\n他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後\n謝謝委員 這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為它基本上它還是涉宅的成分它還是涉宅的性質所以它有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演過程\n我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問了一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣什麼時候要比照南韓\n可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想迎南海不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門\n我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠\n現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝\n我們現在休息十分鐘第一階段謝謝吳宗憲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.654 --> 00:10.419\n謝謝院長我們現在請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選黃委員好\n\n00:22.642 --> 00:35.613\n院長好院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了\n\n00:36.895 --> 00:51.090\n抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025\n\n00:52.972 --> 01:15.748\n要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW\n\n01:17.909 --> 01:45.250\n現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴而已\n\n01:46.550 --> 02:04.585\n全力以赴這個監察院的報告我們也感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回覆的我們也會適當地說院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題\n\n02:05.746 --> 02:19.705\n其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無\n\n02:21.086 --> 02:41.747\n有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說漁電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電\n\n02:42.888 --> 03:07.443\n結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生養的不夠多\n\n03:08.403 --> 03:22.591\n讓地主來養魚這個問題這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試請部長來說明我跟委員說明\n\n03:25.012 --> 03:42.242\n那我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面的養魚的這些是由專業的漁卿來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與他的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式現在已經在做在示範了\n\n03:42.862 --> 04:07.969\n被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準\n\n04:10.410 --> 04:25.047\n所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大\n\n04:25.828 --> 04:43.621\n想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電\n\n04:44.682 --> 05:03.411\n不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題\n\n05:05.652 --> 05:18.816\n因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部它是一個跨部會的請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題\n\n05:22.357 --> 05:36.660\n報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院\n\n05:51.873 --> 06:18.375\n監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情\n\n06:19.156 --> 06:39.903\n我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有\n\n06:41.864 --> 06:55.040\n涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止\n\n06:57.583 --> 07:14.006\n那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全\n\n07:15.126 --> 07:29.633\n我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到\n\n07:30.543 --> 07:55.623\n不當的一些清潔用品那如果他也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期他就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上好院長我要給你建議\n\n07:56.784 --> 08:18.081\n事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水\n\n08:19.468 --> 08:41.440\n然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長你先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要\n\n08:42.561 --> 09:04.661\n在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了\n\n09:05.382 --> 09:31.901\n因為他是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎他連在上面要放伏具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你這是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成\n\n09:33.820 --> 10:02.510\n這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要\n\n10:03.290 --> 10:25.672\n沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量\n\n10:26.132 --> 10:50.984\n我們台灣對於我們水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們台灣就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年\n\n10:51.784 --> 11:15.306\n也就是他是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明\n\n11:17.320 --> 11:42.955\n剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他那也違法只能三年不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚\n\n11:44.793 --> 11:59.510\n一次就是三年啊除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊是什麼是什麼\n\n12:02.642 --> 12:29.559\n浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告\n\n12:31.818 --> 12:44.545\n經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的\n\n12:46.493 --> 13:13.296\n因為他這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板他絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的他是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固他是浮動式的啊他是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法\n\n13:14.517 --> 13:32.395\n你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已\n\n13:32.995 --> 14:00.173\n人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎\n\n14:03.476 --> 14:21.855\n這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面\n\n14:22.935 --> 14:50.592\n爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重我的建議是這樣子\n\n14:51.332 --> 15:03.978\n在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討\n\n15:06.310 --> 15:27.957\n我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三年這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題\n\n15:28.897 --> 15:43.454\n我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好\n\n15:44.235 --> 16:00.675\n但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧\n\n16:01.576 --> 16:26.537\n但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的\n\n16:27.017 --> 16:53.536\n我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來\n\n16:54.116 --> 17:20.311\n我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行\n\n17:20.791 --> 17:47.174\n他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦講電話啦聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位\n\n17:47.728 --> 18:04.093\n那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下\n\n18:05.496 --> 18:25.466\n其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事\n\n18:27.587 --> 18:43.781\n不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足運量不足因為每天都很塞坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的\n\n18:45.442 --> 19:13.371\n那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善\n\n19:13.891 --> 19:41.341\n不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見\n\n19:42.361 --> 20:06.617\n也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高物源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想所以才會有所謂厭痛的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權\n\n20:08.098 --> 20:37.260\n我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在指定第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐\n\n20:38.041 --> 20:58.043\n其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長\n\n20:58.764 --> 21:16.785\n你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起\n\n21:18.627 --> 21:45.864\n而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美\n\n21:47.004 --> 22:04.319\n我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法\n\n22:04.980 --> 22:31.202\n那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理\n\n22:32.943 --> 22:55.448\n接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推\n\n22:57.668 --> 23:25.726\n請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導\n\n23:26.747 --> 23:42.639\n同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題\n\n23:47.796 --> 24:05.141\n目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續長化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的\n\n24:06.621 --> 24:21.547\n它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應\n\n24:25.368 --> 24:37.737\n它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個專責單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部\n\n24:40.279 --> 25:09.649\n如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了\n\n25:10.149 --> 25:29.517\n因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個\n\n25:31.678 --> 25:45.357\n組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛一頭腳痛一腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織\n\n25:46.198 --> 26:08.307\n跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題像是電子菸的問題加熱菸的問題很多啊疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對三頭六病只有一個人很難啊\n\n26:09.648 --> 26:18.967\n你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談\n\n26:20.414 --> 26:39.422\n是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界一個回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設\n\n26:40.522 --> 27:01.250\n我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康兒童的預防兒童的權益照顧那是什麼樣的成績\n\n27:03.106 --> 27:24.060\n那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了\n\n27:24.921 --> 27:48.198\n就是他独立的一个部门他不是在下面他就是一个专责单位所以我希望这个院长可以好好思考另外最后的时间我要问也因应这个问题我有看到行政院在动10月27号有全国的婚姻御宅开始开放申请这是一个好的起点但是我必须坦白讲这个户数太少了\n\n27:48.818 --> 28:07.770\n然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的\n\n28:08.430 --> 28:33.788\n他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後\n\n28:35.948 --> 28:55.419\n謝謝委員這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為它基本上它還是涉宅的成分它還是涉宅的性質所以它有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演過程\n\n28:56.827 --> 29:22.146\n我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問了一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣什麼時候要比照南韓\n\n29:22.887 --> 29:49.198\n可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想迎南海不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門\n\n29:49.818 --> 30:04.575\n我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠\n\n30:05.696 --> 30:30.079\n現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好謝謝好謝謝王玉敏委員質詢謝謝卓院長各相關部會首長備詢謝謝\n\n30:35.015 --> 30:39.194\n我們現在休息十分鐘第一階段謝謝吳宗憲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.654,"end":10.419,"text":"謝謝院長我們現在請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選黃委員好"},{"start":22.642,"end":35.613,"text":"院長好 院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了"},{"start":36.895,"end":51.09,"text":"抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025"},{"start":52.972,"end":75.748,"text":"要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW"},{"start":77.909,"end":105.25,"text":"現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴而已"},{"start":106.55,"end":124.585,"text":"全力以赴這個監察院的報告我們也感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回覆的我們也會適當地說院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題"},{"start":125.746,"end":139.705,"text":"其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無"},{"start":141.086,"end":161.747,"text":"有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說漁電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電"},{"start":162.888,"end":187.443,"text":"結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好 謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生 養的不夠多"},{"start":188.403,"end":202.591,"text":"讓地主來養魚這個問題 這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試 請部長來說明我跟委員說明"},{"start":205.012,"end":222.242,"text":"那我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面的養魚的這些是由專業的漁卿來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與他的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式現在已經在做在示範了"},{"start":222.862,"end":247.969,"text":"被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準"},{"start":250.41,"end":265.047,"text":"所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大"},{"start":265.828,"end":283.621,"text":"想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電"},{"start":284.682,"end":303.411,"text":"不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題"},{"start":305.652,"end":318.816,"text":"因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部它是一個跨部會的請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題"},{"start":322.357,"end":336.66,"text":"報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院"},{"start":351.873,"end":378.375,"text":"監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情"},{"start":379.156,"end":399.903,"text":"我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有"},{"start":401.864,"end":415.04,"text":"涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止"},{"start":417.583,"end":434.006,"text":"那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全"},{"start":435.126,"end":449.633,"text":"我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到"},{"start":450.543,"end":475.623,"text":"不當的一些清潔用品那如果他也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期他就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上好 院長我要給你建議"},{"start":476.784,"end":498.081,"text":"事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水"},{"start":499.468,"end":521.44,"text":"然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長你先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要"},{"start":522.561,"end":544.661,"text":"在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了"},{"start":545.382,"end":571.901,"text":"因為他是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎他連在上面要放伏具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你這是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成"},{"start":573.82,"end":602.51,"text":"這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要"},{"start":603.29,"end":625.672,"text":"沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量"},{"start":626.132,"end":650.984,"text":"我們台灣對於我們水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們台灣就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年"},{"start":651.784,"end":675.306,"text":"也就是他是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明"},{"start":677.32,"end":702.955,"text":"剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他 那也違法只能三年 不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚"},{"start":704.793,"end":719.51,"text":"一次就是三年啊 除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊 是什麼是什麼"},{"start":722.642,"end":749.559,"text":"浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告"},{"start":751.818,"end":764.545,"text":"經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的"},{"start":766.493,"end":793.296,"text":"因為他這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板他絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的他是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固他是浮動式的啊他是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法"},{"start":794.517,"end":812.395,"text":"你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已"},{"start":812.995,"end":840.173,"text":"人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎"},{"start":843.476,"end":861.855,"text":"這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面"},{"start":862.935,"end":890.592,"text":"爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重我的建議是這樣子"},{"start":891.332,"end":903.978,"text":"在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討"},{"start":906.31,"end":927.957,"text":"我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三年這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題"},{"start":928.897,"end":943.454,"text":"我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好"},{"start":944.235,"end":960.675,"text":"但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧"},{"start":961.576,"end":986.537,"text":"但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的"},{"start":987.017,"end":1013.536,"text":"我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來"},{"start":1014.116,"end":1040.311,"text":"我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行"},{"start":1040.791,"end":1067.174,"text":"他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員 寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦 講電話啦 聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位"},{"start":1067.728,"end":1084.093,"text":"那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下"},{"start":1085.496,"end":1105.466,"text":"其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事"},{"start":1107.587,"end":1123.781,"text":"不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足 運量不足因為每天都很塞 坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的"},{"start":1125.442,"end":1153.371,"text":"那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善"},{"start":1153.891,"end":1181.341,"text":"不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見"},{"start":1182.361,"end":1206.617,"text":"也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高物源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想所以才會有所謂厭痛的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權"},{"start":1208.098,"end":1237.26,"text":"我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在指定第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐"},{"start":1238.041,"end":1258.043,"text":"其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長"},{"start":1258.764,"end":1276.785,"text":"你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起"},{"start":1278.627,"end":1305.864,"text":"而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美"},{"start":1307.004,"end":1324.319,"text":"我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法"},{"start":1324.98,"end":1351.202,"text":"那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理"},{"start":1352.943,"end":1375.448,"text":"接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有 已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推"},{"start":1377.668,"end":1405.726,"text":"請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導"},{"start":1406.747,"end":1422.639,"text":"同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題"},{"start":1427.796,"end":1445.141,"text":"目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續長化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的"},{"start":1446.621,"end":1461.547,"text":"它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應"},{"start":1465.368,"end":1477.737,"text":"它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個專責單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部"},{"start":1480.279,"end":1509.649,"text":"如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了"},{"start":1510.149,"end":1529.517,"text":"因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個"},{"start":1531.678,"end":1545.357,"text":"組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛一頭腳痛一腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織"},{"start":1546.198,"end":1568.307,"text":"跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題像是電子菸的問題加熱菸的問題很多啊疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對三頭六病只有一個人很難啊"},{"start":1569.648,"end":1578.967,"text":"你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談"},{"start":1580.414,"end":1599.422,"text":"是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界一個回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設"},{"start":1600.522,"end":1621.25,"text":"我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康 兒童的預防 兒童的權益照顧那是什麼樣的成績"},{"start":1623.106,"end":1644.06,"text":"那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了"},{"start":1644.921,"end":1668.198,"text":"就是他独立的一个部门他不是在下面他就是一个专责单位所以我希望这个院长可以好好思考另外最后的时间我要问也因应这个问题我有看到行政院在动10月27号有全国的婚姻御宅开始开放申请这是一个好的起点但是我必须坦白讲这个户数太少了"},{"start":1668.818,"end":1687.77,"text":"然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的"},{"start":1688.43,"end":1713.788,"text":"他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後"},{"start":1715.948,"end":1735.419,"text":"謝謝委員 這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為它基本上它還是涉宅的成分它還是涉宅的性質所以它有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演過程"},{"start":1736.827,"end":1762.146,"text":"我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問了一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣什麼時候要比照南韓"},{"start":1762.887,"end":1789.198,"text":"可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想迎南海不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門"},{"start":1789.818,"end":1804.575,"text":"我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠"},{"start":1805.696,"end":1830.079,"text":"現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":1835.015,"end":1839.194,"text":"我們現在休息十分鐘第一階段謝謝吳宗憲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時6分）謝謝院長，我們現在請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：院長好。院長，昨天監察院出了一份調查報告，是針對太陽光電的問題，報告中列舉了七大疏失跟問題，不曉得院長有沒有時間看這份報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，我昨天都在看雨量，所以沒有看。"],["王委員育敏：好，部會裡面應該有人看到這份報告了。"],["龔部長明鑫：有。"],["王委員育敏：在這份報告裡面直指的第一個問題是太陽光電本來2025年要達到的目標是20GW，但是到113年底只有14.28GW，就是沒有達到目標。事實上，這個部分一再跳票，前任的經濟部部長也已經承認了，但是他有允諾2026年11月一定會達到20GW。現在我重新問院長這個問題，既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題，太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多，真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎？這個目標要不要重新修正？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們現在的目標。"],["龔部長明鑫：仍然是我們的目標。"],["王委員育敏：仍然是既定的目標？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員育敏：你認為可以達成嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：全力以赴。"],["王委員育敏：可以保證達標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是全力以赴啊！"],["王委員育敏：全力以赴？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，關於監察院的報告，我們也感覺到這個就是五院體制一個好的地方，在報告中提出了這些內容，對我們提醒的，我們要全力自我檢討，那如果有一些我們可以回復的，我們也會做適當的說明。"],["王委員育敏：院長，我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面點出了非常多的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：其中一個就是你要用的土地是與農爭地，不只是與農爭地，你的漁電共生是你們現在要以達到20GW為最大的目標，但是最近最大的問題就是有電無魚，有七成是審計部已經揪出來了，那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成，也就是你們的這個政策其實有非常大的問題。更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候，他也是信誓旦旦的說漁電共生沒有問題，很完美，有魚有電，結果這是假象。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，沒有，它是在……"],["王委員育敏：所以我要提出來的是，既然漁電共生也有問題，既然與農爭地也有爭議，現在水面型光電的檢討聲浪也非常多，請問你下一個目標是明年可以達到20GW嗎？你把目標放在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我們也看到漁電共生的魚養得不夠多，讓地主來養魚的這個狀況，我們已經看到其缺失，所以農業部有提出新的方式，希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚，那我們還是來種電，看能不能這樣嘗試，請部長來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們現在在處理的就是，漁電共生裡面養魚的是由這些專業的漁青來進場，而且是在光電設計的時候就參與設計。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我知道，你講的都是理想化的模式。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，現在已經在做、在試辦了。"],["王委員育敏：但是現實被審計部揪出來的是，過去發展的這幾年，漁電共生並沒有真正達到目標。"],["陳部長駿季：因為過去我們發現由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的。"],["王委員育敏：而且你們很多是開後門，就直接讓它先發電，不養魚就先發電，先開後門。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個沒有拿到電業執照，有電網，但是沒有拿到執照。"],["王委員育敏：對，所以它沒有真正達到暨合法又達到漁電共生，符合標準。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，那個就是沒有在議程裡面……"],["王委員育敏：所以我要提醒的是，20GW這個政策雖然是你們的目標，但是該修正了，該怎麼修正就務實地面對問題，為什麼？我要指出來的是，我們臺灣的土地面積真的不大，想要發展太陽能光電，屋頂型的大家沒有問題，地面型的如果有足夠的荒廢土地，不是良地，不要毀林種電，不要像我們看到如高雄這樣的情況，我也不要看到嘉義縣台糖要大規模去毀林種電，不是這種破壞土地的種電，我們都支持。但是你現在還有這麼大的落差，你要達到這個目標，我很擔心像這樣的亂象繼續往前推進。我要就教院長，這幾個指出來的問題，請問是由誰來負責解決這些問題？因為現在涉及到農業部，涉及到經濟部，涉及到內政部，它是一個跨部會的問題，請問監察院這份調查報告直指出來的問題，你的改善報告要由誰來負責督導統籌所有的問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我會很清楚地看完監察院的報告，該哪個部會處理，我們會依序下去，剛剛你說過涉及這麼多的部會首長、部會業務都在裡面，我們當然會有一位政委來負責。"],["王委員育敏：是哪一位？"],["卓院長榮泰：陳金德政委是工程會的主委。"],["王委員育敏：所以陳金德政委會來統籌所有的事項，這樣的檢討報告大概多久會提出來回應監察院？"],["卓院長榮泰：監察院的報告如果沒有訂時間，我們儘快回應，我們在一個月內會有完整的說明出來。"],["王委員育敏：一個月內，請你也提供一份報告給立法院，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。","接下來我要請教的是水面型光電的問題，在水面型光電的問題裡面，我有一張表要給院長看一下，特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情，我不知道院長體察到的民意有多少？但是我們可以看看這張圖表，有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩，有些地方是抗議之後喊停，包括我現在經常去跑的嘉義，我們看到蘭潭水庫、仁義潭水庫，還有涉及到嘉義、臺南的曾文水庫，都是在地方包括議會、民代、民眾強力反彈之後，這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的計畫就中止，請問院長，為什麼民眾對於民生用水庫要蓋光電板的反彈會這麼強烈，你有體察到民意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然大家希望在保護環境之外，第一個優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全，我以前說過，如果我們沒有辦法處理水質問題的話，水庫上面做光電板的工作就勢必做不下去，在目前看起來，包括環境部所說的，整個清洗的過程並沒有用到一些不當的清潔用品，它也持續一直在監測水質安全，目前來看，水質是可控的，但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心。所以在更有信心之前，像臺南烏山頭水庫第二期就停下來了，只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話，我們會先跟地方溝通，在沒有取得共識之前，我想不會貿然再增加大型水庫上的……"],["王委員育敏：院長，我要給你建議，事實上，你剛剛看到的那幾個，我今天特別關注的是民生用水庫，它百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水，你剛才講到一個重點，民眾對於食安的要求、對於自己喝的水的要求是百分之百堅持，就像今天我要喝的這杯水，如果上面加了一個塑膠的東西，你說它是無毒、無害，然後說委員放心，這個好漂亮、這個放在上面有功能，你把它喝下去都沒有問題！我要告訴……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，那個電板跟淨水場離很遠。"],["王委員育敏：部長，你先不用講話，先不要打斷我。我要告訴院長的是，有沒有必要在要喝的水上面去加裝任何的東西？如果我們對於食安的要求、對於水質的要求是這麼高標準，我給院長看一下，我們現在有一個水庫蓄水範圍使用管理辦法，我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法？我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了！因為它是對於水庫源頭做了非常高強度的管理，你知道嗎？它連在上面要放浮具都不可以，要申請；行駛船筏也不可以；你要去放生魚類、水產物，不行喔！這個通通都要管理。如果這些東西都要好好管理的話，本席百分之百贊成，這麼大型的光電板設施浮在民生用的水庫上面，你會不會覺得這在道理上、民眾的直觀為什麼會覺得不可以，我要求水源是百分之百的乾淨，今天要在上面加諸任何東西，你告訴我有多麼地安全，我的答案當然是不可以！不只是不可以，更是不需要！沒有必要！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，以國際的例子來看，美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的狀況，而且他們的標準跟我們相比，我們絕對不會落後於他們。"],["王委員育敏：院長，如果你要這樣子講，我就要說世界各國有核電，為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來？當你講這個的時候，你們就引用國際例子，當講到核能，你就說臺灣有我們自己的考量，臺灣對於水庫水源的安全保證，我們就是要求一個高標準嘛！另外一個，我要看的是今天的……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的高標準，我們都接受，我們都接受高標準，臺灣就是因為地窄人稠……"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，我還沒有講完，我還沒有講完……"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們的淨水場都會有檢測。"],["王委員育敏：在這個條文裡面，除了要申請之外，還有許可使用期限不得超過三年，也就是它採取一個高密度的監督跟管理，任何來申請的不能超過三年，我請問你們現在關於水庫的申請一核准是幾年？可以使用二十年啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：七年。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理辦法？你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣的管理辦法？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年，如果它……"],["王委員育敏：那也違法啊！只能三年啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有違法啊！哪有違法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不可能違法。"],["王委員育敏：它的許可使用年限不得超過三年啊！你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎？怎麼會沒有違法？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你的七年就超過三年，怎麼沒有違法？"],["龔部長明鑫：地方政府核定的。"],["王委員育敏：所以就違反這個管理辦法啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有違反管理辦法。"],["王委員育敏：仔細看清楚，一次就是三年啊！它裡面有一個例外條款，如果蓋的是一個永久性的設施，許可使用年限不受三年的規定。"],["龔部長明鑫：是啊、是啊！"],["王委員育敏：我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎？你說是啊，是什麼？"],["龔部長明鑫：它是很長期的。"],["王委員育敏：是什麼？浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎？你們自己違法都不知道，請問你們開什麼會？法務部相關的法規人員沒有人提出來嗎？除非你有另立一個專法，就是光電板設在水庫上面，突破了現行的管制跟規定，有嗎？有任何一位要上來說明嗎？你們是突破哪一個法令的規定？誰可以說明，麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部現在核定的跟地方政府核定的就是用七年來做標準……"],["王委員育敏：那就違法啊！我在跟你討論是水庫的部分，現行的水庫蓄水範圍使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它這個……"],["王委員育敏：一次就是三年，你為什麼可以核七年？"],["卓院長榮泰：光電板絕對不是臨時性搭上去的，它是相當堅固的，所以這次在……"],["王委員育敏：相當堅固？一個丹娜絲颱風吹翻了多少個光電板，相當堅固？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次在嘉義出現的那幾個毀損……"],["王委員育敏：它是浮動式的啊！它是漂浮在水面，怎麼會是非常堅固呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以丹娜絲這個……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，它是固定式的。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個部分，我要求你們回去要給本席一份檢討報告，依我現在找出來的資料，你們就是違法。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們請經濟部來說明這個事情。"],["王委員育敏：你們當時的開會紀錄，到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的？為什麼你可以先給業者這麼長的時間？這就是很明顯的違法嘛！這件事情我要跟院長報告的是，我今天就是站在人民的角度而已，人民為什麼不願意？我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發，我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水、民生水庫，臺灣有缺電缺到……我們這麼少量、珍貴的民生用水庫，一定要拿來放置水面型光電板，然後讓民眾焦慮不安，有必要嗎？於法也不符。","這個部分我希望院長好好思考，該怎麼決定，不需要的！你也可以立場很清楚地告訴全國民眾，以後民生用水庫完全排除光電廠的開發，也不開發，水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面，爭議就解了，很多民眾的反彈是因為他喝的水，他不允許在源頭放置這樣的東西。我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難，但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後，你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難，爭議就在這邊而已，把它切掉，很多問題其實就沒有那麼嚴重了，我的建議是這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。已經現有的，我們持續加強水質的監測；未來的，如果沒有消除地方的疑慮，而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話，那麼這個政策的討論，我們會慎重來檢討。"],["王委員育敏：好，我覺得民生水庫至少依法……你們現在核出去的都超過三年，這個已經違法了，我的立場很清楚，我幫民眾請命，不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施，也發不了多少電、救不了多少綠能20GW的目標。","接下來我要討論的是我們現在少子化的問題，因為現在少子化，所以真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施，前一陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂，讓很多家長都炸鍋了，它的立意我不能說是不好，但是它的執行方式跟手段完全忽略了育兒家庭的這些家長，他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中、搭乘公共運輸的過程當中，的確孩子就是會哭鬧，但是它用了一個寧靜車廂，讓他壓力倍增，在整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候，他會變得很突兀，然後他會被指責，而且有一些人甚至有厭童的情緒，矛頭就會指向帶著小孩的家長，我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利，我們接到非常多家長的抱怨。","但是我個人認為這件事情是有解方的，我們看看其他先進國家，他們會運用的方式就是設置親子車廂，讓有小孩的家長在親子車廂裡面，大家的包容性都很強，而且可以有一些很友善的措施，你看看像德國的高鐵，他們就有幼兒的包廂措施，在裡面包括設計嬰兒車的停放區空間也比較大，也方便家長可以出來；我們再看瑞士的國鐵，也是有這樣的親子車廂。","關於這樣的措施，我認為是一個進步的象徵，也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候，我們可以對家長更友善一點。但是很可惜，我在委員會的時候，當天部長沒有出席，是次長出席，談到這個議題的時候，高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成，他們都覺得不可行，他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情，今天兩位都在現場，我想請問你們的意見，我們比照先進國家去設置親子車廂，真的這麼不可行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的，講話、講電話、聽音樂都不要吵到別人，但絕對不是針對嬰幼兒的聲音。至於高鐵，因為它也是一個營運單位，所以要設置這樣的親子車廂，包括剛剛說嬰兒車放的位置要擴大等等，這都牽涉到車廂、車體的改變，這個部分剛剛您說高鐵當天是沒有同意，我請部長再跟高鐵做溝通。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境，不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的，我覺得我們國家要進步到這樣的程度比較好。感謝您在關心，確實如果有一些車廂是有餘裕的空間，如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆，這絕對是好事。不過，高鐵其實遇到一個狀況，現在是運能不足、運量不足，坦白講每天都很塞，如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子，我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難的；但是像臺鐵有一些支線是比較旅遊型的，它每天的載運量也沒有這麼大，壓力沒這麼大的時候，或許我們有些車廂可以設計成讓親子更友善，或者是讓小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境，這個部分其實我們可以整體來思考，臺灣有很多的運具空間，我們來思考哪些運具空間是可以朝這個方向去做安排或者是做改善的，這個我們來討論。但是整體的、所有的交通環境，我們都希望它是親子友善，不管是在哪一個車廂，即便是在高鐵的商務車廂也應該是要親子友善才對。"],["王委員育敏：好，部長，您的立意非常良善，這個當然是我們追求的最高目標，大家都應該要對孩子友善，但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會，有人對於孩子的聲音容忍度就是很低，他希望在搭車的時候，最好就是不要出現這些聲音，那些人的意見也可以理解，所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂，這個完全都可以理解。但我們解決問題也不能好高騖遠，你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態，像我們從事兒童工作會認為大家都應該這麼友善，但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想，所以才會有所謂厭童的情緒，而處理這種多元議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權。","我剛剛講的建議，我不是要高鐵一下子就能夠把整個車廂打造得像德國這樣子這麼好，但至少它可以先做什麼事情？你可以告訴大家，比如說你現在指定第5車廂或者是第7車廂為親子車廂，讓家長可以先訂票，而且教育大眾，對外講這個叫親子車廂，親子可以優先訂票，我帶小孩優先訂這個車廂。當然，如果你買不到票的，親子車廂不是只有親子可以坐，其他買不到票的人也可以坐，所以不會有排擠座位的問題，其他人若買不到票，你買到親子車廂就要有一點點心理準備，這個車廂小孩子比較多，可能聲音會比較大，所以他自己也接受了，就不會抱怨。但它的好處是什麼？你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長在親子車廂是安心的，不用接受質疑的眼光，孩子要大聲就大聲，孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧，而且高鐵可以把所有要給孩子的乖乖、要安撫孩子的工具及人員就集中在這個車廂，從這邊開始做起；至於未來新購入的車廂就是下一個階段，你可以透過空間的改造，達到更名符其實的親子車廂。我認為處理這個問題的政策是這樣，完全不增加它的成本，但是有沒有解決現行的爭議？我覺得是有的，而且寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實？也是可以的，這個叫做兩全其美。我希望你們可以好好去思考這個政策，這是不增加成本的，你先讓家長方便，解除他的壓力，我認為這個是可以往前推進的。","臺鐵目前雖然是虧損的，但是之前我們有立法，所以其實臺鐵他們也做了，現在反而臺鐵是有親子車廂的，也頗受好評，一個虧損的公司在做這件事情，它是配合政府的立法跟政策，也做得不錯。所以我相信以高鐵的高效率跟營運能力，沒有不行的，而且我們可以成為亞洲的典範，最友善親子的典範，這一點提供你們參考，我認為可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理。","接下來我要問的是少子化的議題，我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有。部長，前任的衛福部部長在委員會我們已經多次詢答，他說：有，已經在研議；而現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問，他說參考了德國的專責單位，他很有感，回來之後會繼續推。請問要設立兒少的專責單位這件事情，院長知道嗎？你有允諾要設立嗎？我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有接受過這樣的意見，對於設立一個專責單位，所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策在整個政策上的擬訂、推動等等，當然這是跨部會的，所以需要由政委來做主導。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：同時我們會不定期召開相關的會議，也會提出對少子化政策所需要的一些配套措施，包括福利政策等等，這個都是在跨部會當中來運作，現在的運作是針對問題來解決問題，而不是設置一個專責的機構來解決這個問題，目前解決問題的過程跟能力還算是順暢，我們朝這個方向繼續強化。"],["王委員育敏：順暢嗎？院長，我要跟你討論一個問題，我們跟日本很友好，很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走，日本是怎麼處理問題的？他們先設立了一個兒童家庭廳，是在首相之下……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員育敏：在我們臺灣就等於是在院長您之下，直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳，他們是用這樣子的一個專門組織跟規模、層級來回應現在的少子化議題，因為夠重視，當然就會有這一個專責單位，就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部部長，李洋部長在現場，就是我們夠重視運動，我們有運動部。如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化問題，夠重視兒少議題，也應該要有一個專責單位，這是很多民間單位已經推動非常久，現在也到了該要決斷的時候，為什麼？因為今年新生兒的出生率是史上最低，恐怕不到12萬，這是一個很恐怖的數字，如果是人口學專家，他們大概焦慮到睡不著了，因為出生率如果掉到12萬以下，對於我們的國力也好、將來的生產力也好，各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的，所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅來面對了。","在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中，這個是根本，你沒有從一個組織的高度來解決問題的時候，你只會頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變，因為你沒有一個好的組織跟好的人才專心來想這件事情，大家業務都很繁忙，新的衛福部部長不忙嗎？很忙，他處理醫療的問題，一下子電子煙的問題、加熱菸的問題，很多疾病管理的問題，誰專心在想這件事情呢？不能只有陳時中政委一個人，對不對？三頭六臂，只有一個人很難啊！要有一群人好好的在這件事情上做一個好的政策思考，我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，跟委員……"],["王委員育敏：院長，你是不是可以回去開會仔細討論，然後給外界一個回應？這個專責單位不能是前任部長說要設，次長人在德國說要設，結果我現在在院會正式詢問的時候，院長回答不出來，也沒有說一定要設。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會等次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一些什麼樣國際上的先進作為。不過我跟委員報告，現在這個階段，我們會從兒童、少年以及家庭支持有新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做，包括兒童的健康、兒童的預防、兒童的權益照顧，還有整個家庭支持……"],["王委員育敏：好，那是什麼樣的層級？"],["卓院長榮泰：在部會下面，先在部會下做這個事情，以後我們會跟次長來談談看，參考國外好的經驗，如果我們真的有能力，需要做到那個程度的話……"],["王委員育敏：直接跟院長報告，德國原本把衛生福利跟家庭部門放在一起，也是在它下面，現在分開了，就是獨立的一個部門，它不是在下面，就是一個專責單位，所以我希望院長可以好好思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["王委員育敏：最後的時間我要問，也因應這個問題，我有看到行政院在動，10月27號全國的婚育宅開始開放申請，這是一個好的起點，但是我必須坦白講，這個戶數太少了……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛開始。"],["王委員育敏：然後設定12年，我無法理解，一個婚育家庭和他們的小孩，他們今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅，孩子國小畢業之後就得搬家了，沒有辦法在這一個區域念完國中。你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的，他們都是20年，等孩子長大成人之後才會更換，為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢？孩子念到國小就要搬家，你知道搬家對一個家庭來講，他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換，為什麼當時在思考政策的時候會設定這麼的短，而不是放大年限，至少讓他到國、高中畢業之後？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少，我們會快速地來增加；另外，因為基本上它還是社宅的成分、還是社宅的性質，所以有一種轉換率的需求……"],["王委員育敏：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果社宅達到我們的預定目標之後，這個年限當然是可以再放寬的，內政部都有相關的推演過程。"],["王委員育敏：我今天要表達的就是這個對於婚育家庭來講是不夠的，因為我去大學演講時，很多年輕朋友最焦慮的的確是住的問題，當我跟他們講南韓有這麼好的一個政策，鼓勵婚育家庭，他們聽了很羨慕，他們問的一個問題就是，委員，請問我們臺灣什麼時候要比照南韓，可以有這樣的婚育宅、可以讓我們真的想結婚的人擁有房子、可以在裡面安心地生小孩？這是我在第一線聽到年輕人最真實的聲音，他們羨慕得不得了。我希望「好想贏南韓」不是口號，而是真的在婚育宅的政策也可以超越他，有關這部分，我希望院長回去之後可以指示相關部門，現在台糖有那麼多的土地，其實還有很多的空間，我們現在有了這個起步，我肯定27號上路的婚育宅，但是我要告訴大家的是，這個數量真的遠遠不夠，現在年輕人面對住宅真的是他最大的一個問題，我希望這個部分在你們回去之後……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在已經釋放出將近50萬戶了……"],["王委員育敏：好，內政部長也在這邊，請回去加強而且去盤點，我們需要更大的量，而且期效不能只是12年，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：現在已經盤點48萬戶以上，未來6年……"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘，第一階段，謝謝吳宗憲委員、羅智強委員、羅廷瑋委員一起陪同我們參與，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時37分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}}