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\"絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 195.104, \"end\": 195.284, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 195.284, \"end\": 195.624, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 195.624, \"end\": 195.764, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 195.764, \"end\": 196.385, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 196.385, \"end\": 197.145, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 197.145, \"end\": 197.305, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 197.305, \"end\": 197.505, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 197.505, \"end\": 197.946, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 197.946, \"end\": 198.066, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 198.066, \"end\": 198.466, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", 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\"start\": 209.611, \"end\": 209.731, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 209.731, \"end\": 210.171, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 210.171, \"end\": 210.452, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 210.452, \"end\": 210.632, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 210.632, \"end\": 210.832, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 210.832, \"end\": 211.012, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 211.012, \"end\": 211.132, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 211.132, \"end\": 211.452, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 211.452, \"end\": 211.772, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 211.772, \"end\": 211.872, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 211.872, \"end\": 212.092, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 212.092, \"end\": 212.332, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 212.332, \"end\": 212.513, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 212.513, \"end\": 212.673, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 212.673, \"end\": 212.793, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 212.793, \"end\": 212.813, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"驟\"}]}, {\"start\": 213.553, \"end\": 230.761, \"text\": \"好 謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 213.553, \"end\": 214.794, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 214.794, \"end\": 214.934, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 214.934, \"end\": 215.154, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 215.154, \"end\": 215.274, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 215.274, \"end\": 215.394, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 215.394, \"end\": 215.674, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 215.674, \"end\": 216.114, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"稍\", \"start\": 216.114, \"end\": 216.374, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 216.374, \"end\": 216.494, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 216.494, \"end\": 216.654, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 216.654, \"end\": 216.774, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 216.774, \"end\": 217.135, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 217.135, \"end\": 217.335, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 217.335, \"end\": 217.455, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"烏\"}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 217.455, \"end\": 218.135, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 218.135, \"end\": 218.475, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 218.475, \"end\": 218.595, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 218.595, \"end\": 218.735, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 218.735, \"end\": 219.516, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 219.516, \"end\": 219.836, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 219.836, \"end\": 220.136, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 220.136, \"end\": 220.456, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 220.456, \"end\": 220.576, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 220.576, \"end\": 220.716, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 220.716, \"end\": 221.136, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 221.136, \"end\": 221.957, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 221.957, \"end\": 222.197, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 222.197, \"end\": 222.477, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 222.477, \"end\": 223.077, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"陰\"}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 223.077, \"end\": 223.277, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 223.277, \"end\": 223.437, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 223.437, \"end\": 223.617, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 223.617, \"end\": 223.798, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"介\", \"start\": 223.798, \"end\": 223.918, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 223.918, \"end\": 224.798, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"劑\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 224.798, \"end\": 225.318, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 225.318, \"end\": 226.119, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 226.119, \"end\": 226.259, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"灌\", \"start\": 226.259, \"end\": 226.419, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"溉\", \"start\": 226.419, \"end\": 226.539, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 226.539, \"end\": 226.779, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 226.779, \"end\": 226.959, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 226.959, \"end\": 227.059, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 227.059, \"end\": 227.339, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 227.339, \"end\": 227.819, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"倍\", \"start\": 227.819, \"end\": 228.36, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 228.36, \"end\": 228.62, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 228.62, \"end\": 229.3, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 229.3, \"end\": 229.48, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 229.48, \"end\": 229.92, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 229.92, \"end\": 230.48, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 230.48, \"end\": 230.741, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 230.741, \"end\": 230.761, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 231.821, \"end\": 246.768, \"text\": \"那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 231.821, \"end\": 232.061, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 232.061, \"end\": 232.161, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 232.161, \"end\": 232.301, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 232.301, \"end\": 232.721, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 232.721, \"end\": 232.842, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 232.842, \"end\": 232.942, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 232.942, \"end\": 233.202, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 233.202, \"end\": 233.442, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 233.442, \"end\": 233.942, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 233.942, \"end\": 234.062, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 234.062, \"end\": 234.202, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 234.202, \"end\": 234.682, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 234.682, \"end\": 235.263, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 235.263, \"end\": 235.363, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 235.363, \"end\": 235.543, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"刻\", \"start\": 235.543, \"end\": 235.783, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 235.783, \"end\": 235.943, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 235.943, \"end\": 236.063, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 236.063, \"end\": 236.563, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 236.563, \"end\": 237.283, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 237.283, \"end\": 237.484, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 237.484, \"end\": 237.584, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 237.584, \"end\": 237.744, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 237.744, \"end\": 237.904, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 237.904, \"end\": 238.064, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 238.064, \"end\": 238.304, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 238.304, \"end\": 238.824, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 238.824, \"end\": 238.964, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 238.964, \"end\": 239.224, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 239.224, \"end\": 239.504, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 239.504, \"end\": 240.825, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"烏\"}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 240.825, \"end\": 241.065, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"稠\", \"start\": 241.065, \"end\": 241.305, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 241.305, \"end\": 241.585, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 241.585, \"end\": 242.026, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 242.026, \"end\": 242.226, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:01,675\n麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:14,966 --> 00:00:32,096\n務委員好院長好剛才我有聽到王委員有問一個問題就是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情那我其實在剛進入立法院的第一年當時水利署在牡丹水庫\n\n3\n00:00:32,856 --> 00:00:49,379\n我記得也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案不過留標十幾次後來有一位立法委員就是很積極的促成這件事情所以當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我澄清\n\n4\n00:00:50,260 --> 00:01:05,903\n因為地方是因為不了解所以傾向比較不同意後來是沒有設置但是多年後我才發現說這件事情雖然是合法的但是有弊案發生了就是那位立委\n\n5\n00:01:07,605 --> 00:01:23,426\n現在很多人其實很容易把我們的再生能源發展跟這一些破壞環境弊案掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法\n\n6\n00:01:28,265 --> 00:01:39,322\n剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人\n\n7\n00:01:40,123 --> 00:02:08,908\n因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個是的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這是這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的\n\n8\n00:02:09,768 --> 00:02:25,597\n理解以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對包委喔因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個\n\n9\n00:02:26,537 --> 00:02:52,045\n水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查沒有任何安全的疑慮稍微說明一下比如說烏山口水庫來講的話\n\n10\n00:02:54,326 --> 00:03:14,143\n裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是\n\n11\n00:03:15,104 --> 00:03:32,813\n絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟\n\n12\n00:03:33,553 --> 00:03:50,761\n好謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水\n\n13\n00:03:51,821 --> 00:04:06,768\n那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角\n\n14\n00:04:07,888 --> 00:04:26,381\n所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤\n\n15\n00:04:27,318 --> 00:04:49,871\n我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官\n\n16\n00:04:50,772 --> 00:05:08,506\n進駐到第一線來去支援協助大家都很辛苦那其中的這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置呢在國際間其實都已經有了可是呢這是莫拉克\n\n17\n00:05:09,146 --> 00:05:34,702\n災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起\n\n18\n00:05:35,722 --> 00:06:00,516\n做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色虎我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實\n\n19\n00:06:02,657 --> 00:06:09,964\n我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部\n\n20\n00:06:17,751 --> 00:06:43,814\n沐浴車就來了那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的0.2%而且他是距離很近所以要做處理很快\n\n21\n00:06:43,814 --> 00:07:04,767\n很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做引子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣\n\n22\n00:07:05,887 --> 00:07:23,036\n那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了\n\n23\n00:07:23,496 --> 00:07:52,770\n我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃\n\n24\n00:07:54,171 --> 00:08:07,996\n這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃\n\n25\n00:08:18,973 --> 00:08:44,330\n艾文應該是150萬左右一公頃所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨髮補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵趙琳現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要趙琳還是淨髮很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150\n\n26\n00:08:46,491 --> 00:09:13,167\n也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入那我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償\n\n27\n00:09:14,981 --> 00:09:24,899\n為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟\n\n28\n00:09:26,869 --> 00:09:47,011\n但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個30%能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟\n\n29\n00:09:48,092 --> 00:10:14,046\n但是我們希望項目更多元一點那我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是禁法補償\n\n30\n00:10:15,767 --> 00:10:33,882\n會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把他扣除掉就不能領淨法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的淨法補償被取消\n\n31\n00:10:35,043 --> 00:10:50,382\n我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是\n\n32\n00:10:51,242 --> 00:11:14,772\n國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村\n\n33\n00:11:16,032 --> 00:11:30,960\n跟地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則\n\n34\n00:11:32,759 --> 00:11:51,606\n我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示針對那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是\n\n35\n00:11:52,586 --> 00:12:16,458\n原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了\n\n36\n00:12:17,158 --> 00:12:41,952\n第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨防護牆會我們現在也在\n\n37\n00:12:44,753 --> 00:13:02,005\n在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來研商非常感謝我其實我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物\n\n38\n00:13:02,825 --> 00:13:23,217\n那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧\n\n39\n00:13:24,458 --> 00:13:52,049\n這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米\n\n40\n00:13:53,220 --> 00:14:16,639\n也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法消防法\n\n41\n00:14:17,179 --> 00:14:44,262\n其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會\n\n42\n00:14:45,703 --> 00:15:05,868\n有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業\n\n43\n00:15:07,228 --> 00:15:19,053\n不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好謝謝吳立華委員質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長各位首長備詢謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t1675\t麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n14966\t32096\t務委員好院長好剛才我有聽到王委員有問一個問題就是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情那我其實在剛進入立法院的第一年當時水利署在牡丹水庫\n32856\t49379\t我記得也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案不過留標十幾次後來有一位立法委員就是很積極的促成這件事情所以當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我澄清\n50260\t65903\t因為地方是因為不了解所以傾向比較不同意後來是沒有設置但是多年後我才發現說這件事情雖然是合法的但是有弊案發生了就是那位立委\n67605\t83426\t現在很多人其實很容易把我們的再生能源發展跟這一些破壞環境 弊案掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法\n88265\t99322\t剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人\n100123\t128908\t因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個是的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這是這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的\n129768\t145597\t理解 以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對 包委喔 因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游 甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個\n146537\t172045\t水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查 沒有任何安全的疑慮稍微說明一下比如說烏山口水庫來講的話\n174326\t194143\t裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是\n195104\t212813\t絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟\n213553\t230761\t好 謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水\n231821\t246768\t那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角\n247888\t266381\t所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤\n267318\t289871\t我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好 謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官\n290772\t308506\t進駐到第一線來去支援協助大家都很辛苦那其中的這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置呢在國際間其實都已經有了可是呢這是莫拉克\n309146\t334702\t災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起\n335722\t360516\t做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到 園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色虎我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實\n362657\t369964\t我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部\n377751\t403814\t沐浴車就來了那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的0.2%而且他是距離很近所以要做處理很快\n403814\t424767\t很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做引子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣\n425887\t443036\t那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了\n443496\t472770\t我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃\n474171\t487996\t這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃\n498973\t524330\t艾文應該是150萬左右一公頃所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨髮補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵趙琳現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要趙琳還是淨髮很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150\n526491\t553167\t也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入那我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償\n554981\t564899\t為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟\n566869\t587011\t但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個30%能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟\n588092\t614046\t但是我們希望項目更多元一點那我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是禁法補償\n615767\t633882\t會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把他扣除掉就不能領淨法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的淨法補償被取消\n635043\t650382\t我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是\n651242\t674772\t國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村\n676032\t690960\t跟地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則\n692759\t711606\t我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示針對那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是\n712586\t736458\t原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了\n737158\t761952\t第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項 一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好 那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨防護牆會 我們現在也在\n764753\t782005\t在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來研商非常感謝我其實我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物\n782825\t803217\t那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧\n804458\t832049\t這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米\n833220\t856639\t也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法 消防法\n857179\t884262\t其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會\n885703\t905868\t有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業\n907228\t919053\t不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好謝謝吳立華委員質詢 謝謝謝謝卓院長 各位首長備詢 謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n務委員好院長好剛才我有聽到王委員有問一個問題就是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情那我其實在剛進入立法院的第一年當時水利署在牡丹水庫\n我記得也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案不過留標十幾次後來有一位立法委員就是很積極的促成這件事情所以當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我澄清\n因為地方是因為不了解所以傾向比較不同意後來是沒有設置但是多年後我才發現說這件事情雖然是合法的但是有弊案發生了就是那位立委\n現在很多人其實很容易把我們的再生能源發展跟這一些破壞環境 弊案掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法\n剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人\n因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個是的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這是這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的\n理解 以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對 包委喔 因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游 甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個\n水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查 沒有任何安全的疑慮稍微說明一下比如說烏山口水庫來講的話\n裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是\n絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟\n好 謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水\n那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角\n所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤\n我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好 謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官\n進駐到第一線來去支援協助大家都很辛苦那其中的這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置呢在國際間其實都已經有了可是呢這是莫拉克\n災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起\n做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到 園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色虎我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實\n我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部\n沐浴車就來了那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的0.2%而且他是距離很近所以要做處理很快\n很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做引子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣\n那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了\n我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃\n這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃\n艾文應該是150萬左右一公頃所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨髮補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵趙琳現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要趙琳還是淨髮很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150\n也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入那我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償\n為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟\n但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個30%能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟\n但是我們希望項目更多元一點那我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是禁法補償\n會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把他扣除掉就不能領淨法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的淨法補償被取消\n我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是\n國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村\n跟地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則\n我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示針對那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是\n原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了\n第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項 一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好 那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨防護牆會 我們現在也在\n在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來研商非常感謝我其實我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物\n那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧\n這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米\n也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法 消防法\n其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會\n有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業\n不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好謝謝吳立華委員質詢 謝謝謝謝卓院長 各位首長備詢 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:01.675\n麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:14.966 --> 00:32.096\n務委員好院長好剛才我有聽到王委員有問一個問題就是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情那我其實在剛進入立法院的第一年當時水利署在牡丹水庫\n\n00:32.856 --> 00:49.379\n我記得也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案不過留標十幾次後來有一位立法委員就是很積極的促成這件事情所以當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我澄清\n\n00:50.260 --> 01:05.903\n因為地方是因為不了解所以傾向比較不同意後來是沒有設置但是多年後我才發現說這件事情雖然是合法的但是有弊案發生了就是那位立委\n\n01:07.605 --> 01:23.426\n現在很多人其實很容易把我們的再生能源發展跟這一些破壞環境弊案掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法\n\n01:28.265 --> 01:39.322\n剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人\n\n01:40.123 --> 02:08.908\n因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個是的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這是這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的\n\n02:09.768 --> 02:25.597\n理解以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對包委喔因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個\n\n02:26.537 --> 02:52.045\n水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查沒有任何安全的疑慮稍微說明一下比如說烏山口水庫來講的話\n\n02:54.326 --> 03:14.143\n裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是\n\n03:15.104 --> 03:32.813\n絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟\n\n03:33.553 --> 03:50.761\n好謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水\n\n03:51.821 --> 04:06.768\n那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角\n\n04:07.888 --> 04:26.381\n所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤\n\n04:27.318 --> 04:49.871\n我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官\n\n04:50.772 --> 05:08.506\n進駐到第一線來去支援協助大家都很辛苦那其中的這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置呢在國際間其實都已經有了可是呢這是莫拉克\n\n05:09.146 --> 05:34.702\n災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起\n\n05:35.722 --> 06:00.516\n做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色虎我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實\n\n06:02.657 --> 06:09.964\n我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部\n\n06:17.751 --> 06:43.814\n沐浴車就來了那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的0.2%而且他是距離很近所以要做處理很快\n\n06:43.814 --> 07:04.767\n很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做引子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣\n\n07:05.887 --> 07:23.036\n那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了\n\n07:23.496 --> 07:52.770\n我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃\n\n07:54.171 --> 08:07.996\n這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃\n\n08:18.973 --> 08:44.330\n艾文應該是150萬左右一公頃所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨髮補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵趙琳現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要趙琳還是淨髮很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150\n\n08:46.491 --> 09:13.167\n也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入那我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償\n\n09:14.981 --> 09:24.899\n為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟\n\n09:26.869 --> 09:47.011\n但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個30%能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟\n\n09:48.092 --> 10:14.046\n但是我們希望項目更多元一點那我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是禁法補償\n\n10:15.767 --> 10:33.882\n會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把他扣除掉就不能領淨法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的淨法補償被取消\n\n10:35.043 --> 10:50.382\n我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是\n\n10:51.242 --> 11:14.772\n國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村\n\n11:16.032 --> 11:30.960\n跟地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則\n\n11:32.759 --> 11:51.606\n我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示針對那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是\n\n11:52.586 --> 12:16.458\n原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了\n\n12:17.158 --> 12:41.952\n第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨防護牆會我們現在也在\n\n12:44.753 --> 13:02.005\n在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來研商非常感謝我其實我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物\n\n13:02.825 --> 13:23.217\n那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧\n\n13:24.458 --> 13:52.049\n這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米\n\n13:53.220 --> 14:16.639\n也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法消防法\n\n14:17.179 --> 14:44.262\n其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會\n\n14:45.703 --> 15:05.868\n有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業\n\n15:07.228 --> 15:19.053\n不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好謝謝吳立華委員質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長各位首長備詢謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.675,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":14.966,"end":32.096,"text":"務委員好院長好剛才我有聽到王委員有問一個問題就是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情那我其實在剛進入立法院的第一年當時水利署在牡丹水庫"},{"start":32.856,"end":49.379,"text":"我記得也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案不過留標十幾次後來有一位立法委員就是很積極的促成這件事情所以當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我澄清"},{"start":50.26,"end":65.903,"text":"因為地方是因為不了解所以傾向比較不同意後來是沒有設置但是多年後我才發現說這件事情雖然是合法的但是有弊案發生了就是那位立委"},{"start":67.605,"end":83.426,"text":"現在很多人其實很容易把我們的再生能源發展跟這一些破壞環境 弊案掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法"},{"start":88.265,"end":99.322,"text":"剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人"},{"start":100.123,"end":128.908,"text":"因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個是的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這是這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的"},{"start":129.768,"end":145.597,"text":"理解 以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對 包委喔 因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游 甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個"},{"start":146.537,"end":172.045,"text":"水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查 沒有任何安全的疑慮稍微說明一下比如說烏山口水庫來講的話"},{"start":174.326,"end":194.143,"text":"裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是"},{"start":195.104,"end":212.813,"text":"絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟"},{"start":213.553,"end":230.761,"text":"好 謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水"},{"start":231.821,"end":246.768,"text":"那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角"},{"start":247.888,"end":266.381,"text":"所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤"},{"start":267.318,"end":289.871,"text":"我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好 謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官"},{"start":290.772,"end":308.506,"text":"進駐到第一線來去支援協助大家都很辛苦那其中的這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置呢在國際間其實都已經有了可是呢這是莫拉克"},{"start":309.146,"end":334.702,"text":"災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起"},{"start":335.722,"end":360.516,"text":"做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到 園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色虎我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實"},{"start":362.657,"end":369.964,"text":"我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部"},{"start":377.751,"end":403.814,"text":"沐浴車就來了那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的0.2%而且他是距離很近所以要做處理很快"},{"start":403.814,"end":424.767,"text":"很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做引子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣"},{"start":425.887,"end":443.036,"text":"那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了"},{"start":443.496,"end":472.77,"text":"我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃"},{"start":474.171,"end":487.996,"text":"這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃"},{"start":498.973,"end":524.33,"text":"艾文應該是150萬左右一公頃所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨髮補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵趙琳現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要趙琳還是淨髮很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150"},{"start":526.491,"end":553.167,"text":"也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入那我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償"},{"start":554.981,"end":564.899,"text":"為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟"},{"start":566.869,"end":587.011,"text":"但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個30%能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟"},{"start":588.092,"end":614.046,"text":"但是我們希望項目更多元一點那我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是禁法補償"},{"start":615.767,"end":633.882,"text":"會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把他扣除掉就不能領淨法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的淨法補償被取消"},{"start":635.043,"end":650.382,"text":"我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是"},{"start":651.242,"end":674.772,"text":"國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村"},{"start":676.032,"end":690.96,"text":"跟地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則"},{"start":692.759,"end":711.606,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示針對那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是"},{"start":712.586,"end":736.458,"text":"原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了"},{"start":737.158,"end":761.952,"text":"第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項 一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好 那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨防護牆會 我們現在也在"},{"start":764.753,"end":782.005,"text":"在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來研商非常感謝我其實我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物"},{"start":782.825,"end":803.217,"text":"那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧"},{"start":804.458,"end":832.049,"text":"這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米"},{"start":833.22,"end":856.639,"text":"也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法 消防法"},{"start":857.179,"end":884.262,"text":"其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會"},{"start":885.703,"end":905.868,"text":"有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業"},{"start":907.228,"end":919.053,"text":"不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好謝謝吳立華委員質詢 謝謝謝謝卓院長 各位首長備詢 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時47分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好。剛才我聽到王委員有問一個問題，是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情，其實在我剛進入立法院的第一年，我記得當時水利署在牡丹水庫也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案，不過流標了十幾次，後來有一位立法委員很積極的促成這件事情，當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我陳情，地方是因為不了解，所以比較傾向不同意，因此後來是沒有設置。多年後我才發現，這件事情雖然是合法的，但是有弊案發生，就是那位立委，現在很多人其實很容易把再生能源發展跟破壞環境、弊案掛鉤在一起，而形成了混淆。所以想要請教一下院長，關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情，到底合不合法？"],["龔部長明鑫：我可不可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，剛剛王委員提到的是管理辦法裡面的第五條「於蓄水範圍內為下列使用行為，其行為人應向其管理機關（構）申請許可」，這個的確是三年為限，但是重要的是，這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的，如果你本身就是管理機關的話，你是可以透過招標自行設置，而不受這一條限制的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以基本上來講，烏山頭水庫因為管理機關是農業部，這是農業部招標的，所以法律上是沒有問題的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：了解。"],["龔部長明鑫：以上說明一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：彭部長也要補充嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民，他們也在意水質有沒有問題，事實上，從這個光電板的上游還有下游，甚至到淨水場，我們都做了非常嚴密的水質檢驗，沒有受到光電板任何的影響，同時，裡面的PFAS，就是含氟的有機化合物，以目前來看的話，PFAS是遠低於歐盟認定的標準，所以烏山頭水庫的水質是相當好的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以在法令上是合法，那水質檢測也是必須要做的事情，都是透明可查。"],["彭部長啓明：透明可查的，沒有任何安全的疑慮。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我說明一下，比如以烏山頭水庫來講，它裝設光電板的部分只有占湖面的百分之一點多一點而已，而且如果是以民生用電來講其實是微幅，它主要是灌溉用的，我們的取水口離這個光電板距離非常非常遠，而且每天都會做水質的檢測，到我們的淨水場裡面去，所以是絕對沒有問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想其實水面上設置光電板，全世界都在做，甚至中國也做得很大、很多，我想只要我們依法行政，在安全、環境都沒有任何疑慮的情況下，對於我們再生能源的發展，這是一個很重要的步驟，謝謝。那因為……"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以跟委員稍微補充一下？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["陳部長駿季：烏山頭水庫的水質檢測，特別是外界所擔心的陰離子界面活性劑，它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍，然後也遠低於食用的水，那現在有一個問題，就是因為外界一直在質疑，刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的，所以最近針對引用烏山頭水庫水源的這些農產品，價格開始在崩盤，特別是菱角。所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告，其實烏山頭水庫的水質絕對是符合我們的標準，而且灌溉用水、民生用水都是標準的，也希望外界不要刻意造成一些恐慌，造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我希望我們每個部會都能夠加強訊息的澄清，因為這對我們整個社會韌性的發展非常重要，謝謝各位部長的說明。","我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用，不過我要先跟院長說，這一次花蓮的災情，其實中央部會有非常多的長官進駐到第一線去支援、協助，大家都很辛苦。其中馬太鞍溪堰塞湖，其實我們在地的族人一直有一個訴求，就是希望中繼安置，其實中繼安置在國際間已經有了，可是這是莫拉克災後重建的一個遺憾，因為是直接做永久屋的安置。那為什麼要做中繼安置？其實很簡單，重建家園可能三個月、可能半年、可能一年，但是我們希望在這一段時間不是被安置到依親或者去租屋，或者是去旅社，我們希望的是依照原住民的集體性跟社會韌性，我們能夠為我們後來的重建家園在一起做討論，這個部分現在內政部也都有聽到、原民會也都有聽到，如果能夠把中繼安置做好，我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的掌聲。","另外，在立霧溪燕子口造成的堰塞湖，我也要謝謝，因為劉世芳部長跟我們曾智勇主委有站上來，其實我們在做安置的當下，族人跟我們陳情反映說他們需要衛浴設備，當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長，4個小時內協調國防部，沐浴車就來了，哇！這個得到族人很大的掌聲，覺得有政府、有安心、會做事，我也藉這個機會感謝你們。但是後面有一個問題，就是關於封閉的問題，因為燕子口堰塞湖，它的量體大概是馬太鞍溪堰塞湖的0.2%，而且它距離很近，所以要處理很方便，可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉，這個引起很大的討論，甚至是影響到我們的「向山致敬」政策，或者是我們的高山產業發展，那為什麼我會把這個做引子？我其實是要提到，我們人本來就是靠山吃山、靠海吃海，原住民也是一樣。","我先請院長了解，這幾年我們的獎勵造林提高了，年限縮短了，這個我很高興，後來禁伐補償金也要跟著獎勵造林提高而提高，謝謝行政院也做到了，我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款，讓我們有融資，這個也快成功了，但是速度有點慢，我要講的是包括「自然碳匯」納入方法學，這些都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用。","我今天要談的是坡地的農業，請院長猜一猜簡報上這個水果，原民會主委也可以幫忙猜，這個是水蜜桃啊！院長或主委，知不知道這一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺多少？如果沒有什麼寒害、蟲害，農民一年一公頃淨賺多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。水蜜桃一年一公頃大概是淨賺370萬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確實。"],["曾主任委員智勇：差不多350萬到370萬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我的數據是350萬，謝謝。一公頃的愛文芒果呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：愛文芒果一公頃應該是150萬左右。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以院長您聽到了，我其實問很多我們的族人，禁伐補償金一公頃是6萬元，獎勵造林現在一公頃是10萬，我問他們說：「你要造林還是禁伐？」很多人跟我講，特別是農民都說：「唉唷！我要種芒果比較好。」我問為什麼？因為他一年可以淨賺120萬到150萬，也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入。我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用，但是我們看一下簡報上的圓餅圖，在原住民族地區的林、農用地就占了94%，而私有的原保地林地占全國原保地林地47%，甚至幾乎是全數都拿去做禁伐補償，為什麼？因為限制很多，我們很感謝農業部林保署有一個政策叫做林下經濟，但是我們現在就想問了，因為禁伐補償的條件是竹、木的覆蓋率要達7成，所以我們想要問這30%能不能夠開放耕作？剛才我有講了，因為我們會受制於森林法，現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟，但是我們希望項目更多元一點。","我們看一下林下經濟的作物，現在有開放9種，全部都是臺灣原生種，可是跟院長報告，很多林下都長咖啡，很多的愛玉是跟著樹在攀爬，很多樹林底下的山蘇都到處長，但是會遇到一個狀況，就是禁伐補償會因為它不是林下經濟允許的作物就把它扣除掉，就不能領禁伐補償，這會帶來很多的困擾，因為土地的多元利用會碰到所謂水保法裡的超限利用，就會造成它的禁伐補償被取消，現在看水保法施行細則第二十六條，其實它也沒有禁止啊！它有但書、有例外規定，即「但不包括依……其他依法得為農、漁、牧業之墾殖、經營或使用。」特別是國土計畫法上路之後，未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把坡地的農業列入到農三的部分；我們也有一個原住民族土地使用管制規則，最新公告預告的草案就有提到，有關傳統耕作慣俗部分，涉及水土保持法、山坡地保育利用條例，可以透過鄉村地區整體規劃，就部落的實際需要，另訂土地使用管制規則。這個就是一線生機啊！所以我在這裡要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長，有沒有辦法修一下水土保持法的施行細則？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實這個議題在上次南投發生天然災害的時候，院長就有指示，那時候是針對公有林的部分，我們希望公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助，後來我們就從實際面來研議，我先講第一個就是原住民保留地禁伐補償的這些林業用地，不是說都不要去動它，以林業的角度來講，不能說都不動它，這反而是不好的，要適當地作經營的利用，所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：非常謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積，現在在公有地的部分，只要你保留30%的林地就可以了；第三個比較重要的是，您剛才講到咖啡，過去林下經濟的品項都是一個品項、一個品項開放，但現在是用原則性的，只要用有機的方法，不要影響生態就可以了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，我後面會講到。原民會主委，你聽到了吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長的態度就是政府的態度、就是院長的態度。我就繼續說，原民會要不要主動修禁伐補償？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會，我們現在也在想要怎麼主動來修正，我們也會跟農業部一起來研商。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：非常感謝。我前面談到的都是法令限制，至於現況方面我要講，因為氣候變遷的關係，所以我們必須要有一些耐旱作物作為戰爭的備糧，而小米就是全世界公認最好的旱作，可以提高糧食自給率。2023年全球訂定為小米年，很多國家包括中國在內，已經把這所謂的「粟」，也就是小米列為第二公糧，這就是為未來的世界做預備！所以我要特別謝謝教育部、農業部及原民會，從這個學期開始讓小米進入國中小的營養午餐，但實施的學校只有三十多所，為什麼？量不夠啊！為什麼量不夠？明明有獎勵，即農糧署的綠色環境給付計畫，但裡面全國適用的41項作物中沒有小米！也就是說種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付！雖然地方可以自提，不過目前全國只有臺東有提到小米，所以為什麼只有臺東人種小米？因為有獎勵啊！這些等一下再一起回答。","第二個，沒有獎勵也就罷了，裁罰卻很多，因為一燒墾就有空污法、消防法等問題。其實空污法也沒有禁止，但有很多縣市以辦法來逾越母法，給予全面禁止，以致沒有人敢山田燒墾。所以我希望消防法在這部分應該修正，只要在消防法第十四條第一項加上「但其他法律有特別規定者，不在此限」，這樣就給我們打開一線生機了。","回到問題核心，原民會的原基法第十三條提到，政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性應予保護。可是到現在這個法都還訂不出來，所以小米根本也長不出來，這樣要做什麼傳統作物的保護？我覺得現在是一個契機，因為我只剩下15秒時間，我希望原民會能就農糧署的有機農業不得來用這點去修法，希望竹林冒出來的不要計算為覆蓋率，還有讓梅子樹能夠增加，還有永續多元方案，我希望都可以一併修法，可以嗎，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。農業部有相關說明。"],["陳部長駿季：會後再跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢，張宏陸委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}}