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\"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 707.444, \"end\": 707.744, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 707.744, \"end\": 708.306, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 708.306, \"end\": 708.546, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 708.546, \"end\": 708.767, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"附\", \"start\": 708.767, \"end\": 708.967, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 708.967, \"end\": 708.987, \"score\": 0.003}]}, {\"start\": 710.393, \"end\": 734.705, \"text\": \"由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 710.393, \"end\": 711.093, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 711.093, \"end\": 711.213, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 711.213, \"end\": 711.394, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"中\", 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0.796}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"互\", \"start\": 1824.56, \"end\": 1824.72, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1824.72, \"end\": 1825.12, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1825.12, \"end\": 1825.24, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 1825.24, \"end\": 1825.561, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 1825.561, \"end\": 1825.721, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 1825.721, \"end\": 1825.741, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,967 --> 00:00:09,389\n謝謝主席麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢馬委員好\n\n2\n00:00:21,755 --> 00:00:45,797\n院長午安院長我們今天有幾個議題可能要就叫院長也跟院長做探討像這一次行政院提出了五千七百億這樣子的任性特別預算其中國訪的部分他大概佔了一千一百三十幾億那就這個部分因為在審查相關的所屬單位的\n\n3\n00:00:46,637 --> 00:01:08,060\n這個預算的時候其實有發現有一些真的是腐爛或者相當鞭裂的狀況其實是不太恰當的一個情形甚至像比如說像女廁裡面有小便斗這樣子的工項這其實都是複製貼上不曉得是太便宜形式還是其他的狀況可是其實它就是發生了\n\n4\n00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:26,799\n那我們近日又有媒體在報導海軍的大氣海洋局這個上校局長他為了執行這個國安任性特別預算案的這個過程當中其實也發生非常多的這個離譜的行徑比如說像海軍司令部這個所屬的單位當中大氣海洋局\n\n5\n00:01:27,279 --> 00:01:50,707\n其實他只是一個200多人的一個專業幕僚單位可是他們以往負責的是氣象海圖跟水文資料等等的預報那還有收整印製等業務這個局長上任以後他不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心更想在兩年之內執行21億的這樣的六個案子\n\n6\n00:01:52,268 --> 00:02:08,669\n21億這兩年那其中的三個案子共17億多其中有一個要重新興建具備防護電池脈衝能力的一棟三層樓的大樓還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建\n\n7\n00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:36,244\n五大作業中心除了構制相關的一些軟硬體以外還有包含專案開發的軟體這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎其實在審查過程當中我也有提出刪減的這個部分可是因為國防部也一直強調這非常重要我們不曉得這個海洋大氣海洋局其實他為什麼需要這個防護電池\n\n8\n00:02:37,965 --> 00:03:02,061\n賣充的這樣的能力他蓋這個大樓高達17億多可是現在我們才看到他到底是不是有需要那個局長其實就這個部分部長也上來了這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應說明我要請部長回答我先跟委員表達我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這樣的違規違法的情形\n\n9\n00:03:02,779 --> 00:03:27,616\n我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育而且我們要嚴格的管控不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為這國人看在心裡是非常痛心也對我們現在整體的國家安全是極大的危害那至於在預算過程當中我知道委員有提出過一些的意見那其中有一部分國防部也很虛心的接受也檢討這個我們虛心的接受檢討自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促\n\n10\n00:03:29,597 --> 00:03:38,243\n整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行\n\n11\n00:03:57,875 --> 00:04:19,853\n官委員給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些\n\n12\n00:04:21,533 --> 00:04:34,838\n媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些\n\n13\n00:04:35,768 --> 00:04:52,859\n我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的一個書面報告那至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用這個我們獲得的預算\n\n14\n00:04:56,448 --> 00:05:21,455\n部長長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討\n\n15\n00:05:23,056 --> 00:05:39,575\n採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟\n\n16\n00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:56,132\n像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是\n\n17\n00:05:57,173 --> 00:06:12,304\n他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院\n\n18\n00:06:13,084 --> 00:06:31,467\n南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解\n\n19\n00:06:32,648 --> 00:06:39,112\n這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的\n\n20\n00:06:52,000 --> 00:07:19,129\n我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高而你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮\n\n21\n00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:41,127\n我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查嚴查之後我們\n\n22\n00:07:42,288 --> 00:08:09,151\n會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料\n\n23\n00:08:09,611 --> 00:08:38,491\n因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好\n\n24\n00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:44,823\n因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查\n\n25\n00:09:09,199 --> 00:09:35,118\n用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且他是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V\n\n26\n00:09:36,519 --> 00:10:00,274\n台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以\n\n27\n00:10:00,914 --> 00:10:29,416\n也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立\n\n28\n00:10:30,157 --> 00:10:42,025\n在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊\n\n29\n00:10:43,561 --> 00:11:12,376\n未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個\n\n30\n00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:38,145\n審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序\n\n31\n00:11:39,125 --> 00:11:48,987\n第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件\n\n32\n00:11:50,393 --> 00:12:14,705\n由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎\n\n33\n00:12:18,052 --> 00:12:44,361\n委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點\n\n34\n00:12:45,121 --> 00:12:57,167\n第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項能量的籌建制\n\n35\n00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:24,199\n所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升但是剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個落馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵\n\n36\n00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:39,033\n一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易\n\n37\n00:13:40,094 --> 00:14:01,820\n不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的公合點數我們的公合點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的\n\n38\n00:14:07,381 --> 00:14:28,664\n我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的\n\n39\n00:14:29,565 --> 00:14:47,534\n我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據koreafly\n\n40\n00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:20,737\nFighterProgram他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造\n\n41\n00:15:21,457 --> 00:15:48,663\n因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中售期的升級這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件\n\n42\n00:15:50,647 --> 00:16:10,372\n我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取\n\n43\n00:16:11,426 --> 00:16:39,755\n這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣能量你必須要有這樣技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得\n\n44\n00:16:41,055 --> 00:16:59,483\n每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了\n\n45\n00:17:00,123 --> 00:17:22,923\n政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對\n\n46\n00:17:24,622 --> 00:17:37,435\n我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就\n\n47\n00:17:39,304 --> 00:18:08,530\n我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國防部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個\n\n48\n00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:24,000\n技術的創新的角度部長院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步\n\n49\n00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:38,092\n而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區\n\n50\n00:18:47,039 --> 00:19:04,323\n可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的\n\n51\n00:19:08,985 --> 00:19:27,594\n這個產業也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦或是一段時間還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候算400億\n\n52\n00:19:31,716 --> 00:19:50,004\n什麼時候算400億?你是賣給誰?賣給國防部?賣給內政部?賣給我們自己國家?我們可以出口嗎?現在我們的核心零件,我們最大的問題,我們希望大家可以靜下來。\n\n53\n00:19:51,044 --> 00:20:10,778\n去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航\n\n54\n00:20:12,859 --> 00:20:16,904\n加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個\n\n55\n00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:54,592\n其實你要創造這樣的產值不可能你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機\n\n56\n00:20:56,673 --> 00:21:16,554\n你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒\n\n57\n00:21:17,134 --> 00:21:34,629\n這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限貨權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的\n\n58\n00:21:37,851 --> 00:21:43,156\n他們下多少單?下多少單?下多少單?將近八千億美金八千萬美金是多少?\n\n59\n00:21:54,306 --> 00:22:20,053\n三億多我們要投入六百多億啊我們現在講的你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少\n\n60\n00:22:21,733 --> 00:22:50,572\n我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來我們有這個機會\n\n61\n00:22:55,015 --> 00:23:18,453\n我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16\n\n62\n00:23:19,954 --> 00:23:38,614\n戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來\n\n63\n00:23:39,946 --> 00:24:06,328\n我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先buildup起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以buildup起來因為廠商\n\n64\n00:24:07,529 --> 00:24:16,590\n也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去\n\n65\n00:24:17,555 --> 00:24:40,729\n我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以說有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體\n\n66\n00:24:43,070 --> 00:25:05,245\n黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府\n\n67\n00:25:06,306 --> 00:25:18,420\n身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長\n\n68\n00:25:24,326 --> 00:25:42,159\n第二個民主供應鏈台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另一個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說只做原則性的回覆謝謝因為我剛剛講的我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工\n\n69\n00:25:43,159 --> 00:26:02,722\n這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是\n\n70\n00:26:03,283 --> 00:26:25,596\n美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的這個狀況比較明顯那就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的\n\n71\n00:26:26,296 --> 00:26:50,569\n得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到\n\n72\n00:26:51,149 --> 00:27:19,177\n到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾趴其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的\n\n73\n00:27:19,797 --> 00:27:35,972\n這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要那這些供應鏈如果\n\n74\n00:27:36,713 --> 00:27:52,055\n避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段\n\n75\n00:27:54,096 --> 00:28:16,704\n現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們\n\n76\n00:28:17,444 --> 00:28:44,996\n可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國\n\n77\n00:28:46,116 --> 00:29:05,106\n這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像\n\n78\n00:29:07,807 --> 00:29:33,323\n中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局\n\n79\n00:29:33,903 --> 00:29:49,135\n像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路\n\n80\n00:29:50,015 --> 00:30:04,027\n當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題\n\n81\n00:30:07,069 --> 00:30:25,741\n我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做主發點院長我們互相好謝謝馬文先生\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6967\t9389\t謝謝主席麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢馬委員好\n21755\t45797\t院長午安院長我們今天有幾個議題可能要就叫院長也跟院長做探討像這一次行政院提出了五千七百億這樣子的任性特別預算其中國訪的部分他大概佔了一千一百三十幾億那就這個部分因為在審查相關的所屬單位的\n46637\t68060\t這個預算的時候其實有發現有一些真的是腐爛或者相當鞭裂的狀況其實是不太恰當的一個情形甚至像比如說像女廁裡面有小便斗這樣子的工項這其實都是複製貼上不曉得是太便宜形式還是其他的狀況可是其實它就是發生了\n68400\t86799\t那我們近日又有媒體在報導海軍的大氣海洋局這個上校局長他為了執行這個國安任性特別預算案的這個過程當中其實也發生非常多的這個離譜的行徑比如說像海軍司令部這個所屬的單位當中大氣海洋局\n87279\t110707\t其實他只是一個200多人的一個專業幕僚單位可是他們以往負責的是氣象海圖跟水文資料等等的預報那還有收整印製等業務這個局長上任以後他不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心更想在兩年之內執行21億的這樣的六個案子\n112268\t128669\t21億這兩年那其中的三個案子共17億多其中有一個要重新興建具備防護電池脈衝能力的一棟三層樓的大樓還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建\n129950\t156244\t五大作業中心除了構制相關的一些軟硬體以外還有包含專案開發的軟體這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎其實在審查過程當中我也有提出刪減的這個部分可是因為國防部也一直強調這非常重要我們不曉得這個海洋大氣海洋局其實他為什麼需要這個防護電池\n157965\t182061\t賣充的這樣的能力他蓋這個大樓高達17億多可是現在我們才看到他到底是不是有需要那個局長其實就這個部分部長也上來了這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應說明我要請部長回答我先跟委員表達我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這樣的違規違法的情形\n182779\t207616\t我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育而且我們要嚴格的管控不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為這國人看在心裡是非常痛心也對我們現在整體的國家安全是極大的危害那至於在預算過程當中我知道委員有提出過一些的意見那其中有一部分國防部也很虛心的接受也檢討這個我們虛心的接受檢討 自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促\n209597\t218243\t整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行\n237875\t259853\t官委員給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些\n261533\t274838\t媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊 篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營 未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些\n275768\t292859\t我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的一個書面報告那至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用這個我們獲得的預算\n296448\t321455\t部長 長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討\n323056\t339575\t採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟\n340756\t356132\t像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是\n357173\t372304\t他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院\n373084\t391467\t南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解\n392648\t399112\t這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的\n412000\t439129\t我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高而你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮\n440570\t461127\t我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查 嚴查之後我們\n462288\t489151\t會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料\n489611\t518491\t因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好\n519399\t524823\t因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查\n549199\t575118\t用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且他是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V\n576519\t600274\t台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以\n600914\t629416\t也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立\n630157\t642025\t在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊\n643561\t672376\t未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個\n674396\t698145\t審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序\n699125\t708987\t第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件\n710393\t734705\t由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎\n738052\t764361\t委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點\n765121\t777167\t第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項能量的籌建制\n778436\t804199\t所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升但是剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個落馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵\n805520\t819033\t一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易\n820094\t841820\t不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的公合點數我們的公合點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的\n847381\t868664\t我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的\n869565\t887534\t我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據koreafly\n899000\t920737\tFighter Program他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造\n921457\t948663\t因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中售期的升級這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件\n950647\t970372\t我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取\n971426\t999755\t這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣能量你必須要有這樣技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得\n1001055\t1019483\t每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了\n1020123\t1042923\t政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對\n1044622\t1057435\t我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就\n1059304\t1088530\t我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國防部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個\n1089370\t1104000\t技術的創新的角度部長 院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步\n1104360\t1118092\t而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區\n1127039\t1144323\t可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的\n1148985\t1167594\t這個產業 也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦 或是一段時間 還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對 那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億 第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候算400億\n1171716\t1190004\t什麼時候算400億?你是賣給誰?賣給國防部?賣給內政部?賣給我們自己國家?我們可以出口嗎?現在我們的核心零件,我們最大的問題,我們希望大家可以靜下來。\n1191044\t1210778\t去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航\n1212859\t1216904\t加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個\n1231480\t1254592\t其實你要創造這樣的產值不可能你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機\n1256673\t1276554\t你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒\n1277134\t1294629\t這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限貨權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的\n1297851\t1303156\t他們下多少單?下多少單?下多少單?將近八千億美金八千萬美金是多少?\n1314306\t1340053\t三億多 我們要投入六百多億啊我們現在講的 你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力 如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少\n1341733\t1370572\t我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能 建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的 您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2 F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難 這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達 電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來 我們有這個機會\n1375015\t1398453\t我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16\n1399954\t1418614\t戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來\n1419946\t1446328\t我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先build up起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來因為廠商\n1447529\t1456590\t也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去\n1457555\t1480729\t我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以說有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體\n1483070\t1505245\t黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府\n1506306\t1518420\t身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長\n1524326\t1542159\t第二個 民主供應鏈 台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個 我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另一個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說 只做原則性的回覆 謝謝因為我剛剛講的 我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工\n1543159\t1562722\t這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是\n1563283\t1585596\t美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的這個狀況比較明顯那就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的\n1586296\t1610569\t得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到\n1611149\t1639177\t到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾趴其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的\n1639797\t1655972\t這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣 立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要那這些供應鏈如果\n1656713\t1672055\t避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段\n1674096\t1696704\t現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們\n1697444\t1724996\t可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國\n1726116\t1745106\t這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像\n1747807\t1773323\t中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局\n1773903\t1789135\t像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路\n1790015\t1804027\t當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題\n1807069\t1825741\t我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做主發點院長 我們互相好 謝謝馬文先生\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢馬委員好\n院長午安院長我們今天有幾個議題可能要就叫院長也跟院長做探討像這一次行政院提出了五千七百億這樣子的任性特別預算其中國訪的部分他大概佔了一千一百三十幾億那就這個部分因為在審查相關的所屬單位的\n這個預算的時候其實有發現有一些真的是腐爛或者相當鞭裂的狀況其實是不太恰當的一個情形甚至像比如說像女廁裡面有小便斗這樣子的工項這其實都是複製貼上不曉得是太便宜形式還是其他的狀況可是其實它就是發生了\n那我們近日又有媒體在報導海軍的大氣海洋局這個上校局長他為了執行這個國安任性特別預算案的這個過程當中其實也發生非常多的這個離譜的行徑比如說像海軍司令部這個所屬的單位當中大氣海洋局\n其實他只是一個200多人的一個專業幕僚單位可是他們以往負責的是氣象海圖跟水文資料等等的預報那還有收整印製等業務這個局長上任以後他不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心更想在兩年之內執行21億的這樣的六個案子\n21億這兩年那其中的三個案子共17億多其中有一個要重新興建具備防護電池脈衝能力的一棟三層樓的大樓還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建\n五大作業中心除了構制相關的一些軟硬體以外還有包含專案開發的軟體這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎其實在審查過程當中我也有提出刪減的這個部分可是因為國防部也一直強調這非常重要我們不曉得這個海洋大氣海洋局其實他為什麼需要這個防護電池\n賣充的這樣的能力他蓋這個大樓高達17億多可是現在我們才看到他到底是不是有需要那個局長其實就這個部分部長也上來了這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應說明我要請部長回答我先跟委員表達我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這樣的違規違法的情形\n我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育而且我們要嚴格的管控不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為這國人看在心裡是非常痛心也對我們現在整體的國家安全是極大的危害那至於在預算過程當中我知道委員有提出過一些的意見那其中有一部分國防部也很虛心的接受也檢討這個我們虛心的接受檢討 自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促\n整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行\n官委員給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些\n媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊 篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營 未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些\n我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的一個書面報告那至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用這個我們獲得的預算\n部長 長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討\n採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟\n像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是\n他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院\n南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解\n這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的\n我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高而你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮\n我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查 嚴查之後我們\n會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料\n因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好\n因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查\n用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且他是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V\n台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以\n也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立\n在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊\n未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個\n審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序\n第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件\n由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎\n委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點\n第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項能量的籌建制\n所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升但是剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個落馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵\n一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易\n不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的公合點數我們的公合點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的\n我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的\n我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據koreafly\nFighter Program他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造\n因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中售期的升級這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件\n我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取\n這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣能量你必須要有這樣技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得\n每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了\n政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對\n我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就\n我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國防部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個\n技術的創新的角度部長 院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步\n而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區\n可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的\n這個產業 也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦 或是一段時間 還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對 那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億 第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候算400億\n什麼時候算400億?你是賣給誰?賣給國防部?賣給內政部?賣給我們自己國家?我們可以出口嗎?現在我們的核心零件,我們最大的問題,我們希望大家可以靜下來。\n去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航\n加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個\n其實你要創造這樣的產值不可能你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機\n你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒\n這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限貨權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的\n他們下多少單?下多少單?下多少單?將近八千億美金八千萬美金是多少?\n三億多 我們要投入六百多億啊我們現在講的 你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力 如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少\n我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能 建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的 您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2 F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難 這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達 電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來 我們有這個機會\n我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16\n戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來\n我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先build up起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來因為廠商\n也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去\n我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以說有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體\n黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府\n身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長\n第二個 民主供應鏈 台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個 我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另一個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說 只做原則性的回覆 謝謝因為我剛剛講的 我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工\n這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是\n美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的這個狀況比較明顯那就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的\n得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到\n到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾趴其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的\n這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣 立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要那這些供應鏈如果\n避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段\n現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們\n可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國\n這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像\n中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局\n像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路\n當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題\n我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做主發點院長 我們互相好 謝謝馬文先生\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.967 --> 00:09.389\n謝謝主席麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢馬委員好\n\n00:21.755 --> 00:45.797\n院長午安院長我們今天有幾個議題可能要就叫院長也跟院長做探討像這一次行政院提出了五千七百億這樣子的任性特別預算其中國訪的部分他大概佔了一千一百三十幾億那就這個部分因為在審查相關的所屬單位的\n\n00:46.637 --> 01:08.060\n這個預算的時候其實有發現有一些真的是腐爛或者相當鞭裂的狀況其實是不太恰當的一個情形甚至像比如說像女廁裡面有小便斗這樣子的工項這其實都是複製貼上不曉得是太便宜形式還是其他的狀況可是其實它就是發生了\n\n01:08.400 --> 01:26.799\n那我們近日又有媒體在報導海軍的大氣海洋局這個上校局長他為了執行這個國安任性特別預算案的這個過程當中其實也發生非常多的這個離譜的行徑比如說像海軍司令部這個所屬的單位當中大氣海洋局\n\n01:27.279 --> 01:50.707\n其實他只是一個200多人的一個專業幕僚單位可是他們以往負責的是氣象海圖跟水文資料等等的預報那還有收整印製等業務這個局長上任以後他不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心更想在兩年之內執行21億的這樣的六個案子\n\n01:52.268 --> 02:08.669\n21億這兩年那其中的三個案子共17億多其中有一個要重新興建具備防護電池脈衝能力的一棟三層樓的大樓還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建\n\n02:09.950 --> 02:36.244\n五大作業中心除了構制相關的一些軟硬體以外還有包含專案開發的軟體這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎其實在審查過程當中我也有提出刪減的這個部分可是因為國防部也一直強調這非常重要我們不曉得這個海洋大氣海洋局其實他為什麼需要這個防護電池\n\n02:37.965 --> 03:02.061\n賣充的這樣的能力他蓋這個大樓高達17億多可是現在我們才看到他到底是不是有需要那個局長其實就這個部分部長也上來了這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應說明我要請部長回答我先跟委員表達我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這樣的違規違法的情形\n\n03:02.779 --> 03:27.616\n我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育而且我們要嚴格的管控不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為這國人看在心裡是非常痛心也對我們現在整體的國家安全是極大的危害那至於在預算過程當中我知道委員有提出過一些的意見那其中有一部分國防部也很虛心的接受也檢討這個我們虛心的接受檢討自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促\n\n03:29.597 --> 03:38.243\n整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行\n\n03:57.875 --> 04:19.853\n官委員給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些\n\n04:21.533 --> 04:34.838\n媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些\n\n04:35.768 --> 04:52.859\n我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的一個書面報告那至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用這個我們獲得的預算\n\n04:56.448 --> 05:21.455\n部長長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討\n\n05:23.056 --> 05:39.575\n採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟\n\n05:40.756 --> 05:56.132\n像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是\n\n05:57.173 --> 06:12.304\n他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院\n\n06:13.084 --> 06:31.467\n南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解\n\n06:32.648 --> 06:39.112\n這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的\n\n06:52.000 --> 07:19.129\n我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高而你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮\n\n07:20.570 --> 07:41.127\n我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查嚴查之後我們\n\n07:42.288 --> 08:09.151\n會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料\n\n08:09.611 --> 08:38.491\n因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好\n\n08:39.399 --> 08:44.823\n因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查\n\n09:09.199 --> 09:35.118\n用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且他是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V\n\n09:36.519 --> 10:00.274\n台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以\n\n10:00.914 --> 10:29.416\n也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立\n\n10:30.157 --> 10:42.025\n在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊\n\n10:43.561 --> 11:12.376\n未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個\n\n11:14.396 --> 11:38.145\n審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序\n\n11:39.125 --> 11:48.987\n第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件\n\n11:50.393 --> 12:14.705\n由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎\n\n12:18.052 --> 12:44.361\n委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點\n\n12:45.121 --> 12:57.167\n第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項能量的籌建制\n\n12:58.436 --> 13:24.199\n所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升但是剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個落馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵\n\n13:25.520 --> 13:39.033\n一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易\n\n13:40.094 --> 14:01.820\n不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的公合點數我們的公合點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的\n\n14:07.381 --> 14:28.664\n我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的\n\n14:29.565 --> 14:47.534\n我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據koreafly\n\n14:59.000 --> 15:20.737\nFighterProgram他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造\n\n15:21.457 --> 15:48.663\n因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中售期的升級這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件\n\n15:50.647 --> 16:10.372\n我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取\n\n16:11.426 --> 16:39.755\n這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣能量你必須要有這樣技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得\n\n16:41.055 --> 16:59.483\n每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了\n\n17:00.123 --> 17:22.923\n政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對\n\n17:24.622 --> 17:37.435\n我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就\n\n17:39.304 --> 18:08.530\n我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國防部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個\n\n18:09.370 --> 18:24.000\n技術的創新的角度部長院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步\n\n18:24.360 --> 18:38.092\n而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區\n\n18:47.039 --> 19:04.323\n可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的\n\n19:08.985 --> 19:27.594\n這個產業也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦或是一段時間還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候算400億\n\n19:31.716 --> 19:50.004\n什麼時候算400億?你是賣給誰?賣給國防部?賣給內政部?賣給我們自己國家?我們可以出口嗎?現在我們的核心零件,我們最大的問題,我們希望大家可以靜下來。\n\n19:51.044 --> 20:10.778\n去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航\n\n20:12.859 --> 20:16.904\n加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個\n\n20:31.480 --> 20:54.592\n其實你要創造這樣的產值不可能你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機\n\n20:56.673 --> 21:16.554\n你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒\n\n21:17.134 --> 21:34.629\n這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限貨權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的\n\n21:37.851 --> 21:43.156\n他們下多少單?下多少單?下多少單?將近八千億美金八千萬美金是多少?\n\n21:54.306 --> 22:20.053\n三億多我們要投入六百多億啊我們現在講的你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少\n\n22:21.733 --> 22:50.572\n我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來我們有這個機會\n\n22:55.015 --> 23:18.453\n我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16\n\n23:19.954 --> 23:38.614\n戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來\n\n23:39.946 --> 24:06.328\n我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先buildup起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以buildup起來因為廠商\n\n24:07.529 --> 24:16.590\n也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去\n\n24:17.555 --> 24:40.729\n我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以說有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體\n\n24:43.070 --> 25:05.245\n黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府\n\n25:06.306 --> 25:18.420\n身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長\n\n25:24.326 --> 25:42.159\n第二個民主供應鏈台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另一個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說只做原則性的回覆謝謝因為我剛剛講的我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工\n\n25:43.159 --> 26:02.722\n這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是\n\n26:03.283 --> 26:25.596\n美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的這個狀況比較明顯那就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的\n\n26:26.296 --> 26:50.569\n得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到\n\n26:51.149 --> 27:19.177\n到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾趴其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的\n\n27:19.797 --> 27:35.972\n這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要那這些供應鏈如果\n\n27:36.713 --> 27:52.055\n避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段\n\n27:54.096 --> 28:16.704\n現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們\n\n28:17.444 --> 28:44.996\n可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國\n\n28:46.116 --> 29:05.106\n這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像\n\n29:07.807 --> 29:33.323\n中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局\n\n29:33.903 --> 29:49.135\n像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路\n\n29:50.015 --> 30:04.027\n當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題\n\n30:07.069 --> 30:25.741\n我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做主發點院長我們互相好謝謝馬文先生\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.967,"end":9.389,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢馬委員好"},{"start":21.755,"end":45.797,"text":"院長午安院長我們今天有幾個議題可能要就叫院長也跟院長做探討像這一次行政院提出了五千七百億這樣子的任性特別預算其中國訪的部分他大概佔了一千一百三十幾億那就這個部分因為在審查相關的所屬單位的"},{"start":46.637,"end":68.06,"text":"這個預算的時候其實有發現有一些真的是腐爛或者相當鞭裂的狀況其實是不太恰當的一個情形甚至像比如說像女廁裡面有小便斗這樣子的工項這其實都是複製貼上不曉得是太便宜形式還是其他的狀況可是其實它就是發生了"},{"start":68.4,"end":86.799,"text":"那我們近日又有媒體在報導海軍的大氣海洋局這個上校局長他為了執行這個國安任性特別預算案的這個過程當中其實也發生非常多的這個離譜的行徑比如說像海軍司令部這個所屬的單位當中大氣海洋局"},{"start":87.279,"end":110.707,"text":"其實他只是一個200多人的一個專業幕僚單位可是他們以往負責的是氣象海圖跟水文資料等等的預報那還有收整印製等業務這個局長上任以後他不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心更想在兩年之內執行21億的這樣的六個案子"},{"start":112.268,"end":128.669,"text":"21億這兩年那其中的三個案子共17億多其中有一個要重新興建具備防護電池脈衝能力的一棟三層樓的大樓還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建"},{"start":129.95,"end":156.244,"text":"五大作業中心除了構制相關的一些軟硬體以外還有包含專案開發的軟體這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎其實在審查過程當中我也有提出刪減的這個部分可是因為國防部也一直強調這非常重要我們不曉得這個海洋大氣海洋局其實他為什麼需要這個防護電池"},{"start":157.965,"end":182.061,"text":"賣充的這樣的能力他蓋這個大樓高達17億多可是現在我們才看到他到底是不是有需要那個局長其實就這個部分部長也上來了這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應說明我要請部長回答我先跟委員表達我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這樣的違規違法的情形"},{"start":182.779,"end":207.616,"text":"我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育而且我們要嚴格的管控不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為這國人看在心裡是非常痛心也對我們現在整體的國家安全是極大的危害那至於在預算過程當中我知道委員有提出過一些的意見那其中有一部分國防部也很虛心的接受也檢討這個我們虛心的接受檢討 自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促"},{"start":209.597,"end":218.243,"text":"整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行"},{"start":237.875,"end":259.853,"text":"官委員給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些"},{"start":261.533,"end":274.838,"text":"媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊 篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營 未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些"},{"start":275.768,"end":292.859,"text":"我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的一個書面報告那至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用這個我們獲得的預算"},{"start":296.448,"end":321.455,"text":"部長 長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討"},{"start":323.056,"end":339.575,"text":"採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟"},{"start":340.756,"end":356.132,"text":"像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是"},{"start":357.173,"end":372.304,"text":"他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院"},{"start":373.084,"end":391.467,"text":"南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解"},{"start":392.648,"end":399.112,"text":"這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的"},{"start":412,"end":439.129,"text":"我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高而你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮"},{"start":440.57,"end":461.127,"text":"我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查 嚴查之後我們"},{"start":462.288,"end":489.151,"text":"會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料"},{"start":489.611,"end":518.491,"text":"因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好"},{"start":519.399,"end":524.823,"text":"因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查"},{"start":549.199,"end":575.118,"text":"用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且他是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V"},{"start":576.519,"end":600.274,"text":"台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以"},{"start":600.914,"end":629.416,"text":"也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立"},{"start":630.157,"end":642.025,"text":"在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊"},{"start":643.561,"end":672.376,"text":"未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個"},{"start":674.396,"end":698.145,"text":"審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序"},{"start":699.125,"end":708.987,"text":"第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件"},{"start":710.393,"end":734.705,"text":"由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎"},{"start":738.052,"end":764.361,"text":"委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點"},{"start":765.121,"end":777.167,"text":"第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項能量的籌建制"},{"start":778.436,"end":804.199,"text":"所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升但是剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個落馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵"},{"start":805.52,"end":819.033,"text":"一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易"},{"start":820.094,"end":841.82,"text":"不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的公合點數我們的公合點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的"},{"start":847.381,"end":868.664,"text":"我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的"},{"start":869.565,"end":887.534,"text":"我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據koreafly"},{"start":899,"end":920.737,"text":"Fighter Program他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造"},{"start":921.457,"end":948.663,"text":"因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中售期的升級這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件"},{"start":950.647,"end":970.372,"text":"我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取"},{"start":971.426,"end":999.755,"text":"這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣能量你必須要有這樣技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得"},{"start":1001.055,"end":1019.483,"text":"每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了"},{"start":1020.123,"end":1042.923,"text":"政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對"},{"start":1044.622,"end":1057.435,"text":"我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就"},{"start":1059.304,"end":1088.53,"text":"我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國防部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個"},{"start":1089.37,"end":1104,"text":"技術的創新的角度部長 院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步"},{"start":1104.36,"end":1118.092,"text":"而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區"},{"start":1127.039,"end":1144.323,"text":"可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的"},{"start":1148.985,"end":1167.594,"text":"這個產業 也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦 或是一段時間 還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對 那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億 第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候算400億"},{"start":1171.716,"end":1190.004,"text":"什麼時候算400億?你是賣給誰?賣給國防部?賣給內政部?賣給我們自己國家?我們可以出口嗎?現在我們的核心零件,我們最大的問題,我們希望大家可以靜下來。"},{"start":1191.044,"end":1210.778,"text":"去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航"},{"start":1212.859,"end":1216.904,"text":"加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個"},{"start":1231.48,"end":1254.592,"text":"其實你要創造這樣的產值不可能你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機"},{"start":1256.673,"end":1276.554,"text":"你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒"},{"start":1277.134,"end":1294.629,"text":"這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限貨權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的"},{"start":1297.851,"end":1303.156,"text":"他們下多少單?下多少單?下多少單?將近八千億美金八千萬美金是多少?"},{"start":1314.306,"end":1340.053,"text":"三億多 我們要投入六百多億啊我們現在講的 你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力 如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少"},{"start":1341.733,"end":1370.572,"text":"我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能 建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的 您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2 F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難 這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達 電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來 我們有這個機會"},{"start":1375.015,"end":1398.453,"text":"我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16"},{"start":1399.954,"end":1418.614,"text":"戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來"},{"start":1419.946,"end":1446.328,"text":"我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先build up起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來因為廠商"},{"start":1447.529,"end":1456.59,"text":"也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去"},{"start":1457.555,"end":1480.729,"text":"我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以說有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體"},{"start":1483.07,"end":1505.245,"text":"黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府"},{"start":1506.306,"end":1518.42,"text":"身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長"},{"start":1524.326,"end":1542.159,"text":"第二個 民主供應鏈 台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個 我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另一個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說 只做原則性的回覆 謝謝因為我剛剛講的 我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工"},{"start":1543.159,"end":1562.722,"text":"這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是"},{"start":1563.283,"end":1585.596,"text":"美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的這個狀況比較明顯那就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的"},{"start":1586.296,"end":1610.569,"text":"得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到"},{"start":1611.149,"end":1639.177,"text":"到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾趴其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的"},{"start":1639.797,"end":1655.972,"text":"這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣 立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要那這些供應鏈如果"},{"start":1656.713,"end":1672.055,"text":"避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段"},{"start":1674.096,"end":1696.704,"text":"現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們"},{"start":1697.444,"end":1724.996,"text":"可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國"},{"start":1726.116,"end":1745.106,"text":"這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像"},{"start":1747.807,"end":1773.323,"text":"中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局"},{"start":1773.903,"end":1789.135,"text":"像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路"},{"start":1790.015,"end":1804.027,"text":"當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題"},{"start":1807.069,"end":1825.741,"text":"我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做主發點院長 我們互相好 謝謝馬文先生"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":311,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（15時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安。我們今天有幾個議題可能要就教院長，也要跟院長來做探討，像這一次行政院提出了5,700億的韌性特別預算，其中國防的部分大概占了一千一百三十幾億，就這個部分，因為在審查相關所屬單位預算的時候，發現有一些真的是浮濫或者編列不太恰當的情形，甚至像女廁裡面還有小便斗這樣的工項，這其實都是複製、貼上，不曉得是太便宜行事還是有其他的狀況，可是它就是發生了。","近日又有媒體報導海軍大氣海洋局的上校局長，在執行國安韌性特別預算案的過程當中，其實也發生非常多離譜的行徑，在海軍司令部所屬的單位當中，大氣海洋局只是一個兩百多人的專業幕僚單位，他們以往負責的是氣象、海圖跟水文資料等等的預報還有蒐整、印製等業務，可是這位局長上任以後，不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心，更想在兩年之內，執行6個案子，共21億，其中的三個案子共十七億多，裡面有一個是要重新興建一棟三層樓高且具備防護電磁脈衝能力的大樓，還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建五大作業中心，除了購置一些相關的軟硬體以外，還有包含專案開發的軟體，這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎？其實在審查過程當中，我也有提出刪減這個部分，可是因為國防部一直強調這個非常重要，我們不曉得這個大氣海洋局為什麼需要防護電磁脈衝這樣的能力，蓋這個大樓的經費高達十七億多，可是現在我們才看到它到底是不是有需要，部長也上來了，就這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應、說明一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請部長回答，我先跟委員表達，我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這種違規、違法的情形，我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育，而且我們要嚴格的管控，不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為，因為國人看在心裡是非常痛心，也對我們現在整體國家安全有極大的危害。至於在預算審查過程當中，我知道委員有提出一些意見，對其中一部分國防部也很虛心的接受，也進行檢討，這部分我們虛心的接受、檢討並自我改進，未來也希望委員繼續督促，但是對整個防衛韌性、整個國安韌性這方面的工作，我們還是要持續來進行。請部長來回答。"],["馬委員文君：關於這個部分，因為時間的關係，部長，我想我們不要在這裡討論細節，其實後來對這一筆預算我們有同意，我們並沒有刪減，可是現在突然又發生這個事情，如果有這樣子的狀況，在沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下，其實對這筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：請委員給我30秒就好了。"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，這筆十七億多的預算是整建的部分，而且並沒有浮編的狀況，那我們後續會審慎的來管制這個預算，讓它不至於有任何被濫用的狀況。至於媒體所報導的這些事情像蒐集演訓機密資訊、擅改春節戰備輪值、私自讓中資背景公司入營、運送浮標入營未採保密安全措施、接受廠商招待餐敘等等，我們經過初步調查，而且審查了佐證資料，海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情事，但是我還是要求他們要給我一份詳細的書面報告。至於預算的部分，我們一定會審慎來運用我們所獲得的預算。"],["馬委員文君：部長，在長官還在的情況之下，如果去裡面用問卷調查，我想沒有人敢寫啦！關於這個部分的客觀調查，後續你們看怎麼處理，不過在這裡要跟院長、部長說，這一件事情事實上並不像週刊所刊登的內容這麼單純，本席接獲民眾檢舉，林倉玉上校在邀請相關的設備商、營造商進行會勘、研討採購標案內容的過程當中，他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討，這個都有照片，甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有po出來，這個非常的清楚，而且都可以用他的英文名字去查，甚至他跟我們六聯隊下轄的C-130運輸大隊其實關係也都非常密切，從他個人的社群媒體網站可以看得出他非常吃得開，可是他的人際關係如何是另外一回事。那這一位特定人士陳先生跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的，而且在大陸的宜航航空學院、南通航運職業技術學院及上海宜航通用有限公司跟陳先生的關係，我們請國防部還有院長要一併調查，對於這樣的學術單位到底跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼，我們也要深入了解。為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下說明，其實應該要先將這個主官調離現職，才有辦法真的深入調查。就像部長非常的生氣，因為我們有用陸製的警監系統，有這樣的狀況，在我們所有監視器裡面都有陸製零件的時候，其實我們是不能接受的，一樣，這個大氣海洋局我們花了這麼高額，甚至還要用脈衝防護的方式來興建一棟大樓，可見它要做的是什麼，如果它是重要的，就一定要查清楚他的背景、相關資料等等，這個是不是應該要去做一個考量？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，這些相關的預算是作為整建，不是興建，這是第一個。第二個，剛剛委員所提到的週刊上面的這些報導，還有委員垂詢的這些事項，因為都涉及到相關的細節，我想也沒有時間在這邊一一的回復，但我們會有一個詳細的報告，當然海軍也要嚴查，嚴查之後，我們會跟社會做一個澈底說明。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我說的不是只有工程而已，我說的不是只有預算，因為它只要納入特別預算，其實就不會受到審查，這是特別預算比較特別的地方。可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切，甚至是有交流的，如果有這樣的背景，我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料，因為包括內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算，那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了國家整體海疆的安全，他如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合，這個應該要調查清楚，這是我們要提出來的。今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明，但是你們還是要調查，請院長跟部長下去以後，這個部分如果做了調查，請提供書面報告給本席，還有立法院，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，因為我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的說明，但我們一定會詳細調查。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們沒有要你說明，沒關係，你調查清楚，我是希望你調查，因為我們把照片也呈現出來，他上面的英文名，你們也可以去查一下，他的背景資料其實是很清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們還是要勿枉勿縱。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，針對這個事情的調查，國防部說不是事實……"],["馬委員文君：好，調查以後我們再來討論，沒有關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我要求國防部不放過任何的蛛絲馬跡，一定要用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍。"],["馬委員文君：因為這個對我們很重要，而且它是有機敏性的，我們就等待我們的調查結果，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，在這裡我也要請教，空軍花了一千四百多億把現役的141架F-16A/B升級到F-16V的標準，也以近2,500億特別預算購置了66架F-16V，臺灣其實會變成擁有兩百餘架F-16型戰鬥機，我們在亞太地區是最大的戰機使用國。當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量，曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化、在地化，並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體體系，也希望帶動民間的航太產業。2019年在行政院院長、經濟部還有國防部官員的見證底下，洛克希德馬丁與漢翔有簽署協議書，當時是推動成立F-16戰機的亞太地區維修中心，那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作，還和美方在商談當中，漢翔的F-16維修中心在2020年成立，那時候在招商會當中，也吸引了110家廠商參加，而且有69家廠商表達有能力、有意願加入航太國家隊，未來整體產業效益上看2,000億元，2020年到現在已經過了5年，到目前為止，其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益。","2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會，那時候透露已經有超過百項F-16系統的零件可以在臺灣就地維修，可是我們現在看到審計部最新公布的決算報告，他在查核F-16戰機維修中心推動情形有指出三點，器材裝備、維修項目缺乏法源依據，這是第一個。第二個，F-16戰機維修中心建置的能量、品項尚未完成認證程序。第三個，到去年年底，空軍司令部統計影響F-16型戰機妥善率前30項的相關零附件，F-16維修中心有維修能量的只有2個品項。我們有30項維持妥善率的重要品項，維修中心只能做2項，也就是說，如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡，院長跟部長，你們認為如果在戰爭的時候，會有原廠的技師來到臺灣幫我們維修嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個就法源的部分，由空軍認證的部分，我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國防部委託法人團體從事研發產製維修作業要點來辦理，我們把已經頒認的品項，還有含未來規劃頒認的品項，我們都納入國防部的產合會報來認證，以符合相關的法規規定，這是第一點。第二點，在品項的部分，我們從109年漢翔成立F-16維修中心到現在，是完成了372項能量的籌建制，所以將器材送到國外維修的修復時間，原來平均要457天，現在縮短到兩百天內，所以還是有能夠提升……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我想你沒有聽清楚我說的……"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是剛剛委員提到的是關鍵品項。"],["馬委員文君：對、對！"],["顧部長立雄：我必須坦誠地說，這些關鍵的品項跟洛馬這邊來談，並不是那麼容易，這一點確實是事實，也就是說，他對於關鍵品項部分的釋出，這個叫作……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係，我先提出來，我們講到了關鍵的品項，現在在這裡要提出來討論，我們跟洛馬談判好像沒有那麼順利、沒有那麼容易，這是不應該的！因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F-16型戰機，而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣的MOU、跟他簽署了這樣的協議，而且我們付出了非常高額的工合點數，我們的工合點數有一億多點，包括鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案，這兩個加起來，這些都是真金白銀換來的，我們花的金額、我們買F-16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額預算去提供給他們，可是在後續他應該給我們的……我們剛剛說的工合點數，其實他很多的技術跟其他相關的零附件及一些有利的或相關的訓練是應該要提供給我們，我們付出了那麼多的美元點，可是他通通沒有給我們，那是我們失職。我們沒有辦法對美方要求，當我們在說美方對我們多好、多好的時候，我們付出那麼多，卻沒有辦法得到這些，這對我們非常非常地不公平！","部長，在這裡我們還是要求，這不是沒有辦法跟他談判，他本來就應該要給我們，因為我們有付錢，我們還有付出我們的美元點，而且很重要的是韓國在1990年代依據Korean Fighter Program取得授權的生產線，在1990年時他們沒有多少架欸！在1994年到2004年期間，其國內就可以裝配製造140架KF-16，也就是F-16C/D，韓國已經可以維修，甚至可以製造，因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系，後續還自行推動中壽期的升級。這是韓國做到的，他在1994年到2004年就做到了，我們花了大筆的預算、付出了那麼多的美元點，我們應該強烈要求美方，甚至洛克希德馬丁公司就必須要給我們這樣子的能量，否則在戰時，我們根本沒有辦法運用，尤其是這些關鍵的零組件。"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，就我所知，即使是韓國，也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地。第二個，我們當然會持續向洛馬爭取原廠能量，而且也要向美國政府請求支持技轉的授權，因為這跟委員剛剛所提到的韌性是有關係的，我們會持續來爭取。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望這個部分可以很快達到，因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心，既然你要成立亞太維修中心，表示你必須要有這樣的能量，你必須要有這樣技術，更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件；當你都沒有的時候，你告訴全體人民我們要花這麼多錢、我們要買這麼多的F-16戰機，然後我們可以自己維修，但到現在還是不行，甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們，第一架都還沒有到臺灣。所以我們希望據理力爭，我們不是只有一直付出，這樣會讓人家覺得每次都說我們是「盤子」的原因就是這樣。所以在這裡，我們還是要求行政院及國防部應該要據理力爭，而且可以儘速達到這樣的標準，好不好？","我們也有很多預算投入的重心，接下來就是無人機了，政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心，我們比較擔心的是，我們每次喊出來的後來都變成口號，因為我們提到2030年產值要達到400億臺幣，我們光是看各部會在無人機領域直接跟間接的預算，未來5年至少會上看600億以上，對不對？我們的支出、要買無人機什麼的這些，初步看起來搞不好還更高。"],["顧部長立雄：無人機的統籌計畫是由經濟部負責，而國防部的部分，我們有兩大政策目標，第一個，我們要讓在地生產的能量能夠提升，這樣子才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性。第二個，要有這樣子的提升，才能夠產生一定的產業規模，這樣才能夠支撐產業的發展。國防部作為可能無人機最大的需求者，我們會儘量跟產業一起協同合作，以跟進整個國際上面的技術創新腳步。"],["馬委員文君：部長、院長，尤其在無人機、無人載台、載具的部分，其實它是未來一個重心發展的方向，我們也樂見，臺灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步的，而且是有舉足輕重的地位，就跟我們的半導體一樣，可是現在看起來，我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣，是因為什麼原因？我剛剛提到我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億臺幣，可是比如我們花了上百億規劃一個園區可能要製造或者無人機的產業園區，還包括對外的採購，也包括對內的採購，我粗估無人機這樣子的花費至少有600億以上，後續一定會更高。可是國家花600億換來產值400億的產業，也就是產業總值是低於政府投入，臺灣目前無人機……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是一年。"],["龔部長明鑫：那是一……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是一年或是一段時間，才會一直持續增加。"],["馬委員文君：沒有，你們是提到2030年。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，會往後一直再增加，不會就停在這裡。"],["馬委員文君：可是2030年的產值是400億，第一年要怎麼創造400億？"],["龔部長明鑫：第一年400億……"],["馬委員文君：第一年400億是什麼時候……"],["龔部長明鑫：隔年會比400億還要一直更多……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候算400億？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候算400億？"],["龔部長明鑫：2030年。"],["馬委員文君：你們是賣給誰？賣給國防部、賣給內政部、賣給我們自己國家？"],["龔部長明鑫：國防部跟內政部只有一部分，出口部分我們已經有一些訂單了，包括中東歐……"],["馬委員文君：我們可以出口嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以啊！已經有了。"],["馬委員文君：現在核心零件……我們最大的問題，我們希望大家可以靜下來去思考無人機產業怎麼發展，我們不要當代工，如果當代工，就沒有辦法做到這樣，因為無人機所有相關的產業不是非常高的門檻，很多其他國家都可以做，不是只有臺灣可以做，臺灣目前的核心零件，比如抗干擾導航、加密資料鏈、EO/IR光電模組、馬達及推進系統等等，其實多仰賴進口，如果這些關鍵技術及出口沒有辦法獲得相關管道的時候，其實要創造這樣的產值是不可能的，甚至只是用國家的錢在帶動自己的產業而已，這是我們所擔心的，我們在這裡先提醒。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為未來正要起步，所以我們在這裡先提醒。"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我向委員報告，已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單，這是事實。"],["馬委員文君：可以拿到多少訂單？你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機？你的比例……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，現在至少……"],["馬委員文君：對啊！如果要這樣算的話，你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單……"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對、對。"],["馬委員文君：是什麼樣的訂單？有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌，人家以更高的價格賣給其他國家，甚至賣回給臺灣，這就已經不是我們的產值……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是、不是，這是上次……"],["馬委員文君：這是我先提醒的，我們未來還有時間，我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況，無人機產業或無人載具既然是國家重大的發展方向，我們一步一步把我們目前……"],["龔部長明鑫：那是在國防航太展時，波蘭及中東歐國家來這邊下單的。"],["馬委員文君：他們下多少單？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：下多少單？"],["龔部長明鑫：波蘭……"],["馬委員文君：下多少單？"],["龔部長明鑫：將近8,000億美金。"],["馬委員文君：8,000億美金？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，是8,000萬美金，sorry。"],["馬委員文君：8,000萬美金是多少？"],["龔部長明鑫：三億多吧！"],["馬委員文君：三億多？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["馬委員文君：但我們要投入六百多億啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦，總是要有開始嘛！"],["馬委員文君：我們現在講的，你在這裡換算……你的訂單，我們不是沒有辦法賣，我說的是要有競爭力，如果你要……"],["龔部長明鑫：另外也有廠商拿到美國的，它是警消用，雖然不是……"],["馬委員文君：我們跟美國買多少？美國很多的警消，其實到後來他們還是買大疆，我們在這裡不是要討論現在國內賣出多少，剛剛……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，他們也是要去紅的。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我們要建立非紅供應鏈……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，他們也是要去紅的。"],["顧部長立雄：讓無人機建立完全自主能量的可能性，顯然您剛剛質疑F-16，我們的痛處就在F-16類似這樣的一個發動機，能夠產生高性能戰機發動機的自主能量，這個確實是有困難，我們必須要承認。但是無人機需要的馬達、電池等等，我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟規模，動能自然就會起來，我們有這個機會，我們應該有這個機會在無人機領域。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我剛剛唸了幾個核心的零件，目前我們臺灣量能其實還是不足的，希望可以趕快，如果我們要發展，當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位。我剛剛是提醒，如果後續五年後我們再看看現在的樣子，就跟剛剛提到F-16戰機的情況是一樣的，所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講F-16。今天無人機也是一樣，我們投入很多，可是我們創造的價值或者產值很少，我覺得這個可能就不值得，這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分。接下來……"],["龔部長明鑫：委員，我可不可以講一下，因為我們現在最重要的無人機，它是要把我們的能量、可以製造的能量先build up起來，老實說因為現在沒有那麼大量的需求，我們不像波蘭或像中東歐國家，他們現在就是很大量的需求，他們需要很大的，我們跟他合作。我不曉得，但我們希望不要，或許哪一天我們需要的時候，那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來，因為廠商……也有很多的大廠願意加入這個行列，只是說因為現在沒有那個量，所以它沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去。"],["馬委員文君：我們要在這裡提醒的是，因為其他國家也可以做，如果我們要做應該要怎麼做，就是把現在還不足的……而且我剛剛講的那四大能量……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我了解。"],["馬委員文君：是非常重要的，就像我們國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際……"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們現在一直在做。"],["馬委員文君：就是因為它最重要的引擎，他沒有辦法自己做。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們可以有好的飛控軟體，好的通訊模組，我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業的這一塊，只要這些大廠願意投入，有一定的經濟規模上來，我覺得是看得到完全自製的可能性。"],["馬委員文君：當很多廠商跟你報喜不報憂，或者它只講好的時候，我們應該要審慎的去做通盤的考量，因為身為政府，你看的是全面性的，而不是單一的來源，或者我們自己付出的很多，然後獲得的很少，這是我們今天要特別提到的。"],["卓院長榮泰：三點跟委員報告，無人機產業，我們起步並不是最快，但因為這樣子，我們有更多學習的機會，可以快速的成長；第二個，民主供應鏈，臺灣絕對有它的重要性；第三個，我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易，哪一個國家需要跟我們合作，我想我們可以另案再跟委員報告，這裡還是讓我們只做這原則性的回復，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：好。我剛剛講的，我有提到一個重點，我們不要只是代工……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會、不會。"],["馬委員文君：可能未來在這個面向上面，我們希望其實是可以按部就班，做出自己相關的一個能量，這是我們今天特別提的。","另外一點時間，大家現在還是很關切，它也還沒有落幕，就是美國對臺灣關稅的問題，美國對臺有一個重大協議，我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼，表面上看起來好像利多，可是事實上，顯然現在我們是依附的狀況比較明顯。就這個部分，我們希望後續……因為我們到現在還沒有很明確的得到相關的訊息，我們看到台積電過去了，現在甚至整個生態系，大家覺得非常錯愕。之前剛開始台積電要過去投資的時候，政府是很大聲的告訴所有人民，我們所有其他的產業鏈跟供應鏈是不會過去的，還是會留在臺灣，但現在不是，現在是全部也要到美國去，所以這個對我們的影響非常大。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，這個必須要說明。"],["馬委員文君：另外，還有我們的農業採購、國防採購，還有國防預算要達到幾個百分比其實都是順應美國的要求。此外，我們對美的投資，在這個部分看到我們所有的條件全部都限縮，我們完全沒有自主權，也沒有選擇權，我們是配合美方的要求在做……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是。"],["卓院長榮泰：這要跟委員說明，任何對美的投資，大廠必須要根留臺灣、立足臺灣，這個是最優先的要求，同時他們的產業供應鏈自然有其產業布局，他若有需要，對於這些供應鏈，如果要降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成，他們有可能這樣考慮，但還是一樣要根留臺灣，以臺灣作為基礎才能做嘗試。目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量，都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的階段。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們當然希望像您說的這樣子，可是就我們現在感受到的，包括全世界各國其實也有一樣的感受，不是只有臺灣，可是臺灣是面臨更嚴峻的狀況，因為我們沒有辦法據理力爭，我們甚至不敢跟美國談，我不知道是不是不敢跟他們談……"],["卓院長榮泰：有，我們一直在談啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們一直在談。"],["馬委員文君：可能我們受到的……或者我們付出的比其他國家還要多。現在來看，其實臺灣是極度的單邊倚靠，像美方這兩年在推動的經貿政策，他們不再是一個自由貿易，其實他們比較像是供應鏈的主權化，意思就是以安全為名，重構全球供應鏈的主導權，從根本上讓盟國在技術跟生產都臣服於美國，這部分其實我們已經發現到，我們可以參考其他的國家，比如說像印度，印度雖然買俄國的石油，可是他們還是參與印太，而且美國也讓步了，還跟他們技術合作；另外還有巴基斯坦……"],["龔部長明鑫：臺灣石油可能就不買了。"],["馬委員文君：他們向中國靠攏，可是美國還是恢復其軍事援助，而且他們也獲得債務的減免；還有土耳其，北約是內外兼容，可是他們還是繼續留在北約，而且他們已經換得了黑海的談判角色；還有東協各國多邊投資的協定，他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局。像這些國家，他們在談判的過程當中，其實他們都有第二條路，我們臺灣現在可能比較侷限，或者我們現在面臨最大的問題就是把自己侷限在一個框架裡面，我們只有一條路，當美國做調整或改變的時候，甚至還有人提到，有很多專家、學者提過，我們臺灣可能會被犧牲或出賣時，我們沒有第二個選擇，這是我們應該要正視的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦，我們在民主供應鏈裡面站穩了很重要的角色。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們軍事採購有國家國防的需求，我們產業採購有產業各方面製造的需求，我們投資也有產業自主布局全球的需求，農業採購也有我們進口跟消費習慣、其他畜牧業的需求，我們都用這樣的需求出發。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們互相檢視，希望臺灣越來越好、越來越安全。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。下面一位委員質詢結束之後，我們將會休息10分鐘。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}}