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\"矯\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 703.85, \"end\": 704.05, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 704.05, \"end\": 704.25, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"校\", \"start\": 704.25, \"end\": 704.43, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 704.43, \"end\": 704.59, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 704.59, \"end\": 704.771, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 704.771, \"end\": 705.271, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 705.271, \"end\": 705.491, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 705.491, \"end\": 705.671, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 705.671, \"end\": 706.272, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 706.272, \"end\": 706.492, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 706.492, \"end\": 706.832, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"措\", \"start\": 706.832, \"end\": 707.012, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 707.012, \"end\": 707.192, 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\"end\": 803.184, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 803.184, \"end\": 803.844, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 803.844, \"end\": 803.964, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 803.964, \"end\": 804.184, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 804.184, \"end\": 804.525, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 804.525, \"end\": 804.545, \"score\": 0.002}]}, {\"start\": 805.885, \"end\": 832.041, \"text\": \"也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 805.885, \"end\": 806.045, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 806.045, \"end\": 807.026, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 807.026, \"end\": 807.566, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 807.566, \"end\": 807.886, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": 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\"部\", \"start\": 824.696, \"end\": 825.036, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 825.036, \"end\": 825.557, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 825.557, \"end\": 825.717, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 825.717, \"end\": 825.837, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 825.837, \"end\": 826.217, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 826.217, \"end\": 826.417, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 826.417, \"end\": 826.577, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 826.577, \"end\": 826.737, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 826.737, \"end\": 827.138, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 827.138, \"end\": 827.298, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 827.298, \"end\": 828.979, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 828.979, \"end\": 829.179, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 829.179, \"end\": 830.42, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"矯\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 830.42, \"end\": 830.62, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 830.62, \"end\": 830.86, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 830.86, \"end\": 831.0, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 831.0, \"end\": 831.26, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 831.26, \"end\": 832.021, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 832.021, \"end\": 832.041, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 833.762, \"end\": 857.382, \"text\": \"從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 833.762, \"end\": 834.203, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"员\", \"start\": 968.154, \"end\": 968.174, \"score\": 0.993}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,953 --> 00:00:31,076\n主席麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的市部長韓院長在這裡說出口不好意思卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢議員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢\n\n2\n00:00:32,284 --> 00:00:54,764\n那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務\n\n3\n00:00:56,005 --> 00:01:09,830\n那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工\n\n4\n00:01:11,771 --> 00:01:39,611\n我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的\n\n5\n00:01:40,622 --> 00:02:01,362\n實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題\n\n6\n00:02:02,243 --> 00:02:27,965\n為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有徵訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了\n\n7\n00:02:30,207 --> 00:02:48,371\n什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的\n\n8\n00:02:52,131 --> 00:03:13,877\n司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是\n\n9\n00:03:16,601 --> 00:03:44,100\n整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果來承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費\n\n10\n00:03:45,841 --> 00:04:08,414\n民間團體孤大概他一個孩子安置的話要五萬到八萬可是我們政府大概給兩萬三的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年的安置機構總共有110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是只有做男子兒兒少的話只做40%\n\n11\n00:04:10,222 --> 00:04:19,786\n可是只有兩家願意承接我們司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得\n\n12\n00:04:23,913 --> 00:04:42,927\n現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜\n\n13\n00:04:44,068 --> 00:05:11,035\n那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分啦也有分成三級在給部長男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法對對對所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個\n\n14\n00:05:12,616 --> 00:05:26,612\n機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家\n\n15\n00:05:27,172 --> 00:05:41,928\n那表示什麼民間他的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個示範或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是他後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是\n\n16\n00:05:42,669 --> 00:05:59,690\n教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說\n\n17\n00:06:01,954 --> 00:06:12,250\n我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責\n\n18\n00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:31,752\n是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決\n\n19\n00:06:32,692 --> 00:06:58,910\n為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託\n\n20\n00:07:00,231 --> 00:07:26,509\n安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下\n\n21\n00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:42,576\n可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成\n\n22\n00:07:43,857 --> 00:08:02,169\n孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢\n\n23\n00:08:02,785 --> 00:08:23,104\n結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發暗示機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣\n\n24\n00:08:24,125 --> 00:08:41,099\n怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初\n\n25\n00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:58,130\n院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生\n\n26\n00:08:58,810 --> 00:09:21,319\n所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容是\n\n27\n00:09:21,926 --> 00:09:41,997\n第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個\n\n28\n00:09:43,308 --> 00:10:11,952\n面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友對兒童教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護\n\n29\n00:10:13,192 --> 00:10:34,117\n是麻煩石部長因為為什麼接避者我們還是要保護他那謝謝部長那接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部謝謝麻煩請法務部長教育部長那想先問院長就是掃腳條例目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下\n\n30\n00:10:35,034 --> 00:11:01,860\n因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說\n\n31\n00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:19,214\n在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了\n\n32\n00:11:20,235 --> 00:11:48,293\n1.6倍整體的通報量也成長了85%所以我說剛剛講說沒有與教育為處於核心的話就會發生這種狀況所以我們當然有希望說那是不是應該要來做一個如果能夠掃腳條例趕快出來的話那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點而且生對生的衝突在今年5月我們的少年矯正學校的霸凌防治跟處理具體措施正式上路之後\n\n33\n00:11:48,840 --> 00:12:05,592\n這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在角質體系的時候\n\n34\n00:12:06,212 --> 00:12:20,420\n跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送行在那時候的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們\n\n35\n00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:36,622\n我們站得趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的\n\n36\n00:12:38,244 --> 00:13:05,358\n對他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部司有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育\n\n37\n00:13:06,398 --> 00:13:24,545\n還有就失智的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做\n\n38\n00:13:25,885 --> 00:13:52,041\n也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼\n\n39\n00:13:53,762 --> 00:14:17,382\n從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些\n\n40\n00:14:18,422 --> 00:14:46,370\n輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無缺我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的一個正名的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡面\n\n41\n00:14:46,869 --> 00:14:52,311\n還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意\n\n42\n00:14:53,109 --> 00:15:22,490\n最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是少小的條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大\n\n43\n00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:32,857\n不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理那是用什麼政府的\n\n44\n00:16:07,012 --> 00:16:08,174\n好谢谢林月琴委员\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4953\t31076\t主席麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的市部長韓院長在這裡說出口不好意思 卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢議員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢\n32284\t54764\t那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務\n56005\t69830\t那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工\n71771\t99611\t我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的\n100622\t121362\t實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題\n122243\t147965\t為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有徵訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了\n150207\t168371\t什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的\n172131\t193877\t司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是\n196601\t224100\t整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果來承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費\n225841\t248414\t民間團體孤大概他一個孩子安置的話要五萬到八萬可是我們政府大概給兩萬三的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年的安置機構總共有110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是只有做男子兒兒少的話只做40%\n250222\t259786\t可是只有兩家願意承接我們司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得\n263913\t282927\t現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜\n284068\t311035\t那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費 專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分啦也有分成三級在給部長 男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法對對對 所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個\n312616\t326612\t機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家\n327172\t341928\t那表示什麼民間他的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個示範或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是他後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是\n342669\t359690\t教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說\n361954\t372250\t我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責\n373840\t391752\t是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決\n392692\t418910\t為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託\n420231\t446509\t安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下\n448240\t462576\t可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成\n463857\t482169\t孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢\n482785\t503104\t結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發暗示機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣\n504125\t521099\t怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初\n521559\t538130\t院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生\n538810\t561319\t所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容是\n561926\t581997\t第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個\n583308\t611952\t面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友對兒童教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好 謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策 訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護\n613192\t634117\t是 麻煩石部長因為為什麼 接避者我們還是要保護他那謝謝部長那接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部 謝謝麻煩請法務部長 教育部長那想先問院長就是掃腳條例目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下\n635034\t661860\t因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說\n663100\t679214\t在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了\n680235\t708293\t1.6倍整體的通報量也成長了85%所以我說剛剛講說沒有與教育為處於核心的話就會發生這種狀況所以我們當然有希望說那是不是應該要來做一個如果能夠掃腳條例趕快出來的話那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點而且生對生的衝突在今年5月我們的少年矯正學校的霸凌防治跟處理具體措施正式上路之後\n708840\t725592\t這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在角質體系的時候\n726212\t740420\t跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送行在那時候的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們\n741560\t756622\t我們站得趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的\n758244\t785358\t對 他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部司有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育\n786398\t804545\t還有就失智的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做\n805885\t832041\t也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼\n833762\t857382\t從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些\n858422\t886370\t輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無缺我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的一個正名的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡面\n886869\t892311\t還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意\n893109\t922490\t最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是少小的條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大\n922870\t932857\t不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理那是用什麼 政府的\n967012\t968174\t好谢谢林月琴委员\n","txt":"主席麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的市部長韓院長在這裡說出口不好意思 卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢議員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢\n那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務\n那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工\n我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的\n實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題\n為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有徵訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了\n什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的\n司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是\n整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果來承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費\n民間團體孤大概他一個孩子安置的話要五萬到八萬可是我們政府大概給兩萬三的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年的安置機構總共有110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是只有做男子兒兒少的話只做40%\n可是只有兩家願意承接我們司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得\n現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜\n那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費 專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分啦也有分成三級在給部長 男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法對對對 所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個\n機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家\n那表示什麼民間他的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個示範或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是他後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是\n教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說\n我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責\n是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決\n為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託\n安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下\n可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成\n孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢\n結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發暗示機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣\n怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初\n院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生\n所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容是\n第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個\n面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友對兒童教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好 謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策 訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護\n是 麻煩石部長因為為什麼 接避者我們還是要保護他那謝謝部長那接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部 謝謝麻煩請法務部長 教育部長那想先問院長就是掃腳條例目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下\n因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說\n在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了\n1.6倍整體的通報量也成長了85%所以我說剛剛講說沒有與教育為處於核心的話就會發生這種狀況所以我們當然有希望說那是不是應該要來做一個如果能夠掃腳條例趕快出來的話那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點而且生對生的衝突在今年5月我們的少年矯正學校的霸凌防治跟處理具體措施正式上路之後\n這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在角質體系的時候\n跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送行在那時候的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們\n我們站得趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的\n對 他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部司有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育\n還有就失智的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做\n也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼\n從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些\n輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無缺我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的一個正名的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡面\n還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意\n最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是少小的條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大\n不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理那是用什麼 政府的\n好谢谢林月琴委员\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.953 --> 00:31.076\n主席麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的市部長韓院長在這裡說出口不好意思卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢議員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢\n\n00:32.284 --> 00:54.764\n那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務\n\n00:56.005 --> 01:09.830\n那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工\n\n01:11.771 --> 01:39.611\n我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的\n\n01:40.622 --> 02:01.362\n實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題\n\n02:02.243 --> 02:27.965\n為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有徵訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了\n\n02:30.207 --> 02:48.371\n什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的\n\n02:52.131 --> 03:13.877\n司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是\n\n03:16.601 --> 03:44.100\n整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果來承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費\n\n03:45.841 --> 04:08.414\n民間團體孤大概他一個孩子安置的話要五萬到八萬可是我們政府大概給兩萬三的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年的安置機構總共有110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是只有做男子兒兒少的話只做40%\n\n04:10.222 --> 04:19.786\n可是只有兩家願意承接我們司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得\n\n04:23.913 --> 04:42.927\n現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜\n\n04:44.068 --> 05:11.035\n那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分啦也有分成三級在給部長男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法對對對所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個\n\n05:12.616 --> 05:26.612\n機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家\n\n05:27.172 --> 05:41.928\n那表示什麼民間他的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個示範或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是他後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是\n\n05:42.669 --> 05:59.690\n教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說\n\n06:01.954 --> 06:12.250\n我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責\n\n06:13.840 --> 06:31.752\n是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決\n\n06:32.692 --> 06:58.910\n為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託\n\n07:00.231 --> 07:26.509\n安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下\n\n07:28.240 --> 07:42.576\n可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成\n\n07:43.857 --> 08:02.169\n孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢\n\n08:02.785 --> 08:23.104\n結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發暗示機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣\n\n08:24.125 --> 08:41.099\n怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初\n\n08:41.559 --> 08:58.130\n院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生\n\n08:58.810 --> 09:21.319\n所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容是\n\n09:21.926 --> 09:41.997\n第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個\n\n09:43.308 --> 10:11.952\n面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友對兒童教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護\n\n10:13.192 --> 10:34.117\n是麻煩石部長因為為什麼接避者我們還是要保護他那謝謝部長那接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部謝謝麻煩請法務部長教育部長那想先問院長就是掃腳條例目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下\n\n10:35.034 --> 11:01.860\n因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說\n\n11:03.100 --> 11:19.214\n在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了\n\n11:20.235 --> 11:48.293\n1.6倍整體的通報量也成長了85%所以我說剛剛講說沒有與教育為處於核心的話就會發生這種狀況所以我們當然有希望說那是不是應該要來做一個如果能夠掃腳條例趕快出來的話那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點而且生對生的衝突在今年5月我們的少年矯正學校的霸凌防治跟處理具體措施正式上路之後\n\n11:48.840 --> 12:05.592\n這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在角質體系的時候\n\n12:06.212 --> 12:20.420\n跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送行在那時候的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們\n\n12:21.560 --> 12:36.622\n我們站得趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的\n\n12:38.244 --> 13:05.358\n對他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部司有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育\n\n13:06.398 --> 13:24.545\n還有就失智的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做\n\n13:25.885 --> 13:52.041\n也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼\n\n13:53.762 --> 14:17.382\n從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些\n\n14:18.422 --> 14:46.370\n輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無缺我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的一個正名的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡面\n\n14:46.869 --> 14:52.311\n還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意\n\n14:53.109 --> 15:22.490\n最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是少小的條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大\n\n15:22.870 --> 15:32.857\n不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理那是用什麼政府的\n\n16:07.012 --> 16:08.174\n好谢谢林月琴委员\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.953,"end":31.076,"text":"主席麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的市部長韓院長在這裡說出口不好意思 卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢議員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢"},{"start":32.284,"end":54.764,"text":"那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務"},{"start":56.005,"end":69.83,"text":"那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工"},{"start":71.771,"end":99.611,"text":"我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的"},{"start":100.622,"end":121.362,"text":"實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題"},{"start":122.243,"end":147.965,"text":"為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有徵訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了"},{"start":150.207,"end":168.371,"text":"什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的"},{"start":172.131,"end":193.877,"text":"司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是"},{"start":196.601,"end":224.1,"text":"整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果來承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費"},{"start":225.841,"end":248.414,"text":"民間團體孤大概他一個孩子安置的話要五萬到八萬可是我們政府大概給兩萬三的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年的安置機構總共有110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是只有做男子兒兒少的話只做40%"},{"start":250.222,"end":259.786,"text":"可是只有兩家願意承接我們司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得"},{"start":263.913,"end":282.927,"text":"現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜"},{"start":284.068,"end":311.035,"text":"那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費 專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分啦也有分成三級在給部長 男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法對對對 所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個"},{"start":312.616,"end":326.612,"text":"機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家"},{"start":327.172,"end":341.928,"text":"那表示什麼民間他的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個示範或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是他後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是"},{"start":342.669,"end":359.69,"text":"教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說"},{"start":361.954,"end":372.25,"text":"我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責"},{"start":373.84,"end":391.752,"text":"是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決"},{"start":392.692,"end":418.91,"text":"為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託"},{"start":420.231,"end":446.509,"text":"安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下"},{"start":448.24,"end":462.576,"text":"可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成"},{"start":463.857,"end":482.169,"text":"孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢"},{"start":482.785,"end":503.104,"text":"結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發暗示機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣"},{"start":504.125,"end":521.099,"text":"怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初"},{"start":521.559,"end":538.13,"text":"院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生"},{"start":538.81,"end":561.319,"text":"所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容是"},{"start":561.926,"end":581.997,"text":"第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個"},{"start":583.308,"end":611.952,"text":"面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友對兒童教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好 謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策 訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護"},{"start":613.192,"end":634.117,"text":"是 麻煩石部長因為為什麼 接避者我們還是要保護他那謝謝部長那接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部 謝謝麻煩請法務部長 教育部長那想先問院長就是掃腳條例目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下"},{"start":635.034,"end":661.86,"text":"因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說"},{"start":663.1,"end":679.214,"text":"在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了"},{"start":680.235,"end":708.293,"text":"1.6倍整體的通報量也成長了85%所以我說剛剛講說沒有與教育為處於核心的話就會發生這種狀況所以我們當然有希望說那是不是應該要來做一個如果能夠掃腳條例趕快出來的話那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點而且生對生的衝突在今年5月我們的少年矯正學校的霸凌防治跟處理具體措施正式上路之後"},{"start":708.84,"end":725.592,"text":"這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在角質體系的時候"},{"start":726.212,"end":740.42,"text":"跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送行在那時候的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們"},{"start":741.56,"end":756.622,"text":"我們站得趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的"},{"start":758.244,"end":785.358,"text":"對 他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部司有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育"},{"start":786.398,"end":804.545,"text":"還有就失智的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做"},{"start":805.885,"end":832.041,"text":"也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼"},{"start":833.762,"end":857.382,"text":"從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些"},{"start":858.422,"end":886.37,"text":"輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無缺我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的一個正名的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡面"},{"start":886.869,"end":892.311,"text":"還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意"},{"start":893.109,"end":922.49,"text":"最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是少小的條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大"},{"start":922.87,"end":932.857,"text":"不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理那是用什麼 政府的"},{"start":967.012,"end":968.174,"text":"好谢谢林月琴委员"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（16時32分）主席，麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的石部長。"],["主席：韓院長在這裡。"],["林委員月琴：說錯了，不好意思，是卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：今天整天質詢，院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員月琴：今天希望能夠跟您討論司法少年處遇的問題。司法處遇少年牽扯到的事實上是整個社安網，我一直再三強調，社安網不是社工的社安網，需要的是跨單位的緊密合作才能夠串聯所有的服務，可是跨部會要能夠緊密串聯的話，事實上就要有明確的事權分工。看到事權分工，我們要問的是，因為社安網的分工我上個會期就質詢過，衛福部也看到這樣的問題，說那我們就跨部會來開一個會，針對於一主責多協力原則提出討論。看起來很好，也就是今天依法主責，如果有法的話，就由法的主管單位主責；如果法沒有的話就是政策，如果政策歸屬在誰，責任就在誰身上；再沒有的話，就是依對象，比如這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的；實在都沒有的話，就是共同協商。看起來這種分工原則，聽起來很有道理，可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題，而這些問題恐怕就是要院長才有辦法來做協調，我們今天就提出三個問題。","首先我想談的是難置兒少跟安置機構困境的問題，為什麼要談這個題目呢？因為今年少事法的院版草案已經送到立法院來，我留意到少事法已經有增訂轉換安置機構處分的條文，我認為這樣的調整立意非常良善，而且也非常符合兒權公約所談的多元化的處遇和符合孩子的最佳利益。不過，問題來了，什麼樣的問題呢？我想看了這張簡報應該也知道，今天政府部門看到的是，今天如果事實上在講床位的時候，我們就看到似乎整個的司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導，幾乎都是轉感化教育，所以十年來銳減了9成。","為什麼會有這樣的狀況？司法院少家廳也說，因為就是沒有安置機構，最後就只能去做感化教育。可是整個來看的話，我們看到的是什麼呢？因為機構的資源有限，少年照顧的難度事實上非常高，過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多，可是他要安置，那司法少年在安置的時候，他的問題也非常的多，可是民間機構說，如果它來承接的話，它的人力事實上是一個問題，有沒有專業人力？人力能不能符合我們所謂的人數跟少年的比例？還有一個就是經費。民間團體估計安置一個孩子大概要5萬到8萬元，可是我們政府大概是給2萬3,000元的安置費用，這也是為什麼大家不願意來承接的原因。","臺灣113年的安置機構總共有110家，可是目前只有15家有補助，而且這15家裡面，難置兒少的部分只做40%，只有兩家願意承接我們的司法的安置少年，所以難怪司法院在安置的時候，他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去。所以我想問部長和院長，你們覺得現在為什麼機構不願意做？到底可以有什麼樣的解方？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來，等於都是混收，所以對這一類的司法少年，確實對安置機構來講，他的照顧上是比較複雜。我們現在給安置機構的大概分成安置費、專業服務費，按照那個等級也有所區分，也有分成三級在給。"],["林委員月琴：部長，難置兒安置有時候要到1比1，可是實際上人力不足的話，根本就沒辦法。"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是調整那個費用，特別是對於機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來，然後再就專業服務費的部分，看看能不能夠來做調整。"],["林委員月琴：部長，可不可以先考量到，因為110家只有15家願意做，而且司法安置也只有兩家，難置兒的話則只有15家，表示民間經營的痛點，政府可能難以去理解，我認為應該要有個試辦或研究計畫來釐清原因到底出在哪邊，是人力還是經費，還是後端呢？因為我過去在民間常常處理到，在教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到支應，即學校就是在安置機構旁邊，搞不好他要到更遠的地方才能就讀，這都會造成安置機構人力上的一個成本，可不可以先做這樣一個研究之後？了解到問題的時候，才能夠去解決問題。"],["石部長崇良：委員，這個試辦計畫我們可以來支持。"],["林委員月琴：好。再來也想問部長跟院長，你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責？是衛福部呢？還是地方政府？還是司法院？為什麼我會這樣子問？老實說，目前的法定權責交織，就是看似各部會都有一個工作，都有管理責任，可是如果少年出現一些問題的時候，沒有一個單位可以來做解決，為什麼這樣講？司法院說，衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關，可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任；衛福部又說，司法安置的主責應該是法院跟保護官，機構實質上一樣的，管理是屬於地方的責任。雙方講的都沒有錯，可是地方政府事實上是關鍵，但問題來了，地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者，一方面他要拜託安置機構來提供服務，可是一方面也要透過管理手段去管理他，所以就會有球員兼裁判的問題。中央固然有政策方向跟原則，可是在地方自治底下，若實際落地，又會因為承接的……對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一，所以就會導致出現不同的委託的、委辦的合作模式。","在此想要來談一下，我們可以看到監察院在111年已經提出來，也就是說，司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理模式，這就是地方在執行時不一的狀況會造成孩子的權益受到損害。去年我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待，就是放任機構這樣子做，結果今年吹哨者竟然被懲罰。表示114年現在問題都還是存在著，同樣是放任機構不當對待，而且對於揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制，好像大家都希望不要有人揭發安置機構的一些瘡疤一樣，可是誰提誰倒楣！今天怎麼會是加害人的罰鍰比較低，然後吹哨者反而是用最高的處罰？那誰以後敢去揭這種瘡疤？當然我們會覺得那是地方，對！可是我想中央也不能夠拿掉這個責任，就像當初院長也是在花蓮一旦發生事情的時候，馬上就去救災了，所以這事實上是孩子的權益，怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候，花蓮縣政府竟然沒有處理，就坐任這樣的事情發生！","所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來協助，協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理，並且要提出一些資源，因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題，不知道院長這邊……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是監察院提出的報告內容，是嗎？"],["林委員月琴：第二個事實上是我的，因為我們已經是揭發的，倒不是監察院。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這不是監察院揭發的內容。"],["林委員月琴：對，他也已經提出來。所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有？因為現在我手頭上又還有另外一個安置機構，也是同樣在花蓮縣，也是有這樣的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：那就請衛福部去進行了解一下，到底長期管理失當的問題現在有沒有一個面對問題的改善計畫？或是我們要做什麼樣的協助？我想這個除了衛福部之外，對小朋友、對兒童的教育等各種方面，都要把它納進來，我們一併討論。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。石部長。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，確實過去我們大概都是訂政策、訂原則，還有給計畫的一些補助，地方是在落實執行，不過剛剛特別提到有關於揭弊者的保護，那麼當然……"],["林委員月琴：是，麻煩石部長，因為揭弊者我們還是要保護他。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長。","接下來，主席，麻煩兩個鄭部長，就是法務部跟教育部。謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩請法務部長、教育部長備詢。"],["林委員月琴：想先問院長，少矯校條例目前進度是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明一下。"],["林委員月琴：因為距離上次公告已經大概3年了，我知道今年5月已經送院審核，所以這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度？因為我們很關心，為什麼這麼關心呢？因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為處遇核心，教育的能量就是沒有辦法進來，為什麼會這樣子提呢？我們看到這個就知道，在重大案件裡會看到的是什麼？也就是有關我們的重大通報案件，近3年的矯正重大案件通報，包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象，而且3年增加了1.6倍，整體通報量也成長了85%。所以我剛才說沒有以教育為處遇核心的話，就會發生這種狀況，因此我們當然希望如果少矯校條例能夠趕快出來的話，那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點。而且生對生的衝突在今年5月，我們的少年矯正學校霸凌防制及處理具體措施正式上路之後，這些重大通報事件的後續處理，我們也希望能夠把霸凌這個議題涵蓋在其中，才能夠真正去解決問題。","所以想問兩個部長，在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同合作？在矯治體系的時候。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員先報告，有關少矯校條例那部分的修法草案，要落實就是以教育為核心，部分條文修正草案已經送行政院，行政院的審查也在今年10月2號有給我們，我們再趕緊來研議。剛才委員關心的就是我們兩個部會……"],["林委員月琴：對，兩個部會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不是合作無間？因為像我們少矯學校的課綱也都是按照教育部的課綱來做的。另外委員關心的性平霸凌……"],["林委員月琴：對，它成長了1.6倍。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關霸凌跟性平這部分，在霸凌那部分，法務部有少年矯正學校霸凌防制及處理具體措施，這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的機制，也跟教育部有充分的合作。"],["林委員月琴：不過，部長，我比較希望是從預防角度上來看，不是通報，所以你的教育還有師資的知能跟敏感度，希望能夠再度地成長，而不是等到後端才來處理。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這部分我們……"],["林委員月琴：還有生對生這一塊，也想問兩位部長，生對生的衝突，後續輔導機制你們到底怎麼做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，那個……"],["鄭部長英耀：也跟委員補充報告，有關少年矯正學校的所有老師有關性平或者關於霸凌部分，我們都有定期在辦理老師的徵人，這一個部分我們兩個部會是合作無間的。另外，我們還有一個少年矯正教育指導委員會，從過去來講是由教育部……基本上因為考量到少年矯正學校的輔導老師流動性太高，所以經過這個委員會，而且法務部同意，從明年開始專任的輔導老師也由法務部來遴聘。我想整個從學校的一些輔導課程到性平、霸凌等等，包括預防性的這些輔導，我們跟法務部是合作無間。"],["林委員月琴：是，我非常肯定在特殊教育，就是矯正學校在輔導處遇上的努力，不管是輔導空間跟專輔人力的員額，還有最近引入了適應體育。不過還是要特別提醒，將近有10%具有特鑑證明的孩子是在少矯學校裡面，還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊，請你們還是要特別去注意。","當然就是期待院長這邊，針對於安置機構的困境，應該要去正視這個問題；第二個，是不是檢討中央跟地方針對委辦安置機構的管理模式；還有第三個，教育部跟法務部應該積極的合作，當然我們更期待是少矯條例能夠趕快送進來。","最後就是一個小問題，也是一個重大的問題，一樣也是部會的，因為演算法的危害非常大，不管是監察院8月提出來報告，也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極怠惰，要求我們改善對TikTok社群的安全管理，當然也國外也是有，所以最後就問院長，這個到底應該是哪一個部會的工作？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛安置的部分，我會請法務部、教育部跟衛福部都進來整合。"],["林委員月琴：那TikTok？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望有政委，我想時中政委跟明昕政委能夠來共同來協助。"],["林委員月琴：那院長就TikTok這一塊要做一些處理的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分，數發部要強力的來要求，如果對於學生的傷害這麼大，我們的作為應該比現在更強。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員質詢、謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來，本日最後一位質詢的委員，現在請游顥委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}}