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{\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:12,741\n好謝謝召委我們有請吳主委請主委萬委員好\n\n2\n00:00:18,936 --> 00:00:35,833\n好主委好主委我本期记得在国客会在去年113年的时候12月27号曾经发布过新网稿指出财化法修正会影响200亿的科技预算有没有这件事有那后来今年有影响吗有今年有影响\n\n3\n00:00:37,295 --> 00:00:50,402\n今年有影響我那時候講的就是下一年度就是明年啦你去年講的我當然是問你今年有沒有影響嘛所以今年沒有嘛對不對今年有啊因為我們的這個我在講今年的預算執行不是預算編列好不好\n\n4\n00:00:51,857 --> 00:01:08,345\n执行没有影响了是吗编列的时候你知道我在问什么我们就不要用这样的方式来今天做这个答询好不好那我们又看到今年的7月16你又再一次说了因为财化法会让明年的科技预算少200亿你有这样说吗对不对有好\n\n5\n00:01:09,105 --> 00:01:37,287\n那个去年113年的时候其实你当时说会有影响你有提到什么基础科研金创AI太空科技静林科技都会少但是你看你刚刚回答本席没有影响所以去年列这些出来你去年这12月25号这是113年那列了这些其实事实上在今年没有减少那我们再来看那个今年的时候114年7月16刚刚当然你听我讲完再来报告好不好\n\n6\n00:01:38,027 --> 00:02:04,284\n你都不聽你怎麼知道本席要問什麼啊你今天到底答詢怎麼回事啊你的態度比委員還差欸你如果不聽你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼對不起所以不是不可以這樣啊主席其實你就是應該要制止官員這樣子因為有時候你們都要用反面的方法來什麼叫做用反面的方法委員質詢還要你教嗎主席我的時間要先暫停對不起對不起委員這時間真的要暫停這樣要怎麼質詢暫停一下\n\n7\n00:02:06,823 --> 00:02:27,218\n我們要這樣溝通一下啦就是說我們委員會的委員在質詢還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎對不起那你等一下可以修正不要再用這樣的態度嗎好好謝謝主席那我們看到今年這主委你又說到說我們就是這個編列預算因為財化法又要少200億那我請教一下你這個少200億是少什麼我們今年編的預算後來謝謝我們萬昭委的協助\n\n8\n00:02:36,772 --> 00:03:04,277\n我們並沒有並沒有少掉很多啦今年啦但是我現在擔心的是明年其實是明年你擔心嗎所以是你擔心但你有對外說少200億嘛對不對而且說真的啦本席不願多做很多什麼政治的聯想啊7月16大罷免錢你再繼續講說這個財化法又要少了200億我是不知道啦是不是要跟上行政院的腳步但是我從來不認為你是這樣的人啦所以呢我們明年的預算有少嗎\n\n9\n00:03:05,851 --> 00:03:10,696\n明年預算我們本來編列是1800億但是因為行政院\n\n10\n00:03:11,926 --> 00:03:39,450\n整個總預算的額度就不足啦所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多元所以你下修來我們看一下看一下我們現在近五年來這是本席整理你的這個科技預算從一百一十一年一二一三一四一五年年增加每一年都在增加你先看這沒有錯嘛對不對沒有錯就到了一百一十五年我們還是增加呀\n\n11\n00:03:40,850 --> 00:04:06,879\n我们一定要快速增加当然增加我们也支持你的预算不是吗委员会也很支持你的预算我们再来看下一张我们增加你的预算我们支持你的预算但你看到你自己看这个决算你根本钱也用不完你111年还剩余了1亿5千多万那112年还剩5亿8千多万你113年还是剩1亿多万你根本用不完你执行率其实也不够好报告委员\n\n12\n00:04:07,359 --> 00:04:35,381\n報告委員有時候會有剩餘的原因是不可抗力的因素我同意啊像譬如說我們在做太空主委我本席跟你講我今天不是要跟你討論說你預算為什麼要少兵200億我也不是要跟你討論說你決算用不完的是哪些東西但我現在要告訴你說在預算上面你去年說少200今年說少200事實上沒有嘛事實上不但是一直在增加而且你的這個決算也沒有用完\n\n13\n00:04:36,101 --> 00:04:56,781\n我想今天要跟你提的就是这个第一个预算增加第二个过去三年我觉得这个你的执行也没有到百分之百那当然您刚刚有提到财化法之后行政院呢这个就是整个去做了一些调节以后所以呢你今天不敢编到1800你编1600嘛那就奇怪了为什么我们行政院呢对我们的这个国防部就这么好\n\n14\n00:04:57,501 --> 00:05:09,107\n國防部他就增加啊不斷的增加啊我昨天也問了我今天也問了教育部部長啊大家都來買一張椅子五萬塊嘛對不對莫名其妙國防部增加這樣難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎\n\n15\n00:05:10,325 --> 00:05:39,075\n是不是所以我想这一点你也不用回答你去想一想你去想想这样对还是不对但是说真的主委你在本席的心中都不是那种意识形态的人你是一个来认真做事的人但我希望就不要跟这些事情沾上边再来我想也是要接着刚刚我们林沛翔委员问的我们深入一点来问我们看到郑立军副院长他在完成了台美第五轮的实职磋商之后\n\n16\n00:05:39,975 --> 00:05:58,876\n那他有提就針對擴大對美的投資他提出了要協助美方建立台灣模式的產業聚落我剛看到這一句話的時候其實我有點擔心我也很shock為什麼我們一個台積電過去不夠他還要變成是整個產業聚落\n\n17\n00:06:00,718 --> 00:06:27,401\n我正在觉得纳闷的时候我们萧美琴副总统她接受外媒的访问就直接讲说台湾已经承诺美国要投资晶片产业不仅台积电还包括整个生态系就产业链全部要过去这就是他们说的产业聚落如果是这样的说法跟这样的文字其实让国人非常的担心我想主委应该有非常关心这件事情你有参与相关的会议吗这样的结果你是赞成还是反对\n\n18\n00:06:29,774 --> 00:06:52,594\n這個只是講法的問題我跟委員解釋一下所以你的意思是說這是副院長跟副總統講法不好不是不是講法不好啦你說講法的問題啊我跟委員解釋一下啦行政院其實在政府院長領軍在跟美國做談判的過程當中行政院其實有好幾度邀請台灣的產業界來討論討論相關的到美國投資的議題\n\n19\n00:06:56,577 --> 00:07:08,865\n因為有關稅的問題存在所以產業界就會考慮到說是不是應該到美國投資我知道啦主委本席就是請教您嘛這個相關的會議您曾經參加過嗎有參加過行政院的會議我參加過那這樣說吧你是認同嗎\n\n20\n00:07:12,447 --> 00:07:39,782\n我認同我跟委員報告原因是什麼是因為產業界認為如果政府不協助我們的產業界把台灣非常有效率的聚落群聚我們開發工業區科技工業區科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊到美國去一起去投資的話他們個別去效率是不高的主委啊我都不懂了什麼個別去群體去到底為什麼要去啊\n\n21\n00:07:40,502 --> 00:07:44,745\n這本來是我們的護國神山我跟委員報告我今天沒有跟你討論個別去群體去大家一起去比較互相有安全你這個講法很奇怪但我請教一下你覺得我們整個這樣主委我先問你你覺得我們不管是你剛剛說的個別去群體去什麼產業聚合區會不會削弱\n\n22\n00:08:04,121 --> 00:08:12,499\n會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力就是不會嘛所以你能夠保證台積電等這些高科技的產業他們的技術絕對不會外流不會\n\n23\n00:08:14,718 --> 00:08:43,504\n你可以保證我保證你拿什麼保證廠商為什麼要把他技術外流呢這有時候不是廠商要外流啊這有很多的因素在啊是不是主委你不能太一廂情願真的你不能太一廂情願我覺得你有這個看法我尊重但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情不是不無可能的所以我們要做風險管控我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們\n\n24\n00:08:44,864 --> 00:08:55,934\n他們不去不就沒事了嗎他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎他如果不去他在台灣他覺得他可能會虧本因為有關稅的議題當時剛去的時候還沒有在講關稅喔\n\n25\n00:09:00,563 --> 00:09:23,903\n有啦已经在讲了啦没有主委啊所以你的意思是说现在你的意思是说如果台积电这些高科技的这些产业留在台湾就没有发展了你的意思是这样吗我们讲的是台积电生态系是指的它的供应链供应链厂商要不要去我认为啦就是今天你有这么执着的这样子的看法当然啦我是不知道您真的是这样的看法还是不好\n\n26\n00:09:24,844 --> 00:09:52,000\n不好去打臉高層不過今天我想有很多的委員都會在這上面跟你做提醒畢竟你是我們這個主管我們所有科技這是最高的一個單位所以這些我們所有提醒這些風險的這個評估我希望你回去的時候還是要細細去咀嚼我們今天所有講的議題那同時剛才談到人才外流這件事當然你也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流但我必須要講\n\n27\n00:09:52,620 --> 00:10:18,352\n我们过去也花了很多的时间跟精力我们教委会也支持很多的预算我们做人才的培养可是你说人才都不会外流吗人才是只有跟他交流吗我想本席没有那么乐观你看我们花这么多钱来培养可是今天不带台积电去整个产业链要去你想我们培养出来的人才留在台湾无用武之地所以我想这一点当然你刚刚回答配项委员我也有听\n\n28\n00:10:19,152 --> 00:10:25,619\n那我希望你把今天我们给你的想法看法不同的角度回去其实还是要稍微去了解一下\n\n29\n00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:55,942\n你願意嗎謝謝委員指教接下來還有一點時間我想針對這一次這個艷澀湖的事件我們李鴻元部長有在講他說這此類高風險的地質災害政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力他也指出說我們現在我們都知道是農業部內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究可是資源重疊效率不好所以他建議要由國科會出面整合這一點你怎麼看\n\n30\n00:10:58,858 --> 00:11:15,631\n這個講法是好的是對的但是我們已經在做了我們國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊我們所有部會的監測資料會匯整到我們國家災防中心來我們長期在做資料的分析\n\n31\n00:11:16,391 --> 00:11:32,583\n提供包含资讯跟决策的情报我知道你们已经有在做但我认为就是说参考刚刚李洪源部长你也说对那我觉得我们高度要再拉起来然后那个宽度也要再拉宽那你刚刚讲那个资讯我想最后一点\n\n32\n00:11:34,785 --> 00:11:55,476\n國科會所屬的災防科技中心喔在這一次的災害當中9月4號就已經建置了馬太安溪的堰塞湖監測系統沒有錯嘛對不對那9月21號的時候呢在這個應變中心的中央災害應變中心第二次跟第三次會議當中你有提到第二次的時候下午兩點你說要匡列兩鄉四村里275人的數據對嗎\n\n33\n00:11:57,677 --> 00:12:11,652\n是的好但是呢隔沒有四個小時下午六點你把它匡列變成三鄉十二村里一千八百戶對不對我請我們陳主任來回答所以主委不曉得嗎我曉得但是他細節他非常清楚好\n\n34\n00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:41,225\n委員你好我想在9月21號的上午我只想要問這兩個數字對還是不對這個第三次的這一個部分是對的現在目前出來的這兩個數字是對的嘛那本期就要問了短短四個小時為什麼數字落差這麼大說真的數字落差這麼大我相信其實不管你要叫地方去做疏散這是非常高非常困難的一件事情那我們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要了可以簡單說明嗎\n\n35\n00:12:42,806 --> 00:13:08,391\n我們在三點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議然後還有跟縣政府還有跟地方光復慣容還有那個鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開會開視訊然後我們已經決定因為那個李教授你簡單打好不好我們周圍都站起來很簡單打那台大團隊已經把這些東西都已經告訴我們所以我們就跟地方聯絡所以我們畫出了目前這個部分\n\n36\n00:13:09,711 --> 00:13:29,026\n三個鄉鎮十二個村總共一千八百好啦我想這個有答跟沒答一樣我只有一個期許我覺得像這麼重大一個事件其實未來我們怎麼強化自己更精準的監測那更詳細的數字那效率跟速度我就再把它提升這個是我對國科會的期許好嗎所以我們會繼續努力謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t12741\t好 謝謝召委 我們有請吳主委請主委萬委員好\n18936\t35833\t好 主委好主委我本期记得在国客会在去年113年的时候12月27号曾经发布过新网稿指出财化法修正会影响200亿的科技预算有没有这件事有那后来今年有影响吗有今年有影响\n37295\t50402\t今年有影響我那時候講的就是下一年度就是明年啦你去年講的我當然是問你今年有沒有影響嘛所以今年沒有嘛對不對今年有啊因為我們的這個我在講今年的預算執行不是預算編列好不好\n51857\t68345\t执行没有影响了是吗编列的时候你知道我在问什么我们就不要用这样的方式来今天做这个答询好不好那我们又看到今年的7月16你又再一次说了因为财化法会让明年的科技预算少200亿你有这样说吗对不对有好\n69105\t97287\t那个去年113年的时候其实你当时说会有影响你有提到什么基础科研金创AI太空科技 静林科技都会少但是你看你刚刚回答本席没有影响所以去年列这些出来你去年这12月25号这是113年那列了这些其实事实上在今年没有减少那我们再来看那个今年的时候114年7月16刚刚当然你听我讲完再来报告好不好\n98027\t124284\t你都不聽你怎麼知道本席要問什麼啊你今天到底答詢怎麼回事啊你的態度比委員還差欸你如果不聽你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼對不起所以不是不可以這樣啊主席其實你就是應該要制止官員這樣子因為有時候你們都要用反面的方法來什麼叫做用反面的方法委員質詢還要你教嗎主席我的時間要先暫停對不起對不起委員這時間真的要暫停這樣要怎麼質詢暫停一下\n126823\t147218\t我們要這樣溝通一下啦就是說我們委員會的委員在質詢還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎對不起那你等一下可以修正不要再用這樣的態度嗎好好 謝謝主席那我們看到今年這主委你又說到說我們就是這個編列預算因為財化法又要少200億那我請教一下你這個少200億是少什麼我們今年編的預算後來謝謝我們萬昭委的協助\n156772\t184277\t我們並沒有 並沒有少掉很多啦今年啦但是我現在擔心的是明年 其實是明年你擔心嗎 所以是你擔心但你有對外說 少200億嘛 對不對而且 說真的啦 本席不願多做很多什麼政治的聯想啊7月16 大罷免錢你再繼續講說這個財化法又要少了200億我是不知道啦 是不是要跟上行政院的腳步但是我從來不認為你是這樣的人啦所以呢 我們明年的預算有少嗎\n185851\t190696\t明年預算我們本來編列是1800億但是因為行政院\n191926\t219450\t整個總預算的額度就不足啦所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多元所以你下修來我們看一下看一下我們現在近五年來這是本席整理你的這個科技預算從一百一十一年一二一三一四一五年年增加每一年都在增加你先看這沒有錯嘛對不對沒有錯就到了一百一十五年我們還是增加呀\n220850\t246879\t我们一定要快速增加当然增加我们也支持你的预算不是吗委员会也很支持你的预算我们再来看下一张我们增加你的预算我们支持你的预算但你看到你自己看这个决算你根本钱也用不完你111年还剩余了1亿5千多万那112年还剩5亿8千多万你113年还是剩1亿多万你根本用不完你执行率其实也不够好报告委员\n247359\t275381\t報告委員有時候會有剩餘的原因是不可抗力的因素我同意啊像譬如說我們在做太空主委我本席跟你講我今天不是要跟你討論說你預算為什麼要少兵200億我也不是要跟你討論說你決算用不完的是哪些東西但我現在要告訴你說在預算上面你去年說少200今年說少200事實上沒有嘛事實上不但是一直在增加而且你的這個決算也沒有用完\n276101\t296781\t我想今天要跟你提的就是这个第一个预算增加第二个过去三年我觉得这个你的执行也没有到百分之百那当然您刚刚有提到财化法之后行政院呢这个就是整个去做了一些调节以后所以呢你今天不敢编到1800你编1600嘛那就奇怪了为什么我们行政院呢对我们的这个国防部就这么好\n297501\t309107\t國防部他就增加啊 不斷的增加啊我昨天也問了 我今天也問了教育部部長啊大家都來買一張椅子五萬塊嘛 對不對莫名其妙國防部增加這樣難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎\n310325\t339075\t是不是所以我想这一点你也不用回答你去想一想你去想想这样对还是不对但是说真的主委你在本席的心中都不是那种意识形态的人你是一个来认真做事的人但我希望就不要跟这些事情沾上边再来我想也是要接着刚刚我们林沛翔委员问的我们深入一点来问我们看到郑立军副院长他在完成了台美第五轮的实职磋商之后\n339975\t358876\t那他有提就針對擴大對美的投資他提出了要協助美方建立台灣模式的產業聚落我剛看到這一句話的時候其實我有點擔心我也很shock為什麼我們一個台積電過去不夠他還要變成是整個產業聚落\n360718\t387401\t我正在觉得纳闷的时候我们萧美琴副总统她接受外媒的访问就直接讲说台湾已经承诺美国要投资晶片产业不仅台积电还包括整个生态系就产业链全部要过去这就是他们说的产业聚落如果是这样的说法跟这样的文字其实让国人非常的担心我想主委应该有非常关心这件事情你有参与相关的会议吗这样的结果你是赞成还是反对\n389774\t412594\t這個只是講法的問題 我跟委員解釋一下所以你的意思是說這是副院長跟副總統講法不好不是 不是講法不好啦你說講法的問題啊我跟委員解釋一下啦行政院其實在政府院長領軍在跟美國做談判的過程當中行政院其實有好幾度邀請台灣的產業界來討論討論相關的到美國投資的議題\n416577\t428865\t因為有關稅的問題存在所以產業界就會考慮到說是不是應該到美國投資我知道啦 主委本席就是請教您嘛這個相關的會議您曾經參加過嗎有參加過 行政院的會議我參加過那這樣說吧 你是認同嗎\n432447\t459782\t我認同 我跟委員報告原因是什麼是因為產業界認為如果政府不協助我們的產業界把台灣非常有效率的聚落群聚我們開發工業區 科技工業區科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊到美國去一起去投資的話他們個別去效率是不高的主委啊 我都不懂了什麼個別去 群體去 到底為什麼要去啊\n460502\t464745\t這本來是我們的護國神山我跟委員報告我今天沒有跟你討論個別去 群體去大家一起去比較互相有安全你這個講法很奇怪但我請教一下你覺得我們整個這樣主委我先問你你覺得我們不管是你剛剛說的個別去 群體去什麼產業聚合區會不會削弱\n484121\t492499\t會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力就是不會嘛所以你能夠保證台積電等這些高科技的產業他們的技術絕對不會外流不會\n494718\t523504\t你可以保證我保證你拿什麼保證廠商為什麼要把他技術外流呢這有時候不是廠商要外流啊這有很多的因素在啊是不是主委你不能太一廂情願真的你不能太一廂情願我覺得你有這個看法我尊重但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情不是不無可能的所以我們要做風險管控我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們\n524864\t535934\t他們不去不就沒事了嗎他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎他如果不去他在台灣他覺得他可能會虧本因為有關稅的議題當時剛去的時候還沒有在講關稅喔\n540563\t563903\t有啦 已经在讲了啦没有 主委啊 所以你的意思是说现在你的意思是说如果台积电这些高科技的这些产业留在台湾就没有发展了 你的意思是这样吗我们讲的是台积电生态系是指的它的供应链供应链厂商要不要去我认为啦 就是今天你有这么执着的这样子的看法当然啦 我是不知道您真的是这样的看法还是不好\n564844\t592000\t不好去打臉高層不過今天我想有很多的委員都會在這上面跟你做提醒畢竟你是我們這個主管我們所有科技這是最高的一個單位所以這些我們所有提醒這些風險的這個評估我希望你回去的時候還是要細細去咀嚼我們今天所有講的議題那同時剛才談到人才外流這件事當然你也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流但我必須要講\n592620\t618352\t我们过去也花了很多的时间跟精力我们教委会也支持很多的预算我们做人才的培养可是你说人才都不会外流吗人才是只有跟他交流吗我想本席没有那么乐观你看我们花这么多钱来培养可是今天不带台积电去整个产业链要去你想我们培养出来的人才留在台湾无用武之地所以我想这一点当然你刚刚回答配项委员我也有听\n619152\t625619\t那我希望你把今天我们给你的想法看法不同的角度回去其实还是要稍微去了解一下\n626570\t655942\t你願意嗎謝謝委員指教接下來還有一點時間我想針對這一次這個艷澀湖的事件我們李鴻元部長有在講他說這此類高風險的地質災害政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力他也指出說我們現在我們都知道是農業部內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究可是資源重疊效率不好所以他建議要由國科會出面整合這一點你怎麼看\n658858\t675631\t這個講法是好的是對的但是我們已經在做了我們國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊我們所有部會的監測資料會匯整到我們國家災防中心來我們長期在做資料的分析\n676391\t692583\t提供包含资讯跟决策的情报我知道你们已经有在做但我认为就是说参考刚刚李洪源部长你也说对那我觉得我们高度要再拉起来然后那个宽度也要再拉宽那你刚刚讲那个资讯我想最后一点\n694785\t715476\t國科會所屬的災防科技中心喔在這一次的災害當中9月4號就已經建置了馬太安溪的堰塞湖監測系統沒有錯嘛對不對那9月21號的時候呢在這個應變中心的中央災害應變中心第二次跟第三次會議當中你有提到第二次的時候下午兩點你說要匡列兩鄉四村里275人的數據對嗎\n717677\t731652\t是的 好 但是呢 隔沒有四個小時 下午六點你把它匡列變成三鄉十二村里一千八百戶對不對 我請我們陳主任來回答 所以主委不曉得嗎我曉得 但是他細節他非常清楚 好\n733110\t761225\t委員你好我想在9月21號的上午我只想要問這兩個數字對還是不對這個第三次的這一個部分是對的現在目前出來的這兩個數字是對的嘛那本期就要問了短短四個小時為什麼數字落差這麼大說真的數字落差這麼大我相信其實不管你要叫地方去做疏散這是非常高非常困難的一件事情那我們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要了可以簡單說明嗎\n762806\t788391\t我們在三點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議然後還有跟縣政府還有跟地方光復慣容還有那個鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開會開視訊然後我們已經決定因為那個李教授你簡單打好不好我們周圍都站起來很簡單打那台大團隊已經把這些東西都已經告訴我們所以我們就跟地方聯絡所以我們畫出了目前這個部分\n789711\t809026\t三個鄉鎮 十二個村 總共一千八百好啦 我想這個有答跟沒答一樣我只有一個期許我覺得像這麼重大一個事件其實未來我們怎麼強化自己更精準的監測那更詳細的數字那效率跟速度我就再把它提升這個是我對國科會的期許 好嗎所以我們會繼續努力 謝謝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請吳主委請主委萬委員好\n好 主委好主委我本期记得在国客会在去年113年的时候12月27号曾经发布过新网稿指出财化法修正会影响200亿的科技预算有没有这件事有那后来今年有影响吗有今年有影响\n今年有影響我那時候講的就是下一年度就是明年啦你去年講的我當然是問你今年有沒有影響嘛所以今年沒有嘛對不對今年有啊因為我們的這個我在講今年的預算執行不是預算編列好不好\n执行没有影响了是吗编列的时候你知道我在问什么我们就不要用这样的方式来今天做这个答询好不好那我们又看到今年的7月16你又再一次说了因为财化法会让明年的科技预算少200亿你有这样说吗对不对有好\n那个去年113年的时候其实你当时说会有影响你有提到什么基础科研金创AI太空科技 静林科技都会少但是你看你刚刚回答本席没有影响所以去年列这些出来你去年这12月25号这是113年那列了这些其实事实上在今年没有减少那我们再来看那个今年的时候114年7月16刚刚当然你听我讲完再来报告好不好\n你都不聽你怎麼知道本席要問什麼啊你今天到底答詢怎麼回事啊你的態度比委員還差欸你如果不聽你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼對不起所以不是不可以這樣啊主席其實你就是應該要制止官員這樣子因為有時候你們都要用反面的方法來什麼叫做用反面的方法委員質詢還要你教嗎主席我的時間要先暫停對不起對不起委員這時間真的要暫停這樣要怎麼質詢暫停一下\n我們要這樣溝通一下啦就是說我們委員會的委員在質詢還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎對不起那你等一下可以修正不要再用這樣的態度嗎好好 謝謝主席那我們看到今年這主委你又說到說我們就是這個編列預算因為財化法又要少200億那我請教一下你這個少200億是少什麼我們今年編的預算後來謝謝我們萬昭委的協助\n我們並沒有 並沒有少掉很多啦今年啦但是我現在擔心的是明年 其實是明年你擔心嗎 所以是你擔心但你有對外說 少200億嘛 對不對而且 說真的啦 本席不願多做很多什麼政治的聯想啊7月16 大罷免錢你再繼續講說這個財化法又要少了200億我是不知道啦 是不是要跟上行政院的腳步但是我從來不認為你是這樣的人啦所以呢 我們明年的預算有少嗎\n明年預算我們本來編列是1800億但是因為行政院\n整個總預算的額度就不足啦所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多元所以你下修來我們看一下看一下我們現在近五年來這是本席整理你的這個科技預算從一百一十一年一二一三一四一五年年增加每一年都在增加你先看這沒有錯嘛對不對沒有錯就到了一百一十五年我們還是增加呀\n我们一定要快速增加当然增加我们也支持你的预算不是吗委员会也很支持你的预算我们再来看下一张我们增加你的预算我们支持你的预算但你看到你自己看这个决算你根本钱也用不完你111年还剩余了1亿5千多万那112年还剩5亿8千多万你113年还是剩1亿多万你根本用不完你执行率其实也不够好报告委员\n報告委員有時候會有剩餘的原因是不可抗力的因素我同意啊像譬如說我們在做太空主委我本席跟你講我今天不是要跟你討論說你預算為什麼要少兵200億我也不是要跟你討論說你決算用不完的是哪些東西但我現在要告訴你說在預算上面你去年說少200今年說少200事實上沒有嘛事實上不但是一直在增加而且你的這個決算也沒有用完\n我想今天要跟你提的就是这个第一个预算增加第二个过去三年我觉得这个你的执行也没有到百分之百那当然您刚刚有提到财化法之后行政院呢这个就是整个去做了一些调节以后所以呢你今天不敢编到1800你编1600嘛那就奇怪了为什么我们行政院呢对我们的这个国防部就这么好\n國防部他就增加啊 不斷的增加啊我昨天也問了 我今天也問了教育部部長啊大家都來買一張椅子五萬塊嘛 對不對莫名其妙國防部增加這樣難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎\n是不是所以我想这一点你也不用回答你去想一想你去想想这样对还是不对但是说真的主委你在本席的心中都不是那种意识形态的人你是一个来认真做事的人但我希望就不要跟这些事情沾上边再来我想也是要接着刚刚我们林沛翔委员问的我们深入一点来问我们看到郑立军副院长他在完成了台美第五轮的实职磋商之后\n那他有提就針對擴大對美的投資他提出了要協助美方建立台灣模式的產業聚落我剛看到這一句話的時候其實我有點擔心我也很shock為什麼我們一個台積電過去不夠他還要變成是整個產業聚落\n我正在觉得纳闷的时候我们萧美琴副总统她接受外媒的访问就直接讲说台湾已经承诺美国要投资晶片产业不仅台积电还包括整个生态系就产业链全部要过去这就是他们说的产业聚落如果是这样的说法跟这样的文字其实让国人非常的担心我想主委应该有非常关心这件事情你有参与相关的会议吗这样的结果你是赞成还是反对\n這個只是講法的問題 我跟委員解釋一下所以你的意思是說這是副院長跟副總統講法不好不是 不是講法不好啦你說講法的問題啊我跟委員解釋一下啦行政院其實在政府院長領軍在跟美國做談判的過程當中行政院其實有好幾度邀請台灣的產業界來討論討論相關的到美國投資的議題\n因為有關稅的問題存在所以產業界就會考慮到說是不是應該到美國投資我知道啦 主委本席就是請教您嘛這個相關的會議您曾經參加過嗎有參加過 行政院的會議我參加過那這樣說吧 你是認同嗎\n我認同 我跟委員報告原因是什麼是因為產業界認為如果政府不協助我們的產業界把台灣非常有效率的聚落群聚我們開發工業區 科技工業區科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊到美國去一起去投資的話他們個別去效率是不高的主委啊 我都不懂了什麼個別去 群體去 到底為什麼要去啊\n這本來是我們的護國神山我跟委員報告我今天沒有跟你討論個別去 群體去大家一起去比較互相有安全你這個講法很奇怪但我請教一下你覺得我們整個這樣主委我先問你你覺得我們不管是你剛剛說的個別去 群體去什麼產業聚合區會不會削弱\n會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力就是不會嘛所以你能夠保證台積電等這些高科技的產業他們的技術絕對不會外流不會\n你可以保證我保證你拿什麼保證廠商為什麼要把他技術外流呢這有時候不是廠商要外流啊這有很多的因素在啊是不是主委你不能太一廂情願真的你不能太一廂情願我覺得你有這個看法我尊重但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情不是不無可能的所以我們要做風險管控我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們\n他們不去不就沒事了嗎他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎他如果不去他在台灣他覺得他可能會虧本因為有關稅的議題當時剛去的時候還沒有在講關稅喔\n有啦 已经在讲了啦没有 主委啊 所以你的意思是说现在你的意思是说如果台积电这些高科技的这些产业留在台湾就没有发展了 你的意思是这样吗我们讲的是台积电生态系是指的它的供应链供应链厂商要不要去我认为啦 就是今天你有这么执着的这样子的看法当然啦 我是不知道您真的是这样的看法还是不好\n不好去打臉高層不過今天我想有很多的委員都會在這上面跟你做提醒畢竟你是我們這個主管我們所有科技這是最高的一個單位所以這些我們所有提醒這些風險的這個評估我希望你回去的時候還是要細細去咀嚼我們今天所有講的議題那同時剛才談到人才外流這件事當然你也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流但我必須要講\n我们过去也花了很多的时间跟精力我们教委会也支持很多的预算我们做人才的培养可是你说人才都不会外流吗人才是只有跟他交流吗我想本席没有那么乐观你看我们花这么多钱来培养可是今天不带台积电去整个产业链要去你想我们培养出来的人才留在台湾无用武之地所以我想这一点当然你刚刚回答配项委员我也有听\n那我希望你把今天我们给你的想法看法不同的角度回去其实还是要稍微去了解一下\n你願意嗎謝謝委員指教接下來還有一點時間我想針對這一次這個艷澀湖的事件我們李鴻元部長有在講他說這此類高風險的地質災害政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力他也指出說我們現在我們都知道是農業部內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究可是資源重疊效率不好所以他建議要由國科會出面整合這一點你怎麼看\n這個講法是好的是對的但是我們已經在做了我們國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊我們所有部會的監測資料會匯整到我們國家災防中心來我們長期在做資料的分析\n提供包含资讯跟决策的情报我知道你们已经有在做但我认为就是说参考刚刚李洪源部长你也说对那我觉得我们高度要再拉起来然后那个宽度也要再拉宽那你刚刚讲那个资讯我想最后一点\n國科會所屬的災防科技中心喔在這一次的災害當中9月4號就已經建置了馬太安溪的堰塞湖監測系統沒有錯嘛對不對那9月21號的時候呢在這個應變中心的中央災害應變中心第二次跟第三次會議當中你有提到第二次的時候下午兩點你說要匡列兩鄉四村里275人的數據對嗎\n是的 好 但是呢 隔沒有四個小時 下午六點你把它匡列變成三鄉十二村里一千八百戶對不對 我請我們陳主任來回答 所以主委不曉得嗎我曉得 但是他細節他非常清楚 好\n委員你好我想在9月21號的上午我只想要問這兩個數字對還是不對這個第三次的這一個部分是對的現在目前出來的這兩個數字是對的嘛那本期就要問了短短四個小時為什麼數字落差這麼大說真的數字落差這麼大我相信其實不管你要叫地方去做疏散這是非常高非常困難的一件事情那我們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要了可以簡單說明嗎\n我們在三點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議然後還有跟縣政府還有跟地方光復慣容還有那個鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開會開視訊然後我們已經決定因為那個李教授你簡單打好不好我們周圍都站起來很簡單打那台大團隊已經把這些東西都已經告訴我們所以我們就跟地方聯絡所以我們畫出了目前這個部分\n三個鄉鎮 十二個村 總共一千八百好啦 我想這個有答跟沒答一樣我只有一個期許我覺得像這麼重大一個事件其實未來我們怎麼強化自己更精準的監測那更詳細的數字那效率跟速度我就再把它提升這個是我對國科會的期許 好嗎所以我們會繼續努力 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:12.741\n好謝謝召委我們有請吳主委請主委萬委員好\n\n00:18.936 --> 00:35.833\n好主委好主委我本期记得在国客会在去年113年的时候12月27号曾经发布过新网稿指出财化法修正会影响200亿的科技预算有没有这件事有那后来今年有影响吗有今年有影响\n\n00:37.295 --> 00:50.402\n今年有影響我那時候講的就是下一年度就是明年啦你去年講的我當然是問你今年有沒有影響嘛所以今年沒有嘛對不對今年有啊因為我們的這個我在講今年的預算執行不是預算編列好不好\n\n00:51.857 --> 01:08.345\n执行没有影响了是吗编列的时候你知道我在问什么我们就不要用这样的方式来今天做这个答询好不好那我们又看到今年的7月16你又再一次说了因为财化法会让明年的科技预算少200亿你有这样说吗对不对有好\n\n01:09.105 --> 01:37.287\n那个去年113年的时候其实你当时说会有影响你有提到什么基础科研金创AI太空科技静林科技都会少但是你看你刚刚回答本席没有影响所以去年列这些出来你去年这12月25号这是113年那列了这些其实事实上在今年没有减少那我们再来看那个今年的时候114年7月16刚刚当然你听我讲完再来报告好不好\n\n01:38.027 --> 02:04.284\n你都不聽你怎麼知道本席要問什麼啊你今天到底答詢怎麼回事啊你的態度比委員還差欸你如果不聽你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼對不起所以不是不可以這樣啊主席其實你就是應該要制止官員這樣子因為有時候你們都要用反面的方法來什麼叫做用反面的方法委員質詢還要你教嗎主席我的時間要先暫停對不起對不起委員這時間真的要暫停這樣要怎麼質詢暫停一下\n\n02:06.823 --> 02:27.218\n我們要這樣溝通一下啦就是說我們委員會的委員在質詢還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎對不起那你等一下可以修正不要再用這樣的態度嗎好好謝謝主席那我們看到今年這主委你又說到說我們就是這個編列預算因為財化法又要少200億那我請教一下你這個少200億是少什麼我們今年編的預算後來謝謝我們萬昭委的協助\n\n02:36.772 --> 03:04.277\n我們並沒有並沒有少掉很多啦今年啦但是我現在擔心的是明年其實是明年你擔心嗎所以是你擔心但你有對外說少200億嘛對不對而且說真的啦本席不願多做很多什麼政治的聯想啊7月16大罷免錢你再繼續講說這個財化法又要少了200億我是不知道啦是不是要跟上行政院的腳步但是我從來不認為你是這樣的人啦所以呢我們明年的預算有少嗎\n\n03:05.851 --> 03:10.696\n明年預算我們本來編列是1800億但是因為行政院\n\n03:11.926 --> 03:39.450\n整個總預算的額度就不足啦所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多元所以你下修來我們看一下看一下我們現在近五年來這是本席整理你的這個科技預算從一百一十一年一二一三一四一五年年增加每一年都在增加你先看這沒有錯嘛對不對沒有錯就到了一百一十五年我們還是增加呀\n\n03:40.850 --> 04:06.879\n我们一定要快速增加当然增加我们也支持你的预算不是吗委员会也很支持你的预算我们再来看下一张我们增加你的预算我们支持你的预算但你看到你自己看这个决算你根本钱也用不完你111年还剩余了1亿5千多万那112年还剩5亿8千多万你113年还是剩1亿多万你根本用不完你执行率其实也不够好报告委员\n\n04:07.359 --> 04:35.381\n報告委員有時候會有剩餘的原因是不可抗力的因素我同意啊像譬如說我們在做太空主委我本席跟你講我今天不是要跟你討論說你預算為什麼要少兵200億我也不是要跟你討論說你決算用不完的是哪些東西但我現在要告訴你說在預算上面你去年說少200今年說少200事實上沒有嘛事實上不但是一直在增加而且你的這個決算也沒有用完\n\n04:36.101 --> 04:56.781\n我想今天要跟你提的就是这个第一个预算增加第二个过去三年我觉得这个你的执行也没有到百分之百那当然您刚刚有提到财化法之后行政院呢这个就是整个去做了一些调节以后所以呢你今天不敢编到1800你编1600嘛那就奇怪了为什么我们行政院呢对我们的这个国防部就这么好\n\n04:57.501 --> 05:09.107\n國防部他就增加啊不斷的增加啊我昨天也問了我今天也問了教育部部長啊大家都來買一張椅子五萬塊嘛對不對莫名其妙國防部增加這樣難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎\n\n05:10.325 --> 05:39.075\n是不是所以我想这一点你也不用回答你去想一想你去想想这样对还是不对但是说真的主委你在本席的心中都不是那种意识形态的人你是一个来认真做事的人但我希望就不要跟这些事情沾上边再来我想也是要接着刚刚我们林沛翔委员问的我们深入一点来问我们看到郑立军副院长他在完成了台美第五轮的实职磋商之后\n\n05:39.975 --> 05:58.876\n那他有提就針對擴大對美的投資他提出了要協助美方建立台灣模式的產業聚落我剛看到這一句話的時候其實我有點擔心我也很shock為什麼我們一個台積電過去不夠他還要變成是整個產業聚落\n\n06:00.718 --> 06:27.401\n我正在觉得纳闷的时候我们萧美琴副总统她接受外媒的访问就直接讲说台湾已经承诺美国要投资晶片产业不仅台积电还包括整个生态系就产业链全部要过去这就是他们说的产业聚落如果是这样的说法跟这样的文字其实让国人非常的担心我想主委应该有非常关心这件事情你有参与相关的会议吗这样的结果你是赞成还是反对\n\n06:29.774 --> 06:52.594\n這個只是講法的問題我跟委員解釋一下所以你的意思是說這是副院長跟副總統講法不好不是不是講法不好啦你說講法的問題啊我跟委員解釋一下啦行政院其實在政府院長領軍在跟美國做談判的過程當中行政院其實有好幾度邀請台灣的產業界來討論討論相關的到美國投資的議題\n\n06:56.577 --> 07:08.865\n因為有關稅的問題存在所以產業界就會考慮到說是不是應該到美國投資我知道啦主委本席就是請教您嘛這個相關的會議您曾經參加過嗎有參加過行政院的會議我參加過那這樣說吧你是認同嗎\n\n07:12.447 --> 07:39.782\n我認同我跟委員報告原因是什麼是因為產業界認為如果政府不協助我們的產業界把台灣非常有效率的聚落群聚我們開發工業區科技工業區科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊到美國去一起去投資的話他們個別去效率是不高的主委啊我都不懂了什麼個別去群體去到底為什麼要去啊\n\n07:40.502 --> 07:44.745\n這本來是我們的護國神山我跟委員報告我今天沒有跟你討論個別去群體去大家一起去比較互相有安全你這個講法很奇怪但我請教一下你覺得我們整個這樣主委我先問你你覺得我們不管是你剛剛說的個別去群體去什麼產業聚合區會不會削弱\n\n08:04.121 --> 08:12.499\n會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力就是不會嘛所以你能夠保證台積電等這些高科技的產業他們的技術絕對不會外流不會\n\n08:14.718 --> 08:43.504\n你可以保證我保證你拿什麼保證廠商為什麼要把他技術外流呢這有時候不是廠商要外流啊這有很多的因素在啊是不是主委你不能太一廂情願真的你不能太一廂情願我覺得你有這個看法我尊重但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情不是不無可能的所以我們要做風險管控我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們\n\n08:44.864 --> 08:55.934\n他們不去不就沒事了嗎他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎他如果不去他在台灣他覺得他可能會虧本因為有關稅的議題當時剛去的時候還沒有在講關稅喔\n\n09:00.563 --> 09:23.903\n有啦已经在讲了啦没有主委啊所以你的意思是说现在你的意思是说如果台积电这些高科技的这些产业留在台湾就没有发展了你的意思是这样吗我们讲的是台积电生态系是指的它的供应链供应链厂商要不要去我认为啦就是今天你有这么执着的这样子的看法当然啦我是不知道您真的是这样的看法还是不好\n\n09:24.844 --> 09:52.000\n不好去打臉高層不過今天我想有很多的委員都會在這上面跟你做提醒畢竟你是我們這個主管我們所有科技這是最高的一個單位所以這些我們所有提醒這些風險的這個評估我希望你回去的時候還是要細細去咀嚼我們今天所有講的議題那同時剛才談到人才外流這件事當然你也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流但我必須要講\n\n09:52.620 --> 10:18.352\n我们过去也花了很多的时间跟精力我们教委会也支持很多的预算我们做人才的培养可是你说人才都不会外流吗人才是只有跟他交流吗我想本席没有那么乐观你看我们花这么多钱来培养可是今天不带台积电去整个产业链要去你想我们培养出来的人才留在台湾无用武之地所以我想这一点当然你刚刚回答配项委员我也有听\n\n10:19.152 --> 10:25.619\n那我希望你把今天我们给你的想法看法不同的角度回去其实还是要稍微去了解一下\n\n10:26.570 --> 10:55.942\n你願意嗎謝謝委員指教接下來還有一點時間我想針對這一次這個艷澀湖的事件我們李鴻元部長有在講他說這此類高風險的地質災害政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力他也指出說我們現在我們都知道是農業部內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究可是資源重疊效率不好所以他建議要由國科會出面整合這一點你怎麼看\n\n10:58.858 --> 11:15.631\n這個講法是好的是對的但是我們已經在做了我們國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊我們所有部會的監測資料會匯整到我們國家災防中心來我們長期在做資料的分析\n\n11:16.391 --> 11:32.583\n提供包含资讯跟决策的情报我知道你们已经有在做但我认为就是说参考刚刚李洪源部长你也说对那我觉得我们高度要再拉起来然后那个宽度也要再拉宽那你刚刚讲那个资讯我想最后一点\n\n11:34.785 --> 11:55.476\n國科會所屬的災防科技中心喔在這一次的災害當中9月4號就已經建置了馬太安溪的堰塞湖監測系統沒有錯嘛對不對那9月21號的時候呢在這個應變中心的中央災害應變中心第二次跟第三次會議當中你有提到第二次的時候下午兩點你說要匡列兩鄉四村里275人的數據對嗎\n\n11:57.677 --> 12:11.652\n是的好但是呢隔沒有四個小時下午六點你把它匡列變成三鄉十二村里一千八百戶對不對我請我們陳主任來回答所以主委不曉得嗎我曉得但是他細節他非常清楚好\n\n12:13.110 --> 12:41.225\n委員你好我想在9月21號的上午我只想要問這兩個數字對還是不對這個第三次的這一個部分是對的現在目前出來的這兩個數字是對的嘛那本期就要問了短短四個小時為什麼數字落差這麼大說真的數字落差這麼大我相信其實不管你要叫地方去做疏散這是非常高非常困難的一件事情那我們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要了可以簡單說明嗎\n\n12:42.806 --> 13:08.391\n我們在三點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議然後還有跟縣政府還有跟地方光復慣容還有那個鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開會開視訊然後我們已經決定因為那個李教授你簡單打好不好我們周圍都站起來很簡單打那台大團隊已經把這些東西都已經告訴我們所以我們就跟地方聯絡所以我們畫出了目前這個部分\n\n13:09.711 --> 13:29.026\n三個鄉鎮十二個村總共一千八百好啦我想這個有答跟沒答一樣我只有一個期許我覺得像這麼重大一個事件其實未來我們怎麼強化自己更精準的監測那更詳細的數字那效率跟速度我就再把它提升這個是我對國科會的期許好嗎所以我們會繼續努力謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":12.741,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請吳主委請主委萬委員好"},{"start":18.936,"end":35.833,"text":"好 主委好主委我本期记得在国客会在去年113年的时候12月27号曾经发布过新网稿指出财化法修正会影响200亿的科技预算有没有这件事有那后来今年有影响吗有今年有影响"},{"start":37.295,"end":50.402,"text":"今年有影響我那時候講的就是下一年度就是明年啦你去年講的我當然是問你今年有沒有影響嘛所以今年沒有嘛對不對今年有啊因為我們的這個我在講今年的預算執行不是預算編列好不好"},{"start":51.857,"end":68.345,"text":"执行没有影响了是吗编列的时候你知道我在问什么我们就不要用这样的方式来今天做这个答询好不好那我们又看到今年的7月16你又再一次说了因为财化法会让明年的科技预算少200亿你有这样说吗对不对有好"},{"start":69.105,"end":97.287,"text":"那个去年113年的时候其实你当时说会有影响你有提到什么基础科研金创AI太空科技 静林科技都会少但是你看你刚刚回答本席没有影响所以去年列这些出来你去年这12月25号这是113年那列了这些其实事实上在今年没有减少那我们再来看那个今年的时候114年7月16刚刚当然你听我讲完再来报告好不好"},{"start":98.027,"end":124.284,"text":"你都不聽你怎麼知道本席要問什麼啊你今天到底答詢怎麼回事啊你的態度比委員還差欸你如果不聽你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼對不起所以不是不可以這樣啊主席其實你就是應該要制止官員這樣子因為有時候你們都要用反面的方法來什麼叫做用反面的方法委員質詢還要你教嗎主席我的時間要先暫停對不起對不起委員這時間真的要暫停這樣要怎麼質詢暫停一下"},{"start":126.823,"end":147.218,"text":"我們要這樣溝通一下啦就是說我們委員會的委員在質詢還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎對不起那你等一下可以修正不要再用這樣的態度嗎好好 謝謝主席那我們看到今年這主委你又說到說我們就是這個編列預算因為財化法又要少200億那我請教一下你這個少200億是少什麼我們今年編的預算後來謝謝我們萬昭委的協助"},{"start":156.772,"end":184.277,"text":"我們並沒有 並沒有少掉很多啦今年啦但是我現在擔心的是明年 其實是明年你擔心嗎 所以是你擔心但你有對外說 少200億嘛 對不對而且 說真的啦 本席不願多做很多什麼政治的聯想啊7月16 大罷免錢你再繼續講說這個財化法又要少了200億我是不知道啦 是不是要跟上行政院的腳步但是我從來不認為你是這樣的人啦所以呢 我們明年的預算有少嗎"},{"start":185.851,"end":190.696,"text":"明年預算我們本來編列是1800億但是因為行政院"},{"start":191.926,"end":219.45,"text":"整個總預算的額度就不足啦所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多元所以你下修來我們看一下看一下我們現在近五年來這是本席整理你的這個科技預算從一百一十一年一二一三一四一五年年增加每一年都在增加你先看這沒有錯嘛對不對沒有錯就到了一百一十五年我們還是增加呀"},{"start":220.85,"end":246.879,"text":"我们一定要快速增加当然增加我们也支持你的预算不是吗委员会也很支持你的预算我们再来看下一张我们增加你的预算我们支持你的预算但你看到你自己看这个决算你根本钱也用不完你111年还剩余了1亿5千多万那112年还剩5亿8千多万你113年还是剩1亿多万你根本用不完你执行率其实也不够好报告委员"},{"start":247.359,"end":275.381,"text":"報告委員有時候會有剩餘的原因是不可抗力的因素我同意啊像譬如說我們在做太空主委我本席跟你講我今天不是要跟你討論說你預算為什麼要少兵200億我也不是要跟你討論說你決算用不完的是哪些東西但我現在要告訴你說在預算上面你去年說少200今年說少200事實上沒有嘛事實上不但是一直在增加而且你的這個決算也沒有用完"},{"start":276.101,"end":296.781,"text":"我想今天要跟你提的就是这个第一个预算增加第二个过去三年我觉得这个你的执行也没有到百分之百那当然您刚刚有提到财化法之后行政院呢这个就是整个去做了一些调节以后所以呢你今天不敢编到1800你编1600嘛那就奇怪了为什么我们行政院呢对我们的这个国防部就这么好"},{"start":297.501,"end":309.107,"text":"國防部他就增加啊 不斷的增加啊我昨天也問了 我今天也問了教育部部長啊大家都來買一張椅子五萬塊嘛 對不對莫名其妙國防部增加這樣難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎"},{"start":310.325,"end":339.075,"text":"是不是所以我想这一点你也不用回答你去想一想你去想想这样对还是不对但是说真的主委你在本席的心中都不是那种意识形态的人你是一个来认真做事的人但我希望就不要跟这些事情沾上边再来我想也是要接着刚刚我们林沛翔委员问的我们深入一点来问我们看到郑立军副院长他在完成了台美第五轮的实职磋商之后"},{"start":339.975,"end":358.876,"text":"那他有提就針對擴大對美的投資他提出了要協助美方建立台灣模式的產業聚落我剛看到這一句話的時候其實我有點擔心我也很shock為什麼我們一個台積電過去不夠他還要變成是整個產業聚落"},{"start":360.718,"end":387.401,"text":"我正在觉得纳闷的时候我们萧美琴副总统她接受外媒的访问就直接讲说台湾已经承诺美国要投资晶片产业不仅台积电还包括整个生态系就产业链全部要过去这就是他们说的产业聚落如果是这样的说法跟这样的文字其实让国人非常的担心我想主委应该有非常关心这件事情你有参与相关的会议吗这样的结果你是赞成还是反对"},{"start":389.774,"end":412.594,"text":"這個只是講法的問題 我跟委員解釋一下所以你的意思是說這是副院長跟副總統講法不好不是 不是講法不好啦你說講法的問題啊我跟委員解釋一下啦行政院其實在政府院長領軍在跟美國做談判的過程當中行政院其實有好幾度邀請台灣的產業界來討論討論相關的到美國投資的議題"},{"start":416.577,"end":428.865,"text":"因為有關稅的問題存在所以產業界就會考慮到說是不是應該到美國投資我知道啦 主委本席就是請教您嘛這個相關的會議您曾經參加過嗎有參加過 行政院的會議我參加過那這樣說吧 你是認同嗎"},{"start":432.447,"end":459.782,"text":"我認同 我跟委員報告原因是什麼是因為產業界認為如果政府不協助我們的產業界把台灣非常有效率的聚落群聚我們開發工業區 科技工業區科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊到美國去一起去投資的話他們個別去效率是不高的主委啊 我都不懂了什麼個別去 群體去 到底為什麼要去啊"},{"start":460.502,"end":464.745,"text":"這本來是我們的護國神山我跟委員報告我今天沒有跟你討論個別去 群體去大家一起去比較互相有安全你這個講法很奇怪但我請教一下你覺得我們整個這樣主委我先問你你覺得我們不管是你剛剛說的個別去 群體去什麼產業聚合區會不會削弱"},{"start":484.121,"end":492.499,"text":"會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力就是不會嘛所以你能夠保證台積電等這些高科技的產業他們的技術絕對不會外流不會"},{"start":494.718,"end":523.504,"text":"你可以保證我保證你拿什麼保證廠商為什麼要把他技術外流呢這有時候不是廠商要外流啊這有很多的因素在啊是不是主委你不能太一廂情願真的你不能太一廂情願我覺得你有這個看法我尊重但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情不是不無可能的所以我們要做風險管控我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們"},{"start":524.864,"end":535.934,"text":"他們不去不就沒事了嗎他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎他如果不去他在台灣他覺得他可能會虧本因為有關稅的議題當時剛去的時候還沒有在講關稅喔"},{"start":540.563,"end":563.903,"text":"有啦 已经在讲了啦没有 主委啊 所以你的意思是说现在你的意思是说如果台积电这些高科技的这些产业留在台湾就没有发展了 你的意思是这样吗我们讲的是台积电生态系是指的它的供应链供应链厂商要不要去我认为啦 就是今天你有这么执着的这样子的看法当然啦 我是不知道您真的是这样的看法还是不好"},{"start":564.844,"end":592,"text":"不好去打臉高層不過今天我想有很多的委員都會在這上面跟你做提醒畢竟你是我們這個主管我們所有科技這是最高的一個單位所以這些我們所有提醒這些風險的這個評估我希望你回去的時候還是要細細去咀嚼我們今天所有講的議題那同時剛才談到人才外流這件事當然你也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流但我必須要講"},{"start":592.62,"end":618.352,"text":"我们过去也花了很多的时间跟精力我们教委会也支持很多的预算我们做人才的培养可是你说人才都不会外流吗人才是只有跟他交流吗我想本席没有那么乐观你看我们花这么多钱来培养可是今天不带台积电去整个产业链要去你想我们培养出来的人才留在台湾无用武之地所以我想这一点当然你刚刚回答配项委员我也有听"},{"start":619.152,"end":625.619,"text":"那我希望你把今天我们给你的想法看法不同的角度回去其实还是要稍微去了解一下"},{"start":626.57,"end":655.942,"text":"你願意嗎謝謝委員指教接下來還有一點時間我想針對這一次這個艷澀湖的事件我們李鴻元部長有在講他說這此類高風險的地質災害政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力他也指出說我們現在我們都知道是農業部內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究可是資源重疊效率不好所以他建議要由國科會出面整合這一點你怎麼看"},{"start":658.858,"end":675.631,"text":"這個講法是好的是對的但是我們已經在做了我們國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊我們所有部會的監測資料會匯整到我們國家災防中心來我們長期在做資料的分析"},{"start":676.391,"end":692.583,"text":"提供包含资讯跟决策的情报我知道你们已经有在做但我认为就是说参考刚刚李洪源部长你也说对那我觉得我们高度要再拉起来然后那个宽度也要再拉宽那你刚刚讲那个资讯我想最后一点"},{"start":694.785,"end":715.476,"text":"國科會所屬的災防科技中心喔在這一次的災害當中9月4號就已經建置了馬太安溪的堰塞湖監測系統沒有錯嘛對不對那9月21號的時候呢在這個應變中心的中央災害應變中心第二次跟第三次會議當中你有提到第二次的時候下午兩點你說要匡列兩鄉四村里275人的數據對嗎"},{"start":717.677,"end":731.652,"text":"是的 好 但是呢 隔沒有四個小時 下午六點你把它匡列變成三鄉十二村里一千八百戶對不對 我請我們陳主任來回答 所以主委不曉得嗎我曉得 但是他細節他非常清楚 好"},{"start":733.11,"end":761.225,"text":"委員你好我想在9月21號的上午我只想要問這兩個數字對還是不對這個第三次的這一個部分是對的現在目前出來的這兩個數字是對的嘛那本期就要問了短短四個小時為什麼數字落差這麼大說真的數字落差這麼大我相信其實不管你要叫地方去做疏散這是非常高非常困難的一件事情那我們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要了可以簡單說明嗎"},{"start":762.806,"end":788.391,"text":"我們在三點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議然後還有跟縣政府還有跟地方光復慣容還有那個鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開會開視訊然後我們已經決定因為那個李教授你簡單打好不好我們周圍都站起來很簡單打那台大團隊已經把這些東西都已經告訴我們所以我們就跟地方聯絡所以我們畫出了目前這個部分"},{"start":789.711,"end":809.026,"text":"三個鄉鎮 十二個村 總共一千八百好啦 我想這個有答跟沒答一樣我只有一個期許我覺得像這麼重大一個事件其實未來我們怎麼強化自己更精準的監測那更詳細的數字那效率跟速度我就再把它提升這個是我對國科會的期許 好嗎所以我們會繼續努力 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時27分）謝謝召委。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委好。本席記得國科會在去（113）年12月27日曾經發布新聞稿指出，財劃法修正會影響200億的科技預算，有沒有這件事？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["萬委員美玲：後來今年有影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["萬委員美玲：今年有影響？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我那時候講的是下一年度，就是明年。"],["萬委員美玲：你去年講的，我當然是問你今年有沒有影響，所以今年沒有嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年有，因為我們的預算……"],["萬委員美玲：我在講今年的預算執行，不是預算編列。"],["吳主任委員誠文：執行沒有影響，編列的時候……"],["萬委員美玲：你知道我在問什麼，我們就不要用這樣的方式來進行今天的答詢，好不好？","我們又看到，今年7月16日你又再一次說了，因為財劃法會讓明年的科技預算少200億。你有這樣說嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["萬委員美玲：好。去（113）年的時候，你當時說會有影響，你有提到基礎科研、晶創與AI、太空科技、淨零科技都會少，但是你看，你剛剛回答本席沒有影響，所以去年列這些出來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我講明年、115年的編列……"],["萬委員美玲：你在去（113）年12月25日列了這些出來，但事實上在今年沒有減少。我們再來看，今（114）年7月16日……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["萬委員美玲：你聽我講完再來報告好不好？你都不聽，你怎麼知道本席要問什麼？你今天到底答詢怎麼回事，你的態度比委員還差！你如果不聽，你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，對不起。"],["主席：萬美玲委員，不要生氣。"],["萬委員美玲：不是，不可以這樣啦！主席，其實你就應該要制止官員這樣子。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為有時候你們都要用反面的方法來……"],["萬委員美玲：什麼叫做用反面的方法，委員質詢還要你教嗎？主席，我的時間要先暫停。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起、對不起。"],["萬委員美玲：主席，這質詢時間真的要暫停，這樣要怎麼質詢。"],["主席：暫停一下。"],["萬委員美玲：這要溝通一下啦！我們委員會的委員在質詢，還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起。"],["萬委員美玲：那你等一下可以修正，不要再用這樣的態度嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝主席。","我們看到今年主委也有說到，你們編列的預算因為財劃法又要少200億，我請教一下，你這個少200億是少什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：關於我們今年編的預算，後來謝謝萬召委的協助，並沒有少掉很多，但我現在擔心的其實是明年。"],["萬委員美玲：你擔心嗎？所以是你擔心，但你有對外說少200億，對不對？而且說真的，本席不願做很多政治的聯想，7月16日大罷免前你還繼續說因為財劃法又要少了200億，我是不知道是不是要跟上行政院的腳步，但我從來不認為你是這樣的人，所以你們明年的預算有少嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年的預算我們本來編列1,800億，但是行政院整個總預算的額度就不足，所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多億。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你下修，我們看一下，這是本席整理的近五年來科技預算，從111、112、113、114、115年，連年增加、每一年都在增加，你先看，這沒有錯，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯。"],["萬委員美玲：到了115年還是增加。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們一定要快速增加。"],["萬委員美玲：當然，我們也支持你的預算增加，不是嗎？委員會也很支持你的預算！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我們增加你的預算、支持你的預算，但你自己看這個決算，錢根本用不完，111年賸餘了一億五千多萬，112年還剩五億八千多萬，113年還是剩一億多，你根本用不完，執行率其實也不夠好，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有時候會有賸餘的原因是不可抗力的因素。"],["萬委員美玲：我同意！"],["吳主任委員誠文：譬如我們在做太空……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我今天不是要跟你討論預算為什麼要少編200億，我也不是要跟你討論決算用不完的是哪些東西，但我現在要告訴你，你去年說預算少200億，今年也說少200億，事實上沒有！事實上不但是一直在增加，而且決算也沒有用完。我今天要跟你提的就是，第一個、預算增加；第二個、過去三年你的執行率也沒有到百分之百。當然，你剛剛有提到財劃法之後、行政院整個做了一些調節以後，所以你不敢編到1,800億，你編1,600億。那就奇怪了，為什麼行政院對國防部就這麼好？國防部就不斷增加，我前天也問了教育部部長，那大家都來買一張椅子5萬塊，對不對？莫名其妙，國防部增加這樣，難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎？是不是？這點你也不用回答，你去想一想，你去想想這樣對還是不對。但是說真的，你在本席的心中不是那種意識型態的人，是一個認真做事的人，但我希望就不要跟這些事情沾上邊。","再來，我要接著剛剛林沛祥委員問的，再深入一點來問，我們看到鄭麗君副院長在完成臺美第五輪的實質磋商之後，針對擴大對美投資，他提出了要協助美方建立臺灣模式的產業聚落。我剛看到這一句話的時候，其實有點擔心也很shock，為什麼台積電過去不夠，還要變成是整個產業聚落？我正覺得納悶的時候，蕭美琴副總統接受外媒訪問就直接說，臺灣已經承諾美國要投資晶片產業，不僅台積電，還包括整個生態系，就是產業鏈全部要過去。這就是他們說的產業聚落，如果是這樣的說法跟文字，其實讓國人非常擔心。我想主委應該非常關心這件事情，你有參與相關的會議，對這樣的結果，你是贊成還是反對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個只是講法的問題，我跟委員解釋一下……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你的意思是，這是副院長跟副總統講法不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是講法不好。"],["萬委員美玲：因為你說是講法的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員解釋一下，行政院其實在鄭副院長領軍跟美國談判的過程當中，有好幾度邀請臺灣的產業界討論到美國投資的相關議題。"],["萬委員美玲：講重點。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為有關稅的問題存在，所以產業界就會考慮到是不是應該到美國投資會……"],["萬委員美玲：我知道！本席就是請教，您曾經參加過這個相關的會議嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有參加過。我參加過行政院的會議，所以我現在跟……"],["萬委員美玲：你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同。我跟委員報告，原因是什麼？"],["萬委員美玲：請說。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是因為產業界認為，如果政府不協助產業界把臺灣非常有效率的聚落、群聚，即我們開發工業區、科技工業區、科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊一起到美國投資，他們個別去的效率不高。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我就不懂了，什麼個別去、群體去？到底為什麼要去？這本來是我們的護國神山，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛已經講過……"],["萬委員美玲：我今天沒有跟你討論個別去、群體去。大家一起去比較互相有安全，你這個講法很奇怪！"],["吳主任委員誠文：去的話是對廠商有利啊！"],["萬委員美玲：我請教一下，你覺得我們整個這樣……"],["吳主任委員誠文：你都不讓我講。"],["萬委員美玲：我先問你，不管是你剛剛說的個別去、群體去或什麼產業聚落去……"],["吳主任委員誠文：他如果不去會被迫害啊！"],["萬委員美玲：會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是不會。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你能夠保證台積電等高科技產業的技術絕對不會外流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會。"],["萬委員美玲：你可以保證？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我保證。"],["萬委員美玲：你拿什麼保證？"],["吳主任委員誠文：廠商為什麼要把他的技術外流呢？這是他的命根子。"],["萬委員美玲：有時候不是廠商要外流，這有很多的因素在，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：台積電……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，你不能太一廂情願，你真的不能太一廂情願！你有這個看法，我尊重，但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情？不無可能，所以我們要做風險管控。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們，為了讓他們更有效率可以賺錢。"],["萬委員美玲：他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他如果不去，他覺得他在臺灣可能會虧本，因為有關稅的議題。"],["萬委員美玲：當時剛去還沒有在講關稅。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，已經在講了，已經在過程當中。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有！現在你的意思是，如果台積電這些高科技產業留在臺灣就沒有發展了。你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們講的台積電生態系指的是他的供應鏈，供應鏈廠商要不要去的議題。"],["萬委員美玲：今天你有這麼執著的看法，當然我不知道您是真的有這樣的看法，還是不好去打臉高層？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有！因為這真的是行政院的政策。"],["萬委員美玲：不過我想今天有很多委員都會在這上面跟你提醒，畢竟你主管所有科技的最高單位，針對我們所有的提醒及這些風險評估，我希望你回去的時候還是要細細咀嚼今天講的所有議題。","同時，剛才談到人才外流這件事，當然您也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流，但我必須要講，我們過去花了很多的時間跟精力，教委會也支持很多的預算培養人才，可是你說人才都不會外流嗎？人才是只有跟他交流嗎？本席沒有那麼樂觀。你看我們花這麼多錢來培養，可是今天不但台積電去，整個產業鏈都要去，我們培養出來的人才留在臺灣無用武之地。針對這一點，當然你剛剛回答沛祥委員，我有聽，但我希望你把今天我們給你的想法、看法及不同的角度，回去還是要稍微了解一下，你願意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員指教。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來還有一點時間，針對這一次堰塞湖的事件，李鴻源前部長有說，對於此類高風險的地質災害，政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力，他也指出，我們都知道現在農業部、內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究，可是資源重疊、效率不好，所以他建議要由國科會出面整合。這一點，你怎麼看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實這個講法是好的、是對的，但是我們已經在做了。國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊，所有部會監測的資料都會彙整到國家災防中心，我們長期在做這個資料的分析，提供包含資訊跟決策的情報給各部會。"],["萬委員美玲：我知道你們已經有在做，但我認為要參考剛剛李鴻源前部長的說法，你也說對，我覺得我們要把高度再拉起來。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["萬委員美玲：然後寬度也要再拉寬。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們會強化。"],["萬委員美玲：針對你剛剛講的那個資訊，我講最後一點，國科會所屬的災防科技中心在這一次災害當中，9月4號就已經建置了馬太鞍溪的堰塞湖監測系統，沒有錯，對不對？在9月21號下午2點中央災害應變中心第2次會議當中，你有提到要匡列2鄉、4村里、275人，這個數據對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：但是隔4個小時的下午6點，你把它匡列變成3鄉、12村里、1,800戶，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請陳主任來回答。"],["萬委員美玲：所以主委不曉得嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我曉得，但是他非常清楚細節。"],["萬委員美玲：好。"],["陳主任宏宇：委員，你好。在9月21號上午……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有！我只是要問，這兩個數字對還是不對？"],["陳主任宏宇：第3次的部分是對的。目前出來的……"],["萬委員美玲：這兩個數字是對的嘛？"],["陳主任宏宇：對。"],["萬委員美玲：那本席就要問了，短短4個小時，為什麼數字落差這麼大？說真的，數字落差這麼大，我相信要叫地方進行疏散，這是非常困難的一件事情，你們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要，可以簡單說明嗎？"],["陳主任宏宇：我們在3點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議，跟縣政府、光復、萬榮，還有跟它的鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開視訊會議，然後我們已經決定，因為李教授……"],["萬委員美玲：你簡單答好不好？我們召委都站起來了，你簡單答。"],["陳主任宏宇：臺大團隊已經把這些東西都告訴我們，所以我們就跟地方聯絡，我們劃出了目前這個部分是3個鄉鎮、12個村，總共1,800戶。"],["萬委員美玲：好啦，我想這個有答跟沒答一樣。我只有一個期許，我覺得像這麼重大的事件，未來我們怎麼強化更精準的監測、更詳細的數字，效率跟速度我覺得再把它提升，這個是我對國科會的期許，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會繼續努力，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員書彬代）：謝謝萬美玲委員，官員請回座。","現在請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}}