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對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘親姐姐為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 486.561, \"end\": 486.721, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 486.721, \"end\": 487.282, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 487.282, \"end\": 487.362, \"score\": 0.62}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 487.362, \"end\": 487.442, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 487.442, \"end\": 487.822, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 487.822, \"end\": 488.442, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 488.442, \"end\": 488.562, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 488.562, \"end\": 488.663, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 488.663, \"end\": 488.803, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 488.803, \"end\": 489.083, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", 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\"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 762.375, \"end\": 762.495, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 762.495, \"end\": 762.615, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"员\", \"start\": 762.615, \"end\": 762.635, \"score\": 0.002}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,100 --> 00:00:08,587\n我們是請主委請主委\n\n2\n00:00:11,991 --> 00:00:37,792\n科委委员好主委好你讲到人才的培养我看前面两个委员又让你火气出来其实主委你还是可以有一个比较用你自己自身的经验来回应这个问题在我们那个年代我们到美国去念书我们都有拿到奖学金我们到拿到奖学金的时候美国也没有要求我们要不要留下来对不对我们只要是那个环境可以然后我们如果有合法的一个签证我们就会有自我的一个选择\n\n3\n00:00:38,272 --> 00:00:55,006\n没错嘛而且所有的人才进进出出一个国家能够花费这么多钱他也没有跟你签任何的终身约他们是见过那个部分所以也不应该去argue到底是薪资好美国薪资很好美国的税也很高美国还有文化种族还有种种的一些的问题\n\n4\n00:00:55,066 --> 00:00:55,867\n这个我同意\n\n5\n00:01:14,488 --> 00:01:39,824\n完全嘛所以说你就把你自身经验你当初已经有很多美国公司也想recruit你啊可是你最后还是决定回到台湾也有你的坚持嘛所以人才的互通我想在这全世界都是一样的你用这个角度的利基点不用去辩论到底是如何你知道耗费太多时间这点你同意吗好不好但我还是要来问一下人才的问题啊因为最主要是Trump他实在太unpredictable他的这些对于这个所谓的\n\n6\n00:01:40,504 --> 00:01:53,662\n美国其实是最重视人才融入的地方它因为移民的政策还有包括签证的问题的确让很多世界很多国家就很想把这些人才弄出去所以你可以看到中国启动了K签证的计划欧盟1600亿\n\n7\n00:01:55,804 --> 00:02:21,537\n然后日本又是7亿然后韩国也退出了新加坡很多人想去他就完全取消了这个workingpermit这样的要求台湾我们目前来说我刚刚特别提到的有没有提供一个好的环境那才是留住人才最重要的那在这个布局当中请问国科会在1600亿的这样子的预算当中你到底有哪些因应的策略相对于其他国家\n\n8\n00:02:24,798 --> 00:02:39,475\n台湾要吸引人才进来从国外进来的话当然还有很多的配套措施要做但是在科技研发的部分我们当然现在是积极以我们办的其实我觉得我们台湾其实你最需要是我们的team\n\n9\n00:02:39,855 --> 00:02:57,505\n还有很多年轻的科技人才要进来我随便举个例子来说他愿意进住进来孩子的因素搞不好取得很好啊如果我的小孩能够在这个地方有个完整的环境等等之类的那你看我就忍不住要提到了我们很多的这个实验高中特别在我们的陆组的实验高中现在招生不足哎\n\n10\n00:02:57,745 --> 00:03:26,710\n新族是每个人都抢得进去我们陆族没有人要进去那你就去思考一下为什么会是这样遭多遭不满因为呢他刚要进驻的时候呢他用我们的一个幼昌国中根本就不是一个for这一群高级人才要进来的你当你没有办法配套没有让孩子有一个好的部分里面他其实会降低很多的诱因我只是提醒这个主委很多因素不是只有一个薪资旁边的配套你把它处理好那是我们的角色我们的责任\n\n11\n00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:49,137\n好不好我只是提供这个部分给你我们跟高雄市政府是你这个部分你看连招生部我们也觉得你这边是要让人家要来因为是第一年建设还在建设还要做所以你要加速加快这才好了我的时间还剩下来我们就回去来看我们的数据提到人才我们也花了一些钱但是你看你的核定的部分\n\n12\n00:03:49,597 --> 00:03:50,017\n哪些國家\n\n13\n00:04:16,277 --> 00:04:41,473\n哪里印度印度印度他本身的科技就很强了他来我们这个地方但是你做这些东西你没有后续里面他们都有多少人实习完毕之后对台湾因为我们钱花出去我刚刚虽然讲人才交流但是你还是要让他们对台湾还是有留下一些他后续的绩效你目前为止我说实在我没有看到任何的报告好像现在才要开始来做执行还有呢我再看看\n\n14\n00:04:42,173 --> 00:04:58,741\n你要去追踪还有包括你看你目前来说一日补助了28413补助了560个到底有多少人会留下来就读或是就业目前为止我也没有看到你们给我任何的详细的这就是钱花出去我没有看到绩效啊对不对\n\n15\n00:04:59,762 --> 00:05:27,824\n主委我会让你有机会讲然后我们再看看同样是你看延揽客座科技人才这几十年来你的人才的人数很明显下降的趋势所以表示刚刚前面两位委员不是没有道理的他们是担心我们的人才培养好到国外去人家不回来但是我担心的是我们给那么多人请他留下来人家也不想留包括你的下降趋势所以我们台湾的确在诱因的部分里面是差其他国家差很多这是我们要面对的现实\n\n16\n00:05:28,615 --> 00:05:50,088\n我們其實不是說有一直下降啦大約維持這個數字但是很多我們其實有增加人來但是他們進到業界的會比較多我要有數字我還要有數據因為這個部分裡面我們也是交流我不想違反我前面所講的交流當中你的績效在哪裡我們目前沒有看到可是數字裡面顯然是一個下降而且\n\n17\n00:05:51,129 --> 00:06:18,991\n报告委员就是我们有努力在调查但是台湾是一个自由民主国家我们问他他不见得会讲他到哪个地方工作那你就要克服就像我们调查我们毕业生的就业部分我们要克服但是我们可以从老委会那边投保的老保的部分来做你有很多方法来你是国科会你一定有方法我只是提出来我需要看到一些的绩效而且我还这边让我想到的你刚刚望美林委员讲的我本来事实真的是觉得很\n\n18\n00:06:19,671 --> 00:06:45,921\n那個主委你真的是從科技從科技來真的講話我們還是距離這個政治遠一點今年並沒有減少200億明年1600億減少200億比你預估的1800億少但還是史上最高的國科會的預算雖然我知道你有很多事情要做但是你的重點是要跟你的行政院長去要為什麼創造史上最高力國防預算沒有減\n\n19\n00:06:46,661 --> 00:07:15,148\n我們的國科會解所以目前不是在裁劃法是你行政院沒給你這麼多錢你要冤有頭債有主你現在把裁劃法弄出來更講出來難道科技不上普發一萬嗎主委這不是你應該說的話好不好我們要就實來去講你這樣會讓很多的委員會跳腳不是裁劃法的問題是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊所以才給你撿200億要把它澄清清楚\n\n20\n00:07:17,018 --> 00:07:30,676\n其實我指的是說今年年初其實上個會期委員也在問說今年沒有是明年會有影響那明年你的預算還是史上最多所以呢但不是問題不在才化法\n\n21\n00:07:31,357 --> 00:07:55,162\n主委問題不在才化法是行政院的Priority沒有把你放在跟國防跟其他一樣多我只是幫助你把事情釐清所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中不要製造國會會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔好不好這樣啦跟你說一聲啦來接下來還是講了這麼多的錢我們還是要問到一個非常你們的管理的問題郭延淵院長有沒有在蔡院長在這裡\n\n22\n00:07:58,158 --> 00:08:02,408\n來這部長所長這都要知道一下你們國研院是不是有對於離職作業辦法有這個所謂的迴避原則應該有吧\n\n23\n00:08:06,561 --> 00:08:28,257\n有的謝謝有的嘛對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘親姐姐為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有\n\n24\n00:08:29,455 --> 00:08:42,019\n報告委員因為願聘的這個顧問因為國務院底下有七個中心那實際上在技術專業上有必要的時候會跟中心一起互動那你有中心互動那你中心互動裡面長期進駐到你們這個中心會不會自達連你們這個回覆原則\n\n25\n00:08:47,901 --> 00:09:10,389\n你雖然你的聘騎士你的聘任是在你們院的聘顧問這個人卻長期在這個中心進駐然後呢跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心這是閃避法規啊這完全就是你們自己在這個地方的落實性有沒有有沒有落實先告訴我你如果可以聘親姐姐委有幾職顧問是直系親屬可以親姐姐那你要你們的法務處的處長幹什麼\n\n26\n00:09:12,386 --> 00:09:27,561\n你可不可以先回答这个问题而且我可以一边让你来回答这是你们的法规在这个地方而且呢很多地方还有接乎你们的爆料里面你们还常常用你们的自筹款自筹款也是公款你们往下一个你们自筹款里面还可以来做一个\n\n27\n00:09:27,981 --> 00:09:49,869\n我研究員今年年底才會從美國回來幫他先添購了1400萬也是讓這個你們願聘的顧問來專門使用而且呢這麼貴的這個這個儀器當中呢光是做訓練一般人不敢碰觸這都是你們在在使用然後告訴我只要有人一邊說這就叫你們自籌款你們那麼多自籌款你們有沒有違反公務人員的認定你們號稱都是叫自籌款\n\n28\n00:09:52,290 --> 00:10:11,825\n自籌款也是公款自籌款可以這樣去用嗎而且呢據說你們還要在這個給你們這個生物中心4年3億元永遠你告訴我會有更多的剩餘款然後每次把它當作自籌款自籌款是這樣使用的嗎院長這個東西你要不要調查清楚只有你們這個生物中心是這樣子嗎還是其他中心也會有\n\n29\n00:10:12,881 --> 00:10:37,562\n你要么就有两种选择一个就是修改你们的法规第二个就是就是让你们没有修改法规状况下你就好好的去测查还有在下面一个在这个过程当中呢你们在实行这个这个兔的安乐死的过程因为药剂不足你让这只兔子然后呢疼痛的到处乱撞然后呢最后然后实际伤害录下来把它当心得报告\n\n30\n00:10:38,735 --> 00:10:54,790\n院长如果这件事情让你的TripleAlex知道的话你觉得会不会影响到你们未来在整个地方对动物实验上面的一个部分这都是你所想下面所有里面所发生的所有的问题院长请你一并回应\n\n31\n00:10:56,031 --> 00:11:23,498\n是报告委员第一个部分就有关聘任资深顾问的部分那特别因为这个资深的顾问呢他的专场是在3R那这是现在整个生物科技领域里面非常重要你可以你聘在院然后你为了躲避原则因为你不能有配偶不能有执行系统在同一个中心所以你就在院里面去聘但是他实际的工作地方是在同一个中心是这样子吗跟委员报告其实3R的计划其实每个月是我在负责主持的是院部在负责主持\n\n32\n00:11:23,558 --> 00:11:43,434\n你要不要去看看這個主任直系的這個配偶的主任辦公室在這個生物中心所做的每一件事情主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子然後說是要自儲款院長你調查清楚而且不是只有這個中心調查清楚你旗下的七個中心有沒有調查清楚因為這是屬於這個部分\n\n33\n00:11:44,094 --> 00:12:12,937\n所以主委這件事情也請你為務必督促我需要有一個非常清楚的檢查報告我要嗎你就是修你看敢不敢修改你們的法令你不修改法令的話就把你們七個下面的這個中心全部清楚有沒有盡情繁衍的問題有沒有拿著怨顧問的這個問題然後再做完全不是這樣的部分有沒有出國的爆炸有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款我要一併要很清楚的調查報告這已經不是一個中心所提出來主委你可以做得到嗎我請國務院想進\n\n34\n00:12:13,598 --> 00:12:42,635\n包括我刚刚说的这样子的一个实验的部分当初有这个漏针有漏液的这个问题让我们的生物是这样子的方法来产生这些都是主委这些虽然不是你主辖但这些的管理的原则可以反映出我们在培养这些人才培养这个法规制度里面的一个制度层面这个每个部分我们都要够严谨你才要来告诉我们这个中心是值得大家被信赖的你同意吧同意谢谢委员\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5100\t8587\t我們是請主委請主委\n11991\t37792\t科委委员好主委好你讲到人才的培养我看前面两个委员又让你火气出来其实主委你还是可以有一个比较用你自己自身的经验来回应这个问题在我们那个年代我们到美国去念书我们都有拿到奖学金我们到拿到奖学金的时候美国也没有要求我们要不要留下来对不对我们只要是那个环境可以然后我们如果有合法的一个签证我们就会有自我的一个选择\n38272\t55006\t没错嘛而且所有的人才进进出出一个国家能够花费这么多钱他也没有跟你签任何的终身约他们是见过那个部分所以也不应该去argue到底是薪资好美国薪资很好美国的税也很高美国还有文化种族还有种种的一些的问题\n55066\t55867\t这个我同意\n74488\t99824\t完全嘛所以说你就把你自身经验你当初已经有很多美国公司也想recruit你啊可是你最后还是决定回到台湾也有你的坚持嘛所以人才的互通我想在这全世界都是一样的你用这个角度的利基点不用去辩论到底是如何你知道耗费太多时间这点你同意吗好不好但我还是要来问一下人才的问题啊因为最主要是Trump他实在太unpredictable他的这些对于这个所谓的\n100504\t113662\t美国其实是最重视人才融入的地方它因为移民的政策还有包括签证的问题的确让很多世界很多国家就很想把这些人才弄出去所以你可以看到中国启动了K签证的计划欧盟1600亿\n115804\t141537\t然后日本又是7亿然后韩国也退出了新加坡很多人想去他就完全取消了这个working permit这样的要求台湾我们目前来说我刚刚特别提到的有没有提供一个好的环境那才是留住人才最重要的那在这个布局当中请问国科会在1600亿的这样子的预算当中你到底有哪些因应的策略相对于其他国家\n144798\t159475\t台湾要吸引人才进来从国外进来的话当然还有很多的配套措施要做但是在科技研发的部分我们当然现在是积极以我们办的其实我觉得我们台湾其实你最需要是我们的team\n159855\t177505\t还有很多年轻的科技人才要进来我随便举个例子来说他愿意进住进来孩子的因素搞不好取得很好啊如果我的小孩能够在这个地方有个完整的环境等等之类的那你看我就忍不住要提到了我们很多的这个实验高中特别在我们的陆组的实验高中现在招生不足哎\n177745\t206710\t新族是每个人都抢得进去我们陆族没有人要进去那你就去思考一下为什么会是这样遭多遭不满因为呢他刚要进驻的时候呢他用我们的一个幼昌国中根本就不是一个for这一群高级人才要进来的你当你没有办法配套没有让孩子有一个好的部分里面他其实会降低很多的诱因我只是提醒这个主委很多因素不是只有一个薪资旁边的配套你把它处理好那是我们的角色我们的责任\n207170\t229137\t好不好我只是提供这个部分给你我们跟高雄市政府是你这个部分你看连招生部我们也觉得你这边是要让人家要来因为是第一年建设还在建设还要做所以你要加速加快这才好了我的时间还剩下来我们就回去来看我们的数据提到人才我们也花了一些钱但是你看你的核定的部分\n229597\t230017\t哪些國家\n256277\t281473\t哪里印度印度印度他本身的科技就很强了他来我们这个地方但是你做这些东西你没有后续里面他们都有多少人实习完毕之后对台湾因为我们钱花出去我刚刚虽然讲人才交流但是你还是要让他们对台湾还是有留下一些他后续的绩效你目前为止我说实在我没有看到任何的报告好像现在才要开始来做执行还有呢我再看看\n282173\t298741\t你要去追踪还有包括你看你目前来说一日补助了28413补助了560个到底有多少人会留下来就读或是就业目前为止我也没有看到你们给我任何的详细的这就是钱花出去我没有看到绩效啊对不对\n299762\t327824\t主委我会让你有机会讲然后我们再看看同样是你看延揽客座科技人才这几十年来你的人才的人数很明显下降的趋势所以表示刚刚前面两位委员不是没有道理的他们是担心我们的人才培养好到国外去人家不回来但是我担心的是我们给那么多人请他留下来人家也不想留包括你的下降趋势所以我们台湾的确在诱因的部分里面是差其他国家差很多这是我们要面对的现实\n328615\t350088\t我們其實不是說有一直下降啦大約維持這個數字但是很多我們其實有增加人來但是他們進到業界的會比較多我要有數字我還要有數據因為這個部分裡面我們也是交流我不想違反我前面所講的交流當中你的績效在哪裡我們目前沒有看到可是數字裡面顯然是一個下降而且\n351129\t378991\t报告委员就是我们有努力在调查但是台湾是一个自由民主国家我们问他他不见得会讲他到哪个地方工作那你就要克服就像我们调查我们毕业生的就业部分我们要克服但是我们可以从老委会那边投保的老保的部分来做你有很多方法来你是国科会你一定有方法我只是提出来我需要看到一些的绩效而且我还这边让我想到的你刚刚望美林委员讲的我本来事实真的是觉得很\n379671\t405921\t那個主委你真的是從科技從科技來真的講話我們還是距離這個政治遠一點今年並沒有減少200億明年1600億減少200億比你預估的1800億少但還是史上最高的國科會的預算雖然我知道你有很多事情要做但是你的重點是要跟你的行政院長去要為什麼創造史上最高力國防預算沒有減\n406661\t435148\t我們的國科會解所以目前不是在裁劃法是你行政院沒給你這麼多錢你要冤有頭債有主你現在把裁劃法弄出來更講出來難道科技不上普發一萬嗎主委這不是你應該說的話好不好我們要就實來去講你這樣會讓很多的委員會跳腳不是裁劃法的問題是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊所以才給你撿200億要把它澄清清楚\n437018\t450676\t其實我指的是說今年年初其實上個會期委員也在問說今年沒有是明年會有影響那明年你的預算還是史上最多所以呢但不是問題不在才化法\n451357\t475162\t主委 問題不在才化法是行政院的Priority沒有把你放在跟國防跟其他一樣多我只是幫助你把事情釐清所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中不要製造國會會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔好不好這樣啦 跟你說一聲啦來 接下來還是講了這麼多的錢我們還是要問到一個非常你們的管理的問題郭延淵院長有沒有在蔡院長在這裡\n478158\t482408\t來 這部長 所長這都要知道一下你們國研院是不是有對於離職作業辦法有這個所謂的迴避原則 應該有吧\n486561\t508257\t有的 謝謝有的嘛 對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘親姐姐為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有\n509455\t522019\t報告委員因為願聘的這個顧問因為國務院底下有七個中心那實際上在技術專業上有必要的時候會跟中心一起互動那你有中心互動那你中心互動裡面長期進駐到你們這個中心會不會自達連你們這個回覆原則\n527901\t550389\t你雖然你的聘騎士你的聘任是在你們院的聘顧問這個人卻長期在這個中心進駐然後呢跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心這是閃避法規啊這完全就是你們自己在這個地方的落實性有沒有有沒有落實先告訴我你如果可以聘親姐姐委有幾職顧問是直系親屬可以親姐姐那你要你們的法務處的處長幹什麼\n552386\t567561\t你可不可以先回答这个问题而且我可以一边让你来回答这是你们的法规在这个地方而且呢很多地方还有接乎你们的爆料里面你们还常常用你们的自筹款自筹款也是公款你们往下一个你们自筹款里面还可以来做一个\n567981\t589869\t我研究員今年年底才會從美國回來幫他先添購了1400萬也是讓這個你們願聘的顧問來專門使用而且呢這麼貴的這個這個儀器當中呢光是做訓練一般人不敢碰觸這都是你們在在使用然後告訴我只要有人一邊說這就叫你們自籌款你們那麼多自籌款你們有沒有違反公務人員的認定你們號稱都是叫自籌款\n592290\t611825\t自籌款也是公款 自籌款可以這樣去用嗎而且呢據說你們還要在這個給你們這個生物中心4年3億元永遠你告訴我會有更多的剩餘款然後每次把它當作自籌款自籌款是這樣使用的嗎 院長這個東西你要不要調查清楚只有你們這個生物中心是這樣子嗎還是其他中心也會有\n612881\t637562\t你要么就有两种选择一个就是修改你们的法规第二个就是就是让你们没有修改法规状况下你就好好的去测查还有在下面一个在这个过程当中呢你们在实行这个这个兔的安乐死的过程因为药剂不足你让这只兔子然后呢疼痛的到处乱撞然后呢最后然后实际伤害录下来把它当心得报告\n638735\t654790\t院长如果这件事情让你的Triple Alex知道的话你觉得会不会影响到你们未来在整个地方对动物实验上面的一个部分这都是你所想下面所有里面所发生的所有的问题院长请你一并回应\n656031\t683498\t是 报告委员第一个部分就有关聘任资深顾问的部分那特别因为这个资深的顾问呢他的专场是在3R那这是现在整个生物科技领域里面非常重要你可以你聘在院然后你为了躲避原则因为你不能有配偶不能有执行系统在同一个中心所以你就在院里面去聘但是他实际的工作地方是在同一个中心是这样子吗跟委员报告其实3R的计划其实每个月是我在负责主持的是院部在负责主持\n683558\t703434\t你要不要去看看這個主任直系的這個配偶的主任辦公室在這個生物中心所做的每一件事情主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子然後說是要自儲款院長你調查清楚而且不是只有這個中心調查清楚你旗下的七個中心有沒有調查清楚因為這是屬於這個部分\n704094\t732937\t所以主委這件事情也請你為務必督促我需要有一個非常清楚的檢查報告我要嗎 你就是修 你看敢不敢修改你們的法令你不修改法令的話就把你們七個下面的這個中心全部清楚有沒有盡情繁衍的問題有沒有拿著怨顧問的這個問題然後再做完全不是這樣的部分有沒有出國的爆炸有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款我要一併要很清楚的調查報告這已經不是一個中心所提出來主委你可以做得到嗎我請國務院想進\n733598\t762635\t包括我刚刚说的这样子的一个实验的部分当初有这个漏针有漏液的这个问题让我们的生物是这样子的方法来产生这些都是主委这些虽然不是你主辖但这些的管理的原则可以反映出我们在培养这些人才培养这个法规制度里面的一个制度层面这个每个部分我们都要够严谨你才要来告诉我们这个中心是值得大家被信赖的你同意吧同意谢谢委员\n","txt":"我們是請主委請主委\n科委委员好主委好你讲到人才的培养我看前面两个委员又让你火气出来其实主委你还是可以有一个比较用你自己自身的经验来回应这个问题在我们那个年代我们到美国去念书我们都有拿到奖学金我们到拿到奖学金的时候美国也没有要求我们要不要留下来对不对我们只要是那个环境可以然后我们如果有合法的一个签证我们就会有自我的一个选择\n没错嘛而且所有的人才进进出出一个国家能够花费这么多钱他也没有跟你签任何的终身约他们是见过那个部分所以也不应该去argue到底是薪资好美国薪资很好美国的税也很高美国还有文化种族还有种种的一些的问题\n这个我同意\n完全嘛所以说你就把你自身经验你当初已经有很多美国公司也想recruit你啊可是你最后还是决定回到台湾也有你的坚持嘛所以人才的互通我想在这全世界都是一样的你用这个角度的利基点不用去辩论到底是如何你知道耗费太多时间这点你同意吗好不好但我还是要来问一下人才的问题啊因为最主要是Trump他实在太unpredictable他的这些对于这个所谓的\n美国其实是最重视人才融入的地方它因为移民的政策还有包括签证的问题的确让很多世界很多国家就很想把这些人才弄出去所以你可以看到中国启动了K签证的计划欧盟1600亿\n然后日本又是7亿然后韩国也退出了新加坡很多人想去他就完全取消了这个working permit这样的要求台湾我们目前来说我刚刚特别提到的有没有提供一个好的环境那才是留住人才最重要的那在这个布局当中请问国科会在1600亿的这样子的预算当中你到底有哪些因应的策略相对于其他国家\n台湾要吸引人才进来从国外进来的话当然还有很多的配套措施要做但是在科技研发的部分我们当然现在是积极以我们办的其实我觉得我们台湾其实你最需要是我们的team\n还有很多年轻的科技人才要进来我随便举个例子来说他愿意进住进来孩子的因素搞不好取得很好啊如果我的小孩能够在这个地方有个完整的环境等等之类的那你看我就忍不住要提到了我们很多的这个实验高中特别在我们的陆组的实验高中现在招生不足哎\n新族是每个人都抢得进去我们陆族没有人要进去那你就去思考一下为什么会是这样遭多遭不满因为呢他刚要进驻的时候呢他用我们的一个幼昌国中根本就不是一个for这一群高级人才要进来的你当你没有办法配套没有让孩子有一个好的部分里面他其实会降低很多的诱因我只是提醒这个主委很多因素不是只有一个薪资旁边的配套你把它处理好那是我们的角色我们的责任\n好不好我只是提供这个部分给你我们跟高雄市政府是你这个部分你看连招生部我们也觉得你这边是要让人家要来因为是第一年建设还在建设还要做所以你要加速加快这才好了我的时间还剩下来我们就回去来看我们的数据提到人才我们也花了一些钱但是你看你的核定的部分\n哪些國家\n哪里印度印度印度他本身的科技就很强了他来我们这个地方但是你做这些东西你没有后续里面他们都有多少人实习完毕之后对台湾因为我们钱花出去我刚刚虽然讲人才交流但是你还是要让他们对台湾还是有留下一些他后续的绩效你目前为止我说实在我没有看到任何的报告好像现在才要开始来做执行还有呢我再看看\n你要去追踪还有包括你看你目前来说一日补助了28413补助了560个到底有多少人会留下来就读或是就业目前为止我也没有看到你们给我任何的详细的这就是钱花出去我没有看到绩效啊对不对\n主委我会让你有机会讲然后我们再看看同样是你看延揽客座科技人才这几十年来你的人才的人数很明显下降的趋势所以表示刚刚前面两位委员不是没有道理的他们是担心我们的人才培养好到国外去人家不回来但是我担心的是我们给那么多人请他留下来人家也不想留包括你的下降趋势所以我们台湾的确在诱因的部分里面是差其他国家差很多这是我们要面对的现实\n我們其實不是說有一直下降啦大約維持這個數字但是很多我們其實有增加人來但是他們進到業界的會比較多我要有數字我還要有數據因為這個部分裡面我們也是交流我不想違反我前面所講的交流當中你的績效在哪裡我們目前沒有看到可是數字裡面顯然是一個下降而且\n报告委员就是我们有努力在调查但是台湾是一个自由民主国家我们问他他不见得会讲他到哪个地方工作那你就要克服就像我们调查我们毕业生的就业部分我们要克服但是我们可以从老委会那边投保的老保的部分来做你有很多方法来你是国科会你一定有方法我只是提出来我需要看到一些的绩效而且我还这边让我想到的你刚刚望美林委员讲的我本来事实真的是觉得很\n那個主委你真的是從科技從科技來真的講話我們還是距離這個政治遠一點今年並沒有減少200億明年1600億減少200億比你預估的1800億少但還是史上最高的國科會的預算雖然我知道你有很多事情要做但是你的重點是要跟你的行政院長去要為什麼創造史上最高力國防預算沒有減\n我們的國科會解所以目前不是在裁劃法是你行政院沒給你這麼多錢你要冤有頭債有主你現在把裁劃法弄出來更講出來難道科技不上普發一萬嗎主委這不是你應該說的話好不好我們要就實來去講你這樣會讓很多的委員會跳腳不是裁劃法的問題是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊所以才給你撿200億要把它澄清清楚\n其實我指的是說今年年初其實上個會期委員也在問說今年沒有是明年會有影響那明年你的預算還是史上最多所以呢但不是問題不在才化法\n主委 問題不在才化法是行政院的Priority沒有把你放在跟國防跟其他一樣多我只是幫助你把事情釐清所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中不要製造國會會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔好不好這樣啦 跟你說一聲啦來 接下來還是講了這麼多的錢我們還是要問到一個非常你們的管理的問題郭延淵院長有沒有在蔡院長在這裡\n來 這部長 所長這都要知道一下你們國研院是不是有對於離職作業辦法有這個所謂的迴避原則 應該有吧\n有的 謝謝有的嘛 對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘親姐姐為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有\n報告委員因為願聘的這個顧問因為國務院底下有七個中心那實際上在技術專業上有必要的時候會跟中心一起互動那你有中心互動那你中心互動裡面長期進駐到你們這個中心會不會自達連你們這個回覆原則\n你雖然你的聘騎士你的聘任是在你們院的聘顧問這個人卻長期在這個中心進駐然後呢跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心這是閃避法規啊這完全就是你們自己在這個地方的落實性有沒有有沒有落實先告訴我你如果可以聘親姐姐委有幾職顧問是直系親屬可以親姐姐那你要你們的法務處的處長幹什麼\n你可不可以先回答这个问题而且我可以一边让你来回答这是你们的法规在这个地方而且呢很多地方还有接乎你们的爆料里面你们还常常用你们的自筹款自筹款也是公款你们往下一个你们自筹款里面还可以来做一个\n我研究員今年年底才會從美國回來幫他先添購了1400萬也是讓這個你們願聘的顧問來專門使用而且呢這麼貴的這個這個儀器當中呢光是做訓練一般人不敢碰觸這都是你們在在使用然後告訴我只要有人一邊說這就叫你們自籌款你們那麼多自籌款你們有沒有違反公務人員的認定你們號稱都是叫自籌款\n自籌款也是公款 自籌款可以這樣去用嗎而且呢據說你們還要在這個給你們這個生物中心4年3億元永遠你告訴我會有更多的剩餘款然後每次把它當作自籌款自籌款是這樣使用的嗎 院長這個東西你要不要調查清楚只有你們這個生物中心是這樣子嗎還是其他中心也會有\n你要么就有两种选择一个就是修改你们的法规第二个就是就是让你们没有修改法规状况下你就好好的去测查还有在下面一个在这个过程当中呢你们在实行这个这个兔的安乐死的过程因为药剂不足你让这只兔子然后呢疼痛的到处乱撞然后呢最后然后实际伤害录下来把它当心得报告\n院长如果这件事情让你的Triple Alex知道的话你觉得会不会影响到你们未来在整个地方对动物实验上面的一个部分这都是你所想下面所有里面所发生的所有的问题院长请你一并回应\n是 报告委员第一个部分就有关聘任资深顾问的部分那特别因为这个资深的顾问呢他的专场是在3R那这是现在整个生物科技领域里面非常重要你可以你聘在院然后你为了躲避原则因为你不能有配偶不能有执行系统在同一个中心所以你就在院里面去聘但是他实际的工作地方是在同一个中心是这样子吗跟委员报告其实3R的计划其实每个月是我在负责主持的是院部在负责主持\n你要不要去看看這個主任直系的這個配偶的主任辦公室在這個生物中心所做的每一件事情主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子然後說是要自儲款院長你調查清楚而且不是只有這個中心調查清楚你旗下的七個中心有沒有調查清楚因為這是屬於這個部分\n所以主委這件事情也請你為務必督促我需要有一個非常清楚的檢查報告我要嗎 你就是修 你看敢不敢修改你們的法令你不修改法令的話就把你們七個下面的這個中心全部清楚有沒有盡情繁衍的問題有沒有拿著怨顧問的這個問題然後再做完全不是這樣的部分有沒有出國的爆炸有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款我要一併要很清楚的調查報告這已經不是一個中心所提出來主委你可以做得到嗎我請國務院想進\n包括我刚刚说的这样子的一个实验的部分当初有这个漏针有漏液的这个问题让我们的生物是这样子的方法来产生这些都是主委这些虽然不是你主辖但这些的管理的原则可以反映出我们在培养这些人才培养这个法规制度里面的一个制度层面这个每个部分我们都要够严谨你才要来告诉我们这个中心是值得大家被信赖的你同意吧同意谢谢委员\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.100 --> 00:08.587\n我們是請主委請主委\n\n00:11.991 --> 00:37.792\n科委委员好主委好你讲到人才的培养我看前面两个委员又让你火气出来其实主委你还是可以有一个比较用你自己自身的经验来回应这个问题在我们那个年代我们到美国去念书我们都有拿到奖学金我们到拿到奖学金的时候美国也没有要求我们要不要留下来对不对我们只要是那个环境可以然后我们如果有合法的一个签证我们就会有自我的一个选择\n\n00:38.272 --> 00:55.006\n没错嘛而且所有的人才进进出出一个国家能够花费这么多钱他也没有跟你签任何的终身约他们是见过那个部分所以也不应该去argue到底是薪资好美国薪资很好美国的税也很高美国还有文化种族还有种种的一些的问题\n\n00:55.066 --> 00:55.867\n这个我同意\n\n01:14.488 --> 01:39.824\n完全嘛所以说你就把你自身经验你当初已经有很多美国公司也想recruit你啊可是你最后还是决定回到台湾也有你的坚持嘛所以人才的互通我想在这全世界都是一样的你用这个角度的利基点不用去辩论到底是如何你知道耗费太多时间这点你同意吗好不好但我还是要来问一下人才的问题啊因为最主要是Trump他实在太unpredictable他的这些对于这个所谓的\n\n01:40.504 --> 01:53.662\n美国其实是最重视人才融入的地方它因为移民的政策还有包括签证的问题的确让很多世界很多国家就很想把这些人才弄出去所以你可以看到中国启动了K签证的计划欧盟1600亿\n\n01:55.804 --> 02:21.537\n然后日本又是7亿然后韩国也退出了新加坡很多人想去他就完全取消了这个workingpermit这样的要求台湾我们目前来说我刚刚特别提到的有没有提供一个好的环境那才是留住人才最重要的那在这个布局当中请问国科会在1600亿的这样子的预算当中你到底有哪些因应的策略相对于其他国家\n\n02:24.798 --> 02:39.475\n台湾要吸引人才进来从国外进来的话当然还有很多的配套措施要做但是在科技研发的部分我们当然现在是积极以我们办的其实我觉得我们台湾其实你最需要是我们的team\n\n02:39.855 --> 02:57.505\n还有很多年轻的科技人才要进来我随便举个例子来说他愿意进住进来孩子的因素搞不好取得很好啊如果我的小孩能够在这个地方有个完整的环境等等之类的那你看我就忍不住要提到了我们很多的这个实验高中特别在我们的陆组的实验高中现在招生不足哎\n\n02:57.745 --> 03:26.710\n新族是每个人都抢得进去我们陆族没有人要进去那你就去思考一下为什么会是这样遭多遭不满因为呢他刚要进驻的时候呢他用我们的一个幼昌国中根本就不是一个for这一群高级人才要进来的你当你没有办法配套没有让孩子有一个好的部分里面他其实会降低很多的诱因我只是提醒这个主委很多因素不是只有一个薪资旁边的配套你把它处理好那是我们的角色我们的责任\n\n03:27.170 --> 03:49.137\n好不好我只是提供这个部分给你我们跟高雄市政府是你这个部分你看连招生部我们也觉得你这边是要让人家要来因为是第一年建设还在建设还要做所以你要加速加快这才好了我的时间还剩下来我们就回去来看我们的数据提到人才我们也花了一些钱但是你看你的核定的部分\n\n03:49.597 --> 03:50.017\n哪些國家\n\n04:16.277 --> 04:41.473\n哪里印度印度印度他本身的科技就很强了他来我们这个地方但是你做这些东西你没有后续里面他们都有多少人实习完毕之后对台湾因为我们钱花出去我刚刚虽然讲人才交流但是你还是要让他们对台湾还是有留下一些他后续的绩效你目前为止我说实在我没有看到任何的报告好像现在才要开始来做执行还有呢我再看看\n\n04:42.173 --> 04:58.741\n你要去追踪还有包括你看你目前来说一日补助了28413补助了560个到底有多少人会留下来就读或是就业目前为止我也没有看到你们给我任何的详细的这就是钱花出去我没有看到绩效啊对不对\n\n04:59.762 --> 05:27.824\n主委我会让你有机会讲然后我们再看看同样是你看延揽客座科技人才这几十年来你的人才的人数很明显下降的趋势所以表示刚刚前面两位委员不是没有道理的他们是担心我们的人才培养好到国外去人家不回来但是我担心的是我们给那么多人请他留下来人家也不想留包括你的下降趋势所以我们台湾的确在诱因的部分里面是差其他国家差很多这是我们要面对的现实\n\n05:28.615 --> 05:50.088\n我們其實不是說有一直下降啦大約維持這個數字但是很多我們其實有增加人來但是他們進到業界的會比較多我要有數字我還要有數據因為這個部分裡面我們也是交流我不想違反我前面所講的交流當中你的績效在哪裡我們目前沒有看到可是數字裡面顯然是一個下降而且\n\n05:51.129 --> 06:18.991\n报告委员就是我们有努力在调查但是台湾是一个自由民主国家我们问他他不见得会讲他到哪个地方工作那你就要克服就像我们调查我们毕业生的就业部分我们要克服但是我们可以从老委会那边投保的老保的部分来做你有很多方法来你是国科会你一定有方法我只是提出来我需要看到一些的绩效而且我还这边让我想到的你刚刚望美林委员讲的我本来事实真的是觉得很\n\n06:19.671 --> 06:45.921\n那個主委你真的是從科技從科技來真的講話我們還是距離這個政治遠一點今年並沒有減少200億明年1600億減少200億比你預估的1800億少但還是史上最高的國科會的預算雖然我知道你有很多事情要做但是你的重點是要跟你的行政院長去要為什麼創造史上最高力國防預算沒有減\n\n06:46.661 --> 07:15.148\n我們的國科會解所以目前不是在裁劃法是你行政院沒給你這麼多錢你要冤有頭債有主你現在把裁劃法弄出來更講出來難道科技不上普發一萬嗎主委這不是你應該說的話好不好我們要就實來去講你這樣會讓很多的委員會跳腳不是裁劃法的問題是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊所以才給你撿200億要把它澄清清楚\n\n07:17.018 --> 07:30.676\n其實我指的是說今年年初其實上個會期委員也在問說今年沒有是明年會有影響那明年你的預算還是史上最多所以呢但不是問題不在才化法\n\n07:31.357 --> 07:55.162\n主委問題不在才化法是行政院的Priority沒有把你放在跟國防跟其他一樣多我只是幫助你把事情釐清所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中不要製造國會會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔好不好這樣啦跟你說一聲啦來接下來還是講了這麼多的錢我們還是要問到一個非常你們的管理的問題郭延淵院長有沒有在蔡院長在這裡\n\n07:58.158 --> 08:02.408\n來這部長所長這都要知道一下你們國研院是不是有對於離職作業辦法有這個所謂的迴避原則應該有吧\n\n08:06.561 --> 08:28.257\n有的謝謝有的嘛對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘親姐姐為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有\n\n08:29.455 --> 08:42.019\n報告委員因為願聘的這個顧問因為國務院底下有七個中心那實際上在技術專業上有必要的時候會跟中心一起互動那你有中心互動那你中心互動裡面長期進駐到你們這個中心會不會自達連你們這個回覆原則\n\n08:47.901 --> 09:10.389\n你雖然你的聘騎士你的聘任是在你們院的聘顧問這個人卻長期在這個中心進駐然後呢跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心這是閃避法規啊這完全就是你們自己在這個地方的落實性有沒有有沒有落實先告訴我你如果可以聘親姐姐委有幾職顧問是直系親屬可以親姐姐那你要你們的法務處的處長幹什麼\n\n09:12.386 --> 09:27.561\n你可不可以先回答这个问题而且我可以一边让你来回答这是你们的法规在这个地方而且呢很多地方还有接乎你们的爆料里面你们还常常用你们的自筹款自筹款也是公款你们往下一个你们自筹款里面还可以来做一个\n\n09:27.981 --> 09:49.869\n我研究員今年年底才會從美國回來幫他先添購了1400萬也是讓這個你們願聘的顧問來專門使用而且呢這麼貴的這個這個儀器當中呢光是做訓練一般人不敢碰觸這都是你們在在使用然後告訴我只要有人一邊說這就叫你們自籌款你們那麼多自籌款你們有沒有違反公務人員的認定你們號稱都是叫自籌款\n\n09:52.290 --> 10:11.825\n自籌款也是公款自籌款可以這樣去用嗎而且呢據說你們還要在這個給你們這個生物中心4年3億元永遠你告訴我會有更多的剩餘款然後每次把它當作自籌款自籌款是這樣使用的嗎院長這個東西你要不要調查清楚只有你們這個生物中心是這樣子嗎還是其他中心也會有\n\n10:12.881 --> 10:37.562\n你要么就有两种选择一个就是修改你们的法规第二个就是就是让你们没有修改法规状况下你就好好的去测查还有在下面一个在这个过程当中呢你们在实行这个这个兔的安乐死的过程因为药剂不足你让这只兔子然后呢疼痛的到处乱撞然后呢最后然后实际伤害录下来把它当心得报告\n\n10:38.735 --> 10:54.790\n院长如果这件事情让你的TripleAlex知道的话你觉得会不会影响到你们未来在整个地方对动物实验上面的一个部分这都是你所想下面所有里面所发生的所有的问题院长请你一并回应\n\n10:56.031 --> 11:23.498\n是报告委员第一个部分就有关聘任资深顾问的部分那特别因为这个资深的顾问呢他的专场是在3R那这是现在整个生物科技领域里面非常重要你可以你聘在院然后你为了躲避原则因为你不能有配偶不能有执行系统在同一个中心所以你就在院里面去聘但是他实际的工作地方是在同一个中心是这样子吗跟委员报告其实3R的计划其实每个月是我在负责主持的是院部在负责主持\n\n11:23.558 --> 11:43.434\n你要不要去看看這個主任直系的這個配偶的主任辦公室在這個生物中心所做的每一件事情主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子然後說是要自儲款院長你調查清楚而且不是只有這個中心調查清楚你旗下的七個中心有沒有調查清楚因為這是屬於這個部分\n\n11:44.094 --> 12:12.937\n所以主委這件事情也請你為務必督促我需要有一個非常清楚的檢查報告我要嗎你就是修你看敢不敢修改你們的法令你不修改法令的話就把你們七個下面的這個中心全部清楚有沒有盡情繁衍的問題有沒有拿著怨顧問的這個問題然後再做完全不是這樣的部分有沒有出國的爆炸有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款我要一併要很清楚的調查報告這已經不是一個中心所提出來主委你可以做得到嗎我請國務院想進\n\n12:13.598 --> 12:42.635\n包括我刚刚说的这样子的一个实验的部分当初有这个漏针有漏液的这个问题让我们的生物是这样子的方法来产生这些都是主委这些虽然不是你主辖但这些的管理的原则可以反映出我们在培养这些人才培养这个法规制度里面的一个制度层面这个每个部分我们都要够严谨你才要来告诉我们这个中心是值得大家被信赖的你同意吧同意谢谢委员\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.1,"end":8.587,"text":"我們是請主委請主委"},{"start":11.991,"end":37.792,"text":"科委委员好主委好你讲到人才的培养我看前面两个委员又让你火气出来其实主委你还是可以有一个比较用你自己自身的经验来回应这个问题在我们那个年代我们到美国去念书我们都有拿到奖学金我们到拿到奖学金的时候美国也没有要求我们要不要留下来对不对我们只要是那个环境可以然后我们如果有合法的一个签证我们就会有自我的一个选择"},{"start":38.272,"end":55.006,"text":"没错嘛而且所有的人才进进出出一个国家能够花费这么多钱他也没有跟你签任何的终身约他们是见过那个部分所以也不应该去argue到底是薪资好美国薪资很好美国的税也很高美国还有文化种族还有种种的一些的问题"},{"start":55.066,"end":55.867,"text":"这个我同意"},{"start":74.488,"end":99.824,"text":"完全嘛所以说你就把你自身经验你当初已经有很多美国公司也想recruit你啊可是你最后还是决定回到台湾也有你的坚持嘛所以人才的互通我想在这全世界都是一样的你用这个角度的利基点不用去辩论到底是如何你知道耗费太多时间这点你同意吗好不好但我还是要来问一下人才的问题啊因为最主要是Trump他实在太unpredictable他的这些对于这个所谓的"},{"start":100.504,"end":113.662,"text":"美国其实是最重视人才融入的地方它因为移民的政策还有包括签证的问题的确让很多世界很多国家就很想把这些人才弄出去所以你可以看到中国启动了K签证的计划欧盟1600亿"},{"start":115.804,"end":141.537,"text":"然后日本又是7亿然后韩国也退出了新加坡很多人想去他就完全取消了这个working permit这样的要求台湾我们目前来说我刚刚特别提到的有没有提供一个好的环境那才是留住人才最重要的那在这个布局当中请问国科会在1600亿的这样子的预算当中你到底有哪些因应的策略相对于其他国家"},{"start":144.798,"end":159.475,"text":"台湾要吸引人才进来从国外进来的话当然还有很多的配套措施要做但是在科技研发的部分我们当然现在是积极以我们办的其实我觉得我们台湾其实你最需要是我们的team"},{"start":159.855,"end":177.505,"text":"还有很多年轻的科技人才要进来我随便举个例子来说他愿意进住进来孩子的因素搞不好取得很好啊如果我的小孩能够在这个地方有个完整的环境等等之类的那你看我就忍不住要提到了我们很多的这个实验高中特别在我们的陆组的实验高中现在招生不足哎"},{"start":177.745,"end":206.71,"text":"新族是每个人都抢得进去我们陆族没有人要进去那你就去思考一下为什么会是这样遭多遭不满因为呢他刚要进驻的时候呢他用我们的一个幼昌国中根本就不是一个for这一群高级人才要进来的你当你没有办法配套没有让孩子有一个好的部分里面他其实会降低很多的诱因我只是提醒这个主委很多因素不是只有一个薪资旁边的配套你把它处理好那是我们的角色我们的责任"},{"start":207.17,"end":229.137,"text":"好不好我只是提供这个部分给你我们跟高雄市政府是你这个部分你看连招生部我们也觉得你这边是要让人家要来因为是第一年建设还在建设还要做所以你要加速加快这才好了我的时间还剩下来我们就回去来看我们的数据提到人才我们也花了一些钱但是你看你的核定的部分"},{"start":229.597,"end":230.017,"text":"哪些國家"},{"start":256.277,"end":281.473,"text":"哪里印度印度印度他本身的科技就很强了他来我们这个地方但是你做这些东西你没有后续里面他们都有多少人实习完毕之后对台湾因为我们钱花出去我刚刚虽然讲人才交流但是你还是要让他们对台湾还是有留下一些他后续的绩效你目前为止我说实在我没有看到任何的报告好像现在才要开始来做执行还有呢我再看看"},{"start":282.173,"end":298.741,"text":"你要去追踪还有包括你看你目前来说一日补助了28413补助了560个到底有多少人会留下来就读或是就业目前为止我也没有看到你们给我任何的详细的这就是钱花出去我没有看到绩效啊对不对"},{"start":299.762,"end":327.824,"text":"主委我会让你有机会讲然后我们再看看同样是你看延揽客座科技人才这几十年来你的人才的人数很明显下降的趋势所以表示刚刚前面两位委员不是没有道理的他们是担心我们的人才培养好到国外去人家不回来但是我担心的是我们给那么多人请他留下来人家也不想留包括你的下降趋势所以我们台湾的确在诱因的部分里面是差其他国家差很多这是我们要面对的现实"},{"start":328.615,"end":350.088,"text":"我們其實不是說有一直下降啦大約維持這個數字但是很多我們其實有增加人來但是他們進到業界的會比較多我要有數字我還要有數據因為這個部分裡面我們也是交流我不想違反我前面所講的交流當中你的績效在哪裡我們目前沒有看到可是數字裡面顯然是一個下降而且"},{"start":351.129,"end":378.991,"text":"报告委员就是我们有努力在调查但是台湾是一个自由民主国家我们问他他不见得会讲他到哪个地方工作那你就要克服就像我们调查我们毕业生的就业部分我们要克服但是我们可以从老委会那边投保的老保的部分来做你有很多方法来你是国科会你一定有方法我只是提出来我需要看到一些的绩效而且我还这边让我想到的你刚刚望美林委员讲的我本来事实真的是觉得很"},{"start":379.671,"end":405.921,"text":"那個主委你真的是從科技從科技來真的講話我們還是距離這個政治遠一點今年並沒有減少200億明年1600億減少200億比你預估的1800億少但還是史上最高的國科會的預算雖然我知道你有很多事情要做但是你的重點是要跟你的行政院長去要為什麼創造史上最高力國防預算沒有減"},{"start":406.661,"end":435.148,"text":"我們的國科會解所以目前不是在裁劃法是你行政院沒給你這麼多錢你要冤有頭債有主你現在把裁劃法弄出來更講出來難道科技不上普發一萬嗎主委這不是你應該說的話好不好我們要就實來去講你這樣會讓很多的委員會跳腳不是裁劃法的問題是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊所以才給你撿200億要把它澄清清楚"},{"start":437.018,"end":450.676,"text":"其實我指的是說今年年初其實上個會期委員也在問說今年沒有是明年會有影響那明年你的預算還是史上最多所以呢但不是問題不在才化法"},{"start":451.357,"end":475.162,"text":"主委 問題不在才化法是行政院的Priority沒有把你放在跟國防跟其他一樣多我只是幫助你把事情釐清所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中不要製造國會會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔好不好這樣啦 跟你說一聲啦來 接下來還是講了這麼多的錢我們還是要問到一個非常你們的管理的問題郭延淵院長有沒有在蔡院長在這裡"},{"start":478.158,"end":482.408,"text":"來 這部長 所長這都要知道一下你們國研院是不是有對於離職作業辦法有這個所謂的迴避原則 應該有吧"},{"start":486.561,"end":508.257,"text":"有的 謝謝有的嘛 對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘親姐姐為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有"},{"start":509.455,"end":522.019,"text":"報告委員因為願聘的這個顧問因為國務院底下有七個中心那實際上在技術專業上有必要的時候會跟中心一起互動那你有中心互動那你中心互動裡面長期進駐到你們這個中心會不會自達連你們這個回覆原則"},{"start":527.901,"end":550.389,"text":"你雖然你的聘騎士你的聘任是在你們院的聘顧問這個人卻長期在這個中心進駐然後呢跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心這是閃避法規啊這完全就是你們自己在這個地方的落實性有沒有有沒有落實先告訴我你如果可以聘親姐姐委有幾職顧問是直系親屬可以親姐姐那你要你們的法務處的處長幹什麼"},{"start":552.386,"end":567.561,"text":"你可不可以先回答这个问题而且我可以一边让你来回答这是你们的法规在这个地方而且呢很多地方还有接乎你们的爆料里面你们还常常用你们的自筹款自筹款也是公款你们往下一个你们自筹款里面还可以来做一个"},{"start":567.981,"end":589.869,"text":"我研究員今年年底才會從美國回來幫他先添購了1400萬也是讓這個你們願聘的顧問來專門使用而且呢這麼貴的這個這個儀器當中呢光是做訓練一般人不敢碰觸這都是你們在在使用然後告訴我只要有人一邊說這就叫你們自籌款你們那麼多自籌款你們有沒有違反公務人員的認定你們號稱都是叫自籌款"},{"start":592.29,"end":611.825,"text":"自籌款也是公款 自籌款可以這樣去用嗎而且呢據說你們還要在這個給你們這個生物中心4年3億元永遠你告訴我會有更多的剩餘款然後每次把它當作自籌款自籌款是這樣使用的嗎 院長這個東西你要不要調查清楚只有你們這個生物中心是這樣子嗎還是其他中心也會有"},{"start":612.881,"end":637.562,"text":"你要么就有两种选择一个就是修改你们的法规第二个就是就是让你们没有修改法规状况下你就好好的去测查还有在下面一个在这个过程当中呢你们在实行这个这个兔的安乐死的过程因为药剂不足你让这只兔子然后呢疼痛的到处乱撞然后呢最后然后实际伤害录下来把它当心得报告"},{"start":638.735,"end":654.79,"text":"院长如果这件事情让你的Triple Alex知道的话你觉得会不会影响到你们未来在整个地方对动物实验上面的一个部分这都是你所想下面所有里面所发生的所有的问题院长请你一并回应"},{"start":656.031,"end":683.498,"text":"是 报告委员第一个部分就有关聘任资深顾问的部分那特别因为这个资深的顾问呢他的专场是在3R那这是现在整个生物科技领域里面非常重要你可以你聘在院然后你为了躲避原则因为你不能有配偶不能有执行系统在同一个中心所以你就在院里面去聘但是他实际的工作地方是在同一个中心是这样子吗跟委员报告其实3R的计划其实每个月是我在负责主持的是院部在负责主持"},{"start":683.558,"end":703.434,"text":"你要不要去看看這個主任直系的這個配偶的主任辦公室在這個生物中心所做的每一件事情主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子然後說是要自儲款院長你調查清楚而且不是只有這個中心調查清楚你旗下的七個中心有沒有調查清楚因為這是屬於這個部分"},{"start":704.094,"end":732.937,"text":"所以主委這件事情也請你為務必督促我需要有一個非常清楚的檢查報告我要嗎 你就是修 你看敢不敢修改你們的法令你不修改法令的話就把你們七個下面的這個中心全部清楚有沒有盡情繁衍的問題有沒有拿著怨顧問的這個問題然後再做完全不是這樣的部分有沒有出國的爆炸有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款我要一併要很清楚的調查報告這已經不是一個中心所提出來主委你可以做得到嗎我請國務院想進"},{"start":733.598,"end":762.635,"text":"包括我刚刚说的这样子的一个实验的部分当初有这个漏针有漏液的这个问题让我们的生物是这样子的方法来产生这些都是主委这些虽然不是你主辖但这些的管理的原则可以反映出我们在培养这些人才培养这个法规制度里面的一个制度层面这个每个部分我们都要够严谨你才要来告诉我们这个中心是值得大家被信赖的你同意吧同意谢谢委员"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":267,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時41分）我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。你講到人才的培養，我看前面兩個委員又讓你火氣出來，其實主委你還是可以用你自身的經驗來回應這個問題。在我們那個年代到美國去念書，我們都有拿到獎學金，拿到獎學金的時候，美國也沒有要求我們要不要留下來，對不對？我們只要是環境可以，然後如果有合法的簽證，就會有自我的一個選擇，沒錯嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：而且所有的人才進進出出，一個國家能夠花費這麼多錢，他也沒有跟你簽任何的終身約，他們是建構那個部分，所以不應該去argue到底是不是薪資好。美國薪資很好，但是美國的稅也很高，美國還有文化、種族及種種一些問題，不是薪資好，他就會願意留在那個地方。而且當我們在培養很多外國人到我們這邊來，我們也是希望能夠有臺灣的經驗，至於他是不是要回到自己原來的國家，那也不是我們可以掌控的，我想這是一個人才互通，特別是在高階人才裡面，大家共同的語言，沒錯吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這個我同意。"],["柯委員志恩：完全嘛，所以你就把你自身經驗說出來，當初一定有很多美國公司也想recruit你啊，可是你最後還是決定回到臺灣，你也有你的堅持嘛。所以人才的互通，全世界都是一樣的，你用這個角度的立基點，不用去辯論到底是如何，你這樣耗費太多時間，這一點你同意嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我還是要來問一下人才的問題，因為最主要是Trump實在太unpredictable，他這些對於所謂的……美國其實是最重視人才熔爐的地方，他因為移民的政策，還有包括簽證的問題，的確讓世界很多國家很想把這些人才弄出去，所以你可以看到中國啟動的K簽證計畫，歐盟1,600億，然後日本又是7億，韓國也推出了計畫，新加坡很多人想去，就完全取消了Work Permit的要求。","臺灣目前來說，我剛剛特別提到的，有沒有提供一個好的環境？這才是留住人才最重要的，在這個布局當中，請問國科會1,600億的預算到底有哪些因應的策略，相對於其他國家？"],["吳主任委員誠文：臺灣要吸引人才從國外進來的話，當然還有很多配套措施要做，但是在科技研發的部分，我們現在當然是積極以我們半導體……"],["柯委員志恩：其實我覺得我們臺灣……其實你最需要是我們的team，還有很多年輕的科技人才要進來，我隨便舉個例子來說，他願意進駐進來，搞不好是孩子的因素，如果他的小孩能夠在這個地方有完整的環境等等之類。你看我就忍不住要提到了，我們很多的實驗高中，特別是在路竹的實驗高中，現在招生不足，新竹是每個都搶著進去，而路竹沒有人要進去，那你就去思考為什麼會是這樣，招都招不滿？因為他剛要進駐的時候，學校是右昌國中，根本就不是for這一群要進來的高級人才，當你沒有辦法配套、沒有讓孩子有一個好的部分，其實就會降低很多的誘因。主委，我只是提醒，有很多因素，不是只有薪資，旁邊的配套把它處理好，那是我們的角色、我們的責任，好不好？我只是提供這個部分給你參考。"],["吳主任委員誠文：了解，我們跟高雄市政府……"],["柯委員志恩：是，你看連招生都招不滿，我們也覺得這樣人家怎麼會來，孩子最重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為是第1年，建設還在進行當中。"],["柯委員志恩：對，建設還在做，所以你要加速加快，這才好啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會加速。"],["柯委員志恩：我們回頭來看數據，提到人才，我們也花了一些錢，但是你看你核定的112年、113年，就核定的層面當中，到底有沒有做一些所謂的後續追蹤？113年、114年各補助6,000萬，實習生每天1,000元，最多補助90天，然後最高是9萬，這些外籍人才大概是從哪些國家進來的最多？"],["吳主任委員誠文：哪些國家？"],["柯委員志恩：對啊。"],["龔副處長繼康：跟委員報告一下，主要是印度。"],["柯委員志恩：哪裡？"],["龔副處長繼康：印度。"],["柯委員志恩：印度，印度本身的科技就很強了，他來我們這個地方，但是你做這些東西沒有後續，他們到底多少人在實習完畢之後……對臺灣來說，因為我們錢花出去了，我剛剛雖然講人才交流，但是你還是要讓他們對臺灣有留下後續的績效，目前為止，說實在我沒有看到任何的報告，好像現在才要開始來做執行。還有你要去追蹤，包括目前來說112年補助的284人、113年補助的568人，到底有多少人會留下來就讀或是就業？目前為止，我也沒有看到你們給我任何詳細的資料，這就是錢花出去，但我沒有看到績效啊，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我……"],["柯委員志恩：主委，我會讓你有機會講。然後我們再看看，同樣是延攬客座科技人才，這幾十年來人才的人數有很明顯下降的趨勢，所以表示剛剛前面兩位委員問的不是沒有道理的，他們是擔心我們的人才培養好到國外去不回來，但是我擔心的是我們補助那麼多人，請他留下來，人家也不想留，包括你的下降趨勢，所以我們臺灣的確在誘因的部分差其他國家差很多，這是我們要面對的現實。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實不是一直下降啦，是大約維持這個數字，我們其實有增加人來，但是他們進到業界的會比較多，臺灣……"],["柯委員志恩：我要有數字、數據，我不想違反我前面所講的。交流當中你的績效在哪裡？我們目前沒有看到，可是數字顯然是下降，而且……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們有努力在調查，但是臺灣是一個自由民主國家，我們問他，他不見得會講他到哪個地方工作……"],["柯委員志恩：那你就要克服，就像我們調查畢業生的就業部分，我們要克服，我們可以從勞動部那邊投保勞保的部分來做。你有很多方法，你是國科會，你一定有方法，我只是提出來我需要看到一些績效。","而且這邊讓我想到剛剛萬美玲委員講的，主委，你是從科技領域來的，講話還是距離政治遠一點，今年並沒有減少200億，明年1,600億減少200億，比你預估的1,800億少，但還是史上最高的國科會預算，雖然我知道你有很多事情要做，但重點是你要跟你的行政院長去要，為什麼創造史上最高例？國防預算沒有減，但國科會減，所以問題不是在於財劃法，是你們行政院沒有給你那麼多錢，你要冤有頭債有主，你現在把財劃法弄出來，更講出難道科技比不上普發1萬嗎？主委，這不是你應該說的話，好嗎？我們要如實來講，你這樣會讓很多的委員跳腳，不是財劃法的問題，是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊，所以才給你減200億，要把它澄清清楚！"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實我指的是說今年年初，其實上個會期委員也在問說我們……"],["柯委員志恩：今年沒有，是明年會有影響，那明年你的預算還是史上最多，但問題不在財劃法，主委，問題不在財劃法，是行政院的priority沒有把你放在跟國防、跟其他的一樣多，我只是幫助你把事情釐清，所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中，不要製造國科會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔，好不好？跟你說一聲。","接下來，講到這麼多的錢，我們還是要問到你們的管理問題，國研院院長有沒有在？"],["吳主任委員誠文：蔡院長在這裡。"],["柯委員志恩：來，首長都要知道一下，你們國研院是不是對於離職作業辦法有所謂的迴避原則，應該有吧？"],["蔡院長宏營：有的，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：有的嘛，那我就請問，你們下面有一個生物中心，過去不是這個名字，中心主任聘親姊姊為有給職的法律諮詢顧問，還有中心主任的配偶在你們院聘當中是當顧問，可是長期在中心裡面，所有的事情都在你們中心，請問這樣有沒有違反作業原則，有沒有？"],["蔡院長宏營：報告委員，關於院聘的顧問，國研院底下有7個中心，實際上在技術專業有必要的時候，會跟中心一起互動。"],["柯委員志恩：有中心互動，那中心互動是長期進駐到你們中心，會不會自打臉你們的迴避原則？雖然他的聘任是你們院聘顧問，這個人卻長期進駐在這個中心，然後跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心，這是閃避法規啊！你們在這個地方有沒有落實？先告訴我，你如果可以聘直系親屬、親姊姊為有給職顧問，那要你們的法務處處長幹什麼？你先回答這個問題，而且我可以一併讓你來回答，這是你的法規。","我接獲很多你們的爆料，你們還常常用自籌款，自籌款也是公款，你們還可以因為某研究員今年年底才會從美國回來，用自籌款先幫他添購1,400萬的儀器，讓你們院聘的顧問專門使用，而且這麼貴的儀器一般人不敢碰觸，都是你們在使用，然後只要有人批評，你們就說這是你們的自籌款，你們有那麼多自籌款，有沒有違反公務人員任用法的規定？你們都號稱是自籌款，自籌款也是公款，自籌款可以這樣用嗎？而且據說你們還要給你們這個生物中心4年3億元，永遠都會有更多的剩餘款，你們每次都把它當作自籌款，自籌款是這樣使用的嗎？院長，這個東西你要不要調查清楚？只有你們這個生物中心是這樣嗎？還是其他中心也會有？你只有兩種選擇，一個就是修改你們的法規，第二個就是在沒有修改法規的狀況之下，你好好的徹查。","還有你們在實行兔子安樂死的過程中，因為藥劑不足，讓兔子疼痛得到處亂撞，最後實習生還錄下來，把它當心得報告，院長，如果這件事情讓AAALAC知道的話，你覺得會不會影響到你們未來動物實驗的進行？這都是你所轄之下發生的問題，院長，請你一併回應。"],["蔡院長宏營：是，報告委員，第一、有關聘任資深顧問的部分，特別因為這個資深顧問的專長是在3R，這是現在整個生物科技領域裡面非常重要的……"],["柯委員志恩：你可以，你從院裡去聘，你為了躲避原則，因為不能有配偶、不能有直系親屬在同一個中心，所以你就從院裡面去聘，可是他實際的工作地方在同一個中心，是這樣子嗎？"],["蔡院長宏營：跟委員報告，其實3R的計畫每個月是我在負責主持的，是院部在負責主持的。"],["柯委員志恩：你要不要去看看這個主任？有配偶在同一中心的主任，辦公室在生物中心，他所做的每一件事情、主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子，然後說是用自籌款。院長，你調查清楚。"],["蔡院長宏營：好。"],["柯委員志恩：而且不是只有把這個中心調查清楚，你旗下的7個中心都要調查清楚。主委，這件事情也請你務必督促，我需要有一個非常清楚的調查報告，要嘛你就修法，看你敢不敢修改你的法令，你不修改法令的話，就把你們下面的7個中心全部調查清楚，看有沒有近親繁衍的問題、有沒有打著院顧問的旗號在做完全不是的工作、有沒有出國報帳、有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款？我要一份很清楚的調查報告，這已經不是一個中心的問題了，主委，你可以做得到嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我請國研院詳細調查。"],["柯委員志恩：包括我剛剛說的AAALAC的實驗，當初有漏針、漏液的問題，讓生物這樣慘死，這些雖然不是主委主轄，但這些管理原則可以反映出我們在培養人才的法規制度層面，這每個部分我們都要夠嚴謹，你才有辦法告訴我們這個中心是值得大家信賴的，你同意吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意，謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳）：謝謝柯志恩委員質詢，主委請回座。","接下來劉書彬召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}}