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00:01:17,198\n其實國安會一直有徐司檢現在是諮詢委員司檢副秘書長常連在對於APEC來協調我們跨部會當然外交部還有包括經濟部都是其中很重要其實過去尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好所以我們可以捍衛我意思是說你們兩位要一起去因為過去好像也沒有這樣子\n\n5\n00:01:18,688 --> 00:01:29,754\n我們所謂雙部長會議我們過去以來外交部長都是由看那一年的主題部長當然沒有問題我現在是說包括國安會的秘書長也一起去因為大家對你們兩位是比較關乎的國安會秘書長並沒有去我也沒有去我們會再坐鎮台灣這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎\n\n6\n00:01:42,086 --> 00:01:54,454\n我們都沒有要去我們就在台灣作證兩個都是一樣那剛剛也有委員提到就是說像川習會兩個人會在APEC可能他們會討論到台灣的這樣的議題\n\n7\n00:02:00,157 --> 00:02:04,400\n那我們有什麼應對的準備因為剛剛我覺得我們好像太過樂觀認為川普總統他是被動的去提及可是川普總統他是非常聰明的人而且他是主導性非常強的他從來不會是被動的他都是主動的所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的一個方向那如果說在這一次他們有提到這樣的議題我們會怎麼應對\n\n8\n00:02:30,518 --> 00:02:46,071\n我們跟美方都有很好的管道都有持續溝通那因為這個APEC有它的主題那假設有川習會因為這個都是現在還在發展中沒到最後真的所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答不過\n\n9\n00:02:46,371 --> 00:02:50,493\n這不是假設性的回答因為這個攸關我們台灣本身非常大尤其美中兩國對我們影響最大我們時時的在對美國付出那麼多尤其現在關稅的問題我們提出非常非常多的而且犧牲非常多\n\n10\n00:03:03,237 --> 00:03:16,226\n中國大陸也是我們也是一個關注的一個重要的對象這兩個如果他們提到台灣問題的時候我們沒有假設你必須要去預判因為這樣對我們的影響會是什麼這個部分要怎麼會有什麼樣的應對的模式確實我們都有跟著不同的發展的可能的所謂劇本或想定去做一些預判比如什麼\n\n11\n00:03:30,407 --> 00:03:35,269\n比如說他有沒有見面見面談了些什麼那我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通因為照川普的風格因為他是個談判大師他也很enjoy談判所以這個時候在這個過程可是我們也了解美中的問題要談的也很多台灣現在不是重點那可是是不是習近平會主動去提什麼\n\n12\n00:03:54,237 --> 00:04:04,902\n那當然川普他也講說他主動上沒有要去談習近平的重點可能會是台灣那如果他沒有川普如果沒有主動談尤其去主動談的時候我們要怎麼應對我問的是這個有沒有什麼具體的一個做法當美國\n\n13\n00:04:13,625 --> 00:04:19,667\n各種的可能的想定現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演的內容嗎比如什麼讓我們先知道一下我想有些象徵性有些是實質性的啦當然你說象徵性涉及到是不是什麼跟一中有關可是實質性涉及到軍購這些議題那這個時候這個因為\n\n14\n00:04:38,030 --> 00:04:50,072\n互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼我們只要把它對照起來在美中之間就有可能比如說現在川普很關心當然除了這個關稅問題就是芬太尼還有其他稀土部長那個都不是跟台灣直接關稅我們現在擔心的是我們面對美國的關稅的問題因為從頭到尾我們看到我們不斷的付出我們不斷的被犧牲我們從剛開始只有台積電過去到現在整個產業聯通要過去\n\n15\n00:05:06,275 --> 00:05:10,137\n包括今天來的農業部我們在農業的採購上面我們無條件的放寬我們對美的投資還有我們對於國防的這樣的一個支出其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷的在放大不斷不斷的在付出可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果那美中如果在APEC如果他們碰到\n\n16\n00:05:30,726 --> 00:05:45,863\n在那裡有討論到台灣的時候其實甚至我們有可能很多的地方會被犧牲的更多因為最重要的是我們就是壓單邊現在我們一直說美國對我們很好事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下\n\n17\n00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:48,981\n我想台美關係是互惠的我們有互惠嗎當然有台灣的安全經濟還有我們在國際組織的財力台灣的安全美國沒有絕對的承諾他沒有說要幫台灣出兵我們現在看到的是我們在關稅因為我們看到剛剛你們有提到韓國你們有提到其他的國家我們看韓國好了\n\n18\n00:06:09,675 --> 00:06:13,897\n韓國在這一次APEC是在韓國舉行他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了我想要請教一下如果以剛開始他們設定美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP的3.8%對日本要求要達到3.5%對我們也是要求甚至高達5%可是我們3.32%我們明年已經高達3.32%\n\n19\n00:06:36,187 --> 00:06:38,790\n總統是說到2030年才要到達5%可是我們現在看起來不是我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了我想請教部長就你所知韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎\n\n20\n00:06:55,367 --> 00:07:01,089\n因為這次所謂的關稅談判他是框一個大的數字比如說5500億或3500億因為他有讓美國有比較大的主導權韓國跟日本還包括馬來西亞包括其他東西的國家都沒有他們現在甚至都被放寬甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟原來所以我們今天為什麼不斷的會提到這個部分尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來\n\n21\n00:07:24,161 --> 00:07:29,202\n我想要請教的是剛剛已經提到了顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案你們說有沙盤推演可是到現在提不出一個其中的一個如果我們看到他們在舉行這個APEC他們有兩雙方有碰面的時候我們再隨時因應那時候再請教因為現在你們回答不出來可是我們要特別請教的是\n\n22\n00:07:51,004 --> 00:07:56,877\n我們在過去在跟大陸談\n\n23\n00:07:59,488 --> 00:08:20,362\n那時候都說是黑箱那現在用這麼機密的方式因為所有的國家都跟國都跟國人或者跟他們的相關的民意代表就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告可是我們用很高的這個機敏的這個態度來面對因為不斷不斷的變你覺得哪一種我們的損失比較多\n\n24\n00:08:27,715 --> 00:08:41,444\n其實我們台灣有自己的國家利益要捍衛自己的國家安全台灣的國家利益是什麼當然維持我們的主權還有我們的安全還有我們的發展我們不斷的犧牲跟付出我們有主權嗎我們現在看到的我先簡單農業部一起上來好不好好農業部\n\n25\n00:08:59,957 --> 00:09:09,864\n我想請教一下因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行對不對那農業部請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法嗎有沒有你必須定期查核的有多少人\n\n26\n00:09:17,301 --> 00:09:40,601\n因為你們有參與啊是包括詳細的人數我不知道但是有非常多的人哪些人包括我們除了相關的長官以外另外就是像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關的同仁他們都有被核定嗎是核定基民是怎麼處理當然就是依照相關的規定來管制什麼叫相關的規定\n\n27\n00:09:41,963 --> 00:10:05,748\n因為你有參與嘛對你本身有嗎有有我本身也有做什麼樣的約束比如說我們要出國的話就要報准報准是然後呢如果在國外有任何這個接觸相關的這個人員的話回來也要通報我們被核判的機密等級就您的立場來看你被核定的等級是什麼是密機密還是極機密\n\n28\n00:10:09,232 --> 00:10:28,383\n這個我就不先進因為我就是被管制的人員你有參與嘛可是你因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件可是你自己到底被框的是哪一種密件的等級你自己都不知道\n\n29\n00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:55,260\n我們在上一次要求的時候行政院第一個回答是說副院長室人員參與談判皆有經過安全查核對不對您有嗎我本身也有經過安全查核怎麼樣的安全查核據我的瞭解細部我真的不知道但是我知道是送到調查局去查核有送過去其他農業部還有什麼人\n\n30\n00:10:57,633 --> 00:11:08,444\n這個其實也不是只有農業部啦就每個單位在負責國企跟兩岸我問的是農業部因為你只能代表農業部嘛其他單位他們有自己的那個我想請教一下農業部有多少人或者舉一個職位好了還有誰比如說我剛剛跟委員報告我們辦國際事務的像國際事務的司長\n\n31\n00:11:16,994 --> 00:11:38,366\n他們全部都有會後把資料提供給我們好不好因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核你們經過的是安全查核只有一般的查核可是因為在立法院保持非常高的機密性因為從來沒有洩露過任何一個訊息\n\n32\n00:11:42,228 --> 00:11:55,393\n那第二個回答是說另一國家機密保護法於出境前應經核准之人均有依照該法規申請出境這些表示可能是只有副院長楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該批准之人\n\n33\n00:12:02,475 --> 00:12:13,298\n副院長辦公室的那些機要人員比如說像江姓或李姓的這樣的人員其實他們都大剌剌的出現在鏡頭面前他們也都出去了可是他們都沒有被列入陰莖核准之人明顯違反國家緊密保護法第26條這個部分我想部長也在這裡\n\n34\n00:12:27,322 --> 00:12:35,905\n今天如果要提供給我們資料你可以這麼隨便的時候今天那個行政院的那個經貿辦其實有來嘛副院長在過去其實他是他是反覆冒黑箱非常大力的喔今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候是另一個樣子\n\n35\n00:12:55,407 --> 00:12:57,951\n而且美國寫的劇本我們是按照它在演美國不斷地在變我們不斷地在付出這個真的用一句話來形容叫請君入甕\n\n36\n00:13:07,697 --> 00:13:30,347\n曾立軍曾副院長因為他在服貿的時候他曾經大力的說這是黑箱可是現在面對在服貿的時候反而我們付出的相對很少我們賣出很多我們獲利我們得到的利多也很多那時候我們被說成是黑箱可是你今天我們看到國防支出不斷的上升我們在明年公開預算有9400億9400\n\n37\n00:13:34,969 --> 00:13:37,130\n9450億然後你還有特別的預算已經1000多億甚至還有人在美國放話說我們還要再編一兆多這樣子的國防支出這是安全嗎這是在掏空台灣\n\n38\n00:13:50,546 --> 00:13:52,809\n這個部分我們不斷不斷的付出可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人我們在付出這麼多剛剛我們提到了包括農業包括我們其他的投資包括我們整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候我們到底可以得到什麼到現在關稅的結果還不知道\n\n39\n00:14:06,846 --> 00:14:10,010\n韓國已經要討論細節了馬來西亞也討論細節了很多東協國家他們都已經知道而且他們是減少的我們到現在不斷增加這不是黑箱什麼叫黑箱你們當你們要做這樣的行為的時候你們告訴我們說這是一個非常機敏的案子可是誰被管制了\n\n40\n00:14:27,847 --> 00:14:41,811\n我們問起來其實大家都沒有被管制只有立法院只有我們台灣所有的人民在被框在什麼都不需要知道都不應該知道都不必知道的一個情況之下這是我們今天特別要說的因為時間的關係\n\n41\n00:14:43,772 --> 00:15:01,126\n部長我們希望外交部把你的經驗給其他的單位行政院也是怎麼樣用機密的一個文件可以提供我們詢問或者我們要的資料農委會跟那個行政院我們上一次有說相關的人員包括你機要人員你是做什麼樣的查核什麼樣的等級應該提供給我們已經拖很久了所以我們在這裡慎重的要求\n\n42\n00:15:11,934 --> 00:15:30,198\n在三天之內希望把那個過程提供用密件也沒關係提供給我們如果不懂的話問外交部好不好我們會把經驗分享然後沒有我們三天之內就要那個查核的那個那個人員跟他們查核的一個方式農委會跟行政院\n\n43\n00:15:34,388 --> 00:15:40,530\n警報辦有沒有問題如果是符合這個相關規定我們一定會遭因為你們都已經做了嘛你們都已經出去談回來了你們告訴我們所有的委員說你們都不用知道因為這是機敏的你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議所以我們都不用知道也不應該知道也不可以知道你們完全沒有報告任何的內容我們一而再再而三所有的大家在關切的全體國人在關切我們都沒有人提出來\n\n44\n00:16:03,644 --> 00:16:30,457\n報告委員就是說那個有關於那個談判代表的部分我們是有關於是仿到各國的慣例都是有各國都是只有公部主壇的以及部長及以上的官員可是你對國因為他們沒有列機密啊你今天在我們國內列機密比如說像我們開機密會議的時候不是只有立法委員還是只有官員列出來在場的其實全部都有還包括我們的立法院的議事人員\n\n45\n00:16:31,337 --> 00:16:58,938\n所以這些人其實都會列在那個機密的範圍裡面今天如果你有代表我們所有國人或者不是主談的對象可是你有參與那也算所以請提供相關的一些文書資料密件就用密件一定要提供好不好我們會再依照相關規定來處理什麼叫依照相關規定依照相關規定就是你如果是密件立法院要求的你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們啊\n\n46\n00:17:00,708 --> 00:17:01,790\n這樣有問題嗎有兩位機要人員我已經說了你們在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現很多人都看到了那他們去參與的時候到底用什麼樣子的一個身份也請提供謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1615\t2900\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長\n11667\t14850\t部長早部長我想今天我們討論也有提到APEC這個部分那因為在很多朝野委員或者很多其實大家都非常關注的就是一直有這樣的傳言說部長跟吳釗燮秘書長你們不合的這樣的傳聞\n37228\t50241\t那這一次其實外管處也都非常的關心那這一次一起要去參加IPEC這個部分部長你有什麼要力推的事情嗎或者是要破除不合的傳言\n52628\t77198\t其實國安會一直有徐司檢 現在是諮詢委員 司檢副秘書長常連在對於APEC 來協調我們跨部會當然外交部還有包括經濟部都是其中很重要其實過去 尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好 所以我們可以捍衛我意思是說你們兩位要一起去因為過去好像也沒有這樣子\n78688\t89754\t我們所謂雙部長會議我們過去以來外交部長都是由看那一年的主題部長當然沒有問題我現在是說包括國安會的秘書長也一起去因為大家對你們兩位是比較關乎的國安會秘書長並沒有去我也沒有去我們會再坐鎮台灣這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎\n102086\t114454\t我們都沒有要去我們就在台灣作證兩個都是一樣那剛剛也有委員提到就是說像川習會兩個人會在APEC可能他們會討論到台灣的這樣的議題\n120157\t124400\t那我們有什麼應對的準備因為剛剛我覺得我們好像太過樂觀認為川普總統他是被動的去提及可是川普總統他是非常聰明的人而且他是主導性非常強的他從來不會是被動的他都是主動的所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的一個方向那如果說在這一次他們有提到這樣的議題我們會怎麼應對\n150518\t166071\t我們跟美方都有很好的管道都有持續溝通那因為這個APEC有它的主題那假設有川習會因為這個都是現在還在發展中沒到最後真的所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答不過\n166371\t170493\t這不是假設性的回答因為這個攸關我們台灣本身非常大尤其美中兩國對我們影響最大我們時時的在對美國付出那麼多尤其現在關稅的問題我們提出非常非常多的而且犧牲非常多\n183237\t196226\t中國大陸也是我們也是一個關注的一個重要的對象這兩個如果他們提到台灣問題的時候我們沒有假設你必須要去預判因為這樣對我們的影響會是什麼這個部分要怎麼會有什麼樣的應對的模式確實我們都有跟著不同的發展的可能的所謂劇本或想定去做一些預判比如什麼\n210407\t215269\t比如說他有沒有見面見面談了些什麼那我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通因為照川普的風格因為他是個談判大師他也很enjoy談判所以這個時候在這個過程可是我們也了解美中的問題要談的也很多台灣現在不是重點那可是是不是習近平會主動去提什麼\n234237\t244902\t那當然川普他也講說他主動上沒有要去談習近平的重點可能會是台灣那如果他沒有川普如果沒有主動談尤其去主動談的時候我們要怎麼應對我問的是這個有沒有什麼具體的一個做法當美國\n253625\t259667\t各種的可能的想定現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演的內容嗎比如什麼讓我們先知道一下我想有些象徵性有些是實質性的啦當然你說象徵性涉及到是不是什麼跟一中有關可是實質性涉及到軍購這些議題那這個時候這個因為\n278030\t290072\t互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼我們只要把它對照起來在美中之間就有可能比如說現在川普很關心當然除了這個關稅問題就是芬太尼還有其他稀土部長那個都不是跟台灣直接關稅我們現在擔心的是我們面對美國的關稅的問題因為從頭到尾我們看到我們不斷的付出我們不斷的被犧牲我們從剛開始只有台積電過去到現在整個產業聯通要過去\n306275\t310137\t包括今天來的農業部我們在農業的採購上面我們無條件的放寬我們對美的投資還有我們對於國防的這樣的一個支出其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷的在放大不斷不斷的在付出可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果那美中如果在APEC如果他們碰到\n330726\t345863\t在那裡有討論到台灣的時候其實甚至我們有可能很多的地方會被犧牲的更多因為最重要的是我們就是壓單邊現在我們一直說美國對我們很好事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下\n346840\t348981\t我想台美關係是互惠的我們有互惠嗎當然有 台灣的安全 經濟還有我們在國際組織的財力台灣的安全美國沒有絕對的承諾他沒有說要幫台灣出兵我們現在看到的是我們在關稅因為我們看到剛剛你們有提到韓國你們有提到其他的國家我們看韓國好了\n369675\t373897\t韓國在這一次APEC是在韓國舉行他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了我想要請教一下如果以剛開始他們設定美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP的3.8%對日本要求要達到3.5%對我們也是要求甚至高達5%可是我們3.32%我們明年已經高達3.32%\n396187\t398790\t總統是說到2030年才要到達5%可是我們現在看起來不是我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了我想請教部長就你所知韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎\n415367\t421089\t因為這次所謂的關稅談判他是框一個大的數字比如說5500億或3500億因為他有讓美國有比較大的主導權韓國跟日本還包括馬來西亞包括其他東西的國家都沒有他們現在甚至都被放寬甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟原來所以我們今天為什麼不斷的會提到這個部分尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來\n444161\t449202\t我想要請教的是剛剛已經提到了顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案你們說有沙盤推演可是到現在提不出一個 其中的一個如果我們看到他們在舉行這個APEC他們有兩雙方有碰面的時候我們再隨時因應那時候再請教因為現在你們回答不出來可是我們要特別請教的是\n471004\t476877\t我們在過去在跟大陸談\n479488\t500362\t那時候都說是黑箱那現在用這麼機密的方式因為所有的國家都跟國都跟國人或者跟他們的相關的民意代表就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告可是我們用很高的這個機敏的這個態度來面對因為不斷不斷的變你覺得哪一種我們的損失比較多\n507715\t521444\t其實我們台灣有自己的國家利益要捍衛自己的國家安全台灣的國家利益是什麼當然維持我們的主權還有我們的安全還有我們的發展我們不斷的犧牲跟付出我們有主權嗎我們現在看到的我先簡單 農業部一起上來好不好好 農業部\n539957\t549864\t我想請教一下因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行對不對那農業部請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法嗎有沒有你必須定期查核的有多少人\n557301\t580601\t因為你們有參與啊是 包括詳細的人數我不知道但是有非常多的人哪些人包括我們除了相關的長官以外另外就是像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關的同仁他們都有被核定嗎是核定基民是怎麼處理當然就是依照相關的規定來管制什麼叫相關的規定\n581963\t605748\t因為你有參與嘛對你本身有嗎有有我本身也有做什麼樣的約束比如說我們要出國的話就要報准報准是然後呢如果在國外有任何這個接觸相關的這個人員的話回來也要通報我們被核判的機密等級就您的立場來看你被核定的等級是什麼是密機密還是極機密\n609232\t628383\t這個我就不先進 因為我就是被管制的人員你有參與嘛 可是你因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件可是你自己到底被框的是哪一種密件的等級你自己都不知道\n630919\t655260\t我們在上一次要求的時候 行政院第一個回答是說副院長室人員參與談判 皆有經過安全查核對不對 您有嗎我本身也有經過安全查核怎麼樣的安全查核據我的瞭解 細部我真的不知道 但是我知道是送到調查局去查核有送過去 其他農業部還有什麼人\n657633\t668444\t這個其實也不是只有農業部啦就每個單位在負責國企跟兩岸我問的是農業部因為你只能代表農業部嘛其他單位他們有自己的那個我想請教一下農業部有多少人或者舉一個職位好了還有誰比如說我剛剛跟委員報告我們辦國際事務的像國際事務的司長\n676994\t698366\t他們全部都有 會後把資料提供給我們好不好因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核你們經過的是安全查核 只有一般的查核可是因為在立法院保持非常高的機密性因為從來沒有洩露過任何一個訊息\n702228\t715393\t那第二個回答是說另一國家機密保護法於出境前應經核准之人均有依照該法規申請出境這些表示可能是只有副院長楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該批准之人\n722475\t733298\t副院長辦公室的那些機要人員比如說像江姓或李姓的這樣的人員其實他們都大剌剌的出現在鏡頭面前他們也都出去了可是他們都沒有被列入陰莖核准之人明顯違反國家緊密保護法第26條這個部分我想部長也在這裡\n747322\t755905\t今天如果要提供給我們資料你可以這麼隨便的時候今天那個行政院的那個經貿辦其實有來嘛副院長在過去其實他是他是反覆冒黑箱非常大力的喔今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候是另一個樣子\n775407\t777951\t而且美國寫的劇本我們是按照它在演美國不斷地在變我們不斷地在付出這個真的用一句話來形容叫請君入甕\n787697\t810347\t曾立軍曾副院長因為他在服貿的時候他曾經大力的說這是黑箱可是現在面對在服貿的時候反而我們付出的相對很少我們賣出很多我們獲利我們得到的利多也很多那時候我們被說成是黑箱可是你今天我們看到國防支出不斷的上升我們在明年公開預算有9400億9400\n814969\t817130\t9450億然後你還有特別的預算已經1000多億甚至還有人在美國放話說我們還要再編一兆多這樣子的國防支出這是安全嗎這是在掏空台灣\n830546\t832809\t這個部分我們不斷不斷的付出可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人我們在付出這麼多剛剛我們提到了包括農業包括我們其他的投資包括我們整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候我們到底可以得到什麼到現在關稅的結果還不知道\n846846\t850010\t韓國已經要討論細節了馬來西亞也討論細節了很多東協國家他們都已經知道而且他們是減少的我們到現在不斷增加這不是黑箱什麼叫黑箱你們當你們要做這樣的行為的時候你們告訴我們說這是一個非常機敏的案子可是誰被管制了\n867847\t881811\t我們問起來其實大家都沒有被管制只有立法院只有我們台灣所有的人民在被框在什麼都不需要知道都不應該知道都不必知道的一個情況之下這是我們今天特別要說的因為時間的關係\n883772\t901126\t部長我們希望外交部把你的經驗給其他的單位行政院也是怎麼樣用機密的一個文件可以提供我們詢問或者我們要的資料農委會跟那個行政院我們上一次有說相關的人員包括你機要人員你是做什麼樣的查核什麼樣的等級應該提供給我們已經拖很久了所以我們在這裡慎重的要求\n911934\t930198\t在三天之內希望把那個過程提供用密件也沒關係提供給我們如果不懂的話問外交部好不好我們會把經驗分享然後沒有我們三天之內就要那個查核的那個那個人員跟他們查核的一個方式農委會跟行政院\n934388\t940530\t警報辦有沒有問題如果是符合這個相關規定我們一定會遭因為你們都已經做了嘛你們都已經出去談回來了你們告訴我們所有的委員說你們都不用知道因為這是機敏的你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議所以我們都不用知道也不應該知道也不可以知道你們完全沒有報告任何的內容我們一而再再而三所有的大家在關切的全體國人在關切我們都沒有人提出來\n963644\t990457\t報告委員就是說那個有關於那個談判代表的部分我們是有關於是仿到各國的慣例都是有各國都是只有公部主壇的以及部長及以上的官員可是你對國因為他們沒有列機密啊你今天在我們國內列機密比如說像我們開機密會議的時候不是只有立法委員還是只有官員列出來在場的其實全部都有還包括我們的立法院的議事人員\n991337\t1018938\t所以這些人其實都會列在那個機密的範圍裡面今天如果你有代表我們所有國人或者不是主談的對象可是你有參與那也算所以請提供相關的一些文書資料密件就用密件一定要提供好不好我們會再依照相關規定來處理什麼叫依照相關規定依照相關規定就是你如果是密件立法院要求的你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們啊\n1020708\t1021790\t這樣有問題嗎有兩位機要人員我已經說了你們在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現很多人都看到了那他們去參與的時候到底用什麼樣子的一個身份也請提供謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長\n部長早部長我想今天我們討論也有提到APEC這個部分那因為在很多朝野委員或者很多其實大家都非常關注的就是一直有這樣的傳言說部長跟吳釗燮秘書長你們不合的這樣的傳聞\n那這一次其實外管處也都非常的關心那這一次一起要去參加IPEC這個部分部長你有什麼要力推的事情嗎或者是要破除不合的傳言\n其實國安會一直有徐司檢 現在是諮詢委員 司檢副秘書長常連在對於APEC 來協調我們跨部會當然外交部還有包括經濟部都是其中很重要其實過去 尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好 所以我們可以捍衛我意思是說你們兩位要一起去因為過去好像也沒有這樣子\n我們所謂雙部長會議我們過去以來外交部長都是由看那一年的主題部長當然沒有問題我現在是說包括國安會的秘書長也一起去因為大家對你們兩位是比較關乎的國安會秘書長並沒有去我也沒有去我們會再坐鎮台灣這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎\n我們都沒有要去我們就在台灣作證兩個都是一樣那剛剛也有委員提到就是說像川習會兩個人會在APEC可能他們會討論到台灣的這樣的議題\n那我們有什麼應對的準備因為剛剛我覺得我們好像太過樂觀認為川普總統他是被動的去提及可是川普總統他是非常聰明的人而且他是主導性非常強的他從來不會是被動的他都是主動的所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的一個方向那如果說在這一次他們有提到這樣的議題我們會怎麼應對\n我們跟美方都有很好的管道都有持續溝通那因為這個APEC有它的主題那假設有川習會因為這個都是現在還在發展中沒到最後真的所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答不過\n這不是假設性的回答因為這個攸關我們台灣本身非常大尤其美中兩國對我們影響最大我們時時的在對美國付出那麼多尤其現在關稅的問題我們提出非常非常多的而且犧牲非常多\n中國大陸也是我們也是一個關注的一個重要的對象這兩個如果他們提到台灣問題的時候我們沒有假設你必須要去預判因為這樣對我們的影響會是什麼這個部分要怎麼會有什麼樣的應對的模式確實我們都有跟著不同的發展的可能的所謂劇本或想定去做一些預判比如什麼\n比如說他有沒有見面見面談了些什麼那我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通因為照川普的風格因為他是個談判大師他也很enjoy談判所以這個時候在這個過程可是我們也了解美中的問題要談的也很多台灣現在不是重點那可是是不是習近平會主動去提什麼\n那當然川普他也講說他主動上沒有要去談習近平的重點可能會是台灣那如果他沒有川普如果沒有主動談尤其去主動談的時候我們要怎麼應對我問的是這個有沒有什麼具體的一個做法當美國\n各種的可能的想定現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演的內容嗎比如什麼讓我們先知道一下我想有些象徵性有些是實質性的啦當然你說象徵性涉及到是不是什麼跟一中有關可是實質性涉及到軍購這些議題那這個時候這個因為\n互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼我們只要把它對照起來在美中之間就有可能比如說現在川普很關心當然除了這個關稅問題就是芬太尼還有其他稀土部長那個都不是跟台灣直接關稅我們現在擔心的是我們面對美國的關稅的問題因為從頭到尾我們看到我們不斷的付出我們不斷的被犧牲我們從剛開始只有台積電過去到現在整個產業聯通要過去\n包括今天來的農業部我們在農業的採購上面我們無條件的放寬我們對美的投資還有我們對於國防的這樣的一個支出其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷的在放大不斷不斷的在付出可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果那美中如果在APEC如果他們碰到\n在那裡有討論到台灣的時候其實甚至我們有可能很多的地方會被犧牲的更多因為最重要的是我們就是壓單邊現在我們一直說美國對我們很好事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下\n我想台美關係是互惠的我們有互惠嗎當然有 台灣的安全 經濟還有我們在國際組織的財力台灣的安全美國沒有絕對的承諾他沒有說要幫台灣出兵我們現在看到的是我們在關稅因為我們看到剛剛你們有提到韓國你們有提到其他的國家我們看韓國好了\n韓國在這一次APEC是在韓國舉行他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了我想要請教一下如果以剛開始他們設定美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP的3.8%對日本要求要達到3.5%對我們也是要求甚至高達5%可是我們3.32%我們明年已經高達3.32%\n總統是說到2030年才要到達5%可是我們現在看起來不是我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了我想請教部長就你所知韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎\n因為這次所謂的關稅談判他是框一個大的數字比如說5500億或3500億因為他有讓美國有比較大的主導權韓國跟日本還包括馬來西亞包括其他東西的國家都沒有他們現在甚至都被放寬甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟原來所以我們今天為什麼不斷的會提到這個部分尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來\n我想要請教的是剛剛已經提到了顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案你們說有沙盤推演可是到現在提不出一個 其中的一個如果我們看到他們在舉行這個APEC他們有兩雙方有碰面的時候我們再隨時因應那時候再請教因為現在你們回答不出來可是我們要特別請教的是\n我們在過去在跟大陸談\n那時候都說是黑箱那現在用這麼機密的方式因為所有的國家都跟國都跟國人或者跟他們的相關的民意代表就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告可是我們用很高的這個機敏的這個態度來面對因為不斷不斷的變你覺得哪一種我們的損失比較多\n其實我們台灣有自己的國家利益要捍衛自己的國家安全台灣的國家利益是什麼當然維持我們的主權還有我們的安全還有我們的發展我們不斷的犧牲跟付出我們有主權嗎我們現在看到的我先簡單 農業部一起上來好不好好 農業部\n我想請教一下因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行對不對那農業部請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法嗎有沒有你必須定期查核的有多少人\n因為你們有參與啊是 包括詳細的人數我不知道但是有非常多的人哪些人包括我們除了相關的長官以外另外就是像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關的同仁他們都有被核定嗎是核定基民是怎麼處理當然就是依照相關的規定來管制什麼叫相關的規定\n因為你有參與嘛對你本身有嗎有有我本身也有做什麼樣的約束比如說我們要出國的話就要報准報准是然後呢如果在國外有任何這個接觸相關的這個人員的話回來也要通報我們被核判的機密等級就您的立場來看你被核定的等級是什麼是密機密還是極機密\n這個我就不先進 因為我就是被管制的人員你有參與嘛 可是你因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件可是你自己到底被框的是哪一種密件的等級你自己都不知道\n我們在上一次要求的時候 行政院第一個回答是說副院長室人員參與談判 皆有經過安全查核對不對 您有嗎我本身也有經過安全查核怎麼樣的安全查核據我的瞭解 細部我真的不知道 但是我知道是送到調查局去查核有送過去 其他農業部還有什麼人\n這個其實也不是只有農業部啦就每個單位在負責國企跟兩岸我問的是農業部因為你只能代表農業部嘛其他單位他們有自己的那個我想請教一下農業部有多少人或者舉一個職位好了還有誰比如說我剛剛跟委員報告我們辦國際事務的像國際事務的司長\n他們全部都有 會後把資料提供給我們好不好因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核你們經過的是安全查核 只有一般的查核可是因為在立法院保持非常高的機密性因為從來沒有洩露過任何一個訊息\n那第二個回答是說另一國家機密保護法於出境前應經核准之人均有依照該法規申請出境這些表示可能是只有副院長楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該批准之人\n副院長辦公室的那些機要人員比如說像江姓或李姓的這樣的人員其實他們都大剌剌的出現在鏡頭面前他們也都出去了可是他們都沒有被列入陰莖核准之人明顯違反國家緊密保護法第26條這個部分我想部長也在這裡\n今天如果要提供給我們資料你可以這麼隨便的時候今天那個行政院的那個經貿辦其實有來嘛副院長在過去其實他是他是反覆冒黑箱非常大力的喔今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候是另一個樣子\n而且美國寫的劇本我們是按照它在演美國不斷地在變我們不斷地在付出這個真的用一句話來形容叫請君入甕\n曾立軍曾副院長因為他在服貿的時候他曾經大力的說這是黑箱可是現在面對在服貿的時候反而我們付出的相對很少我們賣出很多我們獲利我們得到的利多也很多那時候我們被說成是黑箱可是你今天我們看到國防支出不斷的上升我們在明年公開預算有9400億9400\n9450億然後你還有特別的預算已經1000多億甚至還有人在美國放話說我們還要再編一兆多這樣子的國防支出這是安全嗎這是在掏空台灣\n這個部分我們不斷不斷的付出可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人我們在付出這麼多剛剛我們提到了包括農業包括我們其他的投資包括我們整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候我們到底可以得到什麼到現在關稅的結果還不知道\n韓國已經要討論細節了馬來西亞也討論細節了很多東協國家他們都已經知道而且他們是減少的我們到現在不斷增加這不是黑箱什麼叫黑箱你們當你們要做這樣的行為的時候你們告訴我們說這是一個非常機敏的案子可是誰被管制了\n我們問起來其實大家都沒有被管制只有立法院只有我們台灣所有的人民在被框在什麼都不需要知道都不應該知道都不必知道的一個情況之下這是我們今天特別要說的因為時間的關係\n部長我們希望外交部把你的經驗給其他的單位行政院也是怎麼樣用機密的一個文件可以提供我們詢問或者我們要的資料農委會跟那個行政院我們上一次有說相關的人員包括你機要人員你是做什麼樣的查核什麼樣的等級應該提供給我們已經拖很久了所以我們在這裡慎重的要求\n在三天之內希望把那個過程提供用密件也沒關係提供給我們如果不懂的話問外交部好不好我們會把經驗分享然後沒有我們三天之內就要那個查核的那個那個人員跟他們查核的一個方式農委會跟行政院\n警報辦有沒有問題如果是符合這個相關規定我們一定會遭因為你們都已經做了嘛你們都已經出去談回來了你們告訴我們所有的委員說你們都不用知道因為這是機敏的你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議所以我們都不用知道也不應該知道也不可以知道你們完全沒有報告任何的內容我們一而再再而三所有的大家在關切的全體國人在關切我們都沒有人提出來\n報告委員就是說那個有關於那個談判代表的部分我們是有關於是仿到各國的慣例都是有各國都是只有公部主壇的以及部長及以上的官員可是你對國因為他們沒有列機密啊你今天在我們國內列機密比如說像我們開機密會議的時候不是只有立法委員還是只有官員列出來在場的其實全部都有還包括我們的立法院的議事人員\n所以這些人其實都會列在那個機密的範圍裡面今天如果你有代表我們所有國人或者不是主談的對象可是你有參與那也算所以請提供相關的一些文書資料密件就用密件一定要提供好不好我們會再依照相關規定來處理什麼叫依照相關規定依照相關規定就是你如果是密件立法院要求的你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們啊\n這樣有問題嗎有兩位機要人員我已經說了你們在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現很多人都看到了那他們去參與的時候到底用什麼樣子的一個身份也請提供謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.615 --> 00:02.900\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長有請部長\n\n00:11.667 --> 00:14.850\n部長早部長我想今天我們討論也有提到APEC這個部分那因為在很多朝野委員或者很多其實大家都非常關注的就是一直有這樣的傳言說部長跟吳釗燮秘書長你們不合的這樣的傳聞\n\n00:37.228 --> 00:50.241\n那這一次其實外管處也都非常的關心那這一次一起要去參加IPEC這個部分部長你有什麼要力推的事情嗎或者是要破除不合的傳言\n\n00:52.628 --> 01:17.198\n其實國安會一直有徐司檢現在是諮詢委員司檢副秘書長常連在對於APEC來協調我們跨部會當然外交部還有包括經濟部都是其中很重要其實過去尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好所以我們可以捍衛我意思是說你們兩位要一起去因為過去好像也沒有這樣子\n\n01:18.688 --> 01:29.754\n我們所謂雙部長會議我們過去以來外交部長都是由看那一年的主題部長當然沒有問題我現在是說包括國安會的秘書長也一起去因為大家對你們兩位是比較關乎的國安會秘書長並沒有去我也沒有去我們會再坐鎮台灣這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎\n\n01:42.086 --> 01:54.454\n我們都沒有要去我們就在台灣作證兩個都是一樣那剛剛也有委員提到就是說像川習會兩個人會在APEC可能他們會討論到台灣的這樣的議題\n\n02:00.157 --> 02:04.400\n那我們有什麼應對的準備因為剛剛我覺得我們好像太過樂觀認為川普總統他是被動的去提及可是川普總統他是非常聰明的人而且他是主導性非常強的他從來不會是被動的他都是主動的所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的一個方向那如果說在這一次他們有提到這樣的議題我們會怎麼應對\n\n02:30.518 --> 02:46.071\n我們跟美方都有很好的管道都有持續溝通那因為這個APEC有它的主題那假設有川習會因為這個都是現在還在發展中沒到最後真的所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答不過\n\n02:46.371 --> 02:50.493\n這不是假設性的回答因為這個攸關我們台灣本身非常大尤其美中兩國對我們影響最大我們時時的在對美國付出那麼多尤其現在關稅的問題我們提出非常非常多的而且犧牲非常多\n\n03:03.237 --> 03:16.226\n中國大陸也是我們也是一個關注的一個重要的對象這兩個如果他們提到台灣問題的時候我們沒有假設你必須要去預判因為這樣對我們的影響會是什麼這個部分要怎麼會有什麼樣的應對的模式確實我們都有跟著不同的發展的可能的所謂劇本或想定去做一些預判比如什麼\n\n03:30.407 --> 03:35.269\n比如說他有沒有見面見面談了些什麼那我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通因為照川普的風格因為他是個談判大師他也很enjoy談判所以這個時候在這個過程可是我們也了解美中的問題要談的也很多台灣現在不是重點那可是是不是習近平會主動去提什麼\n\n03:54.237 --> 04:04.902\n那當然川普他也講說他主動上沒有要去談習近平的重點可能會是台灣那如果他沒有川普如果沒有主動談尤其去主動談的時候我們要怎麼應對我問的是這個有沒有什麼具體的一個做法當美國\n\n04:13.625 --> 04:19.667\n各種的可能的想定現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演的內容嗎比如什麼讓我們先知道一下我想有些象徵性有些是實質性的啦當然你說象徵性涉及到是不是什麼跟一中有關可是實質性涉及到軍購這些議題那這個時候這個因為\n\n04:38.030 --> 04:50.072\n互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼我們只要把它對照起來在美中之間就有可能比如說現在川普很關心當然除了這個關稅問題就是芬太尼還有其他稀土部長那個都不是跟台灣直接關稅我們現在擔心的是我們面對美國的關稅的問題因為從頭到尾我們看到我們不斷的付出我們不斷的被犧牲我們從剛開始只有台積電過去到現在整個產業聯通要過去\n\n05:06.275 --> 05:10.137\n包括今天來的農業部我們在農業的採購上面我們無條件的放寬我們對美的投資還有我們對於國防的這樣的一個支出其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷的在放大不斷不斷的在付出可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果那美中如果在APEC如果他們碰到\n\n05:30.726 --> 05:45.863\n在那裡有討論到台灣的時候其實甚至我們有可能很多的地方會被犧牲的更多因為最重要的是我們就是壓單邊現在我們一直說美國對我們很好事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下\n\n05:46.840 --> 05:48.981\n我想台美關係是互惠的我們有互惠嗎當然有台灣的安全經濟還有我們在國際組織的財力台灣的安全美國沒有絕對的承諾他沒有說要幫台灣出兵我們現在看到的是我們在關稅因為我們看到剛剛你們有提到韓國你們有提到其他的國家我們看韓國好了\n\n06:09.675 --> 06:13.897\n韓國在這一次APEC是在韓國舉行他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了我想要請教一下如果以剛開始他們設定美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP的3.8%對日本要求要達到3.5%對我們也是要求甚至高達5%可是我們3.32%我們明年已經高達3.32%\n\n06:36.187 --> 06:38.790\n總統是說到2030年才要到達5%可是我們現在看起來不是我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了我想請教部長就你所知韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎\n\n06:55.367 --> 07:01.089\n因為這次所謂的關稅談判他是框一個大的數字比如說5500億或3500億因為他有讓美國有比較大的主導權韓國跟日本還包括馬來西亞包括其他東西的國家都沒有他們現在甚至都被放寬甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟原來所以我們今天為什麼不斷的會提到這個部分尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來\n\n07:24.161 --> 07:29.202\n我想要請教的是剛剛已經提到了顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案你們說有沙盤推演可是到現在提不出一個其中的一個如果我們看到他們在舉行這個APEC他們有兩雙方有碰面的時候我們再隨時因應那時候再請教因為現在你們回答不出來可是我們要特別請教的是\n\n07:51.004 --> 07:56.877\n我們在過去在跟大陸談\n\n07:59.488 --> 08:20.362\n那時候都說是黑箱那現在用這麼機密的方式因為所有的國家都跟國都跟國人或者跟他們的相關的民意代表就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告可是我們用很高的這個機敏的這個態度來面對因為不斷不斷的變你覺得哪一種我們的損失比較多\n\n08:27.715 --> 08:41.444\n其實我們台灣有自己的國家利益要捍衛自己的國家安全台灣的國家利益是什麼當然維持我們的主權還有我們的安全還有我們的發展我們不斷的犧牲跟付出我們有主權嗎我們現在看到的我先簡單農業部一起上來好不好好農業部\n\n08:59.957 --> 09:09.864\n我想請教一下因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行對不對那農業部請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法嗎有沒有你必須定期查核的有多少人\n\n09:17.301 --> 09:40.601\n因為你們有參與啊是包括詳細的人數我不知道但是有非常多的人哪些人包括我們除了相關的長官以外另外就是像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關的同仁他們都有被核定嗎是核定基民是怎麼處理當然就是依照相關的規定來管制什麼叫相關的規定\n\n09:41.963 --> 10:05.748\n因為你有參與嘛對你本身有嗎有有我本身也有做什麼樣的約束比如說我們要出國的話就要報准報准是然後呢如果在國外有任何這個接觸相關的這個人員的話回來也要通報我們被核判的機密等級就您的立場來看你被核定的等級是什麼是密機密還是極機密\n\n10:09.232 --> 10:28.383\n這個我就不先進因為我就是被管制的人員你有參與嘛可是你因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件可是你自己到底被框的是哪一種密件的等級你自己都不知道\n\n10:30.919 --> 10:55.260\n我們在上一次要求的時候行政院第一個回答是說副院長室人員參與談判皆有經過安全查核對不對您有嗎我本身也有經過安全查核怎麼樣的安全查核據我的瞭解細部我真的不知道但是我知道是送到調查局去查核有送過去其他農業部還有什麼人\n\n10:57.633 --> 11:08.444\n這個其實也不是只有農業部啦就每個單位在負責國企跟兩岸我問的是農業部因為你只能代表農業部嘛其他單位他們有自己的那個我想請教一下農業部有多少人或者舉一個職位好了還有誰比如說我剛剛跟委員報告我們辦國際事務的像國際事務的司長\n\n11:16.994 --> 11:38.366\n他們全部都有會後把資料提供給我們好不好因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核你們經過的是安全查核只有一般的查核可是因為在立法院保持非常高的機密性因為從來沒有洩露過任何一個訊息\n\n11:42.228 --> 11:55.393\n那第二個回答是說另一國家機密保護法於出境前應經核准之人均有依照該法規申請出境這些表示可能是只有副院長楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該批准之人\n\n12:02.475 --> 12:13.298\n副院長辦公室的那些機要人員比如說像江姓或李姓的這樣的人員其實他們都大剌剌的出現在鏡頭面前他們也都出去了可是他們都沒有被列入陰莖核准之人明顯違反國家緊密保護法第26條這個部分我想部長也在這裡\n\n12:27.322 --> 12:35.905\n今天如果要提供給我們資料你可以這麼隨便的時候今天那個行政院的那個經貿辦其實有來嘛副院長在過去其實他是他是反覆冒黑箱非常大力的喔今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候是另一個樣子\n\n12:55.407 --> 12:57.951\n而且美國寫的劇本我們是按照它在演美國不斷地在變我們不斷地在付出這個真的用一句話來形容叫請君入甕\n\n13:07.697 --> 13:30.347\n曾立軍曾副院長因為他在服貿的時候他曾經大力的說這是黑箱可是現在面對在服貿的時候反而我們付出的相對很少我們賣出很多我們獲利我們得到的利多也很多那時候我們被說成是黑箱可是你今天我們看到國防支出不斷的上升我們在明年公開預算有9400億9400\n\n13:34.969 --> 13:37.130\n9450億然後你還有特別的預算已經1000多億甚至還有人在美國放話說我們還要再編一兆多這樣子的國防支出這是安全嗎這是在掏空台灣\n\n13:50.546 --> 13:52.809\n這個部分我們不斷不斷的付出可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人我們在付出這麼多剛剛我們提到了包括農業包括我們其他的投資包括我們整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候我們到底可以得到什麼到現在關稅的結果還不知道\n\n14:06.846 --> 14:10.010\n韓國已經要討論細節了馬來西亞也討論細節了很多東協國家他們都已經知道而且他們是減少的我們到現在不斷增加這不是黑箱什麼叫黑箱你們當你們要做這樣的行為的時候你們告訴我們說這是一個非常機敏的案子可是誰被管制了\n\n14:27.847 --> 14:41.811\n我們問起來其實大家都沒有被管制只有立法院只有我們台灣所有的人民在被框在什麼都不需要知道都不應該知道都不必知道的一個情況之下這是我們今天特別要說的因為時間的關係\n\n14:43.772 --> 15:01.126\n部長我們希望外交部把你的經驗給其他的單位行政院也是怎麼樣用機密的一個文件可以提供我們詢問或者我們要的資料農委會跟那個行政院我們上一次有說相關的人員包括你機要人員你是做什麼樣的查核什麼樣的等級應該提供給我們已經拖很久了所以我們在這裡慎重的要求\n\n15:11.934 --> 15:30.198\n在三天之內希望把那個過程提供用密件也沒關係提供給我們如果不懂的話問外交部好不好我們會把經驗分享然後沒有我們三天之內就要那個查核的那個那個人員跟他們查核的一個方式農委會跟行政院\n\n15:34.388 --> 15:40.530\n警報辦有沒有問題如果是符合這個相關規定我們一定會遭因為你們都已經做了嘛你們都已經出去談回來了你們告訴我們所有的委員說你們都不用知道因為這是機敏的你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議所以我們都不用知道也不應該知道也不可以知道你們完全沒有報告任何的內容我們一而再再而三所有的大家在關切的全體國人在關切我們都沒有人提出來\n\n16:03.644 --> 16:30.457\n報告委員就是說那個有關於那個談判代表的部分我們是有關於是仿到各國的慣例都是有各國都是只有公部主壇的以及部長及以上的官員可是你對國因為他們沒有列機密啊你今天在我們國內列機密比如說像我們開機密會議的時候不是只有立法委員還是只有官員列出來在場的其實全部都有還包括我們的立法院的議事人員\n\n16:31.337 --> 16:58.938\n所以這些人其實都會列在那個機密的範圍裡面今天如果你有代表我們所有國人或者不是主談的對象可是你有參與那也算所以請提供相關的一些文書資料密件就用密件一定要提供好不好我們會再依照相關規定來處理什麼叫依照相關規定依照相關規定就是你如果是密件立法院要求的你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們啊\n\n17:00.708 --> 17:01.790\n這樣有問題嗎有兩位機要人員我已經說了你們在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現很多人都看到了那他們去參與的時候到底用什麼樣子的一個身份也請提供謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.615,"end":2.9,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長"},{"start":11.667,"end":14.85,"text":"部長早部長我想今天我們討論也有提到APEC這個部分那因為在很多朝野委員或者很多其實大家都非常關注的就是一直有這樣的傳言說部長跟吳釗燮秘書長你們不合的這樣的傳聞"},{"start":37.228,"end":50.241,"text":"那這一次其實外管處也都非常的關心那這一次一起要去參加IPEC這個部分部長你有什麼要力推的事情嗎或者是要破除不合的傳言"},{"start":52.628,"end":77.198,"text":"其實國安會一直有徐司檢 現在是諮詢委員 司檢副秘書長常連在對於APEC 來協調我們跨部會當然外交部還有包括經濟部都是其中很重要其實過去 尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好 所以我們可以捍衛我意思是說你們兩位要一起去因為過去好像也沒有這樣子"},{"start":78.688,"end":89.754,"text":"我們所謂雙部長會議我們過去以來外交部長都是由看那一年的主題部長當然沒有問題我現在是說包括國安會的秘書長也一起去因為大家對你們兩位是比較關乎的國安會秘書長並沒有去我也沒有去我們會再坐鎮台灣這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎"},{"start":102.086,"end":114.454,"text":"我們都沒有要去我們就在台灣作證兩個都是一樣那剛剛也有委員提到就是說像川習會兩個人會在APEC可能他們會討論到台灣的這樣的議題"},{"start":120.157,"end":124.4,"text":"那我們有什麼應對的準備因為剛剛我覺得我們好像太過樂觀認為川普總統他是被動的去提及可是川普總統他是非常聰明的人而且他是主導性非常強的他從來不會是被動的他都是主動的所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的一個方向那如果說在這一次他們有提到這樣的議題我們會怎麼應對"},{"start":150.518,"end":166.071,"text":"我們跟美方都有很好的管道都有持續溝通那因為這個APEC有它的主題那假設有川習會因為這個都是現在還在發展中沒到最後真的所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答不過"},{"start":166.371,"end":170.493,"text":"這不是假設性的回答因為這個攸關我們台灣本身非常大尤其美中兩國對我們影響最大我們時時的在對美國付出那麼多尤其現在關稅的問題我們提出非常非常多的而且犧牲非常多"},{"start":183.237,"end":196.226,"text":"中國大陸也是我們也是一個關注的一個重要的對象這兩個如果他們提到台灣問題的時候我們沒有假設你必須要去預判因為這樣對我們的影響會是什麼這個部分要怎麼會有什麼樣的應對的模式確實我們都有跟著不同的發展的可能的所謂劇本或想定去做一些預判比如什麼"},{"start":210.407,"end":215.269,"text":"比如說他有沒有見面見面談了些什麼那我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通因為照川普的風格因為他是個談判大師他也很enjoy談判所以這個時候在這個過程可是我們也了解美中的問題要談的也很多台灣現在不是重點那可是是不是習近平會主動去提什麼"},{"start":234.237,"end":244.902,"text":"那當然川普他也講說他主動上沒有要去談習近平的重點可能會是台灣那如果他沒有川普如果沒有主動談尤其去主動談的時候我們要怎麼應對我問的是這個有沒有什麼具體的一個做法當美國"},{"start":253.625,"end":259.667,"text":"各種的可能的想定現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演的內容嗎比如什麼讓我們先知道一下我想有些象徵性有些是實質性的啦當然你說象徵性涉及到是不是什麼跟一中有關可是實質性涉及到軍購這些議題那這個時候這個因為"},{"start":278.03,"end":290.072,"text":"互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼我們只要把它對照起來在美中之間就有可能比如說現在川普很關心當然除了這個關稅問題就是芬太尼還有其他稀土部長那個都不是跟台灣直接關稅我們現在擔心的是我們面對美國的關稅的問題因為從頭到尾我們看到我們不斷的付出我們不斷的被犧牲我們從剛開始只有台積電過去到現在整個產業聯通要過去"},{"start":306.275,"end":310.137,"text":"包括今天來的農業部我們在農業的採購上面我們無條件的放寬我們對美的投資還有我們對於國防的這樣的一個支出其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷的在放大不斷不斷的在付出可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果那美中如果在APEC如果他們碰到"},{"start":330.726,"end":345.863,"text":"在那裡有討論到台灣的時候其實甚至我們有可能很多的地方會被犧牲的更多因為最重要的是我們就是壓單邊現在我們一直說美國對我們很好事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下"},{"start":346.84,"end":348.981,"text":"我想台美關係是互惠的我們有互惠嗎當然有 台灣的安全 經濟還有我們在國際組織的財力台灣的安全美國沒有絕對的承諾他沒有說要幫台灣出兵我們現在看到的是我們在關稅因為我們看到剛剛你們有提到韓國你們有提到其他的國家我們看韓國好了"},{"start":369.675,"end":373.897,"text":"韓國在這一次APEC是在韓國舉行他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了我想要請教一下如果以剛開始他們設定美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP的3.8%對日本要求要達到3.5%對我們也是要求甚至高達5%可是我們3.32%我們明年已經高達3.32%"},{"start":396.187,"end":398.79,"text":"總統是說到2030年才要到達5%可是我們現在看起來不是我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了我想請教部長就你所知韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎"},{"start":415.367,"end":421.089,"text":"因為這次所謂的關稅談判他是框一個大的數字比如說5500億或3500億因為他有讓美國有比較大的主導權韓國跟日本還包括馬來西亞包括其他東西的國家都沒有他們現在甚至都被放寬甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟原來所以我們今天為什麼不斷的會提到這個部分尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來"},{"start":444.161,"end":449.202,"text":"我想要請教的是剛剛已經提到了顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案你們說有沙盤推演可是到現在提不出一個 其中的一個如果我們看到他們在舉行這個APEC他們有兩雙方有碰面的時候我們再隨時因應那時候再請教因為現在你們回答不出來可是我們要特別請教的是"},{"start":471.004,"end":476.877,"text":"我們在過去在跟大陸談"},{"start":479.488,"end":500.362,"text":"那時候都說是黑箱那現在用這麼機密的方式因為所有的國家都跟國都跟國人或者跟他們的相關的民意代表就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告可是我們用很高的這個機敏的這個態度來面對因為不斷不斷的變你覺得哪一種我們的損失比較多"},{"start":507.715,"end":521.444,"text":"其實我們台灣有自己的國家利益要捍衛自己的國家安全台灣的國家利益是什麼當然維持我們的主權還有我們的安全還有我們的發展我們不斷的犧牲跟付出我們有主權嗎我們現在看到的我先簡單 農業部一起上來好不好好 農業部"},{"start":539.957,"end":549.864,"text":"我想請教一下因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行對不對那農業部請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法嗎有沒有你必須定期查核的有多少人"},{"start":557.301,"end":580.601,"text":"因為你們有參與啊是 包括詳細的人數我不知道但是有非常多的人哪些人包括我們除了相關的長官以外另外就是像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關的同仁他們都有被核定嗎是核定基民是怎麼處理當然就是依照相關的規定來管制什麼叫相關的規定"},{"start":581.963,"end":605.748,"text":"因為你有參與嘛對你本身有嗎有有我本身也有做什麼樣的約束比如說我們要出國的話就要報准報准是然後呢如果在國外有任何這個接觸相關的這個人員的話回來也要通報我們被核判的機密等級就您的立場來看你被核定的等級是什麼是密機密還是極機密"},{"start":609.232,"end":628.383,"text":"這個我就不先進 因為我就是被管制的人員你有參與嘛 可是你因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件可是你自己到底被框的是哪一種密件的等級你自己都不知道"},{"start":630.919,"end":655.26,"text":"我們在上一次要求的時候 行政院第一個回答是說副院長室人員參與談判 皆有經過安全查核對不對 您有嗎我本身也有經過安全查核怎麼樣的安全查核據我的瞭解 細部我真的不知道 但是我知道是送到調查局去查核有送過去 其他農業部還有什麼人"},{"start":657.633,"end":668.444,"text":"這個其實也不是只有農業部啦就每個單位在負責國企跟兩岸我問的是農業部因為你只能代表農業部嘛其他單位他們有自己的那個我想請教一下農業部有多少人或者舉一個職位好了還有誰比如說我剛剛跟委員報告我們辦國際事務的像國際事務的司長"},{"start":676.994,"end":698.366,"text":"他們全部都有 會後把資料提供給我們好不好因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核你們經過的是安全查核 只有一般的查核可是因為在立法院保持非常高的機密性因為從來沒有洩露過任何一個訊息"},{"start":702.228,"end":715.393,"text":"那第二個回答是說另一國家機密保護法於出境前應經核准之人均有依照該法規申請出境這些表示可能是只有副院長楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該批准之人"},{"start":722.475,"end":733.298,"text":"副院長辦公室的那些機要人員比如說像江姓或李姓的這樣的人員其實他們都大剌剌的出現在鏡頭面前他們也都出去了可是他們都沒有被列入陰莖核准之人明顯違反國家緊密保護法第26條這個部分我想部長也在這裡"},{"start":747.322,"end":755.905,"text":"今天如果要提供給我們資料你可以這麼隨便的時候今天那個行政院的那個經貿辦其實有來嘛副院長在過去其實他是他是反覆冒黑箱非常大力的喔今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候是另一個樣子"},{"start":775.407,"end":777.951,"text":"而且美國寫的劇本我們是按照它在演美國不斷地在變我們不斷地在付出這個真的用一句話來形容叫請君入甕"},{"start":787.697,"end":810.347,"text":"曾立軍曾副院長因為他在服貿的時候他曾經大力的說這是黑箱可是現在面對在服貿的時候反而我們付出的相對很少我們賣出很多我們獲利我們得到的利多也很多那時候我們被說成是黑箱可是你今天我們看到國防支出不斷的上升我們在明年公開預算有9400億9400"},{"start":814.969,"end":817.13,"text":"9450億然後你還有特別的預算已經1000多億甚至還有人在美國放話說我們還要再編一兆多這樣子的國防支出這是安全嗎這是在掏空台灣"},{"start":830.546,"end":832.809,"text":"這個部分我們不斷不斷的付出可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人我們在付出這麼多剛剛我們提到了包括農業包括我們其他的投資包括我們整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候我們到底可以得到什麼到現在關稅的結果還不知道"},{"start":846.846,"end":850.01,"text":"韓國已經要討論細節了馬來西亞也討論細節了很多東協國家他們都已經知道而且他們是減少的我們到現在不斷增加這不是黑箱什麼叫黑箱你們當你們要做這樣的行為的時候你們告訴我們說這是一個非常機敏的案子可是誰被管制了"},{"start":867.847,"end":881.811,"text":"我們問起來其實大家都沒有被管制只有立法院只有我們台灣所有的人民在被框在什麼都不需要知道都不應該知道都不必知道的一個情況之下這是我們今天特別要說的因為時間的關係"},{"start":883.772,"end":901.126,"text":"部長我們希望外交部把你的經驗給其他的單位行政院也是怎麼樣用機密的一個文件可以提供我們詢問或者我們要的資料農委會跟那個行政院我們上一次有說相關的人員包括你機要人員你是做什麼樣的查核什麼樣的等級應該提供給我們已經拖很久了所以我們在這裡慎重的要求"},{"start":911.934,"end":930.198,"text":"在三天之內希望把那個過程提供用密件也沒關係提供給我們如果不懂的話問外交部好不好我們會把經驗分享然後沒有我們三天之內就要那個查核的那個那個人員跟他們查核的一個方式農委會跟行政院"},{"start":934.388,"end":940.53,"text":"警報辦有沒有問題如果是符合這個相關規定我們一定會遭因為你們都已經做了嘛你們都已經出去談回來了你們告訴我們所有的委員說你們都不用知道因為這是機敏的你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議所以我們都不用知道也不應該知道也不可以知道你們完全沒有報告任何的內容我們一而再再而三所有的大家在關切的全體國人在關切我們都沒有人提出來"},{"start":963.644,"end":990.457,"text":"報告委員就是說那個有關於那個談判代表的部分我們是有關於是仿到各國的慣例都是有各國都是只有公部主壇的以及部長及以上的官員可是你對國因為他們沒有列機密啊你今天在我們國內列機密比如說像我們開機密會議的時候不是只有立法委員還是只有官員列出來在場的其實全部都有還包括我們的立法院的議事人員"},{"start":991.337,"end":1018.938,"text":"所以這些人其實都會列在那個機密的範圍裡面今天如果你有代表我們所有國人或者不是主談的對象可是你有參與那也算所以請提供相關的一些文書資料密件就用密件一定要提供好不好我們會再依照相關規定來處理什麼叫依照相關規定依照相關規定就是你如果是密件立法院要求的你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們啊"},{"start":1020.708,"end":1021.79,"text":"這樣有問題嗎有兩位機要人員我已經說了你們在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現很多人都看到了那他們去參與的時候到底用什麼樣子的一個身份也請提供謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":144,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：部長，今天我們的討論也有提到APEC這個部分，很多朝野委員以及大家都非常關注的就是，一直有傳言說部長跟吳釗燮秘書長不合，其實外館處也都非常地關心，那這一次要一起去參加APEC，部長，你有什麼要力推的事情嗎？或者要破除不合的傳言？"],["林部長佳龍：其實國安會一直有徐斯儉──現在是諮詢委員、之前是副秘書長，長年對於APEC協調跨部會，當然外交部、包括經濟部都是其中很重要的。尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好，所以我們可以捍衛……"],["馬委員文君：我的意思是說你們兩位要一起去，因為過去好像也沒有這樣子嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：所謂雙部長會議，我們過去以來，外交部部長都是看那一年的主題，會指定一位來代表，所以今年……"],["馬委員文君：部長當然沒有問題，我現在是說，包括國安會的秘書長也一起去，因為大家對你們兩位是比較關注的，尤其是現在。"],["林部長佳龍：國安會秘書長並沒有去，我也沒有去。"],["馬委員文君：那這一次……"],["林部長佳龍：我們會坐鎮台灣。"],["馬委員文君：這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們都沒有要去，我們在台灣坐鎮。"],["馬委員文君：兩個都是一樣？"],["林部長佳龍：嗯。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛也有委員提到，川習會的兩個人可能會在APEC討論到台灣議題，那我們有什麼應對準備？剛剛我覺得你們好像太過樂觀，認為川普總統是被動地去提及，可是川普總統是非常聰明的人，而且他是主導性非常強的，他從來不會是被動的，他都是主動的，所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的方向。如果這一次他們有提到這樣的議題，我們會怎麼應對？"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟美方都有很好的管道、都有持續溝通，而APEC有它的主題，假設有川習會，因為這個都是現在還在發展中，沒到最後真的……所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答，不過……"],["馬委員文君：這不是假設性的回答，因為這個攸關我們台灣本身，尤其美中兩國對我們的影響最大，我們時時對美國付出那麼多，尤其現在關稅的問題，我們提出非常、非常多而且犧牲非常多；中國大陸也是我們關注的一個重要對象。如果他們提到台灣問題的時候，我們沒有假設，你必須要去預判這對我們的影響會是什麼？這個部分會有什麼樣的應對模式？"],["林部長佳龍：對，確實我們都有針對不同發展的劇本或想定去做一些預判跟因應。"],["馬委員文君：比如什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：比如他們有沒有見面、見面談了些什麼，我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通，照川普的風格，因為他是個談判大師，他也很enjoy談判，所以這個時候在這個過程……可是我們也了解美中要談的問題也很多，台灣現在不是重點，可是習近平是不是會主動去提什麼？當然川普也講說他沒有主動要去談，但是……"],["馬委員文君：對。部長，習近平的重點可能會是台灣，川普如果沒有主動談，由習主動談的時候，我們要怎麼應對？我問的是這一個，有沒有什麼具體的作法？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們就是有沙盤推演各種可能的想定。"],["馬委員文君：現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演內容嗎？比如什麼讓我們先知道一下。"],["林部長佳龍：有些是象徵性、有些是實質性的，例如象徵性的涉及到跟一中有關，實質性涉及到軍購這些議題，這個時候對於互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼，我們只要把它對照起來，在美中之間就有可能……比如現在川普很關心的，除了關稅問題以外就是芬太尼還有稀土……"],["馬委員文君：部長，那個都不是跟台灣直接關切的，我們現在擔心的是，面對美國關稅的問題，從頭到尾看到我們不斷地付出、不斷地被犧牲，我們從剛開始只有台積電過去，到現在整個產業鏈通通要過去；包括今天來的農業部，我們在農業採購上面無條件地放寬；我們對美的投資、還有我們對於國防的支出，其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷地在放大、不斷不斷地在付出，可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果，而美中如果在APEC有討論到台灣的時候，甚至我們有可能很多地方會被犧牲得更多。最重要的是我們押單邊，我們一直說美國對我們很好，事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下？"],["林部長佳龍：我想台美關係是互惠的……"],["馬委員文君：我們有互惠嗎？哪一部分？"],["林部長佳龍：當然有，台灣的安全、經濟還有我們在國際組織的參與……"],["馬委員文君：針對台灣的安全，美國沒有絕對的承諾，他沒有說要幫台灣出兵。我們現在看到的是在關稅方面，剛剛你們有提到韓國、你們有提到其他的國家，我們看韓國好了，這一次APEC是在韓國舉行，他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了。我想要請教一下，如果以剛開始的設定，美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP3.8%，對日本要求要達到3.5%，對我們也是要求甚至高達3.32%，我們明年已經高達3.32%，總統是說到2030年才要到達5%，可是我們現在看起來不是，我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了。我想請教部長，就你所知，韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為所謂的關稅談判是匡一個大的數字，比如說5,500億或3,500億，因為他讓美國有比較大的主導權，我們這邊……"],["馬委員文君：部長，韓國跟日本包括馬來西亞、包括其他東協國家都沒有，他們現在都被放寬，甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟……我們今天為什麼會不斷提到這個部分？尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來，我想要請教的是，剛剛已經提到了，顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案，你們說有沙盤推演，可是到現在提不出其中的一個，如果我們看到他們在舉行APEC時雙方有碰面的時候，我們再來隨時因應，那時候再請教，因為現在你們回答不出來。","可是我們要特別請教的是，我們過去在跟大陸談，那時候都說是黑箱，那現在用這麼機密的方式，因為所有的國家都有跟國人或者跟他們相關的民意代表……就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告，可是我們卻用很高的機敏性的態度來面對，因為不斷不斷地變，你覺得哪一種我們的損失會比較多？"],["林部長佳龍：我們台灣有自己的國家利益，也要捍衛自己的國家安全……"],["馬委員文君：台灣的國家利益是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：當然是維持我們的主權還有安全跟發展……"],["馬委員文君：我們如果不斷地付出、我們不斷地犧牲，我們還有主權嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：什麼？"],["馬委員文君：我們不斷地犧牲跟付出，我們有主權嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有啊！"],["馬委員文君：我們現在看到的，我先簡單請教，請農業部一起上來，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，農業部。"],["馬委員文君：我想請教一下，因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行，對不對？請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法了嗎？有沒有？你必須定期查核的有多少人？因為你們有參與。"],["林主任秘書家榮：報告委員，詳細的人數我不知道，但是有非常多的人。"],["馬委員文君：哪些人？"],["林主任秘書家榮：除了相關的長官以外，另外像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關同仁。"],["馬委員文君：他們都有被核定嗎？"],["林主任秘書家榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：核定為機敏？"],["林主任秘書家榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：怎麼處理？"],["林主任秘書家榮：當然就是依照相關的規定來管制。"],["馬委員文君：什麼叫相關的規定？因為你有參與嘛？"],["林主任秘書家榮：對。"],["馬委員文君：你本身有參與嗎？"],["林主任秘書家榮：有，我本身有被管制……"],["馬委員文君：有做什麼樣的約束嗎？"],["林主任秘書家榮：比如說我們要出國的話，就要報准。"],["馬委員文君：報准？"],["林主任秘書家榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：然後呢？"],["林主任秘書家榮：如果在國外有接觸任何相關人員的話，回來也要通報。"],["馬委員文君：我們被核判的機密等級，就您的立場來看，你被核定的等級是什麼？是密、機密還是極機密？"],["林主任秘書家榮：這個我就不清楚，因為我就是被管制的人員。"],["馬委員文君：你有參與嘛？可是你……因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件，可是你自己被匡的到底是哪一種密件的等級，你自己都不知道？我們在上一次要求的時候，行政院第一個回答是副院長室人員有參與談判的皆有經過安全查核，對不對？您有嗎？"],["林主任秘書家榮：我本身也有經過安全查核。"],["馬委員文君：怎麼樣的安全查核？"],["林主任秘書家榮：細部我真的不知道，但是據我的了解，我知道是送到調查局去查核。"],["馬委員文君：有送過去？農業部其他還有什麼人？"],["林主任秘書家榮：其實也不是只有農業部，就每一個單位負責國際跟兩岸……"],["馬委員文君：沒有，我現在問的是農業部，因為你只能代表農業部嘛，其他單位他們有自己的那個，我想請教一下，農業部有多少人？或者舉一個職位好了，還有誰？"],["林主任秘書家榮：比如我跟剛剛跟委員報告，比如我們辦國際事務的，像國際司的司長。"],["馬委員文君：他們全部都有？"],["林主任秘書家榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：會後把那個資料提供給我們，好不好？因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說，表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核，你們經過的是安全查核，只有一般的查核，可是因為你在立法院保持非常高的機密性，從來沒有洩漏過任何一個訊息，第二個回答是，另依國家機密保護法規定出境前應經核准之人，均有依照該法規申請出境，這就表示可能是只有副院長、楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該核准之人，副院長辦公室的那些機要人員，像江姓或李姓這樣的人員，其實他們都大剌剌地出現在鏡頭面前，他們也都出去了，可是他們都沒有被列入應經核准之人，明顯違反國家機密保護法第二十六條，這個部分，我想部長也在這裡，今天如果要提供給我們資料，你可以這麼隨便的時候……","今天行政院經貿辦有來嘛？副院長在過去其實是非常大力地反服貿黑箱，今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候，卻是另一個樣子。而且我們是按照美國寫的劇本在演，美國不斷在變，我們不斷在付出，這個用一句話來形容叫請君入甕。鄭麗君鄭副院長在服貿的時候，他曾經大力地說這是黑箱，在服貿的時候，反而我們付出的相對很少，我們賣出很多，我們得到的利多也很多，但那時候我們卻被說成是黑箱。今天我們看到國防支出不斷地上升，我們明年公開的預算有9,450億，還有特別預算已經一千多億，甚至還有人在美國放話，說我們還要再編一兆多，這樣子的國防支出是安全的嗎？這是在掏空台灣，這個部分我們不斷不斷地付出，可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人說明。我們付出這麼多，包括剛剛我們提到的農業，包括我們其他的投資，包括整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候，我們到底可以得到什麼？到現在關稅的結果還不知道，韓國已經要討論細節了，馬來西亞也討論細節了，很多東協國家都已經知道，而且他們是減少的，但我們到現在卻不斷增加，這不是黑箱，什麼叫黑箱？","當你們要做這樣的行為的時候，你們告訴我們這是一個非常機敏的案子，可是誰被管制了？我們問起來，其實大家都沒有被管制，只有立法院、只有台灣所有的人民被匡在什麼都不需要知道、都不應該知道、都不必知道的一個情況之下，這是我們今天特別要說的。","因為時間的關係，部長，我們希望外交部把經驗分享給其他的單位，行政院也是，我們詢問或者是我們要的資料要怎麼樣用機密的文件來提供。農委會跟行政院，我們上一次有說到相關的人員，包括你的機要人員，是做什麼樣的查核、什麼樣的等級，應該提供給我們，已經拖很久了。所以我們在這裡慎重地要求，希望在三天之內把那個過程提供給我們，用密件也沒關係，如果不懂的話去問外交部，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會把經驗分享，然後……"],["馬委員文君：沒有，我們三天之內就要查核的人員名單跟他們查核的方式，農委會跟行政院經貿辦有沒有問題？"],["林主任秘書家榮：報告委員，如果是符合相關的規定，我們一定會照……"],["馬委員文君：對啊！因為你們都已經做了嘛，你們都已經出去談回來了，你們告訴我們所有的委員說我們都不用知道，因為這是機敏的，你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議，所以我們都不用知道，也不應該知道，也不可以知道，你們完全沒有報告任何的內容，我們一而再、再而三，大家在關切的、全體國人在關切的部分，你們都沒有人提出來。"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：報告委員，有關於談判代表的部分，我們是仿照各國的慣例，各國都是只有公布主談人以及部長級以上的官員，至於……"],["馬委員文君：因為他們沒有列機密，你今天在我們國內列機密，比如像我們開機密會議的時候，不是只有立法委員或是官員列出來，在場的其實全部都要，還包括立法院的議事人員，這些人其實都會列在機密的範圍裡面。今天如果你代表所有國人或許不是主談的對象，可是你有參與，那也算，所以請提供相關的文書資料，密件就用密件，一定要提供，好不好？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：我們會再依照相關規定來處理。"],["馬委員文君：什麼叫依照相關規定？依照相關規定就是如果是密件，立法院要求的，你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們，這樣有問題嗎？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：就像剛剛跟委員報告的，談判的慣例就是……"],["馬委員文君：有兩位機要人員，我已經說了，在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現，很多人都看到了，他們去參與的時候到底是用什麼樣的身分，也請提供，謝謝。"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，各位部會首長請回座。","接下來請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅美玲","黃仁","林楚茵","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","賴惠員","林德福","黃國昌","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","林倩綺"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「近期台美關係及關稅談判進展」，併請行政院經貿談判辦公室、經\n濟部、農業部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148601_00006"}}}