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\"充\", \"start\": 681.06, \"end\": 681.24, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 681.24, \"end\": 681.26, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 681.26, \"end\": 681.28, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,251 --> 00:00:27,459\n謝謝部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤空儲或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後\n\n2\n00:00:28,599 --> 00:00:48,582\n就是不管是委員啊議員啊其實都收到非常多的陳情那上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通那我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家那航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何\n\n3\n00:00:50,274 --> 00:01:14,164\n我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個情墮考核\n\n4\n00:01:15,616 --> 00:01:30,723\n那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反應這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分\n\n5\n00:01:41,775 --> 00:01:51,496\n那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧\n\n6\n00:01:52,923 --> 00:02:20,959\n委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好\n\n7\n00:02:21,559 --> 00:02:42,117\n那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待我想我們再來了解好謝謝\n\n8\n00:02:43,925 --> 00:03:02,420\n那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量\n\n9\n00:03:03,681 --> 00:03:31,475\n就獨立了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心\n\n10\n00:03:32,555 --> 00:03:39,538\n我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有\n\n11\n00:04:00,408 --> 00:04:24,862\n只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員\n\n12\n00:04:25,842 --> 00:04:41,555\n不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事兼市長\n\n13\n00:04:42,296 --> 00:04:48,060\n王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告\n\n14\n00:05:07,952 --> 00:05:36,331\n你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說\n\n15\n00:05:38,499 --> 00:05:46,173\n一个其实在昨天院会上面我们其实就已经表达其实我们是赞成法治化的方向这个法治化的意思其实当然就是定律专法\n\n16\n00:05:47,495 --> 00:06:14,035\n那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分\n\n17\n00:06:14,335 --> 00:06:30,642\n所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嘛你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門\n\n18\n00:06:32,022 --> 00:06:51,477\n對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法制化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引你昨天的報告也寫指引其實你可以看報告號其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法制化的方向\n\n19\n00:06:52,182 --> 00:07:07,468\n那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出版本那但是確實是因為現在法制的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法制的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間\n\n20\n00:07:08,188 --> 00:07:33,898\n好因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以如果我當然希望可以\n\n21\n00:07:35,794 --> 00:07:53,956\n因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎\n\n22\n00:07:54,759 --> 00:08:13,490\n當然我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年你沒辦法後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思\n\n23\n00:08:19,373 --> 00:08:38,892\n謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題是那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做PeterHowitt\n\n24\n00:08:39,392 --> 00:08:55,975\n那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為\n\n25\n00:08:57,136 --> 00:09:26,156\nAI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的執行然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了\n\n26\n00:09:26,536 --> 00:09:33,933\n目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目\n\n27\n00:09:35,222 --> 00:09:59,862\n其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是市警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見\n\n28\n00:10:00,943 --> 00:10:28,100\n這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的\n\n29\n00:10:29,060 --> 00:10:43,748\n對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則\n\n30\n00:10:45,560 --> 00:11:03,935\n我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論\n\n31\n00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:21,280\n我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4251\t27459\t謝謝 部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤 空儲或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後\n28599\t48582\t就是不管是委員啊議員啊其實都收到非常多的陳情那上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通那我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家那航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何\n50274\t74164\t我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家 七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個情墮考核\n75616\t90723\t那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反應這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分\n101775\t111496\t那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧\n112923\t140959\t委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好\n141559\t162117\t那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待我想我們再來了解好 謝謝\n163925\t182420\t那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦 趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量\n183681\t211475\t就獨立了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心\n212555\t219538\t我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有\n240408\t264862\t只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員\n265842\t281555\t不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事兼市長\n282296\t288060\t王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告\n307952\t336331\t你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說\n338499\t346173\t一个其实在昨天院会上面我们其实就已经表达其实我们是赞成法治化的方向这个法治化的意思其实当然就是定律专法\n347495\t374035\t那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分\n374335\t390642\t所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嘛你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門\n392022\t411477\t對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法制化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引你昨天的報告也寫指引其實你可以看報告號其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法制化的方向\n412182\t427468\t那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出版本那但是確實是因為現在法制的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法制的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間\n428188\t453898\t好 因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以 如果我當然希望可以\n455794\t473956\t因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎\n474759\t493490\t當然我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年你沒辦法後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思\n499373\t518892\t謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題是那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做Peter Howitt\n519392\t535975\t那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為\n537136\t566156\tAI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的執行然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了\n566536\t573933\t目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目\n575222\t599862\t其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是市警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見\n600943\t628100\t這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的\n629060\t643748\t對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則\n645560\t663935\t我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論\n664676\t681280\t我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝 部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤 空儲或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後\n就是不管是委員啊議員啊其實都收到非常多的陳情那上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通那我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家那航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何\n我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家 七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個情墮考核\n那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反應這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分\n那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧\n委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好\n那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待我想我們再來了解好 謝謝\n那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦 趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量\n就獨立了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心\n我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有\n只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員\n不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事兼市長\n王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告\n你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說\n一个其实在昨天院会上面我们其实就已经表达其实我们是赞成法治化的方向这个法治化的意思其实当然就是定律专法\n那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分\n所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嘛你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門\n對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法制化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引你昨天的報告也寫指引其實你可以看報告號其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法制化的方向\n那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出版本那但是確實是因為現在法制的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法制的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間\n好 因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以 如果我當然希望可以\n因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎\n當然我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年你沒辦法後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思\n謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題是那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做Peter Howitt\n那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為\nAI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的執行然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了\n目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目\n其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是市警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見\n這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的\n對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則\n我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論\n我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.251 --> 00:27.459\n謝謝部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤空儲或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後\n\n00:28.599 --> 00:48.582\n就是不管是委員啊議員啊其實都收到非常多的陳情那上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通那我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家那航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何\n\n00:50.274 --> 01:14.164\n我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個情墮考核\n\n01:15.616 --> 01:30.723\n那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反應這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分\n\n01:41.775 --> 01:51.496\n那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧\n\n01:52.923 --> 02:20.959\n委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好\n\n02:21.559 --> 02:42.117\n那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待我想我們再來了解好謝謝\n\n02:43.925 --> 03:02.420\n那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量\n\n03:03.681 --> 03:31.475\n就獨立了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心\n\n03:32.555 --> 03:39.538\n我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有\n\n04:00.408 --> 04:24.862\n只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員\n\n04:25.842 --> 04:41.555\n不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事兼市長\n\n04:42.296 --> 04:48.060\n王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告\n\n05:07.952 --> 05:36.331\n你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說\n\n05:38.499 --> 05:46.173\n一个其实在昨天院会上面我们其实就已经表达其实我们是赞成法治化的方向这个法治化的意思其实当然就是定律专法\n\n05:47.495 --> 06:14.035\n那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分\n\n06:14.335 --> 06:30.642\n所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嘛你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門\n\n06:32.022 --> 06:51.477\n對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法制化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引你昨天的報告也寫指引其實你可以看報告號其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法制化的方向\n\n06:52.182 --> 07:07.468\n那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出版本那但是確實是因為現在法制的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法制的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間\n\n07:08.188 --> 07:33.898\n好因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以如果我當然希望可以\n\n07:35.794 --> 07:53.956\n因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎\n\n07:54.759 --> 08:13.490\n當然我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年你沒辦法後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思\n\n08:19.373 --> 08:38.892\n謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題是那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做PeterHowitt\n\n08:39.392 --> 08:55.975\n那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為\n\n08:57.136 --> 09:26.156\nAI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的執行然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了\n\n09:26.536 --> 09:33.933\n目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目\n\n09:35.222 --> 09:59.862\n其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是市警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見\n\n10:00.943 --> 10:28.100\n這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的\n\n10:29.060 --> 10:43.748\n對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則\n\n10:45.560 --> 11:03.935\n我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論\n\n11:04.676 --> 11:21.280\n我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.251,"end":27.459,"text":"謝謝 部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤 空儲或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後"},{"start":28.599,"end":48.582,"text":"就是不管是委員啊議員啊其實都收到非常多的陳情那上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通那我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家那航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何"},{"start":50.274,"end":74.164,"text":"我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家 七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個情墮考核"},{"start":75.616,"end":90.723,"text":"那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反應這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分"},{"start":101.775,"end":111.496,"text":"那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧"},{"start":112.923,"end":140.959,"text":"委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好"},{"start":141.559,"end":162.117,"text":"那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待我想我們再來了解好 謝謝"},{"start":163.925,"end":182.42,"text":"那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦 趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量"},{"start":183.681,"end":211.475,"text":"就獨立了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心"},{"start":212.555,"end":219.538,"text":"我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有"},{"start":240.408,"end":264.862,"text":"只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員"},{"start":265.842,"end":281.555,"text":"不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事兼市長"},{"start":282.296,"end":288.06,"text":"王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告"},{"start":307.952,"end":336.331,"text":"你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說"},{"start":338.499,"end":346.173,"text":"一个其实在昨天院会上面我们其实就已经表达其实我们是赞成法治化的方向这个法治化的意思其实当然就是定律专法"},{"start":347.495,"end":374.035,"text":"那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分"},{"start":374.335,"end":390.642,"text":"所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嘛你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門"},{"start":392.022,"end":411.477,"text":"對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法制化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引你昨天的報告也寫指引其實你可以看報告號其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法制化的方向"},{"start":412.182,"end":427.468,"text":"那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出版本那但是確實是因為現在法制的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法制的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間"},{"start":428.188,"end":453.898,"text":"好 因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以 如果我當然希望可以"},{"start":455.794,"end":473.956,"text":"因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎"},{"start":474.759,"end":493.49,"text":"當然我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年你沒辦法後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思"},{"start":499.373,"end":518.892,"text":"謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題是那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做Peter Howitt"},{"start":519.392,"end":535.975,"text":"那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為"},{"start":537.136,"end":566.156,"text":"AI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的執行然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了"},{"start":566.536,"end":573.933,"text":"目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目"},{"start":575.222,"end":599.862,"text":"其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是市警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見"},{"start":600.943,"end":628.1,"text":"這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的"},{"start":629.06,"end":643.748,"text":"對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則"},{"start":645.56,"end":663.935,"text":"我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論"},{"start":664.676,"end":681.28,"text":"我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時53分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，上週我們有質詢到空服員，還有圍繞整個航空業，包括地勤、空廚或者是免稅店等等，這邊有講到，比如說像其他航空就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同待遇的狀況，另外，他們也說，如果多請假，可能會列入考績，要記申誡。不管是委員、議員其實都收到非常多的陳情，上禮拜您答應我要開始跟航空公司溝通，我也看到您確實去了，我想問一下，你們到底溝通了幾家航空公司，航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通，然後進度如何？"],["洪部長申翰：在上禮拜委員會之後，因為朝野很多委員都關心，所以我們在上禮拜就找了6家航空公司來跟他們討論，在會上大家也作成了4點共識，其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入勤惰考核。"],["陳委員菁徽：除了航空業以外，本席有跟您說，其他圍繞著航空業的地勤、空廚和免稅店其實也一直反映這樣子的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：地勤當然也是在航空業裡面。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，其他的還沒嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論，但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，針對航空業的部分，你們希望它改善，除了你剛剛提到的議題，對於其他的議題，請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎？應該有其他的吧？"],["黃司長琦雅：委員關心的是航空業裡面的服務人員，包含他的病假、包含他的考核，而且我們會強調，因為6家國籍航空公司都有工會，我們在溝通過程中，他們6家工會關心的相關細節不一，所以我們也要求航空業者應該要儘速安排跟工會協商，針對這一塊，業者也都同意，也達成在共識的事項裡面。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。還有環繞航空業相關的，比如說免稅店、空廚等等，如果您還行有餘力，我們真的希望您去關心，因為他們是跟航空業綁在一起的，包括工時等等，所以他們也一樣面臨很多超時或是高壓的對待。"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們再來了解。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。這邊也是要感謝召委，這是幫召委整理出來的，我們從立法院的議事系統、發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人，裡面包括5位國民黨的委員，包括民眾黨，包括時代力量，就獨漏了一個黨，叫做民進黨，然而昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓地開了一個極度虛假的記者會，這個就是執政黨的態度，苗頭不對，就開始收割，開始各種蹭，這跟普發現金又面臨一模一樣的問題，普發現金本來說是毀憲亂政，要救大罷免，突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心，我真的不理解，我為召委感到不平，為什麼？他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會？這個可能部長也記得，2023年的時候，外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議，希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲，為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團呢？因為當時的民進黨團是只要想修什麼法，就可以通過什麼法；只要他們不想修的，就不想修，自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲，這些人統計起來，目前官方的數字大概有14萬、15萬了，也還好廖偉翔召委今天排了外送員草案的審查，民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會，跟大家報告會提出相關版本支持外送員。不覺得手上什麼都沒有，就開始開記者會，真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷地超越自己的極限。","部長，我再唸一次，去（2024）年外送產業工會監事長王郁揚代表說，行政院從來沒有一個版本，是zero！行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡研議了12年，剛才部長有講到，其實你們已經討論了好幾個月，昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告，你說你們討論好幾個月了，但你也沒把相關修法寫進你的報告，你是今天早上才突然跟我們說，有！你有修法進度，你希望12月以前可以提出來。這邊寫得很明顯，其實你們已經研議了12年，OK，你說你有修法進度，你幾個月內都有討論，但你沒有寫在報告裡啊！你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說，你開放各種不同的聲音，然後你要推出一個指引。不是？你想說什麼？你先說。"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，其實在昨天院會，我們就已經表達我們是贊成法制化的方向，這個法制化的意思當然就是訂立專法。"],["陳委員菁徽：你也可以把你12月前會推出這個專法寫在你的報告裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：確實，我們在研議跟規劃行政部門版本的過程中，因為還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合，畢竟外送這整個事情涉及到跨部會的權責，比方說，消費者的部分，或者是平台店家的部分，這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是，研議了12年，因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年，不斷、不斷地在研議，你現在終於要把它統整起來了？"],["洪部長申翰：是，可以跟委員報告，我不否認過去行政部門對於這個部分比較認為要用指引的方式來處理，可是這幾個月我們認為應該要朝法制化的方向……"],["陳委員菁徽：不是這幾個月，你昨天的報告也寫指引。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，如果你可以看報告的話，其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到我們是贊成法制化的方向。"],["陳委員菁徽：你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出版本。"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是確實是因為現在法制的程序，它有後面一定要走的程序，所以我們剛才也是在評估這個法制的程序上面，其實最快、最快可能要3個月的時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們廖偉翔召委是非常有決心的，因為這已經列為國民黨團、民眾黨團的優先法案，我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會，請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查，然後出這個委員會？"],["洪部長申翰：我當然希望可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引，昨天民進黨團也直接設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部，代表勞動部對此有很大的責任。我是希望召委在審查這個草案的過程，不會缺乏你們的角色，這樣子可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然不會缺席。"],["陳委員菁徽：希望比12月的進度再快一點，畢竟你也研擬了12年，沒辦法？後面的人搖頭。"],["洪部長申翰：因為真的有一些法制作業，其實條文的內容我們是差不多了，可是行政部門還是會有一個法制的程序，比方說，要預告、要法規會審議，這些相關的程序還是要走過，所以這個是比較不好意思的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步。","再來，你記不記得有一天我跟很多執政黨委員一起問你關於AI的問題？這個人是剛得到諾貝爾經濟學獎，10月13日才得到獎項的加拿大經濟學家，叫做Peter Howitt，他的畢生成就就是在於闡述用創造性破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論，他的理論是，AI是一個非常神奇的技術，所以他認為AI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力。我想說的是，他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻來對全世界進行第一手示警。而這是我們上次提到的問題，上次許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視、演算法的偏見、職場監控等等，所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的指引，然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了，目前你的指引內容，除了你講到的這三樣外，你認為有沒有需要再增加項目？"],["洪部長申翰：因為AI的發展是持續進行的，而這三個指引我們也研擬到一個階段了，我們正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認指引的內容，現在大概進入到這個階段。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我剛剛已經跟你說了，其實這位經濟學家就是在示警AI會直接取代勞工的工作，所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目。我在這邊提供您一個意見，這個是勞動部自己出版的臺灣勞工季刊，去年3月就刊出了第77期，官網上都有，而且我們當時都已經在立法院了，這一篇是文化大學的潘世偉教授寫的，他的標題就是「數位轉型對勞資關係之影響與因應」，很長，但是我把重點整理給您，我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的，對於勞工的AI教育、技術提升，甚至是預防被取代的具體措施，還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權，以及確立由勞工操作AI，而不是被AI操作的根本原則，我是建議您把這些也列入你的指引裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員報告，因為這個相關的研議是一個滿專業的工作，所以我們現在把這幾個指引，不管是有些部分需要跨部會的，比方說數位部，我們也在找數位部討論，也在跟相關AI發展的專家討論，看我們相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方，還有可行性，還有未來其實還要一定的發展性，因為AI的發展並不是到現在、停在這邊，它會持續地發展，所以要讓它有一定的擴充性。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以我說您的刊物真的也是寫得不錯，對於您當初提出來的三點，其實可以再更加擴充，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}