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00:01:27,141\n如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議\n\n5\n00:01:28,763 --> 00:01:44,461\n基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了\n\n6\n00:01:45,149 --> 00:02:06,509\n對我們積極在研擬積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府在經濟部溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來\n\n7\n00:02:06,929 --> 00:02:34,241\n可長可久好次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題\n\n8\n00:02:35,141 --> 00:02:56,856\n我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力\n\n9\n00:02:57,276 --> 00:03:12,579\n朝著前盤的修正的方向好市長謝謝那接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式那針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次呢\n\n10\n00:03:14,491 --> 00:03:41,610\n會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了就是說在115年中央政府釋出了多少的一個統籌分配管給地方政府那非常清楚就是8841億\n\n11\n00:03:44,352 --> 00:04:10,505\n那中央跟地方政府的整體的稅收的分配那這個你剛才也有回答了另外一個委員在早期的話我們是大概是75那個中央是75地方是25那現在如果這個像現在新的財務法跟那個一般性的那個補助辦法的話那我們回到60比40就像你們昨天跟地方政府的一個溝通\n\n12\n00:04:11,825 --> 00:04:37,567\n我看了那個資料是講到了就是說不管是桃園不管是台北是新北都非常的樂意嘛因為他們分到了很多的錢嘛可是雲林跟台東都不願意嘛為什麼他們分配少了分配少了主委總長你來自於台南我想用台南的一個經驗告訴你就是說中央的財政會不會失衡那地方就是說\n\n13\n00:04:39,128 --> 00:04:52,570\n政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單的用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這個這一次\n\n14\n00:04:53,732 --> 00:05:12,429\n他多拿了100他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老龍津貼他的龍寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校\n\n15\n00:05:13,530 --> 00:05:28,630\n巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話他在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢\n\n16\n00:05:30,219 --> 00:05:44,492\n我想在這裡請教巴索國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會今年不會減對今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序這個部分\n\n17\n00:05:45,553 --> 00:06:12,766\n但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講9個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平然後只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年度計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身\n\n18\n00:06:13,206 --> 00:06:34,328\n应该要做的项目就应该要自己去做去确定说你到底要办理什么项目是这样所以就是说我会补到114年额度相同的一个金额到114年没有问题可是到115年的话会不会产生问题呢115年会照114年度的额度去补\n\n19\n00:06:35,689 --> 00:07:00,315\n譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子就會把它補齊所以到目前為止到115還能就是有一個比較正常的一個那個就是分配的方式所以維持三項它只增不減\n\n20\n00:07:01,255 --> 00:07:16,742\n只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于\n\n21\n00:07:17,202 --> 00:07:36,914\n中央必須引導比如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關的機會列在一般性補助裡面\n\n22\n00:07:37,334 --> 00:07:52,206\n那我可以不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計畫型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款\n\n23\n00:07:52,466 --> 00:08:07,245\n他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助裡面的財政均衡會補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊\n\n24\n00:08:08,106 --> 00:08:29,268\n但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會\n\n25\n00:08:30,109 --> 00:08:46,076\n没有跟委员报告新的财务法已经在规划所以这个财务法里面他就会把一般性的一个基本支出规划在财务法里面包括收入支出\n\n26\n00:08:46,516 --> 00:09:02,099\n然后整个之后他如果有差短他就会透过财务法里面统筹分配税来做弥补弥补之后其他所增加的财源就是作为他本身本身其他的一个项目的使用所以这部分\n\n27\n00:09:03,696 --> 00:09:25,757\n在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他\n\n28\n00:09:28,979 --> 00:09:48,487\n考慮給他成長的一個機會說好那這樣子的話這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看\n\n29\n00:09:52,321 --> 00:10:18,726\n所以如果你不用审计的一个态度在事后去公开他在整体的一个施政他的成绩的话那这个会变成我们整个社会就非常的乱那你该补贴的你没有补贴那穷的就像你刚刚讲的穷的更穷有钱的更有钱那以后大家都不住在南部啦大家都往北部移啊那事实上是不可能啊\n\n30\n00:10:20,063 --> 00:10:36,156\n那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好\n\n31\n00:10:37,372 --> 00:10:52,190\n跟大家加油啊因為我想這個財劃法這個統治我分配幫我們大家這是搞得好重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導的更好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝賴會員委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4481\t9247\t主席有請主席總長跟蘭次長蘭部長委員好是\n17202\t41377\t主席總長跟兩位早安今天本席就修法的部分中央對地方補助的方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議在這裡我想先請教一下次長就是卓院長他有宣誓說要提出才化法才化法的才化法\n46226\t61107\t要提出財化法的二修的版本行政院有沒有具體的一個時間表有沒有對 財化法二修基本上我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來在什麼時間\n63273\t87141\t如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然 行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議\n88763\t104461\t基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了\n105149\t126509\t對 我們積極在研擬 積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府在經濟部溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來\n126929\t154241\t可長可久好 次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題\n155141\t176856\t我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力\n177276\t192579\t朝著前盤的修正的方向好 市長謝謝那接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式那針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次呢\n194491\t221610\t會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了就是說在115年中央政府釋出了多少的一個統籌分配管給地方政府那非常清楚就是8841億\n224352\t250505\t那中央跟地方政府的整體的稅收的分配那這個你剛才也有回答了另外一個委員在早期的話我們是大概是75那個中央是75地方是25那現在如果這個像現在新的財務法跟那個一般性的那個補助辦法的話那我們回到60比40就像你們昨天跟地方政府的一個溝通\n251825\t277567\t我看了那個資料是講到了就是說不管是桃園不管是台北是新北都非常的樂意嘛因為他們分到了很多的錢嘛可是雲林跟台東都不願意嘛為什麼他們分配少了分配少了主委總長你來自於台南我想用台南的一個經驗告訴你就是說中央的財政會不會失衡那地方就是說\n279128\t292570\t政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單的用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這個這一次\n293732\t312429\t他多拿了100他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老龍津貼他的龍寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校\n313530\t328630\t巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話他在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢\n330219\t344492\t我想在這裡請教巴索國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會 今年不會減對 今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序這個部分\n345553\t372766\t但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講9個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平然後只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年度計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身\n373206\t394328\t应该要做的项目就应该要自己去做去确定说你到底要办理什么项目是这样所以就是说我会补到114年额度相同的一个金额到114年没有问题可是到115年的话会不会产生问题呢115年会照114年度的额度去补\n395689\t420315\t譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子就會把它補齊所以到目前為止到115還能就是有一個比較正常的一個那個就是分配的方式所以維持三項它只增不減\n421255\t436742\t只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于\n437202\t456914\t中央必須引導比如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關的機會列在一般性補助裡面\n457334\t472206\t那我可以不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計畫型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款\n472466\t487245\t他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助裡面的財政均衡會補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊\n488106\t509268\t但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會\n510109\t526076\t没有跟委员报告新的财务法已经在规划所以这个财务法里面他就会把一般性的一个基本支出规划在财务法里面包括收入支出\n526516\t542099\t然后整个之后他如果有差短他就会透过财务法里面统筹分配税来做弥补弥补之后其他所增加的财源就是作为他本身本身其他的一个项目的使用所以这部分\n543696\t565757\t在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他\n568979\t588487\t考慮給他成長的一個機會說好那這樣子的話這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看\n592321\t618726\t所以如果你不用审计的一个态度在事后去公开他在整体的一个施政他的成绩的话那这个会变成我们整个社会就非常的乱那你该补贴的你没有补贴那穷的就像你刚刚讲的穷的更穷有钱的更有钱那以后大家都不住在南部啦大家都往北部移啊那事实上是不可能啊\n620063\t636156\t那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是 我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好\n637372\t652190\t跟大家加油啊因為我想這個財劃法這個統治我分配幫我們大家這是搞得好重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導的更好謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝賴會員 委員\n","txt":"主席有請主席總長跟蘭次長蘭部長委員好是\n主席總長跟兩位早安今天本席就修法的部分中央對地方補助的方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議在這裡我想先請教一下次長就是卓院長他有宣誓說要提出才化法才化法的才化法\n要提出財化法的二修的版本行政院有沒有具體的一個時間表有沒有對 財化法二修基本上我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來在什麼時間\n如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然 行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議\n基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了\n對 我們積極在研擬 積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府在經濟部溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來\n可長可久好 次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題\n我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力\n朝著前盤的修正的方向好 市長謝謝那接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式那針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次呢\n會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了就是說在115年中央政府釋出了多少的一個統籌分配管給地方政府那非常清楚就是8841億\n那中央跟地方政府的整體的稅收的分配那這個你剛才也有回答了另外一個委員在早期的話我們是大概是75那個中央是75地方是25那現在如果這個像現在新的財務法跟那個一般性的那個補助辦法的話那我們回到60比40就像你們昨天跟地方政府的一個溝通\n我看了那個資料是講到了就是說不管是桃園不管是台北是新北都非常的樂意嘛因為他們分到了很多的錢嘛可是雲林跟台東都不願意嘛為什麼他們分配少了分配少了主委總長你來自於台南我想用台南的一個經驗告訴你就是說中央的財政會不會失衡那地方就是說\n政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單的用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這個這一次\n他多拿了100他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老龍津貼他的龍寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校\n巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話他在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢\n我想在這裡請教巴索國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會 今年不會減對 今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序這個部分\n但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講9個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平然後只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年度計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身\n应该要做的项目就应该要自己去做去确定说你到底要办理什么项目是这样所以就是说我会补到114年额度相同的一个金额到114年没有问题可是到115年的话会不会产生问题呢115年会照114年度的额度去补\n譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子就會把它補齊所以到目前為止到115還能就是有一個比較正常的一個那個就是分配的方式所以維持三項它只增不減\n只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于\n中央必須引導比如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關的機會列在一般性補助裡面\n那我可以不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計畫型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款\n他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助裡面的財政均衡會補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊\n但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會\n没有跟委员报告新的财务法已经在规划所以这个财务法里面他就会把一般性的一个基本支出规划在财务法里面包括收入支出\n然后整个之后他如果有差短他就会透过财务法里面统筹分配税来做弥补弥补之后其他所增加的财源就是作为他本身本身其他的一个项目的使用所以这部分\n在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他\n考慮給他成長的一個機會說好那這樣子的話這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看\n所以如果你不用审计的一个态度在事后去公开他在整体的一个施政他的成绩的话那这个会变成我们整个社会就非常的乱那你该补贴的你没有补贴那穷的就像你刚刚讲的穷的更穷有钱的更有钱那以后大家都不住在南部啦大家都往北部移啊那事实上是不可能啊\n那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是 我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好\n跟大家加油啊因為我想這個財劃法這個統治我分配幫我們大家這是搞得好重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導的更好謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝賴會員 委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.481 --> 00:09.247\n主席有請主席總長跟蘭次長蘭部長委員好是\n\n00:17.202 --> 00:41.377\n主席總長跟兩位早安今天本席就修法的部分中央對地方補助的方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議在這裡我想先請教一下次長就是卓院長他有宣誓說要提出才化法才化法的才化法\n\n00:46.226 --> 01:01.107\n要提出財化法的二修的版本行政院有沒有具體的一個時間表有沒有對財化法二修基本上我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來在什麼時間\n\n01:03.273 --> 01:27.141\n如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議\n\n01:28.763 --> 01:44.461\n基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了\n\n01:45.149 --> 02:06.509\n對我們積極在研擬積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府在經濟部溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來\n\n02:06.929 --> 02:34.241\n可長可久好次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題\n\n02:35.141 --> 02:56.856\n我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力\n\n02:57.276 --> 03:12.579\n朝著前盤的修正的方向好市長謝謝那接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式那針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次呢\n\n03:14.491 --> 03:41.610\n會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了就是說在115年中央政府釋出了多少的一個統籌分配管給地方政府那非常清楚就是8841億\n\n03:44.352 --> 04:10.505\n那中央跟地方政府的整體的稅收的分配那這個你剛才也有回答了另外一個委員在早期的話我們是大概是75那個中央是75地方是25那現在如果這個像現在新的財務法跟那個一般性的那個補助辦法的話那我們回到60比40就像你們昨天跟地方政府的一個溝通\n\n04:11.825 --> 04:37.567\n我看了那個資料是講到了就是說不管是桃園不管是台北是新北都非常的樂意嘛因為他們分到了很多的錢嘛可是雲林跟台東都不願意嘛為什麼他們分配少了分配少了主委總長你來自於台南我想用台南的一個經驗告訴你就是說中央的財政會不會失衡那地方就是說\n\n04:39.128 --> 04:52.570\n政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單的用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這個這一次\n\n04:53.732 --> 05:12.429\n他多拿了100他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老龍津貼他的龍寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校\n\n05:13.530 --> 05:28.630\n巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話他在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢\n\n05:30.219 --> 05:44.492\n我想在這裡請教巴索國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會今年不會減對今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序這個部分\n\n05:45.553 --> 06:12.766\n但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講9個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平然後只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年度計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身\n\n06:13.206 --> 06:34.328\n应该要做的项目就应该要自己去做去确定说你到底要办理什么项目是这样所以就是说我会补到114年额度相同的一个金额到114年没有问题可是到115年的话会不会产生问题呢115年会照114年度的额度去补\n\n06:35.689 --> 07:00.315\n譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子就會把它補齊所以到目前為止到115還能就是有一個比較正常的一個那個就是分配的方式所以維持三項它只增不減\n\n07:01.255 --> 07:16.742\n只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于\n\n07:17.202 --> 07:36.914\n中央必須引導比如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關的機會列在一般性補助裡面\n\n07:37.334 --> 07:52.206\n那我可以不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計畫型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款\n\n07:52.466 --> 08:07.245\n他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助裡面的財政均衡會補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊\n\n08:08.106 --> 08:29.268\n但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會\n\n08:30.109 --> 08:46.076\n没有跟委员报告新的财务法已经在规划所以这个财务法里面他就会把一般性的一个基本支出规划在财务法里面包括收入支出\n\n08:46.516 --> 09:02.099\n然后整个之后他如果有差短他就会透过财务法里面统筹分配税来做弥补弥补之后其他所增加的财源就是作为他本身本身其他的一个项目的使用所以这部分\n\n09:03.696 --> 09:25.757\n在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他\n\n09:28.979 --> 09:48.487\n考慮給他成長的一個機會說好那這樣子的話這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看\n\n09:52.321 --> 10:18.726\n所以如果你不用审计的一个态度在事后去公开他在整体的一个施政他的成绩的话那这个会变成我们整个社会就非常的乱那你该补贴的你没有补贴那穷的就像你刚刚讲的穷的更穷有钱的更有钱那以后大家都不住在南部啦大家都往北部移啊那事实上是不可能啊\n\n10:20.063 --> 10:36.156\n那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好\n\n10:37.372 --> 10:52.190\n跟大家加油啊因為我想這個財劃法這個統治我分配幫我們大家這是搞得好重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導的更好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝賴會員委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.481,"end":9.247,"text":"主席有請主席總長跟蘭次長蘭部長委員好是"},{"start":17.202,"end":41.377,"text":"主席總長跟兩位早安今天本席就修法的部分中央對地方補助的方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議在這裡我想先請教一下次長就是卓院長他有宣誓說要提出才化法才化法的才化法"},{"start":46.226,"end":61.107,"text":"要提出財化法的二修的版本行政院有沒有具體的一個時間表有沒有對 財化法二修基本上我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來在什麼時間"},{"start":63.273,"end":87.141,"text":"如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然 行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議"},{"start":88.763,"end":104.461,"text":"基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了"},{"start":105.149,"end":126.509,"text":"對 我們積極在研擬 積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府在經濟部溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來"},{"start":126.929,"end":154.241,"text":"可長可久好 次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題"},{"start":155.141,"end":176.856,"text":"我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力"},{"start":177.276,"end":192.579,"text":"朝著前盤的修正的方向好 市長謝謝那接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式那針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次呢"},{"start":194.491,"end":221.61,"text":"會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了就是說在115年中央政府釋出了多少的一個統籌分配管給地方政府那非常清楚就是8841億"},{"start":224.352,"end":250.505,"text":"那中央跟地方政府的整體的稅收的分配那這個你剛才也有回答了另外一個委員在早期的話我們是大概是75那個中央是75地方是25那現在如果這個像現在新的財務法跟那個一般性的那個補助辦法的話那我們回到60比40就像你們昨天跟地方政府的一個溝通"},{"start":251.825,"end":277.567,"text":"我看了那個資料是講到了就是說不管是桃園不管是台北是新北都非常的樂意嘛因為他們分到了很多的錢嘛可是雲林跟台東都不願意嘛為什麼他們分配少了分配少了主委總長你來自於台南我想用台南的一個經驗告訴你就是說中央的財政會不會失衡那地方就是說"},{"start":279.128,"end":292.57,"text":"政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單的用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這個這一次"},{"start":293.732,"end":312.429,"text":"他多拿了100他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老龍津貼他的龍寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校"},{"start":313.53,"end":328.63,"text":"巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話他在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢"},{"start":330.219,"end":344.492,"text":"我想在這裡請教巴索國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會 今年不會減對 今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序這個部分"},{"start":345.553,"end":372.766,"text":"但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講9個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平然後只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年度計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身"},{"start":373.206,"end":394.328,"text":"应该要做的项目就应该要自己去做去确定说你到底要办理什么项目是这样所以就是说我会补到114年额度相同的一个金额到114年没有问题可是到115年的话会不会产生问题呢115年会照114年度的额度去补"},{"start":395.689,"end":420.315,"text":"譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子就會把它補齊所以到目前為止到115還能就是有一個比較正常的一個那個就是分配的方式所以維持三項它只增不減"},{"start":421.255,"end":436.742,"text":"只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于"},{"start":437.202,"end":456.914,"text":"中央必須引導比如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關的機會列在一般性補助裡面"},{"start":457.334,"end":472.206,"text":"那我可以不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計畫型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款"},{"start":472.466,"end":487.245,"text":"他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助裡面的財政均衡會補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊"},{"start":488.106,"end":509.268,"text":"但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會"},{"start":510.109,"end":526.076,"text":"没有跟委员报告新的财务法已经在规划所以这个财务法里面他就会把一般性的一个基本支出规划在财务法里面包括收入支出"},{"start":526.516,"end":542.099,"text":"然后整个之后他如果有差短他就会透过财务法里面统筹分配税来做弥补弥补之后其他所增加的财源就是作为他本身本身其他的一个项目的使用所以这部分"},{"start":543.696,"end":565.757,"text":"在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他"},{"start":568.979,"end":588.487,"text":"考慮給他成長的一個機會說好那這樣子的話這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看"},{"start":592.321,"end":618.726,"text":"所以如果你不用审计的一个态度在事后去公开他在整体的一个施政他的成绩的话那这个会变成我们整个社会就非常的乱那你该补贴的你没有补贴那穷的就像你刚刚讲的穷的更穷有钱的更有钱那以后大家都不住在南部啦大家都往北部移啊那事实上是不可能啊"},{"start":620.063,"end":636.156,"text":"那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是 我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好"},{"start":637.372,"end":652.19,"text":"跟大家加油啊因為我想這個財劃法這個統治我分配幫我們大家這是搞得好重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導的更好謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝賴會員 委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請主計長跟阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長跟次長，兩位早安。今天本席就修法的部分，中央對地方補助方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議，在這裡我想先請教一下次長，卓院長有宣示要提出財劃法二修版本，行政院有沒有具體的時間表？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來。"],["賴委員惠員：在什麼時間？"],["阮次長清華：如果可以的話，儘量在11月底之前，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：11月底之前？"],["阮次長清華：如果可以的話，我們儘量，因為還有很多需要溝通的……"],["賴委員惠員：如果不可以的話，你們最慢的底線會在什麼時候？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個要配合行政院的政策。"],["賴委員惠員：對！"],["阮次長清華：所以我沒辦法決定什麼時候會提，因為這個過程當中……"],["賴委員惠員：當然、當然，可是行政院也會參考財政部整體的建議。"],["阮次長清華：當然院裡面有院的想法，基本上我們是希望能夠儘量在11月底以前可以提，提出的話，當然就會有……"],["賴委員惠員：好，所以修法的方向跟範圍，你們現在也不斷地在研擬。"],["阮次長清華：對，我們積極在研擬。事實上，像昨天我們也開會就水平那部分跟地方政府進一步溝通，另外事權的部分，也透過國發會及各部會進行盤整，我們希望根據這些資料，研擬出一個公平、合理、可長可久的修正草案。"],["賴委員惠員：好，可長可久？"],["阮次長清華：對！"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我再請教你一個問題，針對346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文，會不會優先修正呢？"],["阮次長清華：立法院的事情，我在這邊真的很難回答這個問題，有可能啦！"],["賴委員惠員：你們有沒有建議呢？有沒有建議這個……"],["阮次長清華：當然就財政部的立場或者行政院的立場，我們覺得財劃法不只是計算公式的問題，我覺得最重要的是垂直或水平分配有很多不公平、合理的地方，委員對這一部分都很清楚，我也不要再重複。"],["賴委員惠員：是、是！"],["阮次長清華：卓院長也一再強調，財劃法不只是修公式，而是要全盤修正，我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力。"],["賴委員惠員：朝著全盤修正的方向？"],["阮次長清華：是、是！"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝次長。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我再請教主計長，財劃法會朝著全面修法的方式，針對一般性補助款是不是會再修一次呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：會，應該會。"],["賴委員惠員：也會再修一次？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為光是財力級距，如果它改變之後，相關的一般性補助也必須要修正，包括財力級距也都必須要做修正。"],["賴委員惠員：好，針對這個問題，因為之前有幾個委員也提到，在115年中央政府釋出了多少的統籌分配款給地方政府，非常清楚，就是8,841億嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是！"],["賴委員惠員：中央跟地方政府整體的稅收分配，你剛才也有回答另外一個委員，在早期中央是75，地方是25，像現在新的財劃法跟一般性的補助辦法，我們回到60比40，就像你們昨天跟地方政府的溝通，我看資料是提到，不管是桃園，不管是臺北、新北都非常地樂意，因為他們分到很多的錢，可是雲林跟臺東都不願意，為什麼？他們分配少了。","主計長，你來自於臺南，我想用臺南的經驗告訴你中央財政會不會失衡，政府拿到了錢，是不是可以平衡？我簡單用臺南的例子給你看，在這一次臺南分配到174億，可是其實要負擔的是253億，還不足79億，不管是它的老農津貼、農保，還有勞健保，最重要的是有8所國立學校，8所國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的經費預算，像這樣子的話，它在114年的比例還減少37億耶！你想臺南市怎麼辦呢？我想在這裡請教。"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，8所國立高中職今年是沒有減的，它是照以往的補助，所以這個要澄清。"],["賴委員惠員：對，今年不會減？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對！今年沒有減這個部分，如果要減，也必須要循序，但一般性補助和計畫型補助它是有減少，但是行政院也有說明，針對目前來講，9個縣市比去年短少的部分，中央會把它來弭平，只多不少，等於是如果按照114年度計畫的一些相關補助，我通通補給你了，所以一般你自己本身應該要做的項目，就應該要自己去做，去確定你到底要辦理什麼項目。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就是說，主計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我會補到跟114年額度相同的金額。"],["賴委員惠員：到114年沒有問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是！"],["賴委員惠員：可是到115年的話，會不會產生問題呢？你如何去……"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年會照114年度的額度去補足，譬如說，臺南市如果缺73億，比114年度少73億，那就會補73億。"],["賴委員惠員：就會把它補齊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的！"],["賴委員惠員：所以到目前為止，到115年還能有一個……"],["陳主計長淑姿：維持額度。"],["賴委員惠員：比較正常的分配方式，所以……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是，維持三項，它只增不減。"],["賴委員惠員：只增不減？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是院長親口承諾、答應的事情，這個部分，等於是都維持114年各項計畫的金額給你，但是你要不要做由地方去自主，但有很多事情是屬於中央必須引導的，例如0到6歲的計畫，所以我們把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割，之後也把它列出來，就是屬於經常性、普及性，或者是經常建設相關的經費列在一般性補助裡面。"],["賴委員惠員：我可不可以這樣子解釋，在一般性跟計畫型補助的部分，這9個分配比較少的縣市，他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它會跟去年一樣，所以我會在一般性補助裡面的財政均衡去補助。"],["賴委員惠員：那它會跟去年一樣，萬一去年沒有提出新的計畫，未來這9個縣市可能很難去執行一些新的計畫，那怎麼辦呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這9個縣市在新計畫的部分，它自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整。"],["賴委員惠員：項目去做調整？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是、是。"],["賴委員惠員：這樣子講的話，如果地方政府去年沒有提出新的計畫，在未來這兩年可能都沒有機會？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，跟委員報告，因為我們新的財劃法……"],["賴委員惠員：你說項目調整，那是舊的嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，新的財劃法已經在規劃，在這個財劃法裡面，就會把一般性的基本支出規劃在財劃法裡面，包括收入、支出，之後它如果有差短，就會透過財劃法裡面統籌分配稅來彌補，彌補之後其他所增加的財源，就是作為它本身其他項目的使用。另外，您談到的就是如果別人都成長，這9個縣市沒有成長，所以我們也要考慮有沒有平均成長的機會，我們也要考慮相關的成長，但是經費是有限的。"],["賴委員惠員：所以如果地方有認真規劃的話，中央還是會再補貼它？"],["陳主計長淑姿：考慮給它一個成長的機會。"],["賴委員惠員：好，這樣子的話，你事前的計畫引導，事後我們也希望……大家在發紅包、在撒幣，你看新竹市要多發5,000，然後桃園說它可以多發1.5萬，這樣大家情何以堪！所以如果你不用審計的態度在事後公開它在整體的施政成績的話，我們整個社會就會變成非常亂……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以中央必須要有政策的引導。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你該補貼的沒有補貼，就像你剛剛講的，窮的更窮，有錢的更有錢，以後大家都不住在南部啦！大家都往北部移，事實上是不可能，這樣子政府怎麼做到公平正義呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們希望儘量要讓政府有均衡整個臺灣，還有均衡照顧各個國民的能力。"],["賴委員惠員：好，大家加油！因為我想財劃法統籌分配真的是把大家搞得重新進入到一個新的戰國時代，我們也希望把政策引導得更好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。","接下來請李彥秀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}}