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\"start\": 605.295, \"end\": 605.495, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 605.495, \"end\": 605.695, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 605.695, \"end\": 607.635, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 607.635, \"end\": 607.935, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 607.935, \"end\": 608.055, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 608.055, \"end\": 608.155, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 608.155, \"end\": 608.275, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 608.275, \"end\": 609.135, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 609.135, \"end\": 609.235, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 609.235, \"end\": 609.375, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 609.375, \"end\": 609.496, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 609.496, \"end\": 609.736, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 609.736, \"end\": 610.256, 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\"start\": 832.593, \"end\": 832.694, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"员\", \"start\": 832.694, \"end\": 833.116, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 833.116, \"end\": 833.237, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 833.237, \"end\": 833.257, \"score\": 0.59}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,730 --> 00:00:11,998\n請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝主席有請主委請吳主委\n\n2\n00:00:16,721 --> 00:00:39,581\n主委好主委好主委我最近有針對這個形態及生理醫學學門的相關議題向國會所知想跟你請教幾個問題請問一開始所知時我有要求要提供計劃的主持人名單但為什麼一開始不敢提供計劃主持人的名字後來再一次所知才提供我請我們三個組楊處長\n\n3\n00:00:43,045 --> 00:00:51,134\n謝謝委員我是深刻處楊台鴻這個我必須很抱歉我一時疏忽我們第一次提供的時候有同仁說要小心各自小心各自後來\n\n4\n00:00:52,952 --> 00:01:19,351\n委員辦公室有再提醒我們那我們就再去確認說沒有個資的問題因為網路上都可以查得到所以我們後來就通通給委員了這個跟委員說一聲抱歉不好意思好申請國科會的計畫為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下罪隔年直接掛零這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎還是符合學門召集人的精神斷崖式的下罪要那些年輕學者怎麼辦\n\n5\n00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:32,009\n報告委員並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事我想我們的資料可能有誤還是你們的資料有誤這個應該要有待確認不要直接就說我們的資料是一定不對後續我們相關的資料我們來對一下嘛\n\n6\n00:01:35,532 --> 00:02:04,511\n好不好那我想到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣我們會後再來研討一下可以嗎但是主委之後還有時間可以再討論但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供能不能提供近6年生理醫學學門所有計劃主持人的KPI能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI就相關的這個資料我要請楊處長可以提供嗎委員這個\n\n7\n00:02:06,175 --> 00:02:21,114\n我們每一件補助的計畫學者都會交成果報告那我不曉得委員的KPI跟這成果報告的意思是不是很接近他的paper的發表數量嘛被引用的次數嘛這些東西是不是都可以把這相關的資料數據都給我們\n\n8\n00:02:22,825 --> 00:02:50,188\n事實上這些資料我們本來就有所以應該沒有問題好謝謝那另外我要講的是不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖市的下墜相關的補助甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到我必須坦白講各位我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授在跟我們提到說因為財化法所以我們現在的補助都減少了這個財化法修的話是不是影響到我們\n\n9\n00:02:51,229 --> 00:02:59,309\n我還是要講主委剛剛您所提的您的主要的回覆內容是因為財化法造成行政院在編列預算對吧\n\n10\n00:03:00,253 --> 00:03:25,945\n有所影響剛剛也有人跟你講市權下放然後呢現在整個預算會給地方我們還是要再講光教育來說就好了我自己在辦考察教育的相關的一些補助中央的補助也都直接講明啊可能明年度才化法下來以後呢因為台中市拿到262億所以中央的補助可能會從原本的五成變成兩成\n\n11\n00:03:27,239 --> 00:03:53,190\n甚至一直在討論各個學校的原本的冷氣費由中央直接要來支付的款項由地方要自己開始來支應所以我們看到不管是剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的行政院有沒有重視科技有沒有編列更多預算給你們那是行政院自己要有的態度行政院我們看到他很重視國防重視國防沒有不好\n\n12\n00:03:53,510 --> 00:04:12,265\n但是科學也很重要啊有沒有一起並行有沒有一起努力這是行政院的態度然後不要一直告訴我們才化法去影響到了整個預算的編列但是卻知口不提將所有的事權下放給地方地方要自行因應最關鍵剛剛就講到嘛\n\n13\n00:04:13,826 --> 00:04:41,516\n整個電費要求地方自己來付出的時候那相對應的行政院所編列的預算就不會再這個部分的支出就會減少所以有財化法預算下放也有支出減少總體的整預算都有提升的情況之下好單單用財化法就要把它斷定是因為補助減少是因為財化法的關係我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的主委\n\n14\n00:04:42,276 --> 00:05:05,188\n那我想另外再提到這個近年主權的AI成為全球關注的一個焦點根據史丹佛大學報告全球百大影響的一個AI模型幾乎由美國中國開發若AI逐漸成為國家基礎的一個設施其他的國家便可能受制於技術資料依賴在台灣這一場\n\n15\n00:05:06,309 --> 00:05:25,583\n全球科技主权战我认为不能够置身事外所以华硕的师董就指出2025年各国部署主权AI的关键转折点赖清德总统多次公开宣誓主权AI强调要建构具台湾特色的在地模型\n\n16\n00:05:26,894 --> 00:05:50,541\n然而目前国内的政策推动仍以硬体建设为主缺乏对资料的一个治理模型的开源人才的养成文化的保存整体的一个战略规划依据我们财团法人人工智慧科技基金会所提出的2025年台湾产业AI化调查的一个AI落地指引\n\n17\n00:05:51,704 --> 00:05:58,210\n整個資料的顯示台灣目前企業具有字眼語言以及模型能力的一個比例僅約12.5\n\n18\n00:06:00,492 --> 00:06:22,762\n我们看到代表多数的企业仍然是依赖国外的一个API模型界面若AI的一个核心技术跟我们相关的资料长期都掌握在外国的一个平台当中我国的资料安全文化表述以及产业的一个创新上都将面临挑战\n\n19\n00:06:23,522 --> 00:06:48,804\n所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中我們現在台灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的一個AI算力當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構投資恐留於硬體的堆疊有報導就指出經濟日報\n\n20\n00:06:50,359 --> 00:07:14,218\n目前全球計算的整個伺服器市場中AI伺服器佔比已經提升到28%如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進避免落後跟閒置這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題更關鍵的是人才的培育台灣的年輕工程師學生大多人在使用什麼\n\n21\n00:07:15,094 --> 00:07:37,999\nChipGPTCloud等國際平台進行練習缺乏自主模型的訓練跟整個實驗的環境這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就是沒有缺乏競爭力啊難以孕育下一個AI的一個培育他們能夠來作為設計啊所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題請問主委\n\n22\n00:07:40,700 --> 00:07:49,247\n國科會如何具體的界定主權AI的範圍在整個算力的中心的治理上國科會明確的方向是什麼\n\n23\n00:07:50,356 --> 00:08:13,246\n我们当然在主权的部分我们也是鼓励以前虽然国会我们从政府的角度来导引做了一个台德模型但是现在我们已经把这个任务已经在鼓励我们的学业学界跟产业界还有中央研究院大家一起来努力希望借助民间的力量能够快速发展\n\n24\n00:08:13,966 --> 00:08:29,441\n适合台湾应用的各种各样模型我们已经编了经费在推动了同时我们也鼓励现在塑化部也在协助鼓励我们的民间的软体的业者来做相关的应用服务\n\n25\n00:08:30,101 --> 00:08:50,212\n我們也整合了台灣民間的力量來建構算力,不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候,我們在數碼部要負責我們的自由的語料庫的建置,我們的資料交換的標準,我們鼓勵民間來投入做應用。\n\n26\n00:08:51,092 --> 00:09:09,386\n应用服务使用AI做这个应用服务这个计划也会搭配着我们现在在大南方新系股以及其他的治理的方案明年的预算我们都编进来了也希望立法院这边来支持\n\n27\n00:09:10,367 --> 00:09:29,912\n有夢最美啦那我還是希望這個不爭的事實我還是要講這大多的模型語料都是英文要不然就是簡體中文AI模型在訓練的資料當中90%都是外國語料我們要如何貪主權對不對本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術啊\n\n28\n00:09:30,922 --> 00:09:48,655\n更關乎文化主體啊國家韌性啊政府在推動AI的基礎建設的一個同時我們要思考如何讓台灣的語言價值法治能夠被AI理解反映啊讓AI不只是台灣使用的工具啊讓真正能夠有懂台灣的智慧體系啊\n\n29\n00:09:49,611 --> 00:10:11,096\n所以我們看到那些語料在點的時候都心有戚戚焉最根本的問題是主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂台灣懂中華民國還是要讓台灣去懂AI我們根本就是應該要好好想想應該是AI來懂我們\n\n30\n00:10:12,423 --> 00:10:38,068\n所以主權的AI目的是追求自主算力與模型我們不過是在追趕產業而已但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律語言價值文化那就需要一種新的思維跟方向所以請問主委國科會是否願意將文化主權納入到科技政策的核心架構讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽\n\n31\n00:10:40,353 --> 00:10:54,446\n我想更是強化國家文化主體民主韌性最重要的一個具體的一個實踐你認為呢這一點我們是同意的我們本來在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這一部分是現在是有積極在進行\n\n32\n00:10:56,411 --> 00:11:15,174\n我想那這樣子的部分上我們是有一定的具體目標那有共同的一個目標我們共同來努力那但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設還有科研使用的一個落實狀況那國科會的一個報告就有講自114年底AI的算力達到5.1\n\n33\n00:11:17,621 --> 00:11:39,267\n那118年预估要到23,并推出了相对应的台湾AI的一个平台,协助企业跟研究团队快速导入应用。那这显示在整个政府确实在布局AI的基础能量的时候,也能够反映出几个值得深思的一个现象。\n\n34\n00:11:39,887 --> 00:11:58,053\n我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的一個同時算力資源取得正逐漸有一個落差這不能夠去否認部分大型的法人產業界有能力在自建運算的一個資源但中小創新的公司呢\n\n35\n00:11:59,093 --> 00:12:25,749\n他們這些大學的研究團隊呢面臨的就是算力不足啊租用昂貴啊這些問題的困境這不只是一個硬體的問題啊涉及到資料的共享模型的開放以及行政協調的一個速度啊我們有沒有去重視我們有沒有去挖掘到這些問題在推動AI指導的一個過程當中如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位你認為會不會造成學研界看得到用不到\n\n36\n00:12:27,555 --> 00:12:33,984\n進而限制的創新研究多樣主委您怎麼看待\n\n37\n00:12:34,741 --> 00:13:00,814\n我们的确是有了解这个问题所以我们国防中心的这个算力建制依照我们跟大院提出来的这个预算里面我们逐年编列然后我刚才也提到说我们也在引导产业界的投资产业投资绝对远大于政府的投资我具体的要求国会能不能在布建这个AI算力中有多少的比例能够提供给教育机构创新团队实际使用\n\n38\n00:13:01,567 --> 00:13:21,382\n我们大部分的算力都是支持我们的学生会后相关的资料能不能也让我们知道一下好再来就是你这个台湾AI的这个平台针对不同的类型使用者比如说刚刚说的研究单位学研单位法人能够设计不同的方案去做资源降低使用的门槛\n\n39\n00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:51,169\n可以嗎可以我想這個都是具體的一個需求尤其在第三國科會是否規劃跟教育部數位發展部目前共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系讓各個各大院校能夠更平等的去取得研發的資源這個是我們所重視的我想未來AI是不可或缺的技術我們希望降低門檻擴大參與共同來努力這是我剛剛所提到困境上希望你們能夠重視的好嗎\n\n40\n00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:53,257\n谢谢谢谢会员谢谢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n730\t11998\t請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝主席有請主委請吳主委\n16721\t39581\t主委好主委好主委我最近有針對這個形態及生理醫學學門的相關議題向國會所知想跟你請教幾個問題請問一開始所知時我有要求要提供計劃的主持人名單但為什麼一開始不敢提供計劃主持人的名字後來再一次所知才提供我請我們三個組楊處長\n43045\t51134\t謝謝委員 我是深刻處楊台鴻這個我必須很抱歉 我一時疏忽我們第一次提供的時候有同仁說要小心各自 小心各自後來\n52952\t79351\t委員辦公室有再提醒我們那我們就再去確認說沒有個資的問題因為網路上都可以查得到所以我們後來就通通給委員了這個跟委員說一聲抱歉 不好意思好 申請國科會的計畫為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下罪隔年直接掛零這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎還是符合學門召集人的精神斷崖式的下罪要那些年輕學者怎麼辦\n80319\t92009\t報告委員並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事我想我們的資料可能有誤還是你們的資料有誤這個應該要有待確認不要直接就說我們的資料是一定不對後續我們相關的資料我們來對一下嘛\n95532\t124511\t好不好那我想到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣我們會後再來研討一下可以嗎但是主委之後還有時間可以再討論但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供能不能提供近6年生理醫學學門所有計劃主持人的KPI能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI就相關的這個資料我要請楊處長可以提供嗎委員這個\n126175\t141114\t我們每一件補助的計畫學者都會交成果報告那我不曉得委員的KPI跟這成果報告的意思是不是很接近他的paper的發表數量嘛被引用的次數嘛這些東西是不是都可以把這相關的資料數據都給我們\n142825\t170188\t事實上這些資料我們本來就有所以應該沒有問題好 謝謝那另外我要講的是不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖市的下墜相關的補助甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到我必須坦白講 各位我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授在跟我們提到說因為財化法所以我們現在的補助都減少了這個財化法修的話是不是影響到我們\n171229\t179309\t我還是要講 主委剛剛您所提的您的主要的回覆內容是因為財化法造成行政院在編列預算 對吧\n180253\t205945\t有所影響剛剛也有人跟你講市權下放然後呢現在整個預算會給地方我們還是要再講光教育來說就好了我自己在辦考察教育的相關的一些補助中央的補助也都直接講明啊可能明年度才化法下來以後呢因為台中市拿到262億所以中央的補助可能會從原本的五成變成兩成\n207239\t233190\t甚至一直在討論各個學校的原本的冷氣費由中央直接要來支付的款項由地方要自己開始來支應所以我們看到不管是剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的行政院有沒有重視科技有沒有編列更多預算給你們那是行政院自己要有的態度行政院我們看到他很重視國防重視國防沒有不好\n233510\t252265\t但是科學也很重要啊有沒有一起並行有沒有一起努力這是行政院的態度然後不要一直告訴我們才化法去影響到了整個預算的編列但是卻知口不提將所有的事權下放給地方地方要自行因應最關鍵剛剛就講到嘛\n253826\t281516\t整個電費要求地方自己來付出的時候那相對應的行政院所編列的預算就不會再這個部分的支出就會減少所以有財化法預算下放也有支出減少總體的整預算都有提升的情況之下好 單單用財化法就要把它斷定是因為補助減少是因為財化法的關係我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的 主委\n282276\t305188\t那我想另外再提到這個近年主權的AI成為全球關注的一個焦點根據史丹佛大學報告全球百大影響的一個AI模型幾乎由美國中國開發若AI逐漸成為國家基礎的一個設施其他的國家便可能受制於技術資料依賴在台灣這一場\n306309\t325583\t全球科技主权战我认为不能够置身事外所以华硕的师董就指出2025年各国部署主权AI的关键转折点赖清德总统多次公开宣誓主权AI强调要建构具台湾特色的在地模型\n326894\t350541\t然而目前国内的政策推动仍以硬体建设为主缺乏对资料的一个治理模型的开源人才的养成文化的保存整体的一个战略规划依据我们财团法人人工智慧科技基金会所提出的2025年台湾产业AI化调查的一个AI落地指引\n351704\t358210\t整個資料的顯示台灣目前企業具有字眼語言以及模型能力的一個比例僅約12.5\n360492\t382762\t我们看到代表多数的企业仍然是依赖国外的一个API模型界面若AI的一个核心技术跟我们相关的资料长期都掌握在外国的一个平台当中我国的资料安全文化表述以及产业的一个创新上都将面临挑战\n383522\t408804\t所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中我們現在台灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的一個AI算力當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構投資恐留於硬體的堆疊有報導就指出經濟日報\n410359\t434218\t目前全球計算的整個伺服器市場中AI伺服器佔比已經提升到28%如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進避免落後跟閒置這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題更關鍵的是人才的培育台灣的年輕工程師學生大多人在使用什麼\n435094\t457999\tChipGPTCloud等國際平台進行練習缺乏自主模型的訓練跟整個實驗的環境這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就是沒有缺乏競爭力啊難以孕育下一個AI的一個培育他們能夠來作為設計啊所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題請問主委\n460700\t469247\t國科會如何具體的界定主權AI的範圍在整個算力的中心的治理上國科會明確的方向是什麼\n470356\t493246\t我们当然在主权的部分我们也是鼓励以前虽然国会我们从政府的角度来导引做了一个台德模型但是现在我们已经把这个任务已经在鼓励我们的学业学界跟产业界还有中央研究院大家一起来努力希望借助民间的力量能够快速发展\n493966\t509441\t适合台湾应用的各种各样模型我们已经编了经费在推动了同时我们也鼓励现在塑化部也在协助鼓励我们的民间的软体的业者来做相关的应用服务\n510101\t530212\t我們也整合了台灣民間的力量來建構算力,不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候,我們在數碼部要負責我們的自由的語料庫的建置,我們的資料交換的標準,我們鼓勵民間來投入做應用。\n531092\t549386\t应用服务使用AI做这个应用服务这个计划也会搭配着我们现在在大南方新系股以及其他的治理的方案明年的预算我们都编进来了也希望立法院这边来支持\n550367\t569912\t有夢最美啦那我還是希望這個不爭的事實我還是要講這大多的模型語料都是英文要不然就是簡體中文AI模型在訓練的資料當中90%都是外國語料我們要如何貪主權對不對本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術啊\n570922\t588655\t更關乎文化主體啊國家韌性啊政府在推動AI的基礎建設的一個同時我們要思考如何讓台灣的語言價值法治能夠被AI理解反映啊讓AI不只是台灣使用的工具啊讓真正能夠有懂台灣的智慧體系啊\n589611\t611096\t所以我們看到那些語料在點的時候都心有戚戚焉最根本的問題是主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂台灣懂中華民國還是要讓台灣去懂AI我們根本就是應該要好好想想應該是AI來懂我們\n612423\t638068\t所以主權的AI目的是追求自主算力與模型我們不過是在追趕產業而已但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律語言價值文化那就需要一種新的思維跟方向所以請問主委國科會是否願意將文化主權納入到科技政策的核心架構讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽\n640353\t654446\t我想更是強化國家文化主體民主韌性最重要的一個具體的一個實踐你認為呢這一點我們是同意的我們本來在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這一部分是現在是有積極在進行\n656411\t675174\t我想那這樣子的部分上我們是有一定的具體目標那有共同的一個目標我們共同來努力那但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設還有科研使用的一個落實狀況那國科會的一個報告就有講自114年底AI的算力達到5.1\n677621\t699267\t那118年预估要到23,并推出了相对应的台湾AI的一个平台,协助企业跟研究团队快速导入应用。那这显示在整个政府确实在布局AI的基础能量的时候,也能够反映出几个值得深思的一个现象。\n699887\t718053\t我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的一個同時算力資源取得正逐漸有一個落差這不能夠去否認部分大型的法人產業界有能力在自建運算的一個資源但中小創新的公司呢\n719093\t745749\t他們這些大學的研究團隊呢面臨的就是算力不足啊租用昂貴啊這些問題的困境這不只是一個硬體的問題啊涉及到資料的共享模型的開放以及行政協調的一個速度啊我們有沒有去重視我們有沒有去挖掘到這些問題在推動AI指導的一個過程當中如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位你認為會不會造成學研界看得到用不到\n747555\t753984\t進而限制的創新研究多樣主委您怎麼看待\n754741\t780814\t我们的确是有了解这个问题所以我们国防中心的这个算力建制依照我们跟大院提出来的这个预算里面我们逐年编列然后我刚才也提到说我们也在引导产业界的投资产业投资绝对远大于政府的投资我具体的要求国会能不能在布建这个AI算力中有多少的比例能够提供给教育机构创新团队实际使用\n781567\t801382\t我们大部分的算力都是支持我们的学生会后相关的资料能不能也让我们知道一下好再来就是你这个台湾AI的这个平台针对不同的类型使用者比如说刚刚说的研究单位学研单位法人能够设计不同的方案去做资源降低使用的门槛\n803120\t831169\t可以嗎可以我想這個都是具體的一個需求尤其在第三國科會是否規劃跟教育部數位發展部目前共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系讓各個各大院校能夠更平等的去取得研發的資源這個是我們所重視的我想未來AI是不可或缺的技術我們希望降低門檻擴大參與共同來努力這是我剛剛所提到困境上希望你們能夠重視的好嗎\n831990\t833257\t谢谢谢谢会员谢谢\n","txt":"請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝主席有請主委請吳主委\n主委好主委好主委我最近有針對這個形態及生理醫學學門的相關議題向國會所知想跟你請教幾個問題請問一開始所知時我有要求要提供計劃的主持人名單但為什麼一開始不敢提供計劃主持人的名字後來再一次所知才提供我請我們三個組楊處長\n謝謝委員 我是深刻處楊台鴻這個我必須很抱歉 我一時疏忽我們第一次提供的時候有同仁說要小心各自 小心各自後來\n委員辦公室有再提醒我們那我們就再去確認說沒有個資的問題因為網路上都可以查得到所以我們後來就通通給委員了這個跟委員說一聲抱歉 不好意思好 申請國科會的計畫為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下罪隔年直接掛零這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎還是符合學門召集人的精神斷崖式的下罪要那些年輕學者怎麼辦\n報告委員並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事我想我們的資料可能有誤還是你們的資料有誤這個應該要有待確認不要直接就說我們的資料是一定不對後續我們相關的資料我們來對一下嘛\n好不好那我想到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣我們會後再來研討一下可以嗎但是主委之後還有時間可以再討論但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供能不能提供近6年生理醫學學門所有計劃主持人的KPI能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI就相關的這個資料我要請楊處長可以提供嗎委員這個\n我們每一件補助的計畫學者都會交成果報告那我不曉得委員的KPI跟這成果報告的意思是不是很接近他的paper的發表數量嘛被引用的次數嘛這些東西是不是都可以把這相關的資料數據都給我們\n事實上這些資料我們本來就有所以應該沒有問題好 謝謝那另外我要講的是不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖市的下墜相關的補助甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到我必須坦白講 各位我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授在跟我們提到說因為財化法所以我們現在的補助都減少了這個財化法修的話是不是影響到我們\n我還是要講 主委剛剛您所提的您的主要的回覆內容是因為財化法造成行政院在編列預算 對吧\n有所影響剛剛也有人跟你講市權下放然後呢現在整個預算會給地方我們還是要再講光教育來說就好了我自己在辦考察教育的相關的一些補助中央的補助也都直接講明啊可能明年度才化法下來以後呢因為台中市拿到262億所以中央的補助可能會從原本的五成變成兩成\n甚至一直在討論各個學校的原本的冷氣費由中央直接要來支付的款項由地方要自己開始來支應所以我們看到不管是剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的行政院有沒有重視科技有沒有編列更多預算給你們那是行政院自己要有的態度行政院我們看到他很重視國防重視國防沒有不好\n但是科學也很重要啊有沒有一起並行有沒有一起努力這是行政院的態度然後不要一直告訴我們才化法去影響到了整個預算的編列但是卻知口不提將所有的事權下放給地方地方要自行因應最關鍵剛剛就講到嘛\n整個電費要求地方自己來付出的時候那相對應的行政院所編列的預算就不會再這個部分的支出就會減少所以有財化法預算下放也有支出減少總體的整預算都有提升的情況之下好 單單用財化法就要把它斷定是因為補助減少是因為財化法的關係我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的 主委\n那我想另外再提到這個近年主權的AI成為全球關注的一個焦點根據史丹佛大學報告全球百大影響的一個AI模型幾乎由美國中國開發若AI逐漸成為國家基礎的一個設施其他的國家便可能受制於技術資料依賴在台灣這一場\n全球科技主权战我认为不能够置身事外所以华硕的师董就指出2025年各国部署主权AI的关键转折点赖清德总统多次公开宣誓主权AI强调要建构具台湾特色的在地模型\n然而目前国内的政策推动仍以硬体建设为主缺乏对资料的一个治理模型的开源人才的养成文化的保存整体的一个战略规划依据我们财团法人人工智慧科技基金会所提出的2025年台湾产业AI化调查的一个AI落地指引\n整個資料的顯示台灣目前企業具有字眼語言以及模型能力的一個比例僅約12.5\n我们看到代表多数的企业仍然是依赖国外的一个API模型界面若AI的一个核心技术跟我们相关的资料长期都掌握在外国的一个平台当中我国的资料安全文化表述以及产业的一个创新上都将面临挑战\n所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中我們現在台灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的一個AI算力當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構投資恐留於硬體的堆疊有報導就指出經濟日報\n目前全球計算的整個伺服器市場中AI伺服器佔比已經提升到28%如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進避免落後跟閒置這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題更關鍵的是人才的培育台灣的年輕工程師學生大多人在使用什麼\nChipGPTCloud等國際平台進行練習缺乏自主模型的訓練跟整個實驗的環境這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就是沒有缺乏競爭力啊難以孕育下一個AI的一個培育他們能夠來作為設計啊所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題請問主委\n國科會如何具體的界定主權AI的範圍在整個算力的中心的治理上國科會明確的方向是什麼\n我们当然在主权的部分我们也是鼓励以前虽然国会我们从政府的角度来导引做了一个台德模型但是现在我们已经把这个任务已经在鼓励我们的学业学界跟产业界还有中央研究院大家一起来努力希望借助民间的力量能够快速发展\n适合台湾应用的各种各样模型我们已经编了经费在推动了同时我们也鼓励现在塑化部也在协助鼓励我们的民间的软体的业者来做相关的应用服务\n我們也整合了台灣民間的力量來建構算力,不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候,我們在數碼部要負責我們的自由的語料庫的建置,我們的資料交換的標準,我們鼓勵民間來投入做應用。\n应用服务使用AI做这个应用服务这个计划也会搭配着我们现在在大南方新系股以及其他的治理的方案明年的预算我们都编进来了也希望立法院这边来支持\n有夢最美啦那我還是希望這個不爭的事實我還是要講這大多的模型語料都是英文要不然就是簡體中文AI模型在訓練的資料當中90%都是外國語料我們要如何貪主權對不對本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術啊\n更關乎文化主體啊國家韌性啊政府在推動AI的基礎建設的一個同時我們要思考如何讓台灣的語言價值法治能夠被AI理解反映啊讓AI不只是台灣使用的工具啊讓真正能夠有懂台灣的智慧體系啊\n所以我們看到那些語料在點的時候都心有戚戚焉最根本的問題是主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂台灣懂中華民國還是要讓台灣去懂AI我們根本就是應該要好好想想應該是AI來懂我們\n所以主權的AI目的是追求自主算力與模型我們不過是在追趕產業而已但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律語言價值文化那就需要一種新的思維跟方向所以請問主委國科會是否願意將文化主權納入到科技政策的核心架構讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽\n我想更是強化國家文化主體民主韌性最重要的一個具體的一個實踐你認為呢這一點我們是同意的我們本來在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這一部分是現在是有積極在進行\n我想那這樣子的部分上我們是有一定的具體目標那有共同的一個目標我們共同來努力那但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設還有科研使用的一個落實狀況那國科會的一個報告就有講自114年底AI的算力達到5.1\n那118年预估要到23,并推出了相对应的台湾AI的一个平台,协助企业跟研究团队快速导入应用。那这显示在整个政府确实在布局AI的基础能量的时候,也能够反映出几个值得深思的一个现象。\n我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的一個同時算力資源取得正逐漸有一個落差這不能夠去否認部分大型的法人產業界有能力在自建運算的一個資源但中小創新的公司呢\n他們這些大學的研究團隊呢面臨的就是算力不足啊租用昂貴啊這些問題的困境這不只是一個硬體的問題啊涉及到資料的共享模型的開放以及行政協調的一個速度啊我們有沒有去重視我們有沒有去挖掘到這些問題在推動AI指導的一個過程當中如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位你認為會不會造成學研界看得到用不到\n進而限制的創新研究多樣主委您怎麼看待\n我们的确是有了解这个问题所以我们国防中心的这个算力建制依照我们跟大院提出来的这个预算里面我们逐年编列然后我刚才也提到说我们也在引导产业界的投资产业投资绝对远大于政府的投资我具体的要求国会能不能在布建这个AI算力中有多少的比例能够提供给教育机构创新团队实际使用\n我们大部分的算力都是支持我们的学生会后相关的资料能不能也让我们知道一下好再来就是你这个台湾AI的这个平台针对不同的类型使用者比如说刚刚说的研究单位学研单位法人能够设计不同的方案去做资源降低使用的门槛\n可以嗎可以我想這個都是具體的一個需求尤其在第三國科會是否規劃跟教育部數位發展部目前共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系讓各個各大院校能夠更平等的去取得研發的資源這個是我們所重視的我想未來AI是不可或缺的技術我們希望降低門檻擴大參與共同來努力這是我剛剛所提到困境上希望你們能夠重視的好嗎\n谢谢谢谢会员谢谢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.730 --> 00:11.998\n請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝主席有請主委請吳主委\n\n00:16.721 --> 00:39.581\n主委好主委好主委我最近有針對這個形態及生理醫學學門的相關議題向國會所知想跟你請教幾個問題請問一開始所知時我有要求要提供計劃的主持人名單但為什麼一開始不敢提供計劃主持人的名字後來再一次所知才提供我請我們三個組楊處長\n\n00:43.045 --> 00:51.134\n謝謝委員我是深刻處楊台鴻這個我必須很抱歉我一時疏忽我們第一次提供的時候有同仁說要小心各自小心各自後來\n\n00:52.952 --> 01:19.351\n委員辦公室有再提醒我們那我們就再去確認說沒有個資的問題因為網路上都可以查得到所以我們後來就通通給委員了這個跟委員說一聲抱歉不好意思好申請國科會的計畫為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下罪隔年直接掛零這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎還是符合學門召集人的精神斷崖式的下罪要那些年輕學者怎麼辦\n\n01:20.319 --> 01:32.009\n報告委員並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事我想我們的資料可能有誤還是你們的資料有誤這個應該要有待確認不要直接就說我們的資料是一定不對後續我們相關的資料我們來對一下嘛\n\n01:35.532 --> 02:04.511\n好不好那我想到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣我們會後再來研討一下可以嗎但是主委之後還有時間可以再討論但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供能不能提供近6年生理醫學學門所有計劃主持人的KPI能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI就相關的這個資料我要請楊處長可以提供嗎委員這個\n\n02:06.175 --> 02:21.114\n我們每一件補助的計畫學者都會交成果報告那我不曉得委員的KPI跟這成果報告的意思是不是很接近他的paper的發表數量嘛被引用的次數嘛這些東西是不是都可以把這相關的資料數據都給我們\n\n02:22.825 --> 02:50.188\n事實上這些資料我們本來就有所以應該沒有問題好謝謝那另外我要講的是不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖市的下墜相關的補助甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到我必須坦白講各位我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授在跟我們提到說因為財化法所以我們現在的補助都減少了這個財化法修的話是不是影響到我們\n\n02:51.229 --> 02:59.309\n我還是要講主委剛剛您所提的您的主要的回覆內容是因為財化法造成行政院在編列預算對吧\n\n03:00.253 --> 03:25.945\n有所影響剛剛也有人跟你講市權下放然後呢現在整個預算會給地方我們還是要再講光教育來說就好了我自己在辦考察教育的相關的一些補助中央的補助也都直接講明啊可能明年度才化法下來以後呢因為台中市拿到262億所以中央的補助可能會從原本的五成變成兩成\n\n03:27.239 --> 03:53.190\n甚至一直在討論各個學校的原本的冷氣費由中央直接要來支付的款項由地方要自己開始來支應所以我們看到不管是剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的行政院有沒有重視科技有沒有編列更多預算給你們那是行政院自己要有的態度行政院我們看到他很重視國防重視國防沒有不好\n\n03:53.510 --> 04:12.265\n但是科學也很重要啊有沒有一起並行有沒有一起努力這是行政院的態度然後不要一直告訴我們才化法去影響到了整個預算的編列但是卻知口不提將所有的事權下放給地方地方要自行因應最關鍵剛剛就講到嘛\n\n04:13.826 --> 04:41.516\n整個電費要求地方自己來付出的時候那相對應的行政院所編列的預算就不會再這個部分的支出就會減少所以有財化法預算下放也有支出減少總體的整預算都有提升的情況之下好單單用財化法就要把它斷定是因為補助減少是因為財化法的關係我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的主委\n\n04:42.276 --> 05:05.188\n那我想另外再提到這個近年主權的AI成為全球關注的一個焦點根據史丹佛大學報告全球百大影響的一個AI模型幾乎由美國中國開發若AI逐漸成為國家基礎的一個設施其他的國家便可能受制於技術資料依賴在台灣這一場\n\n05:06.309 --> 05:25.583\n全球科技主权战我认为不能够置身事外所以华硕的师董就指出2025年各国部署主权AI的关键转折点赖清德总统多次公开宣誓主权AI强调要建构具台湾特色的在地模型\n\n05:26.894 --> 05:50.541\n然而目前国内的政策推动仍以硬体建设为主缺乏对资料的一个治理模型的开源人才的养成文化的保存整体的一个战略规划依据我们财团法人人工智慧科技基金会所提出的2025年台湾产业AI化调查的一个AI落地指引\n\n05:51.704 --> 05:58.210\n整個資料的顯示台灣目前企業具有字眼語言以及模型能力的一個比例僅約12.5\n\n06:00.492 --> 06:22.762\n我们看到代表多数的企业仍然是依赖国外的一个API模型界面若AI的一个核心技术跟我们相关的资料长期都掌握在外国的一个平台当中我国的资料安全文化表述以及产业的一个创新上都将面临挑战\n\n06:23.522 --> 06:48.804\n所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中我們現在台灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的一個AI算力當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構投資恐留於硬體的堆疊有報導就指出經濟日報\n\n06:50.359 --> 07:14.218\n目前全球計算的整個伺服器市場中AI伺服器佔比已經提升到28%如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進避免落後跟閒置這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題更關鍵的是人才的培育台灣的年輕工程師學生大多人在使用什麼\n\n07:15.094 --> 07:37.999\nChipGPTCloud等國際平台進行練習缺乏自主模型的訓練跟整個實驗的環境這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就是沒有缺乏競爭力啊難以孕育下一個AI的一個培育他們能夠來作為設計啊所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題請問主委\n\n07:40.700 --> 07:49.247\n國科會如何具體的界定主權AI的範圍在整個算力的中心的治理上國科會明確的方向是什麼\n\n07:50.356 --> 08:13.246\n我们当然在主权的部分我们也是鼓励以前虽然国会我们从政府的角度来导引做了一个台德模型但是现在我们已经把这个任务已经在鼓励我们的学业学界跟产业界还有中央研究院大家一起来努力希望借助民间的力量能够快速发展\n\n08:13.966 --> 08:29.441\n适合台湾应用的各种各样模型我们已经编了经费在推动了同时我们也鼓励现在塑化部也在协助鼓励我们的民间的软体的业者来做相关的应用服务\n\n08:30.101 --> 08:50.212\n我們也整合了台灣民間的力量來建構算力,不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候,我們在數碼部要負責我們的自由的語料庫的建置,我們的資料交換的標準,我們鼓勵民間來投入做應用。\n\n08:51.092 --> 09:09.386\n应用服务使用AI做这个应用服务这个计划也会搭配着我们现在在大南方新系股以及其他的治理的方案明年的预算我们都编进来了也希望立法院这边来支持\n\n09:10.367 --> 09:29.912\n有夢最美啦那我還是希望這個不爭的事實我還是要講這大多的模型語料都是英文要不然就是簡體中文AI模型在訓練的資料當中90%都是外國語料我們要如何貪主權對不對本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術啊\n\n09:30.922 --> 09:48.655\n更關乎文化主體啊國家韌性啊政府在推動AI的基礎建設的一個同時我們要思考如何讓台灣的語言價值法治能夠被AI理解反映啊讓AI不只是台灣使用的工具啊讓真正能夠有懂台灣的智慧體系啊\n\n09:49.611 --> 10:11.096\n所以我們看到那些語料在點的時候都心有戚戚焉最根本的問題是主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂台灣懂中華民國還是要讓台灣去懂AI我們根本就是應該要好好想想應該是AI來懂我們\n\n10:12.423 --> 10:38.068\n所以主權的AI目的是追求自主算力與模型我們不過是在追趕產業而已但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律語言價值文化那就需要一種新的思維跟方向所以請問主委國科會是否願意將文化主權納入到科技政策的核心架構讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽\n\n10:40.353 --> 10:54.446\n我想更是強化國家文化主體民主韌性最重要的一個具體的一個實踐你認為呢這一點我們是同意的我們本來在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這一部分是現在是有積極在進行\n\n10:56.411 --> 11:15.174\n我想那這樣子的部分上我們是有一定的具體目標那有共同的一個目標我們共同來努力那但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設還有科研使用的一個落實狀況那國科會的一個報告就有講自114年底AI的算力達到5.1\n\n11:17.621 --> 11:39.267\n那118年预估要到23,并推出了相对应的台湾AI的一个平台,协助企业跟研究团队快速导入应用。那这显示在整个政府确实在布局AI的基础能量的时候,也能够反映出几个值得深思的一个现象。\n\n11:39.887 --> 11:58.053\n我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的一個同時算力資源取得正逐漸有一個落差這不能夠去否認部分大型的法人產業界有能力在自建運算的一個資源但中小創新的公司呢\n\n11:59.093 --> 12:25.749\n他們這些大學的研究團隊呢面臨的就是算力不足啊租用昂貴啊這些問題的困境這不只是一個硬體的問題啊涉及到資料的共享模型的開放以及行政協調的一個速度啊我們有沒有去重視我們有沒有去挖掘到這些問題在推動AI指導的一個過程當中如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位你認為會不會造成學研界看得到用不到\n\n12:27.555 --> 12:33.984\n進而限制的創新研究多樣主委您怎麼看待\n\n12:34.741 --> 13:00.814\n我们的确是有了解这个问题所以我们国防中心的这个算力建制依照我们跟大院提出来的这个预算里面我们逐年编列然后我刚才也提到说我们也在引导产业界的投资产业投资绝对远大于政府的投资我具体的要求国会能不能在布建这个AI算力中有多少的比例能够提供给教育机构创新团队实际使用\n\n13:01.567 --> 13:21.382\n我们大部分的算力都是支持我们的学生会后相关的资料能不能也让我们知道一下好再来就是你这个台湾AI的这个平台针对不同的类型使用者比如说刚刚说的研究单位学研单位法人能够设计不同的方案去做资源降低使用的门槛\n\n13:23.120 --> 13:51.169\n可以嗎可以我想這個都是具體的一個需求尤其在第三國科會是否規劃跟教育部數位發展部目前共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系讓各個各大院校能夠更平等的去取得研發的資源這個是我們所重視的我想未來AI是不可或缺的技術我們希望降低門檻擴大參與共同來努力這是我剛剛所提到困境上希望你們能夠重視的好嗎\n\n13:51.990 --> 13:53.257\n谢谢谢谢会员谢谢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.73,"end":11.998,"text":"請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝主席有請主委請吳主委"},{"start":16.721,"end":39.581,"text":"主委好主委好主委我最近有針對這個形態及生理醫學學門的相關議題向國會所知想跟你請教幾個問題請問一開始所知時我有要求要提供計劃的主持人名單但為什麼一開始不敢提供計劃主持人的名字後來再一次所知才提供我請我們三個組楊處長"},{"start":43.045,"end":51.134,"text":"謝謝委員 我是深刻處楊台鴻這個我必須很抱歉 我一時疏忽我們第一次提供的時候有同仁說要小心各自 小心各自後來"},{"start":52.952,"end":79.351,"text":"委員辦公室有再提醒我們那我們就再去確認說沒有個資的問題因為網路上都可以查得到所以我們後來就通通給委員了這個跟委員說一聲抱歉 不好意思好 申請國科會的計畫為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下罪隔年直接掛零這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎還是符合學門召集人的精神斷崖式的下罪要那些年輕學者怎麼辦"},{"start":80.319,"end":92.009,"text":"報告委員並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事我想我們的資料可能有誤還是你們的資料有誤這個應該要有待確認不要直接就說我們的資料是一定不對後續我們相關的資料我們來對一下嘛"},{"start":95.532,"end":124.511,"text":"好不好那我想到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣我們會後再來研討一下可以嗎但是主委之後還有時間可以再討論但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供能不能提供近6年生理醫學學門所有計劃主持人的KPI能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI就相關的這個資料我要請楊處長可以提供嗎委員這個"},{"start":126.175,"end":141.114,"text":"我們每一件補助的計畫學者都會交成果報告那我不曉得委員的KPI跟這成果報告的意思是不是很接近他的paper的發表數量嘛被引用的次數嘛這些東西是不是都可以把這相關的資料數據都給我們"},{"start":142.825,"end":170.188,"text":"事實上這些資料我們本來就有所以應該沒有問題好 謝謝那另外我要講的是不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖市的下墜相關的補助甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到我必須坦白講 各位我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授在跟我們提到說因為財化法所以我們現在的補助都減少了這個財化法修的話是不是影響到我們"},{"start":171.229,"end":179.309,"text":"我還是要講 主委剛剛您所提的您的主要的回覆內容是因為財化法造成行政院在編列預算 對吧"},{"start":180.253,"end":205.945,"text":"有所影響剛剛也有人跟你講市權下放然後呢現在整個預算會給地方我們還是要再講光教育來說就好了我自己在辦考察教育的相關的一些補助中央的補助也都直接講明啊可能明年度才化法下來以後呢因為台中市拿到262億所以中央的補助可能會從原本的五成變成兩成"},{"start":207.239,"end":233.19,"text":"甚至一直在討論各個學校的原本的冷氣費由中央直接要來支付的款項由地方要自己開始來支應所以我們看到不管是剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的行政院有沒有重視科技有沒有編列更多預算給你們那是行政院自己要有的態度行政院我們看到他很重視國防重視國防沒有不好"},{"start":233.51,"end":252.265,"text":"但是科學也很重要啊有沒有一起並行有沒有一起努力這是行政院的態度然後不要一直告訴我們才化法去影響到了整個預算的編列但是卻知口不提將所有的事權下放給地方地方要自行因應最關鍵剛剛就講到嘛"},{"start":253.826,"end":281.516,"text":"整個電費要求地方自己來付出的時候那相對應的行政院所編列的預算就不會再這個部分的支出就會減少所以有財化法預算下放也有支出減少總體的整預算都有提升的情況之下好 單單用財化法就要把它斷定是因為補助減少是因為財化法的關係我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的 主委"},{"start":282.276,"end":305.188,"text":"那我想另外再提到這個近年主權的AI成為全球關注的一個焦點根據史丹佛大學報告全球百大影響的一個AI模型幾乎由美國中國開發若AI逐漸成為國家基礎的一個設施其他的國家便可能受制於技術資料依賴在台灣這一場"},{"start":306.309,"end":325.583,"text":"全球科技主权战我认为不能够置身事外所以华硕的师董就指出2025年各国部署主权AI的关键转折点赖清德总统多次公开宣誓主权AI强调要建构具台湾特色的在地模型"},{"start":326.894,"end":350.541,"text":"然而目前国内的政策推动仍以硬体建设为主缺乏对资料的一个治理模型的开源人才的养成文化的保存整体的一个战略规划依据我们财团法人人工智慧科技基金会所提出的2025年台湾产业AI化调查的一个AI落地指引"},{"start":351.704,"end":358.21,"text":"整個資料的顯示台灣目前企業具有字眼語言以及模型能力的一個比例僅約12.5"},{"start":360.492,"end":382.762,"text":"我们看到代表多数的企业仍然是依赖国外的一个API模型界面若AI的一个核心技术跟我们相关的资料长期都掌握在外国的一个平台当中我国的资料安全文化表述以及产业的一个创新上都将面临挑战"},{"start":383.522,"end":408.804,"text":"所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中我們現在台灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的一個AI算力當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構投資恐留於硬體的堆疊有報導就指出經濟日報"},{"start":410.359,"end":434.218,"text":"目前全球計算的整個伺服器市場中AI伺服器佔比已經提升到28%如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進避免落後跟閒置這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題更關鍵的是人才的培育台灣的年輕工程師學生大多人在使用什麼"},{"start":435.094,"end":457.999,"text":"ChipGPTCloud等國際平台進行練習缺乏自主模型的訓練跟整個實驗的環境這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就是沒有缺乏競爭力啊難以孕育下一個AI的一個培育他們能夠來作為設計啊所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題請問主委"},{"start":460.7,"end":469.247,"text":"國科會如何具體的界定主權AI的範圍在整個算力的中心的治理上國科會明確的方向是什麼"},{"start":470.356,"end":493.246,"text":"我们当然在主权的部分我们也是鼓励以前虽然国会我们从政府的角度来导引做了一个台德模型但是现在我们已经把这个任务已经在鼓励我们的学业学界跟产业界还有中央研究院大家一起来努力希望借助民间的力量能够快速发展"},{"start":493.966,"end":509.441,"text":"适合台湾应用的各种各样模型我们已经编了经费在推动了同时我们也鼓励现在塑化部也在协助鼓励我们的民间的软体的业者来做相关的应用服务"},{"start":510.101,"end":530.212,"text":"我們也整合了台灣民間的力量來建構算力,不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候,我們在數碼部要負責我們的自由的語料庫的建置,我們的資料交換的標準,我們鼓勵民間來投入做應用。"},{"start":531.092,"end":549.386,"text":"应用服务使用AI做这个应用服务这个计划也会搭配着我们现在在大南方新系股以及其他的治理的方案明年的预算我们都编进来了也希望立法院这边来支持"},{"start":550.367,"end":569.912,"text":"有夢最美啦那我還是希望這個不爭的事實我還是要講這大多的模型語料都是英文要不然就是簡體中文AI模型在訓練的資料當中90%都是外國語料我們要如何貪主權對不對本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術啊"},{"start":570.922,"end":588.655,"text":"更關乎文化主體啊國家韌性啊政府在推動AI的基礎建設的一個同時我們要思考如何讓台灣的語言價值法治能夠被AI理解反映啊讓AI不只是台灣使用的工具啊讓真正能夠有懂台灣的智慧體系啊"},{"start":589.611,"end":611.096,"text":"所以我們看到那些語料在點的時候都心有戚戚焉最根本的問題是主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂台灣懂中華民國還是要讓台灣去懂AI我們根本就是應該要好好想想應該是AI來懂我們"},{"start":612.423,"end":638.068,"text":"所以主權的AI目的是追求自主算力與模型我們不過是在追趕產業而已但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律語言價值文化那就需要一種新的思維跟方向所以請問主委國科會是否願意將文化主權納入到科技政策的核心架構讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽"},{"start":640.353,"end":654.446,"text":"我想更是強化國家文化主體民主韌性最重要的一個具體的一個實踐你認為呢這一點我們是同意的我們本來在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這一部分是現在是有積極在進行"},{"start":656.411,"end":675.174,"text":"我想那這樣子的部分上我們是有一定的具體目標那有共同的一個目標我們共同來努力那但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設還有科研使用的一個落實狀況那國科會的一個報告就有講自114年底AI的算力達到5.1"},{"start":677.621,"end":699.267,"text":"那118年预估要到23,并推出了相对应的台湾AI的一个平台,协助企业跟研究团队快速导入应用。那这显示在整个政府确实在布局AI的基础能量的时候,也能够反映出几个值得深思的一个现象。"},{"start":699.887,"end":718.053,"text":"我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的一個同時算力資源取得正逐漸有一個落差這不能夠去否認部分大型的法人產業界有能力在自建運算的一個資源但中小創新的公司呢"},{"start":719.093,"end":745.749,"text":"他們這些大學的研究團隊呢面臨的就是算力不足啊租用昂貴啊這些問題的困境這不只是一個硬體的問題啊涉及到資料的共享模型的開放以及行政協調的一個速度啊我們有沒有去重視我們有沒有去挖掘到這些問題在推動AI指導的一個過程當中如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位你認為會不會造成學研界看得到用不到"},{"start":747.555,"end":753.984,"text":"進而限制的創新研究多樣主委您怎麼看待"},{"start":754.741,"end":780.814,"text":"我们的确是有了解这个问题所以我们国防中心的这个算力建制依照我们跟大院提出来的这个预算里面我们逐年编列然后我刚才也提到说我们也在引导产业界的投资产业投资绝对远大于政府的投资我具体的要求国会能不能在布建这个AI算力中有多少的比例能够提供给教育机构创新团队实际使用"},{"start":781.567,"end":801.382,"text":"我们大部分的算力都是支持我们的学生会后相关的资料能不能也让我们知道一下好再来就是你这个台湾AI的这个平台针对不同的类型使用者比如说刚刚说的研究单位学研单位法人能够设计不同的方案去做资源降低使用的门槛"},{"start":803.12,"end":831.169,"text":"可以嗎可以我想這個都是具體的一個需求尤其在第三國科會是否規劃跟教育部數位發展部目前共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系讓各個各大院校能夠更平等的去取得研發的資源這個是我們所重視的我想未來AI是不可或缺的技術我們希望降低門檻擴大參與共同來努力這是我剛剛所提到困境上希望你們能夠重視的好嗎"},{"start":831.99,"end":833.257,"text":"谢谢谢谢会员谢谢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":463,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時20分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：羅委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。主委，我最近有針對形態及生理醫學學門相關議題向國科會索資，想跟你請教幾個問題，請問一開始索資時我有要求要提供計畫的主持人名單，但為什麼一開始不敢提供計畫主持人的名字，後來再一次索資才提供？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請生科處楊處長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["楊處長台鴻：謝謝委員，我是生科處楊台鴻。我必須很抱歉，是我一時疏忽，我們第一次提供的時候有同仁說要小心個資、小心個資，後來委員辦公室有再提醒我們，我們就再去確認沒有個資的問題，因為網路上都可以查得到，所以我們後來就統統給委員了，這個跟委員說一聲抱歉，不好意思。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，申請國科會的計畫，為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下墜，隔年直接掛零？這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎？還是符合學門召集人的精神？斷崖式的下墜要那些年輕學者怎麼辦？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事，沒有！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想我們的資料可能有誤，還是你們的資料有誤？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能委員誤會了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個應該要有待確認，不要直接就說我們的資料一定是不對的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，根據我們的資料……"],["羅委員廷瑋：後續的相關資料我們來對一下嘛！好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的資料是沒有這件事。"],["羅委員廷瑋：到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣？我們會後再來研討一下，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，之後還有時間可以再討論，但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供近六年生理醫學學門所有計畫主持人的KPI？能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI？"],["吳主任委員誠文：相關的資料我請楊處長……"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以提供嗎？"],["楊處長台鴻：委員，我們每一件補助的計畫，學者都會交成果報告，我不曉得委員的KPI跟這個成果報告的意思是不是很接近？如果可以的話……"],["羅委員廷瑋：他的paper發表數量、被引用的次數，這些東西是不是可以把相關的資料、數據都給我們？"],["楊處長台鴻：事實上這些資料我們本來就有，所以應該沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。","另外我要講的是，不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖式的下墜、相關的補助，甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到，我必須坦白講，主委，我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授跟我們提到說，因為財劃法所以我們現在的補助都減少，這個財劃法的修正是不是影響到我們？我還是要講，主委，剛剛您所提的，您的主要回復內容是因為財劃法造成行政院在編列預算有所影響，對吧？剛剛也有人跟你講事權下放，現在整個預算會給地方。我們還是要再講，光是教育來說就好了，我自己在辦考察，教育相關的一些補助、中央的補助也都直接講明，可能明年度財劃法下來以後，因為臺中市拿到262億，所以中央的補助可能會從原本的5成變成2成，甚至一直在討論，各個學校的冷氣費原本由中央直接支付的款項要由地方自己開始支應。","所以我們看到剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的，行政院有沒有重視科技？有沒有編列更多預算給你們？那是行政院自己要有的態度。我們看到行政院很重視國防，重視國防沒有不好，但是科學也很重要，有沒有一起並行、有沒有一起努力？這是行政院的態度。不要一直告訴我們財劃法去影響到整個預算的編列，但是卻絕口不提將所有事權下放給地方，地方要自行因應。最關鍵剛剛就講到了，整個電費要求地方自己付出的時候，相對應的行政院所編列的預算在這個部分的支出就會減少啊！所以有財劃法的預算下放、也有支出減少，在總體預算都有提升的情況之下，單單用財劃法就要把它斷定補助減少是因為財劃法的關係，我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的，主委。","我想另外再提到近年主權AI成為全球關注的一個焦點，根據史丹佛大學報告，全球百大影響的AI模型幾乎由美國、中國開發，若AI逐漸成為國家一個基礎設施，其他國家便可能受制於技術、資料、依賴，臺灣在這一場全球科技主權戰，我認為不能夠置身事外。所以華碩的施董就指出2025年各國部署主權AI的關鍵轉折點，賴清德總統多次公開宣示主權AI，強調要建構具臺灣特色的在地模型。然而目前國內政策推動仍以硬體建設為主，缺乏對資料的治理、模型的開源、人才的養成、文化的保存等等整體戰略規劃。","依據財團法人人工智慧科技基金會所提出的2025年臺灣產業AI化大調查暨AI落地指引，整個資料顯示目前臺灣企業具有自研語言以及模型能力的比例僅約12.5%。代表多數企業仍然是依賴國外的API模型介面，若AI的核心技術跟相關資料長期都掌握在外國的平臺當中，我國的資料安全、文化表述以及產業的創新都將面臨挑戰。","所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中，臺灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的AI算力，當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構，投資恐流於硬體的堆疊。有報導（經濟日報）就指出，目前全球計算整個伺服器市場中，AI伺服器占比已經提升到28%，如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進，避免落後跟閒置？這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題。更關鍵的是人才的培育，臺灣的年輕工程師、學生大多仍在使ChatGPT、Claude等國際平臺進行練習，缺乏自主模型的訓練跟實驗的環境，這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就缺乏競爭力，難以培育他們能夠孕育設計下一個AI。","所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題，請問主委，國科會如何具體界定主權AI的範圍？在整個算力中心治理上，國科會明確的方向是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在主權AI的部分當然我們也是鼓勵，以前國科會雖然從政府的角度導引做了一個臺德模型，但是現在我們已經把這個任務在鼓勵我們的學界跟產業界，還有中央研究院，大家一起來努力，希望藉助民間的力量能夠快速發展適合臺灣應用的各種各樣模型。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們都希望啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經編了經費在推動，同時我們也鼓勵，現在數發部也在協助，鼓勵民間軟體業者做相關的應用服務，我們也整合臺灣民間的力量建構算力，不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候，數發部要負責我們自有的語料庫建置、資料交換的標準；我們鼓勵民間投入應用服務，使用AI做應用服務。這個計畫也會搭配著我們現在的大南方新矽谷以及其他治理方案，明年的預算我們都編進來了，也希望立法院這邊來支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有夢最美！我還是希望……這個不爭的事實我還是要講，大多的模型、語料都是英文，要不然就是簡體中文，AI模型在訓練的資料當中百分之九十都是外國語料，我們要如何談主權？對不對？本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術，更關乎文化主體、國家韌性，政府在推動AI基礎建設的同時，我們要思考如何讓臺灣的語言、價值、法治能夠被AI理解、反應，讓AI不只是臺灣使用的工具，而是有真正能夠懂臺灣的智慧體系，讓我們看到那些語料在點擊的時候都心有戚戚焉！最根本的問題是，主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂臺灣、懂中華民國，還是要讓臺灣去懂AI？我們應該要從根本好好想想，應該是AI來懂我們。主權AI的目的若是追求自主算力與模型，不過是在追趕產業而已；但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律、語言、價值、文化，那就需要一種新的思維跟方向。請問主委，國科會是否願意將文化主權納入科技政策的核心架構，讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽，更是強化國家文化主體、民主韌性最重要的具體實踐，你認為呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一點我們是同意的，我們在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這部分，現在是積極在進行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這個部分上，我們有具體共同的目標，我們共同來努力，但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設，還有科研使用的落實狀況。國科會的一個報告就有講，自114年底AI的算力達到5.1，對吧？118年預估要到23，並推出了相對應的臺灣AI平臺，協助企業跟研究團隊快速導入應用，這顯示整個政府確實在布局AI的基礎能量，也能夠反映出幾個值得深思的現象。我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的同時，算力資源取得正逐漸出現落差，這不能否認，部分大型的法人產業界有能力自建運算的資源，但中小創新的公司呢？這些大學的研究團隊呢？面臨的就是算力不足、租用昂貴等問題困境，這不只是一個硬體的問題，也涉及到資料的共享、模型的開放以及行政協調的速度，我們有沒有去重視、有沒有去挖掘到這些問題？在推動AI指導的過程當中，如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位，你認為會不會造成學研界看得到、用不到，進而限制了創新研究的多樣性，主委，你怎麼看待？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的確有了解這個問題，所以國網中心的算力建置，依照跟大院提出來的預算裡面，我們逐年編列。然後剛才也提到，我們也在引導產業界的投資，產業投資絕對遠大於政府的投資。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我具體的要求，國科會能不能在布建AI算力中，有多少的比例能夠提供給教育機構、創新團隊實際使用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：大部分的算力都是支持我們的學術……"],["羅委員廷瑋：會後相關的資料，能不能也讓我們知道一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，就是臺灣AI的平臺，針對不同的類型使用者，比如剛剛說的研究單位、學研單位、法人，能夠設計不同的方案去做支援、降低使用的門檻，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這個都是具體的需求，尤其在第三，國科會是否規劃跟教育部、數位發展部共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系，讓各大院校能夠更平等地去取得研發的資源？這個是我們所重視的。未來AI是不可或缺的技術，我們希望降低門檻、擴大參與，共同來努力，這是我剛剛所提到有關的困境，希望你們能夠重視，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員質詢，主委請回座。","我們在郭昱晴委員質詢之後會休息5分鐘，接下來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}}