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--> 00:00:58,100\n上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加那我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你這個所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡\n\n3\n00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:06,197\n你公布了这几个在今年的8月29公布了新的一个补助办法\n\n4\n00:01:07,706 --> 00:01:29,467\n這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多模糊想像的空間我爭取這一項到底會不會有\n\n5\n00:01:29,927 --> 00:01:54,892\n比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的級距很清楚財政級距可以用在教文在社福那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都應該不至於濫用了那原則上就是因為你這一次寫的新的補助辦法讓外界批評\n\n6\n00:01:56,432 --> 00:02:19,846\n擔心無論藍綠各縣市你看剛剛賴慧玲也在擔心說那這個我們會不會有無論是外界會認為說未來有可能會變成是論功行賞或者籠絡某些縣市或者甚至是黨同伐異的一個問題點在這個也就是各縣市看到新的補助辦法難免因為你寫得不夠清楚\n\n7\n00:02:20,866 --> 00:02:29,071\n會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請一位幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費\n\n8\n00:02:50,382 --> 00:03:10,189\n還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等這個就是以台北市為例在新的補助辦法之後會受到衝擊的部分也就是說從民眾各縣市都可能會有這樣的問題在交通的權益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等現在外界都會認為說\n\n9\n00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:29,852\n因为新的一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人职各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿\n\n10\n00:03:32,454 --> 00:03:45,523\n這個減幅達到將近38.88所以包括國小國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響\n\n11\n00:03:49,726 --> 00:04:15,225\n那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时仍然是有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后\n\n12\n00:04:16,466 --> 00:04:23,660\n你们过去只开两次会在今年二月之前开过两次会二月之后你们就提出复议了\n\n13\n00:04:25,898 --> 00:04:51,846\n這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號\n\n14\n00:04:53,496 --> 00:05:00,630\n主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長\n\n15\n00:05:03,506 --> 00:05:27,167\n我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見你幾天要叫他們收回意見你給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問你你8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道你真的一般性的補助你有沒有跟地方溝通過\n\n16\n00:05:28,448 --> 00:05:50,298\n我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见\n\n17\n00:05:51,365 --> 00:06:16,747\n然後就結束了那8月29日是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條\n\n18\n00:06:20,143 --> 00:06:39,246\n最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通\n\n19\n00:06:40,424 --> 00:06:52,392\n有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議\n\n20\n00:06:58,268 --> 00:07:26,282\n這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎\n\n21\n00:07:28,041 --> 00:07:36,097\n我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開沙崗的會議你6月3號預告等到三天之後就收了\n\n22\n00:07:37,045 --> 00:08:04,065\n所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡\n\n23\n00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:30,450\n主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你有沒有一些時間不多我要請問你\n\n24\n00:08:33,231 --> 00:08:57,665\n因为你现在的办法已经公告了你现在财务法修正案我们现在已经十月下旬了那当然我们希望12月31号之前新的版本会送进来立法院那包括事权当然事权我觉得需要交代清楚你有办法在12月31号之前会一并包括把事权的部分地质法的修法一并会送进来吗这个是谁要回应我\n\n25\n00:09:02,294 --> 00:09:13,824\n跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編\n\n26\n00:09:21,630 --> 00:09:39,386\n因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的\n\n27\n00:09:41,127 --> 00:10:04,426\n好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過\n\n28\n00:10:06,499 --> 00:10:07,099\n這麼晚才開一次會喔\n\n29\n00:10:27,653 --> 00:10:55,562\n我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整\n\n30\n00:10:55,782 --> 00:11:19,137\n以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查\n\n31\n00:11:21,158 --> 00:11:42,646\n我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就是給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得\n\n32\n00:11:50,629 --> 00:12:17,913\n行政院背後又再做政治操作我有三點說明啦第一個就是說我們在九十一月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一四年只增不減所以他一百一四年度所有的計畫\n\n33\n00:12:19,786 --> 00:12:25,559\n政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條\n\n34\n00:12:28,877 --> 00:12:50,553\n幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制哪一項跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10816\t15140\t我是不是可以請主席長跟阮政次好 請主席長跟阮政次委員好 主席長好 《財化法》含了25年無論是藍綠當縣市首長大家都認為應該調整整個統籌的部分各縣市從\n35099\t58100\t上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加那我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你這個所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡\n58800\t66197\t你公布了这几个在今年的8月29公布了新的一个补助办法\n67706\t89467\t這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性 經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多模糊想像的空間我爭取這一項到底會不會有\n89927\t114892\t比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的級距很清楚財政級距可以用在教文在社福那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都應該不至於濫用了那原則上就是因為你這一次寫的新的補助辦法讓外界批評\n116432\t139846\t擔心無論藍綠各縣市你看剛剛賴慧玲也在擔心說那這個我們會不會有無論是外界會認為說未來有可能會變成是論功行賞或者籠絡某些縣市或者甚至是黨同伐異的一個問題點在這個也就是各縣市看到新的補助辦法難免因為你寫得不夠清楚\n140866\t149071\t會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請一位幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費\n170382\t190189\t還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等這個就是以台北市為例在新的補助辦法之後會受到衝擊的部分也就是說從民眾各縣市都可能會有這樣的問題在交通的權益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等現在外界都會認為說\n191710\t209852\t因为新的一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人职各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿\n212454\t225523\t這個減幅達到將近38.88所以包括國小國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響\n229726\t255225\t那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时仍然是有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后\n256466\t263660\t你们过去只开两次会在今年二月之前开过两次会二月之后你们就提出复议了\n265898\t291846\t這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號\n293496\t300630\t主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長\n303506\t327167\t我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見你幾天要叫他們收回意見你給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問你你8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道你真的一般性的補助你有沒有跟地方溝通過\n328448\t350298\t我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见\n351365\t376747\t然後就結束了那8月29日是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條\n380143\t399246\t最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通\n400424\t412392\t有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議\n418268\t446282\t這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎\n448041\t456097\t我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開沙崗的會議你6月3號預告等到三天之後就收了\n457045\t484065\t所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡\n485956\t510450\t主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你有沒有一些時間不多我要請問你\n513231\t537665\t因为你现在的办法已经公告了你现在财务法修正案我们现在已经十月下旬了那当然我们希望12月31号之前新的版本会送进来立法院那包括事权当然事权我觉得需要交代清楚你有办法在12月31号之前会一并包括把事权的部分地质法的修法一并会送进来吗这个是谁要回应我\n542294\t553824\t跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編\n561630\t579386\t因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的\n581127\t604426\t好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過\n606499\t607099\t這麼晚才開一次會喔\n627653\t655562\t我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整\n655782\t679137\t以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查\n681158\t702646\t我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就是給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得\n710629\t737913\t行政院背後又再做政治操作我有三點說明啦第一個就是說我們在九十一月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一四年只增不減所以他一百一四年度所有的計畫\n739786\t745559\t政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條\n748877\t770553\t幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制哪一項跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝\n","txt":"我是不是可以請主席長跟阮政次好 請主席長跟阮政次委員好 主席長好 《財化法》含了25年無論是藍綠當縣市首長大家都認為應該調整整個統籌的部分各縣市從\n上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加那我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你這個所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡\n你公布了这几个在今年的8月29公布了新的一个补助办法\n這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性 經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多模糊想像的空間我爭取這一項到底會不會有\n比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的級距很清楚財政級距可以用在教文在社福那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都應該不至於濫用了那原則上就是因為你這一次寫的新的補助辦法讓外界批評\n擔心無論藍綠各縣市你看剛剛賴慧玲也在擔心說那這個我們會不會有無論是外界會認為說未來有可能會變成是論功行賞或者籠絡某些縣市或者甚至是黨同伐異的一個問題點在這個也就是各縣市看到新的補助辦法難免因為你寫得不夠清楚\n會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請一位幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費\n還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等這個就是以台北市為例在新的補助辦法之後會受到衝擊的部分也就是說從民眾各縣市都可能會有這樣的問題在交通的權益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等現在外界都會認為說\n因为新的一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人职各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿\n這個減幅達到將近38.88所以包括國小國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響\n那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时仍然是有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后\n你们过去只开两次会在今年二月之前开过两次会二月之后你们就提出复议了\n這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號\n主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長\n我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見你幾天要叫他們收回意見你給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問你你8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道你真的一般性的補助你有沒有跟地方溝通過\n我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见\n然後就結束了那8月29日是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條\n最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通\n有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議\n這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎\n我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開沙崗的會議你6月3號預告等到三天之後就收了\n所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡\n主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你有沒有一些時間不多我要請問你\n因为你现在的办法已经公告了你现在财务法修正案我们现在已经十月下旬了那当然我们希望12月31号之前新的版本会送进来立法院那包括事权当然事权我觉得需要交代清楚你有办法在12月31号之前会一并包括把事权的部分地质法的修法一并会送进来吗这个是谁要回应我\n跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編\n因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的\n好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過\n這麼晚才開一次會喔\n我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整\n以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查\n我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就是給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得\n行政院背後又再做政治操作我有三點說明啦第一個就是說我們在九十一月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一四年只增不減所以他一百一四年度所有的計畫\n政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條\n幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制哪一項跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.816 --> 00:15.140\n我是不是可以請主席長跟阮政次好請主席長跟阮政次委員好主席長好《財化法》含了25年無論是藍綠當縣市首長大家都認為應該調整整個統籌的部分各縣市從\n\n00:35.099 --> 00:58.100\n上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加那我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你這個所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡\n\n00:58.800 --> 01:06.197\n你公布了这几个在今年的8月29公布了新的一个补助办法\n\n01:07.706 --> 01:29.467\n這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多模糊想像的空間我爭取這一項到底會不會有\n\n01:29.927 --> 01:54.892\n比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的級距很清楚財政級距可以用在教文在社福那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都應該不至於濫用了那原則上就是因為你這一次寫的新的補助辦法讓外界批評\n\n01:56.432 --> 02:19.846\n擔心無論藍綠各縣市你看剛剛賴慧玲也在擔心說那這個我們會不會有無論是外界會認為說未來有可能會變成是論功行賞或者籠絡某些縣市或者甚至是黨同伐異的一個問題點在這個也就是各縣市看到新的補助辦法難免因為你寫得不夠清楚\n\n02:20.866 --> 02:29.071\n會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請一位幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費\n\n02:50.382 --> 03:10.189\n還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等這個就是以台北市為例在新的補助辦法之後會受到衝擊的部分也就是說從民眾各縣市都可能會有這樣的問題在交通的權益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等現在外界都會認為說\n\n03:11.710 --> 03:29.852\n因为新的一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人职各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿\n\n03:32.454 --> 03:45.523\n這個減幅達到將近38.88所以包括國小國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響\n\n03:49.726 --> 04:15.225\n那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时仍然是有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后\n\n04:16.466 --> 04:23.660\n你们过去只开两次会在今年二月之前开过两次会二月之后你们就提出复议了\n\n04:25.898 --> 04:51.846\n這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號\n\n04:53.496 --> 05:00.630\n主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長\n\n05:03.506 --> 05:27.167\n我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見你幾天要叫他們收回意見你給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問你你8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道你真的一般性的補助你有沒有跟地方溝通過\n\n05:28.448 --> 05:50.298\n我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见\n\n05:51.365 --> 06:16.747\n然後就結束了那8月29日是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條\n\n06:20.143 --> 06:39.246\n最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通\n\n06:40.424 --> 06:52.392\n有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議\n\n06:58.268 --> 07:26.282\n這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎\n\n07:28.041 --> 07:36.097\n我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開沙崗的會議你6月3號預告等到三天之後就收了\n\n07:37.045 --> 08:04.065\n所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡\n\n08:05.956 --> 08:30.450\n主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你有沒有一些時間不多我要請問你\n\n08:33.231 --> 08:57.665\n因为你现在的办法已经公告了你现在财务法修正案我们现在已经十月下旬了那当然我们希望12月31号之前新的版本会送进来立法院那包括事权当然事权我觉得需要交代清楚你有办法在12月31号之前会一并包括把事权的部分地质法的修法一并会送进来吗这个是谁要回应我\n\n09:02.294 --> 09:13.824\n跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編\n\n09:21.630 --> 09:39.386\n因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的\n\n09:41.127 --> 10:04.426\n好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過\n\n10:06.499 --> 10:07.099\n這麼晚才開一次會喔\n\n10:27.653 --> 10:55.562\n我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整\n\n10:55.782 --> 11:19.137\n以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查\n\n11:21.158 --> 11:42.646\n我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就是給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得\n\n11:50.629 --> 12:17.913\n行政院背後又再做政治操作我有三點說明啦第一個就是說我們在九十一月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一四年只增不減所以他一百一四年度所有的計畫\n\n12:19.786 --> 12:25.559\n政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條\n\n12:28.877 --> 12:50.553\n幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制哪一項跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.816,"end":15.14,"text":"我是不是可以請主席長跟阮政次好 請主席長跟阮政次委員好 主席長好 《財化法》含了25年無論是藍綠當縣市首長大家都認為應該調整整個統籌的部分各縣市從"},{"start":35.099,"end":58.1,"text":"上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加那我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你這個所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡"},{"start":58.8,"end":66.197,"text":"你公布了这几个在今年的8月29公布了新的一个补助办法"},{"start":67.706,"end":89.467,"text":"這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性 經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多模糊想像的空間我爭取這一項到底會不會有"},{"start":89.927,"end":114.892,"text":"比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的級距很清楚財政級距可以用在教文在社福那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都應該不至於濫用了那原則上就是因為你這一次寫的新的補助辦法讓外界批評"},{"start":116.432,"end":139.846,"text":"擔心無論藍綠各縣市你看剛剛賴慧玲也在擔心說那這個我們會不會有無論是外界會認為說未來有可能會變成是論功行賞或者籠絡某些縣市或者甚至是黨同伐異的一個問題點在這個也就是各縣市看到新的補助辦法難免因為你寫得不夠清楚"},{"start":140.866,"end":149.071,"text":"會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請一位幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費"},{"start":170.382,"end":190.189,"text":"還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等這個就是以台北市為例在新的補助辦法之後會受到衝擊的部分也就是說從民眾各縣市都可能會有這樣的問題在交通的權益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等現在外界都會認為說"},{"start":191.71,"end":209.852,"text":"因为新的一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人职各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿"},{"start":212.454,"end":225.523,"text":"這個減幅達到將近38.88所以包括國小國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響"},{"start":229.726,"end":255.225,"text":"那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时仍然是有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后"},{"start":256.466,"end":263.66,"text":"你们过去只开两次会在今年二月之前开过两次会二月之后你们就提出复议了"},{"start":265.898,"end":291.846,"text":"這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號"},{"start":293.496,"end":300.63,"text":"主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長"},{"start":303.506,"end":327.167,"text":"我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見你幾天要叫他們收回意見你給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問你你8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道你真的一般性的補助你有沒有跟地方溝通過"},{"start":328.448,"end":350.298,"text":"我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见"},{"start":351.365,"end":376.747,"text":"然後就結束了那8月29日是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條"},{"start":380.143,"end":399.246,"text":"最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通"},{"start":400.424,"end":412.392,"text":"有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議"},{"start":418.268,"end":446.282,"text":"這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎"},{"start":448.041,"end":456.097,"text":"我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開沙崗的會議你6月3號預告等到三天之後就收了"},{"start":457.045,"end":484.065,"text":"所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡"},{"start":485.956,"end":510.45,"text":"主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你有沒有一些時間不多我要請問你"},{"start":513.231,"end":537.665,"text":"因为你现在的办法已经公告了你现在财务法修正案我们现在已经十月下旬了那当然我们希望12月31号之前新的版本会送进来立法院那包括事权当然事权我觉得需要交代清楚你有办法在12月31号之前会一并包括把事权的部分地质法的修法一并会送进来吗这个是谁要回应我"},{"start":542.294,"end":553.824,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編"},{"start":561.63,"end":579.386,"text":"因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的"},{"start":581.127,"end":604.426,"text":"好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過"},{"start":606.499,"end":607.099,"text":"這麼晚才開一次會喔"},{"start":627.653,"end":655.562,"text":"我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整"},{"start":655.782,"end":679.137,"text":"以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查"},{"start":681.158,"end":702.646,"text":"我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就是給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得"},{"start":710.629,"end":737.913,"text":"行政院背後又再做政治操作我有三點說明啦第一個就是說我們在九十一月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一四年只增不減所以他一百一四年度所有的計畫"},{"start":739.786,"end":745.559,"text":"政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條"},{"start":748.877,"end":770.553,"text":"幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制哪一項跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時21分）我是不是可以請主計長跟阮政次？"],["主席：請主計長跟阮次。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長好。財劃法喊了25年，無論是藍綠當縣市首長，大家都認為應該調整，整個統籌的部分，從上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加，我們今天回來討論一般性補助款對於各縣市的衝擊及影響，包括前幾位委員也質詢了，大家都關注、關心未來所謂的普及性、經常性、基本建設或維運性質、財政均衡，你在今年8月29日公布了新的補助辦法，這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚，但是語意上到底是什麼意思？普及性、經常性？什麼叫基本建設？這個就會讓外界有很多模糊想像的空間，我爭取的這項到底會不會有，比照過去長期我們用的財政級距，很清楚！財政級距可以用在教文、社福，那就非常非常清楚！大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用，畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查，我相信應該都不至於濫用。原則上就是因為你這一次寫了新的補助辦法，讓外界批評、擔心，無論藍綠各縣市，你看剛剛賴惠員委員也在擔心這個我們會不會有，無論是外界認為未來有可能會變成論功行賞，或者籠絡某些縣市，或者甚至是有黨同伐異的問題點在，這個也就是各縣市看到新的補助辦法，因為你寫得不夠清楚，難免會讓外界有這樣的擔心。","以臺北市為例，在今年9月13日行政院開過記者會之後，你們也很明確地說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的，包括捷運南北環段，還有包括合理教師編制員額，本來要補助教師的部分，能夠再多請幾位老師，還有包括學生營養午餐、學校冷氣汰換、電費、身心障礙教育補助費、校園改善補助費、無障礙環境補助、學校運動團隊的補助等等，這是以臺北市為例，在新的補助辦法之後會受到衝擊的部分，也就是說各縣市都可能會有這樣的問題，在交通權益、行人安全，包括孩子的教育等等。現在外界都會認為因為一般性補助款在新的辦法之後，後續會變成行政院鬥爭的人質，各縣市政府都可能會發生這樣的狀況。以臺北市為例，原來計畫型補助核定金額是31.92億，後來就刪減了12.4億，減幅達到將近38.88%，所以包括國中、國小144所學校冷氣汰換、電費，還有3所學校校舍改建、資訊電腦等等都會受到影響，中央就說未來你們要自己編。","所以主計長、政次，我們上次在財劃法的修正期間，財政部當時阮政次在同一個地點、同樣的位置，你有告訴他說在去年8月1日跟9月4日邀請了地方開了兩次會，對不對？你說財劃法三讀通過之後……但是財劃法三讀通過之後，你們過去只開兩次會，在今年2月之前開過兩次會，2月之後你們就提出覆議了。這麼重大的案子，對中央也好，你們認為中央在垂直分配或地方水平分配都會受到衝擊，卻只開了兩次會，後面就提出覆議。但是阮政次在同樣的地點說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會，提出穩健的意見，之後就完全沒有聲音了，開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了，直到今年6月3日，主計總處對於新的一般性補助辦法，你是在6月3日提出修正，對不對？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：徵詢縣市的意見。"],["李委員彥秀：我要請問你……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們在114年6月3日徵詢各縣市的意見。"],["李委員彥秀：好，你叫他們要幾天提出意見，你給幾天的時間？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們在8月12日又召開一次會議。"],["李委員彥秀：我只問你，8月3日預告新的補助辦法，之前我不知道針對一般性補助你有沒有跟地方溝通過，我不知道你有沒有？這個辦法公告、預告，你給幾天的時間？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們陸續有召開，8月……"],["李委員彥秀：你不要跟我講陸續有幾天，你告訴我……"],["陳主計長淑姿：然後9月13日、9月17日……"],["李委員彥秀：你不要跟我講，9月13日已經是公告，6月3日你給3天的時間要提出意見，然後就結束了，8月29日就正式發布。","我們看一下過去幾次依照行政法的預告時間，近年任何一個行政補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有1個月，按照行政院的一些相關規則及辦法，依照行政程序法第一百五十四條，重要事項最起碼都要公告將近21天、1個月，甚至3個月有，我翻了一下你過去的例子，也都最起碼有一、兩個月，甚至3個月。我要請問主計長，這麼重要的案子，如果是要穩健地跟地方溝通，有需要黑箱作業、偷偷摸摸的嗎？你一個一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道，這攸關到民眾相關權益還有地方議會的審議，這個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎？3天，只公告3天就收了。8月29日已經是公告的結果，我都還沒問你說各地方給你的意見是什麼、你有沒有因為地方的意見修改過，我要看所有的資料，但是就光一個補助辦法，你是偷偷摸摸的公告耶！主計長，這麼重要的補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有偷偷摸摸，我們主要都有召開相關的會議……"],["李委員彥秀：3天耶！你6月3日預告，然後3天之後就收了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們本身在8月14日又召開相關的會議，然後8月25日也……"],["李委員彥秀：那你為什麼不在公告期間，按照道理說，我們都知道一個法規的公布預告，我們就是要蒐集地方民意、地方的意見，不管是各部會，你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調？公告期間都過了，公告之後才蒐，地方的意見在哪裡？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員報告，這不是屬於行政程序……"],["李委員彥秀：所以主計長，我覺得對於這個公告來說，我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸，這個公告有這麼見不得人，背後到底有沒有政治操作在裡頭？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就這個部分跟委員講一下……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我覺得如果按照阮次講的，我們真的要穩健的蒐集地方的意見，我覺得這個背後……在我看來，光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計。","最後一個，我要再問你，因為時間不多……"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員先說明一下，因為這個部分不是人民義務事項……"],["李委員彥秀：我要請問你，因為現在辦法已經公告了，就財劃法修正案，現在已經10月下旬了，當然，我們希望12月31號之前新的版本會送進來立法院，包括事權的部分，我覺得事權需要交代清楚，你有辦法在12月31號之前，包括事權的部分及地制法的修法能一併送進來嗎？這個是誰要回應我？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，關於財劃法再修正案的這個部分我們現在正在努力，就是包括……"],["李委員彥秀：12月31號之前會送進來嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們在努力……"],["李委員彥秀：那後面地方政府預算怎麼編？因為……"],["阮次長清華：沒有，現在已經沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：不是，我今天的質詢有兩個重點，我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業，我不同意這樣的作法，因為按照過去，立院對於你們送進來的是可以退回的，我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人！"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，如果……"],["李委員彥秀：這個是我要跟主計長講的，好好溝通、穩健溝通，要去了解地方上的聲音，這是第一點。","第二點，12月31號之前，你剛剛都沒有把握是不是能在12月31號之前把包括事權的調整都可以好好……你們也沒開過幾次會啊！如果這件事這麼重要，大罷免期間有很多的時間，從今年法案通過之後有將近半年的時間，你開個10次會議都不為過。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，就財劃法這一部分，從上一次修法通過以後我們開了4次會，徵詢地方政府的意見，昨天又開了一次會，昨天其實有進一步……"],["李委員彥秀：這麼晚才再開一次會喔！"],["阮次長清華：對，再開一次會，昨天的會議其實有很大的進展，比如有關分配的架構我們要優先彌補財政收支差短，第二個要確保財源保障，還有相關的指標……"],["李委員彥秀：次長、主計長，我要提醒你們，你們這一次公布的草案沒有跟地方充分溝通，在大罷免之後，賴總統才說施政優先順序要去做調整，以人民為優先……"],["阮次長清華：事實上，我們……"],["李委員彥秀：但是光從公布草案跟辦法的時間點，還有公布的內容有太多的不明確性，我都覺得背後實在還是有太多的政治算計，我只能說我個人覺得非常遺憾。","再來，你們這種補助辦法是地方都不確定到底送進來的一般性補助款能不能拿得到，地方議會也會來不及審查，我都不知道未來地方議會的審查及把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊，因為這個內容實在有太多的不明確性。以前就是直接撥給地方，它知道自己的財政級距是多少、可以拿到多少，然後自己去編列社福、教育及基礎建設等等的預算，都可以好好的編列，但是現在是各縣市送進來後，你愛給誰就給誰，你喜歡誰就給誰，這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間，讓外界會覺得行政院背後又再做政治操作。以上。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我有三點說明：第一個就是我們在9月17日有召開整個說明補助的項目；第二個是這個補助辦法沒有涉及到人民的權利義務，所以不需要預告；第三個是我們也保證所有縣市所收到的補助款都比114年只增不減，所以114年度所有的計畫都能夠照案執行。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係，按照行政程序法第一百五十四條，幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間，最起碼是1個月以上，緊急的是21天。政府所做的每件事情都跟人民息息相關，不要告訴我跟人民權益沒有關係，我剛剛講的這些，包括學生的冷氣、教師合理的員額編制，哪一項跟孩子沒有關係、跟人民沒有關係？不要睜眼說瞎話！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。","接下來請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}}