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408.121, \"end\": 408.301, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 408.301, \"end\": 408.501, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 408.501, \"end\": 408.881, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 408.881, \"end\": 409.662, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 409.662, \"end\": 409.882, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 409.882, \"end\": 410.002, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 410.002, \"end\": 410.622, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 410.622, \"end\": 411.122, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 411.122, \"end\": 411.262, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 411.262, \"end\": 411.403, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 411.403, \"end\": 411.483, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 411.483, \"end\": 411.503, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 412.723, \"end\": 439.685, \"text\": \"專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據喔所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高啦所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場喔所以我本席想要問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 412.723, \"end\": 413.344, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 413.344, \"end\": 413.804, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 413.804, \"end\": 413.924, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 413.924, \"end\": 414.124, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 414.124, \"end\": 414.305, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 414.305, \"end\": 414.465, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 414.465, \"end\": 414.705, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 414.705, \"end\": 414.945, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 414.945, \"end\": 415.165, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 415.165, \"end\": 415.305, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 440.425, \"end\": 465.341, \"text\": \"還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係那所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 440.425, \"end\": 440.565, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 440.565, \"end\": 440.986, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 440.986, \"end\": 441.226, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 441.226, \"end\": 441.566, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 441.566, \"end\": 441.766, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"盟\", \"start\": 441.766, \"end\": 441.926, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"模\", \"start\": 441.926, \"end\": 442.226, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 442.226, \"end\": 442.787, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 442.787, \"end\": 442.927, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 442.927, \"end\": 443.047, \"score\": 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461.658, \"end\": 461.878, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 461.878, \"end\": 462.499, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"僱\"}, {\"word\": \"傭\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 462.499, \"end\": 462.639, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 462.639, \"end\": 462.739, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 462.739, \"end\": 463.119, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 463.119, \"end\": 463.359, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"攬\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 463.359, \"end\": 463.72, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 463.72, \"end\": 464.04, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 464.04, \"end\": 464.14, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 464.14, \"end\": 464.32, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 464.32, \"end\": 464.42, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 464.42, \"end\": 464.58, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"方\", 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\"好\", \"start\": 759.68, \"end\": 759.78, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 759.78, \"end\": 760.221, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 760.221, \"end\": 760.321, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 760.321, \"end\": 760.341, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,832 --> 00:00:01,875\n來謝謝主席請紅部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:08,683 --> 00:00:34,169\n廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然\n\n3\n00:00:35,256 --> 00:01:01,190\n因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化\n\n4\n00:01:02,190 --> 00:01:27,872\n那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對你說開放的態度其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定啦今天特別肯定但是本席也很樂見啦所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛對不對當然這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年上半年大概幾月\n\n5\n00:01:29,198 --> 00:01:49,484\n然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的演繹包括\n\n6\n00:01:50,117 --> 00:01:58,598\n哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分的權益我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰\n\n7\n00:01:59,673 --> 00:02:23,917\n你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做喔所以是勞動部主責因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是但是蠻奇怪的喔因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成喔她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關啊\n\n8\n00:02:29,417 --> 00:02:48,639\n對不對那其實今天你的報告也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題\n\n9\n00:02:50,931 --> 00:03:00,548\n我想要釐清這個問題跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部\n\n10\n00:03:01,823 --> 00:03:30,027\n因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運它其實某部分它有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候\n\n11\n00:03:30,547 --> 00:03:45,923\n由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的部長我其實今天問這個就是想要確定這件事\n\n12\n00:03:46,403 --> 00:04:04,043\n的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調是然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛是好所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我\n\n13\n00:04:05,925 --> 00:04:23,718\n我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕\n\n14\n00:04:24,398 --> 00:04:48,488\n不然當初在民進黨執政全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係我們就先確認一下因為本席認為其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬僱傭還是相關或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大\n\n15\n00:04:51,489 --> 00:05:14,250\n都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡\n\n16\n00:05:15,198 --> 00:05:31,746\n我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以\n\n17\n00:05:32,446 --> 00:05:58,873\n我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴是因為比方說他的因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括院那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在現在的進度比較細節的部分\n\n18\n00:05:59,353 --> 00:06:21,667\n我跟委員說我自己也希望儘快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以儘快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望儘快其實還有一個原因\n\n19\n00:06:22,688 --> 00:06:51,503\n因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者那所以因為現在沒有一個\n\n20\n00:06:52,723 --> 00:07:19,685\n專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據喔所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高啦所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場喔所以我本席想要問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定\n\n21\n00:07:20,425 --> 00:07:45,341\n還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係那所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法\n\n22\n00:07:46,348 --> 00:08:02,757\n所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概出來我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下\n\n23\n00:08:03,157 --> 00:08:25,605\n然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這個這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程\n\n24\n00:08:26,824 --> 00:08:49,262\n對你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單三單四單都有可能大概啊我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對大概抓三單都有但是看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段\n\n25\n00:08:51,564 --> 00:09:05,123\n讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎\n\n26\n00:09:06,184 --> 00:09:28,846\n當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一\n\n27\n00:09:30,106 --> 00:09:55,755\n我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去了解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的\n\n28\n00:09:56,495 --> 00:10:13,486\n我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛\n\n29\n00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:35,185\n所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下\n\n30\n00:10:38,530 --> 00:11:05,184\n你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人\n\n31\n00:11:06,624 --> 00:11:31,742\n我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成\n\n32\n00:11:33,092 --> 00:11:47,710\n所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270啊\n\n33\n00:11:49,191 --> 00:12:06,537\n所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎\n\n34\n00:12:07,057 --> 00:12:36,435\n是所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料\n\n35\n00:12:38,378 --> 00:12:40,341\n好那會後提供給本席好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n832\t1875\t來 謝謝主席 請紅部長 請部長\n8683\t34169\t廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然\n35256\t61190\t因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化\n62190\t87872\t那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對 你說開放的態度 其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定啦今天特別肯定 但是本席也很樂見啦所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛 對不對當然 這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久 你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年 上半年大概幾月\n89198\t109484\t然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的演繹包括\n110117\t118598\t哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分的權益我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰\n119673\t143917\t你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做喔所以是勞動部主責因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是但是蠻奇怪的喔因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成喔她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關啊\n149417\t168639\t對不對那其實今天你的報告也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題\n170931\t180548\t我想要釐清這個問題 跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部\n181823\t210027\t因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運它其實某部分它有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候\n210547\t225923\t由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的部長我其實今天問這個就是想要確定這件事\n226403\t244043\t的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調是然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛是好所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我\n245925\t263718\t我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕\n264398\t288488\t不然當初在民進黨執政 全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的 協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係 我們就先確認一下因為本席認為 其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬 僱傭 還是相關 或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大\n291489\t314250\t都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡\n315198\t331746\t我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以\n332446\t358873\t我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴是因為比方說他的因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括院那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在現在的進度比較細節的部分\n359353\t381667\t我跟委員說我自己也希望儘快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以儘快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望儘快其實還有一個原因\n382688\t411503\t因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者那所以因為現在沒有一個\n412723\t439685\t專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據喔所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高啦所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場喔所以我本席想要問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定\n440425\t465341\t還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係那所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法\n466348\t482757\t所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概出來我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下\n483157\t505605\t然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這個這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程\n506824\t529262\t對你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單三單四單都有可能大概啊我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對大概抓三單都有但是看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段\n531564\t545123\t讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎\n546184\t568846\t當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一\n570106\t595755\t我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好 我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去了解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的\n596495\t613486\t我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛\n614676\t635185\t所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下\n638530\t665184\t你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人\n666624\t691742\t我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過 因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成\n693092\t707710\t所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270啊\n709191\t726537\t所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎\n727057\t756435\t是 所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料\n758378\t760341\t好那會後提供給本席好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"來 謝謝主席 請紅部長 請部長\n廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然\n因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化\n那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對 你說開放的態度 其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定啦今天特別肯定 但是本席也很樂見啦所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛 對不對當然 這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久 你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年 上半年大概幾月\n然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的演繹包括\n哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分的權益我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰\n你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做喔所以是勞動部主責因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是但是蠻奇怪的喔因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成喔她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關啊\n對不對那其實今天你的報告也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題\n我想要釐清這個問題 跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部\n因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運它其實某部分它有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候\n由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的部長我其實今天問這個就是想要確定這件事\n的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調是然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛是好所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我\n我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕\n不然當初在民進黨執政 全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的 協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係 我們就先確認一下因為本席認為 其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬 僱傭 還是相關 或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大\n都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡\n我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以\n我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴是因為比方說他的因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括院那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在現在的進度比較細節的部分\n我跟委員說我自己也希望儘快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以儘快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望儘快其實還有一個原因\n因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者那所以因為現在沒有一個\n專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據喔所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高啦所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場喔所以我本席想要問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定\n還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係那所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法\n所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概出來我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下\n然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這個這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程\n對你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單三單四單都有可能大概啊我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對大概抓三單都有但是看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段\n讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎\n當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一\n我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好 我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去了解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的\n我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛\n所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下\n你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人\n我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過 因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成\n所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270啊\n所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎\n是 所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料\n好那會後提供給本席好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.832 --> 00:01.875\n來謝謝主席請紅部長請部長\n\n00:08.683 --> 00:34.169\n廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然\n\n00:35.256 --> 01:01.190\n因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化\n\n01:02.190 --> 01:27.872\n那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對你說開放的態度其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定啦今天特別肯定但是本席也很樂見啦所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛對不對當然這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年上半年大概幾月\n\n01:29.198 --> 01:49.484\n然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的演繹包括\n\n01:50.117 --> 01:58.598\n哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分的權益我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰\n\n01:59.673 --> 02:23.917\n你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做喔所以是勞動部主責因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是但是蠻奇怪的喔因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成喔她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關啊\n\n02:29.417 --> 02:48.639\n對不對那其實今天你的報告也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題\n\n02:50.931 --> 03:00.548\n我想要釐清這個問題跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部\n\n03:01.823 --> 03:30.027\n因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運它其實某部分它有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候\n\n03:30.547 --> 03:45.923\n由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的部長我其實今天問這個就是想要確定這件事\n\n03:46.403 --> 04:04.043\n的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調是然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛是好所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我\n\n04:05.925 --> 04:23.718\n我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕\n\n04:24.398 --> 04:48.488\n不然當初在民進黨執政全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係我們就先確認一下因為本席認為其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬僱傭還是相關或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大\n\n04:51.489 --> 05:14.250\n都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡\n\n05:15.198 --> 05:31.746\n我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以\n\n05:32.446 --> 05:58.873\n我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴是因為比方說他的因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括院那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在現在的進度比較細節的部分\n\n05:59.353 --> 06:21.667\n我跟委員說我自己也希望儘快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以儘快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望儘快其實還有一個原因\n\n06:22.688 --> 06:51.503\n因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者那所以因為現在沒有一個\n\n06:52.723 --> 07:19.685\n專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據喔所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高啦所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場喔所以我本席想要問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定\n\n07:20.425 --> 07:45.341\n還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係那所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法\n\n07:46.348 --> 08:02.757\n所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概出來我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下\n\n08:03.157 --> 08:25.605\n然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這個這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程\n\n08:26.824 --> 08:49.262\n對你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單三單四單都有可能大概啊我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對大概抓三單都有但是看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段\n\n08:51.564 --> 09:05.123\n讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎\n\n09:06.184 --> 09:28.846\n當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一\n\n09:30.106 --> 09:55.755\n我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去了解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的\n\n09:56.495 --> 10:13.486\n我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛\n\n10:14.676 --> 10:35.185\n所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下\n\n10:38.530 --> 11:05.184\n你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人\n\n11:06.624 --> 11:31.742\n我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成\n\n11:33.092 --> 11:47.710\n所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270啊\n\n11:49.191 --> 12:06.537\n所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎\n\n12:07.057 --> 12:36.435\n是所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料\n\n12:38.378 --> 12:40.341\n好那會後提供給本席好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.832,"end":1.875,"text":"來 謝謝主席 請紅部長 請部長"},{"start":8.683,"end":34.169,"text":"廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然"},{"start":35.256,"end":61.19,"text":"因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化"},{"start":62.19,"end":87.872,"text":"那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對 你說開放的態度 其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定啦今天特別肯定 但是本席也很樂見啦所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛 對不對當然 這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久 你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年 上半年大概幾月"},{"start":89.198,"end":109.484,"text":"然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的演繹包括"},{"start":110.117,"end":118.598,"text":"哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分的權益我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰"},{"start":119.673,"end":143.917,"text":"你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做喔所以是勞動部主責因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是但是蠻奇怪的喔因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成喔她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關啊"},{"start":149.417,"end":168.639,"text":"對不對那其實今天你的報告也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題"},{"start":170.931,"end":180.548,"text":"我想要釐清這個問題 跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部"},{"start":181.823,"end":210.027,"text":"因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運它其實某部分它有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候"},{"start":210.547,"end":225.923,"text":"由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的部長我其實今天問這個就是想要確定這件事"},{"start":226.403,"end":244.043,"text":"的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調是然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛是好所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我"},{"start":245.925,"end":263.718,"text":"我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕"},{"start":264.398,"end":288.488,"text":"不然當初在民進黨執政 全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的 協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係 我們就先確認一下因為本席認為 其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬 僱傭 還是相關 或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大"},{"start":291.489,"end":314.25,"text":"都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡"},{"start":315.198,"end":331.746,"text":"我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以"},{"start":332.446,"end":358.873,"text":"我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴是因為比方說他的因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括院那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在現在的進度比較細節的部分"},{"start":359.353,"end":381.667,"text":"我跟委員說我自己也希望儘快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以儘快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望儘快其實還有一個原因"},{"start":382.688,"end":411.503,"text":"因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者那所以因為現在沒有一個"},{"start":412.723,"end":439.685,"text":"專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據喔所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高啦所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場喔所以我本席想要問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定"},{"start":440.425,"end":465.341,"text":"還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係那所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法"},{"start":466.348,"end":482.757,"text":"所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概出來我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下"},{"start":483.157,"end":505.605,"text":"然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這個這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程"},{"start":506.824,"end":529.262,"text":"對你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單三單四單都有可能大概啊我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對大概抓三單都有但是看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段"},{"start":531.564,"end":545.123,"text":"讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":546.184,"end":568.846,"text":"當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一"},{"start":570.106,"end":595.755,"text":"我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好 我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去了解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的"},{"start":596.495,"end":613.486,"text":"我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛"},{"start":614.676,"end":635.185,"text":"所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下"},{"start":638.53,"end":665.184,"text":"你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人"},{"start":666.624,"end":691.742,"text":"我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過 因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成"},{"start":693.092,"end":707.71,"text":"所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270啊"},{"start":709.191,"end":726.537,"text":"所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎"},{"start":727.057,"end":756.435,"text":"是 所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料"},{"start":758.378,"end":760.341,"text":"好那會後提供給本席好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。其實本席還是滿疑惑的，昨天在行政院總質詢的時候，我們在幫外送員講外送平台要立專法的時候，其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出你願意支持，你只有說會有指引，而且是明年1月才有指引，為什麼到今天突然支持，因為我昨天在現場，你並沒有說你會支持專法，包含我問院長，院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法，今天怎麼突然變了？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這絕對不是今天突然，如果是今天突然的話，那麼我們不用在幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容，其實昨天在院會上，我應該是有很清楚說我們對於要法制化，其實是抱持一個開放的態度，很願意和委員會一起來做審議。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你說開放的態度，其實跟今天還是有點不一樣，今天是很肯定，今天特別肯定，但是本席也很樂見，所以你是肯定支持往專法的這個方向，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這也是我們為什麼這幾個月一直在做法制化的研議。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問大概是多久，你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是上半年吧。"],["廖委員偉翔：上半年？大概是幾月？"],["洪部長申翰：五、六月。"],["廖委員偉翔：五、六月？那主要是由勞動部召集嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的會涉及到跨部會，當然從五、六月開始，我們就開始做相關的研議，包括哪些部分的條文要如何放進去，然後哪些部分的權益……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我的意思是，請問部長，那個時候的主責單位是誰？"],["洪部長申翰：你是說法的主責單位？"],["廖委員偉翔：就是推動這件事情的主責單位，是勞動部嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然是從部裡面先做。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是勞動部主責？"],["洪部長申翰：法的部分，因為委員的法……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為其實滿奇怪的……"],["洪部長申翰：因為委員提的法也都是放到勞動部。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，但是滿奇怪的，因為其實過去在修這個法的時候，當時的勞動部部長何佩珊是有公開坦承，他說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該由哪個部會擔任主管機關，對不對？其實今天你的報告跟你的講法也真的是有矛盾，這裡面寫：經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後，已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關，現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題。我想要釐清這個問題。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，外送平台目的事業主管的治理機關，目前行政院是指定交通部，因為這裡面涉及到我剛才提到的平台治理，包括貨運，其實某部分它有一些貨運的性質，也包括消費者，包括合作店家等等等，所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關，但是外送員權益的部分，當然是勞動部這邊。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我可以理解現在你們大概有個方向是，在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候，由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關。"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益。"],["廖委員偉翔：針對外送員嘛！對，我就想這個法的……"],["洪部長申翰：所以這個法的主管機關是我們，可是裡面也會涉及到其他的相關業務。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長，我其實今天問這個，就是想確定這件事，的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會，本席也認同，也需要跨部會趕快協調，然後因為你在修法過程中，會牽扯到其他的單位嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以本席要確定的是，是由勞動部主責，我們要有一個共識是這樣，就是現在開始……"],["洪部長申翰：這個法的主管機關，我們願意承擔，是由勞動部來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好！因為我要告訴部長的就是，其實過去六年多前開始討論以來，行政院一直是用這個理由在推諉，就是推拖時間，說因為這個權責不明，不知道從哪一個主管機關等等的問題，這一類的問題導致立法的延宕，不然當初在民進黨全面執政的情況之下，照理說，推動這個法案是相對比較容易協調的，也不用到今天。不過沒關係，我們就先確認一下，本席認為因為外送員是廣大群體，所以未來在立法上面不管是承攬、僱傭或是新型態，其實勞動部的權責都很大，都是主責很重要的一塊，所以現在我們有共識，沒有問題了。","另外，本席想要問的事情是，你說從上半年開始，目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了？總共召開了幾次會議？算不出來，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：算不出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：目前的細節到哪裡，你們目前進度到哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：我們基本上應該是基本條文的架構跟條文內容……"],["廖委員偉翔：都好了，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：到最後階段。"],["廖委員偉翔：到最後階段？最後階段是報行政院嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：還沒、還沒，現在是還在部裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：還在部裡面？"],["洪部長申翰：可是因為這些條文最後的內容，也還有要跨部會去做確認的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以？"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望三個月。"],["廖委員偉翔：三個月真的太久了，本席希望你們儘速，因為這樣，大家才可以共同一起來討論。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會儘速，我也希望儘速，可是因為行政部門要推出時還是有法制程序，比如還是必須要預告、還是必須要經過法規會的審議，然後包括院的……"],["廖委員偉翔：那麼時間點，你現在可以說明一下嗎？比如你們什麼時候要預告，你現在的進度中比較細節的部分。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，我自己也希望儘快，因為我們也不希望被認為是我們在拖延，所以儘快是我們在這上面最重要的原則，可是因為會有很多審議的時間，它不單單只是勞動部自己審議，所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票，說其他單位的審議一定多久或者只能多久。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我這裡希望儘快其實還有一個原因，除了拖了很久之外，其實地方政府都有自治條例，現在發生的問題就是有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候，有很多問題出現，我相信儘速的法制化，其實對於各個利害關係人都有好處，包含平台方、包含外送員、包含店家，還有包含消費者，因為現在沒有一個專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據，所以其實現在對於平台來講，它的法制風險不確定性也是非常的高。所以我想要進一步的問，因為最近臺灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決，明確傳達平台跟外送員之間的關係，可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場。所以本席想要問，你們目前在討論的過程當中，這個部分，你們打算怎麼界定？還是要參考所謂歐盟模式，就是用推定僱傭，可是平台負責去舉證它不是僱傭？"],["洪部長申翰：因為外送的議題裡面，確實有一個很重要的部分，就是怎麼去界定它的勞動關係，所以我們自己會認為，現在到底是僱傭或者是承攬，其實可能還有各方不同的看法，但是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以本席才想問你們目前的……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們認為我們可以……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你說條文架構大概出來了。"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以做的事情是，把外送員應該要有的權益、該有的權益保障，直接明確的、正面的把它訂定出來，用這個方式。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，當然。但是這個部分你可能要注意一下，而且這也滿重要，這也有關未來平台或者從業人員跟法院的關係，這也很重要。"],["洪部長申翰：就是外送員該有的權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來，我們用這個方式。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我們就講到最具體的權益部分好了，我想要請教一下部長，你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單？"],["洪部長申翰：其實這要看他是長程、短程。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你大概可以跑幾單？"],["洪部長申翰：多一點的話，可能兩單、三單、四單都有可能。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我覺得大概就是三單嘛，對不對？大概可以抓三單。"],["洪部長申翰：對，都有，但是這要看長程、短程。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為這也是外送員會詬病的地方，或是他們覺得演算法不透明的部分，像他們也有反映平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段，讓外送員有足夠的量跑單，所以明明從A點到B點很近，但是他會故意另外派一個比較長的單讓他在線，然後才可以去接下一個單，不知道部長懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：你懂我意思嘛，對不對？好，沒關係，這是演算法的部分，但我想講的是，其實有一個比較明確的訴求，就是他們希望保障基本費用至少不得低於時薪的三分之一，就是如果一個小時跑三單，他們希望基本費是不是能不低於時薪的三分之一？"],["洪部長申翰：基本上對於他們的整體報酬，我想應該要有一個最低的保障。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長嘴巴上說有大概的框架，但其實有幾個關鍵問題，看起來部長是回答不出來，所以希望你可以儘速回去了解，然後這個議題可能也是他們比較在乎的，所以……"],["洪部長申翰：在報酬的問題上，基本上，我們比較會認為針對整體報酬要有一個最低的基本保障，就是不能低於最低的基本保障。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你整體報酬的最低基本保障大概是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：比方像一般勞工的話，就是最低工資。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛講的也是時薪啊！所以我剛才才會問你，你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單，這也是他們介意的點。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案，但這是一個相關的數據，我只是想要了解你們現在的立法進度，可是一問下來，好像也不是很確定。","再來還有一個比較大的問題想請教，就是你們有沒有明確的統計、了解到底有多少從業人員是高度依賴，也就是全職在做，有多少比例是兼職？因為我在研究的時候有發現到不同的觀點、不同的數據，所以想請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事？因為這也是未來雙方爭執、爭吵的點，勞動部希望真正保障到的是哪一些人？"],["洪部長申翰：確實從數據上看來，現在兼職的人是比較多，大概是七成。"],["廖委員偉翔：又多了一個新數字，我跟你說，這又多了一個新數字，這部分你們可能要去多多掌握，如果是七成的話，代表高度依賴者是三成，但我也有看過四成、六成的說法，當然數字是浮動的，但也有平台業者說只有一成，看起來你們是完全沒有研究，這樣對於勞工的保障，我真的會有擔憂啦！因為包含平台業者……"],["洪部長申翰：我們目前是有數據……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，平台業者宣稱他們的時薪高達270元，不知道部長認不認同他們有高達270元的時薪？我是說平均時薪喔！"],["洪部長申翰：我想這都不是哪一方……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我要表達的是，你們掌握的數據要很精準、公開、透明。"],["洪部長申翰：如果要算出平均薪資，基本上，時薪都要有清楚的計算基礎……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以現在你們有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你們是主管機關，所以我相信你們的數據更精準，這部分希望部長可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前的研究數據，因為這很重要，是官方數據，也關乎未來討論的時候，有一個明確的科學、客觀、理性討論，不然就會變成各說各話。不知道部長可不可以提供這個相關資料給本席辦公室？"],["洪部長申翰：一些相關資料，我們會提供給委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，會後提供給本席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時38分）","繼續開會（10時50分）"],["主席（廖委員偉翔）：現在繼續開會。","請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}