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--> 00:00:07,064\n有請主委請吳主委\n\n2\n00:00:12,665 --> 00:00:42,189\n范委员好主委早安今天要先跟您请教师大女主案我想主委已经非常知道师大女主案我跟一些委员非常的关心就是有发生强迫抽血强迫实验却被轻放的体育研究界跟体育界的乱象我知道国科会已经有一些努力你们在7月29号就决议全面清查而且当时已经开了\n\n3\n00:00:42,589 --> 00:01:11,748\n两次的跨部会会议那8月7号我们立法院专报的时候那你们有承诺三件事情第一个是新定研究人员专业伦理守则那这边我肯定你们因为我看了一下已经定了那第二个你们承诺的是要修正国科会学术伦理案件处理及审议要点那这个部分也已经修了那第三个是要强化违反研究伦理的通案处理机制哦\n\n4\n00:01:12,148 --> 00:01:31,731\n这个部分我就有点不确定我们先回来看你的研究人员学术伦理守则跟刚刚讲的另外一个伦理案件处理审议要点我看到的事情是好像这样子的做法比较能够做到的是事后\n\n5\n00:01:32,412 --> 00:01:57,071\n以發生的事件的懲處的確懲處比較嚴格但是我比較關心的事情是如果我們只能夠在事件發生後做處理那會不會還是有憾事發生有沒有可能我們更重要的是要把一部分的心力是放在事前預防呢如果這樣來想的話我就會覺得一個你們沒有給我很清楚報告的是\n\n6\n00:01:57,711 --> 00:02:23,083\n跨部會的協力因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議那這個是你在9月16號我也肯定國科會有個記者會的報告裡面提到說你們會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益我的理解不知道對不對那個主委可以糾正我如果不對的話跨部會主要是跟衛福部跟教育部那主要是那未來還有運動部\n\n7\n00:02:24,924 --> 00:02:43,210\n還有運發部那主要是針對IRB的部分就是要定期查核然後衛福部跟教育部會叫上國科會是這樣子嗎是那這個部分您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎嗯\n\n8\n00:02:47,307 --> 00:03:05,448\n效果多大这个我当然没有办法完全保证因为特别是在大学国会支持的是大学的学术研究所以很多研究计划我们不希望轮违走回头路说变成是一个还一直不断在监管大学\n\n9\n00:03:06,529 --> 00:03:34,047\n这个已经就不是一个自由民主国家的做法所以我们会定定通用的学术伦理我是要一直不断地提醒学者一个自由民主的国家当然不能够假设每个人一开始都会犯罪所以就设很多的限制这个就阻碍学术发展所以我们的做法就是各部位现在我们政府可以努力的就是希望这个机制能够互相互通\n\n10\n00:03:34,787 --> 00:03:55,697\n一旦早期有一些蛛絲馬跡我們發現不對勁的時候就可以早期去處理因為這些您報告的東西目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議記錄中呈現我擔心如果衛福部或是教育部或者是未來我們的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話\n\n11\n00:03:56,337 --> 00:04:23,903\n那因為畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛那怎麼辦所以針對您記者會講的這個跨部會如何在事前審查然後逐年我們就是檢核他到底是不是有認真做這些事前審查的工作上就是防破網補破網的話是不是可以給我一個書面報告我們作為就是說國科會在這方面你們有努力的透過跨部會\n\n12\n00:04:25,103 --> 00:04:52,656\n来一起补破网好吗好谢谢委员那这个书面报告多久可以给我我们应该一个月内一个月内好那我们就等你的这个书面报告我希望国科会能够担任起领导的角色因为卫福部教育部跟我们的运动发展部业务都非常的多那研究伦理的部分我担心他们会忽略了好\n\n13\n00:04:53,796 --> 00:05:11,924\n學術倫理是國科會要努力那在IRB的部分就是人體相關的現在是主政的是衛福部是沒錯但是就是要跨部會努力你們報告中你們公開記者會也說要跨部會努力那再來我要針對不好意思\n\n14\n00:05:15,585 --> 00:05:40,654\n针对生养子女的困境还是要借还有一些的时间这是我今天的第二个主题不知道主委有没有读到我们中研院很优秀的物理研究所的副研究员林耿慧老师在母亲节分享自己的经验觉得我们国家的科研环境还是有缺乏性别敏感度\n\n15\n00:05:41,334 --> 00:06:08,624\n然後提到她自己就是從過去被國科會鼓勵的優秀的女博士生到生育前其實研究表現都非常的好可是她後來2012年生了一胎2015年生了雙胞胎之後她在被審查的時候審查委員顯然缺乏性別敏感度質疑她的生產力下降那後來就沒有得到就是研究計畫那她用\n\n16\n00:06:09,504 --> 00:06:26,522\n研究的方式认为国科会应该要去研究生一胎生二胎是不是影响了女性科研人才的出版可是在研究审查方面你们目前制度做得还不够然后他有提到就是\n\n17\n00:06:27,763 --> 00:06:55,002\n其实科研人才里面有三分之一是女性可是成为国科会的计划主持人就降到四分之一那这部分不知道那个主委有没有看过这篇文章或者是听过因为是非常多人分享这样子一个严谨的学术文章非常的长还这么多人分享并不容易表示他说出了部分人的心声主委有知道这篇文章吗\n\n18\n00:06:55,798 --> 00:07:15,558\n报告人我没有读过那没关系主委之后可以去看一下好不好因为他这里面又用研究举证的方式觉得国科会应该要去研究研究人员特别是女性生一胎生两胎生三胎是不是对她的生产量有影响那如何不要流失这些人才\n\n19\n00:07:16,058 --> 00:07:31,878\n而是支持她不是在审查的过程中因为她一小段时间的表现就拿不到计划最后就恶性循环反而是国家培养女性优秀人才的一个损失谢谢委员提醒\n\n20\n00:07:32,839 --> 00:07:57,346\n那我知道你们其实有做一个就是补救啦就是说就这个科技领域的部分如果生一胎的话他的绩效认定可以从一般的五年增加两年那你们今天的报告中也有就生两胎的话就五加二加二那但是这位研究员提出来说人文领域不知道是不是因为女性研究员比较多他的一个\n\n21\n00:07:58,513 --> 00:08:18,435\n看的时间就可以是10年那你这边还5加2那像对方这位这位发文的人他第二胎是双胞胎对不对所以看起来你整个友善性别友善措施还是蛮不够的你目前其实是有一个怀孕及育儿随到随省\n\n22\n00:08:19,536 --> 00:08:44,285\n然后到怀孕到子女满三岁之前就可以那另外研讨会你有补助托育经费让就是需要带小孩的不分男女就是家长都可以友善小孩还有一个鼓励女性的STIRN的这个计划那但是呢你们国科会自己有委托人做生育支持措施成效分析报告这是2022年的耶\n\n23\n00:08:45,925 --> 00:09:11,140\n今年是2025年嘛主委这个分析报告您有没有看过抱歉没有不过我同意委员的观点我想在我们现在因为少子女的状况我们希望能够挽回这个颓势我们的确要多照顾一下友善生育而且这个如果因为它\n\n24\n00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:38,357\n我最近才看了局里夫人的传记电影这科学界就是充满了性别歧视她是特别特别优秀而且有一个非常支持她的先生跟家庭才能够就是说不断地突出所以我觉得不要让我们优秀的女性科研人才觉得被制度歧视没有得到鼓励跟支持那这是也是流失国家的优秀人才\n\n25\n00:09:38,857 --> 00:10:02,078\n那既然你們都委託人做這個生育支持措施成效分析報告做了都三年了主委還沒有機會看到那是把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估好不好一個是說支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有到二到三歲應該放寬到五到六歲另外是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間的女性她就執行多年期計劃\n\n26\n00:10:02,819 --> 00:10:22,863\n他如果本来很优秀不会因为生育他就不优秀嘛只是那段时间可能会有一些些生养家庭跟职涯的平衡那但是以我们优秀的居里夫人我记得她生了两个小孩她还是依然优秀好不好那是不是那这个可以多久之内给我一个报告呢\n\n27\n00:10:23,479 --> 00:10:42,697\n好我们一样在一个月内一个月内好把你们自己请人做分析的生育支持措施里面的政策建议至少这两点好好评估一下是不是能够推出好不好还有这个双胞胎的议题那你也一起研究好谢谢委员谢谢范云委员质询主委请回座\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n330\t7064\t有請主委請吳主委\n12665\t42189\t范委员好主委早安今天要先跟您请教师大女主案我想主委已经非常知道师大女主案我跟一些委员非常的关心就是有发生强迫抽血强迫实验却被轻放的体育研究界跟体育界的乱象我知道国科会已经有一些努力你们在7月29号就决议全面清查而且当时已经开了\n42589\t71748\t两次的跨部会会议那8月7号我们立法院专报的时候那你们有承诺三件事情第一个是新定研究人员专业伦理守则那这边我肯定你们因为我看了一下已经定了那第二个你们承诺的是要修正国科会学术伦理案件处理及审议要点那这个部分也已经修了那第三个是要强化违反研究伦理的通案处理机制哦\n72148\t91731\t这个部分我就有点不确定我们先回来看你的研究人员学术伦理守则跟刚刚讲的另外一个伦理案件处理审议要点我看到的事情是好像这样子的做法比较能够做到的是事后\n92412\t117071\t以發生的事件的懲處的確懲處比較嚴格但是我比較關心的事情是如果我們只能夠在事件發生後做處理那會不會還是有憾事發生有沒有可能我們更重要的是要把一部分的心力是放在事前預防呢如果這樣來想的話我就會覺得一個你們沒有給我很清楚報告的是\n117711\t143083\t跨部會的協力因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議那這個是你在9月16號我也肯定國科會有個記者會的報告裡面提到說你們會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益我的理解不知道對不對那個主委可以糾正我如果不對的話跨部會主要是跟衛福部跟教育部那主要是那未來還有運動部\n144924\t163210\t還有運發部那主要是針對IRB的部分就是要定期查核然後衛福部跟教育部會叫上國科會是這樣子嗎是那這個部分您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎嗯\n167307\t185448\t效果多大这个我当然没有办法完全保证因为特别是在大学国会支持的是大学的学术研究所以很多研究计划我们不希望轮违走回头路说变成是一个还一直不断在监管大学\n186529\t214047\t这个已经就不是一个自由民主国家的做法所以我们会定定通用的学术伦理我是要一直不断地提醒学者一个自由民主的国家当然不能够假设每个人一开始都会犯罪所以就设很多的限制这个就阻碍学术发展所以我们的做法就是各部位现在我们政府可以努力的就是希望这个机制能够互相互通\n214787\t235697\t一旦早期有一些蛛絲馬跡我們發現不對勁的時候就可以早期去處理因為這些您報告的東西目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議記錄中呈現我擔心如果衛福部或是教育部或者是未來我們的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話\n236337\t263903\t那因為畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛那怎麼辦所以針對您記者會講的這個跨部會如何在事前審查然後逐年我們就是檢核他到底是不是有認真做這些事前審查的工作上就是防破網補破網的話是不是可以給我一個書面報告我們作為就是說國科會在這方面你們有努力的透過跨部會\n265103\t292656\t来一起补破网好吗好谢谢委员那这个书面报告多久可以给我我们应该一个月内一个月内好那我们就等你的这个书面报告我希望国科会能够担任起领导的角色因为卫福部教育部跟我们的运动发展部业务都非常的多那研究伦理的部分我担心他们会忽略了好\n293796\t311924\t學術倫理是國科會要努力那在IRB的部分就是人體相關的現在是主政的是衛福部是沒錯但是就是要跨部會努力你們報告中你們公開記者會也說要跨部會努力那再來我要針對不好意思\n315585\t340654\t针对生养子女的困境还是要借还有一些的时间这是我今天的第二个主题不知道主委有没有读到我们中研院很优秀的物理研究所的副研究员林耿慧老师在母亲节分享自己的经验觉得我们国家的科研环境还是有缺乏性别敏感度\n341334\t368624\t然後提到她自己就是從過去被國科會鼓勵的優秀的女博士生到生育前其實研究表現都非常的好可是她後來2012年生了一胎2015年生了雙胞胎之後她在被審查的時候審查委員顯然缺乏性別敏感度質疑她的生產力下降那後來就沒有得到就是研究計畫那她用\n369504\t386522\t研究的方式认为国科会应该要去研究生一胎生二胎是不是影响了女性科研人才的出版可是在研究审查方面你们目前制度做得还不够然后他有提到就是\n387763\t415002\t其实科研人才里面有三分之一是女性可是成为国科会的计划主持人就降到四分之一那这部分不知道那个主委有没有看过这篇文章或者是听过因为是非常多人分享这样子一个严谨的学术文章非常的长还这么多人分享并不容易表示他说出了部分人的心声主委有知道这篇文章吗\n415798\t435558\t报告人我没有读过那没关系主委之后可以去看一下好不好因为他这里面又用研究举证的方式觉得国科会应该要去研究研究人员特别是女性生一胎生两胎生三胎是不是对她的生产量有影响那如何不要流失这些人才\n436058\t451878\t而是支持她不是在审查的过程中因为她一小段时间的表现就拿不到计划最后就恶性循环反而是国家培养女性优秀人才的一个损失谢谢委员提醒\n452839\t477346\t那我知道你们其实有做一个就是补救啦就是说就这个科技领域的部分如果生一胎的话他的绩效认定可以从一般的五年增加两年那你们今天的报告中也有就生两胎的话就五加二加二那但是这位研究员提出来说人文领域不知道是不是因为女性研究员比较多他的一个\n478513\t498435\t看的时间就可以是10年那你这边还5加2那像对方这位这位发文的人他第二胎是双胞胎对不对所以看起来你整个友善性别友善措施还是蛮不够的你目前其实是有一个怀孕及育儿随到随省\n499536\t524285\t然后到怀孕到子女满三岁之前就可以那另外研讨会你有补助托育经费让就是需要带小孩的不分男女就是家长都可以友善小孩还有一个鼓励女性的STIRN的这个计划那但是呢你们国科会自己有委托人做生育支持措施成效分析报告这是2022年的耶\n525925\t551140\t今年是2025年嘛 主委这个分析报告您有没有看过抱歉没有不过我同意委员的观点我想在我们现在因为少子女的状况我们希望能够挽回这个颓势我们的确要多照顾一下友善生育而且这个如果因为它\n551920\t578357\t我最近才看了局里夫人的传记电影这科学界就是充满了性别歧视她是特别特别优秀而且有一个非常支持她的先生跟家庭才能够就是说不断地突出所以我觉得不要让我们优秀的女性科研人才觉得被制度歧视没有得到鼓励跟支持那这是也是流失国家的优秀人才\n578857\t602078\t那既然你們都委託人做這個生育支持措施成效分析報告做了都三年了主委還沒有機會看到那是把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估好不好一個是說支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有到二到三歲應該放寬到五到六歲另外是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間的女性她就執行多年期計劃\n602819\t622863\t他如果本来很优秀不会因为生育他就不优秀嘛只是那段时间可能会有一些些生养家庭跟职涯的平衡那但是以我们优秀的居里夫人我记得她生了两个小孩她还是依然优秀好不好那是不是那这个可以多久之内给我一个报告呢\n623479\t642697\t好 我们一样在一个月内一个月内好 把你们自己请人做分析的生育支持措施里面的政策建议至少这两点好好评估一下是不是能够推出 好不好还有这个双胞胎的议题那你也一起研究好 谢谢委员谢谢范云委员质询主委请回座\n","txt":"有請主委請吳主委\n范委员好主委早安今天要先跟您请教师大女主案我想主委已经非常知道师大女主案我跟一些委员非常的关心就是有发生强迫抽血强迫实验却被轻放的体育研究界跟体育界的乱象我知道国科会已经有一些努力你们在7月29号就决议全面清查而且当时已经开了\n两次的跨部会会议那8月7号我们立法院专报的时候那你们有承诺三件事情第一个是新定研究人员专业伦理守则那这边我肯定你们因为我看了一下已经定了那第二个你们承诺的是要修正国科会学术伦理案件处理及审议要点那这个部分也已经修了那第三个是要强化违反研究伦理的通案处理机制哦\n这个部分我就有点不确定我们先回来看你的研究人员学术伦理守则跟刚刚讲的另外一个伦理案件处理审议要点我看到的事情是好像这样子的做法比较能够做到的是事后\n以發生的事件的懲處的確懲處比較嚴格但是我比較關心的事情是如果我們只能夠在事件發生後做處理那會不會還是有憾事發生有沒有可能我們更重要的是要把一部分的心力是放在事前預防呢如果這樣來想的話我就會覺得一個你們沒有給我很清楚報告的是\n跨部會的協力因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議那這個是你在9月16號我也肯定國科會有個記者會的報告裡面提到說你們會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益我的理解不知道對不對那個主委可以糾正我如果不對的話跨部會主要是跟衛福部跟教育部那主要是那未來還有運動部\n還有運發部那主要是針對IRB的部分就是要定期查核然後衛福部跟教育部會叫上國科會是這樣子嗎是那這個部分您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎嗯\n效果多大这个我当然没有办法完全保证因为特别是在大学国会支持的是大学的学术研究所以很多研究计划我们不希望轮违走回头路说变成是一个还一直不断在监管大学\n这个已经就不是一个自由民主国家的做法所以我们会定定通用的学术伦理我是要一直不断地提醒学者一个自由民主的国家当然不能够假设每个人一开始都会犯罪所以就设很多的限制这个就阻碍学术发展所以我们的做法就是各部位现在我们政府可以努力的就是希望这个机制能够互相互通\n一旦早期有一些蛛絲馬跡我們發現不對勁的時候就可以早期去處理因為這些您報告的東西目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議記錄中呈現我擔心如果衛福部或是教育部或者是未來我們的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話\n那因為畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛那怎麼辦所以針對您記者會講的這個跨部會如何在事前審查然後逐年我們就是檢核他到底是不是有認真做這些事前審查的工作上就是防破網補破網的話是不是可以給我一個書面報告我們作為就是說國科會在這方面你們有努力的透過跨部會\n来一起补破网好吗好谢谢委员那这个书面报告多久可以给我我们应该一个月内一个月内好那我们就等你的这个书面报告我希望国科会能够担任起领导的角色因为卫福部教育部跟我们的运动发展部业务都非常的多那研究伦理的部分我担心他们会忽略了好\n學術倫理是國科會要努力那在IRB的部分就是人體相關的現在是主政的是衛福部是沒錯但是就是要跨部會努力你們報告中你們公開記者會也說要跨部會努力那再來我要針對不好意思\n针对生养子女的困境还是要借还有一些的时间这是我今天的第二个主题不知道主委有没有读到我们中研院很优秀的物理研究所的副研究员林耿慧老师在母亲节分享自己的经验觉得我们国家的科研环境还是有缺乏性别敏感度\n然後提到她自己就是從過去被國科會鼓勵的優秀的女博士生到生育前其實研究表現都非常的好可是她後來2012年生了一胎2015年生了雙胞胎之後她在被審查的時候審查委員顯然缺乏性別敏感度質疑她的生產力下降那後來就沒有得到就是研究計畫那她用\n研究的方式认为国科会应该要去研究生一胎生二胎是不是影响了女性科研人才的出版可是在研究审查方面你们目前制度做得还不够然后他有提到就是\n其实科研人才里面有三分之一是女性可是成为国科会的计划主持人就降到四分之一那这部分不知道那个主委有没有看过这篇文章或者是听过因为是非常多人分享这样子一个严谨的学术文章非常的长还这么多人分享并不容易表示他说出了部分人的心声主委有知道这篇文章吗\n报告人我没有读过那没关系主委之后可以去看一下好不好因为他这里面又用研究举证的方式觉得国科会应该要去研究研究人员特别是女性生一胎生两胎生三胎是不是对她的生产量有影响那如何不要流失这些人才\n而是支持她不是在审查的过程中因为她一小段时间的表现就拿不到计划最后就恶性循环反而是国家培养女性优秀人才的一个损失谢谢委员提醒\n那我知道你们其实有做一个就是补救啦就是说就这个科技领域的部分如果生一胎的话他的绩效认定可以从一般的五年增加两年那你们今天的报告中也有就生两胎的话就五加二加二那但是这位研究员提出来说人文领域不知道是不是因为女性研究员比较多他的一个\n看的时间就可以是10年那你这边还5加2那像对方这位这位发文的人他第二胎是双胞胎对不对所以看起来你整个友善性别友善措施还是蛮不够的你目前其实是有一个怀孕及育儿随到随省\n然后到怀孕到子女满三岁之前就可以那另外研讨会你有补助托育经费让就是需要带小孩的不分男女就是家长都可以友善小孩还有一个鼓励女性的STIRN的这个计划那但是呢你们国科会自己有委托人做生育支持措施成效分析报告这是2022年的耶\n今年是2025年嘛 主委这个分析报告您有没有看过抱歉没有不过我同意委员的观点我想在我们现在因为少子女的状况我们希望能够挽回这个颓势我们的确要多照顾一下友善生育而且这个如果因为它\n我最近才看了局里夫人的传记电影这科学界就是充满了性别歧视她是特别特别优秀而且有一个非常支持她的先生跟家庭才能够就是说不断地突出所以我觉得不要让我们优秀的女性科研人才觉得被制度歧视没有得到鼓励跟支持那这是也是流失国家的优秀人才\n那既然你們都委託人做這個生育支持措施成效分析報告做了都三年了主委還沒有機會看到那是把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估好不好一個是說支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有到二到三歲應該放寬到五到六歲另外是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間的女性她就執行多年期計劃\n他如果本来很优秀不会因为生育他就不优秀嘛只是那段时间可能会有一些些生养家庭跟职涯的平衡那但是以我们优秀的居里夫人我记得她生了两个小孩她还是依然优秀好不好那是不是那这个可以多久之内给我一个报告呢\n好 我们一样在一个月内一个月内好 把你们自己请人做分析的生育支持措施里面的政策建议至少这两点好好评估一下是不是能够推出 好不好还有这个双胞胎的议题那你也一起研究好 谢谢委员谢谢范云委员质询主委请回座\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.330 --> 00:07.064\n有請主委請吳主委\n\n00:12.665 --> 00:42.189\n范委员好主委早安今天要先跟您请教师大女主案我想主委已经非常知道师大女主案我跟一些委员非常的关心就是有发生强迫抽血强迫实验却被轻放的体育研究界跟体育界的乱象我知道国科会已经有一些努力你们在7月29号就决议全面清查而且当时已经开了\n\n00:42.589 --> 01:11.748\n两次的跨部会会议那8月7号我们立法院专报的时候那你们有承诺三件事情第一个是新定研究人员专业伦理守则那这边我肯定你们因为我看了一下已经定了那第二个你们承诺的是要修正国科会学术伦理案件处理及审议要点那这个部分也已经修了那第三个是要强化违反研究伦理的通案处理机制哦\n\n01:12.148 --> 01:31.731\n这个部分我就有点不确定我们先回来看你的研究人员学术伦理守则跟刚刚讲的另外一个伦理案件处理审议要点我看到的事情是好像这样子的做法比较能够做到的是事后\n\n01:32.412 --> 01:57.071\n以發生的事件的懲處的確懲處比較嚴格但是我比較關心的事情是如果我們只能夠在事件發生後做處理那會不會還是有憾事發生有沒有可能我們更重要的是要把一部分的心力是放在事前預防呢如果這樣來想的話我就會覺得一個你們沒有給我很清楚報告的是\n\n01:57.711 --> 02:23.083\n跨部會的協力因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議那這個是你在9月16號我也肯定國科會有個記者會的報告裡面提到說你們會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益我的理解不知道對不對那個主委可以糾正我如果不對的話跨部會主要是跟衛福部跟教育部那主要是那未來還有運動部\n\n02:24.924 --> 02:43.210\n還有運發部那主要是針對IRB的部分就是要定期查核然後衛福部跟教育部會叫上國科會是這樣子嗎是那這個部分您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎嗯\n\n02:47.307 --> 03:05.448\n效果多大这个我当然没有办法完全保证因为特别是在大学国会支持的是大学的学术研究所以很多研究计划我们不希望轮违走回头路说变成是一个还一直不断在监管大学\n\n03:06.529 --> 03:34.047\n这个已经就不是一个自由民主国家的做法所以我们会定定通用的学术伦理我是要一直不断地提醒学者一个自由民主的国家当然不能够假设每个人一开始都会犯罪所以就设很多的限制这个就阻碍学术发展所以我们的做法就是各部位现在我们政府可以努力的就是希望这个机制能够互相互通\n\n03:34.787 --> 03:55.697\n一旦早期有一些蛛絲馬跡我們發現不對勁的時候就可以早期去處理因為這些您報告的東西目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議記錄中呈現我擔心如果衛福部或是教育部或者是未來我們的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話\n\n03:56.337 --> 04:23.903\n那因為畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛那怎麼辦所以針對您記者會講的這個跨部會如何在事前審查然後逐年我們就是檢核他到底是不是有認真做這些事前審查的工作上就是防破網補破網的話是不是可以給我一個書面報告我們作為就是說國科會在這方面你們有努力的透過跨部會\n\n04:25.103 --> 04:52.656\n来一起补破网好吗好谢谢委员那这个书面报告多久可以给我我们应该一个月内一个月内好那我们就等你的这个书面报告我希望国科会能够担任起领导的角色因为卫福部教育部跟我们的运动发展部业务都非常的多那研究伦理的部分我担心他们会忽略了好\n\n04:53.796 --> 05:11.924\n學術倫理是國科會要努力那在IRB的部分就是人體相關的現在是主政的是衛福部是沒錯但是就是要跨部會努力你們報告中你們公開記者會也說要跨部會努力那再來我要針對不好意思\n\n05:15.585 --> 05:40.654\n针对生养子女的困境还是要借还有一些的时间这是我今天的第二个主题不知道主委有没有读到我们中研院很优秀的物理研究所的副研究员林耿慧老师在母亲节分享自己的经验觉得我们国家的科研环境还是有缺乏性别敏感度\n\n05:41.334 --> 06:08.624\n然後提到她自己就是從過去被國科會鼓勵的優秀的女博士生到生育前其實研究表現都非常的好可是她後來2012年生了一胎2015年生了雙胞胎之後她在被審查的時候審查委員顯然缺乏性別敏感度質疑她的生產力下降那後來就沒有得到就是研究計畫那她用\n\n06:09.504 --> 06:26.522\n研究的方式认为国科会应该要去研究生一胎生二胎是不是影响了女性科研人才的出版可是在研究审查方面你们目前制度做得还不够然后他有提到就是\n\n06:27.763 --> 06:55.002\n其实科研人才里面有三分之一是女性可是成为国科会的计划主持人就降到四分之一那这部分不知道那个主委有没有看过这篇文章或者是听过因为是非常多人分享这样子一个严谨的学术文章非常的长还这么多人分享并不容易表示他说出了部分人的心声主委有知道这篇文章吗\n\n06:55.798 --> 07:15.558\n报告人我没有读过那没关系主委之后可以去看一下好不好因为他这里面又用研究举证的方式觉得国科会应该要去研究研究人员特别是女性生一胎生两胎生三胎是不是对她的生产量有影响那如何不要流失这些人才\n\n07:16.058 --> 07:31.878\n而是支持她不是在审查的过程中因为她一小段时间的表现就拿不到计划最后就恶性循环反而是国家培养女性优秀人才的一个损失谢谢委员提醒\n\n07:32.839 --> 07:57.346\n那我知道你们其实有做一个就是补救啦就是说就这个科技领域的部分如果生一胎的话他的绩效认定可以从一般的五年增加两年那你们今天的报告中也有就生两胎的话就五加二加二那但是这位研究员提出来说人文领域不知道是不是因为女性研究员比较多他的一个\n\n07:58.513 --> 08:18.435\n看的时间就可以是10年那你这边还5加2那像对方这位这位发文的人他第二胎是双胞胎对不对所以看起来你整个友善性别友善措施还是蛮不够的你目前其实是有一个怀孕及育儿随到随省\n\n08:19.536 --> 08:44.285\n然后到怀孕到子女满三岁之前就可以那另外研讨会你有补助托育经费让就是需要带小孩的不分男女就是家长都可以友善小孩还有一个鼓励女性的STIRN的这个计划那但是呢你们国科会自己有委托人做生育支持措施成效分析报告这是2022年的耶\n\n08:45.925 --> 09:11.140\n今年是2025年嘛主委这个分析报告您有没有看过抱歉没有不过我同意委员的观点我想在我们现在因为少子女的状况我们希望能够挽回这个颓势我们的确要多照顾一下友善生育而且这个如果因为它\n\n09:11.920 --> 09:38.357\n我最近才看了局里夫人的传记电影这科学界就是充满了性别歧视她是特别特别优秀而且有一个非常支持她的先生跟家庭才能够就是说不断地突出所以我觉得不要让我们优秀的女性科研人才觉得被制度歧视没有得到鼓励跟支持那这是也是流失国家的优秀人才\n\n09:38.857 --> 10:02.078\n那既然你們都委託人做這個生育支持措施成效分析報告做了都三年了主委還沒有機會看到那是把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估好不好一個是說支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有到二到三歲應該放寬到五到六歲另外是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間的女性她就執行多年期計劃\n\n10:02.819 --> 10:22.863\n他如果本来很优秀不会因为生育他就不优秀嘛只是那段时间可能会有一些些生养家庭跟职涯的平衡那但是以我们优秀的居里夫人我记得她生了两个小孩她还是依然优秀好不好那是不是那这个可以多久之内给我一个报告呢\n\n10:23.479 --> 10:42.697\n好我们一样在一个月内一个月内好把你们自己请人做分析的生育支持措施里面的政策建议至少这两点好好评估一下是不是能够推出好不好还有这个双胞胎的议题那你也一起研究好谢谢委员谢谢范云委员质询主委请回座\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.33,"end":7.064,"text":"有請主委請吳主委"},{"start":12.665,"end":42.189,"text":"范委员好主委早安今天要先跟您请教师大女主案我想主委已经非常知道师大女主案我跟一些委员非常的关心就是有发生强迫抽血强迫实验却被轻放的体育研究界跟体育界的乱象我知道国科会已经有一些努力你们在7月29号就决议全面清查而且当时已经开了"},{"start":42.589,"end":71.748,"text":"两次的跨部会会议那8月7号我们立法院专报的时候那你们有承诺三件事情第一个是新定研究人员专业伦理守则那这边我肯定你们因为我看了一下已经定了那第二个你们承诺的是要修正国科会学术伦理案件处理及审议要点那这个部分也已经修了那第三个是要强化违反研究伦理的通案处理机制哦"},{"start":72.148,"end":91.731,"text":"这个部分我就有点不确定我们先回来看你的研究人员学术伦理守则跟刚刚讲的另外一个伦理案件处理审议要点我看到的事情是好像这样子的做法比较能够做到的是事后"},{"start":92.412,"end":117.071,"text":"以發生的事件的懲處的確懲處比較嚴格但是我比較關心的事情是如果我們只能夠在事件發生後做處理那會不會還是有憾事發生有沒有可能我們更重要的是要把一部分的心力是放在事前預防呢如果這樣來想的話我就會覺得一個你們沒有給我很清楚報告的是"},{"start":117.711,"end":143.083,"text":"跨部會的協力因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議那這個是你在9月16號我也肯定國科會有個記者會的報告裡面提到說你們會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益我的理解不知道對不對那個主委可以糾正我如果不對的話跨部會主要是跟衛福部跟教育部那主要是那未來還有運動部"},{"start":144.924,"end":163.21,"text":"還有運發部那主要是針對IRB的部分就是要定期查核然後衛福部跟教育部會叫上國科會是這樣子嗎是那這個部分您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎嗯"},{"start":167.307,"end":185.448,"text":"效果多大这个我当然没有办法完全保证因为特别是在大学国会支持的是大学的学术研究所以很多研究计划我们不希望轮违走回头路说变成是一个还一直不断在监管大学"},{"start":186.529,"end":214.047,"text":"这个已经就不是一个自由民主国家的做法所以我们会定定通用的学术伦理我是要一直不断地提醒学者一个自由民主的国家当然不能够假设每个人一开始都会犯罪所以就设很多的限制这个就阻碍学术发展所以我们的做法就是各部位现在我们政府可以努力的就是希望这个机制能够互相互通"},{"start":214.787,"end":235.697,"text":"一旦早期有一些蛛絲馬跡我們發現不對勁的時候就可以早期去處理因為這些您報告的東西目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議記錄中呈現我擔心如果衛福部或是教育部或者是未來我們的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話"},{"start":236.337,"end":263.903,"text":"那因為畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛那怎麼辦所以針對您記者會講的這個跨部會如何在事前審查然後逐年我們就是檢核他到底是不是有認真做這些事前審查的工作上就是防破網補破網的話是不是可以給我一個書面報告我們作為就是說國科會在這方面你們有努力的透過跨部會"},{"start":265.103,"end":292.656,"text":"来一起补破网好吗好谢谢委员那这个书面报告多久可以给我我们应该一个月内一个月内好那我们就等你的这个书面报告我希望国科会能够担任起领导的角色因为卫福部教育部跟我们的运动发展部业务都非常的多那研究伦理的部分我担心他们会忽略了好"},{"start":293.796,"end":311.924,"text":"學術倫理是國科會要努力那在IRB的部分就是人體相關的現在是主政的是衛福部是沒錯但是就是要跨部會努力你們報告中你們公開記者會也說要跨部會努力那再來我要針對不好意思"},{"start":315.585,"end":340.654,"text":"针对生养子女的困境还是要借还有一些的时间这是我今天的第二个主题不知道主委有没有读到我们中研院很优秀的物理研究所的副研究员林耿慧老师在母亲节分享自己的经验觉得我们国家的科研环境还是有缺乏性别敏感度"},{"start":341.334,"end":368.624,"text":"然後提到她自己就是從過去被國科會鼓勵的優秀的女博士生到生育前其實研究表現都非常的好可是她後來2012年生了一胎2015年生了雙胞胎之後她在被審查的時候審查委員顯然缺乏性別敏感度質疑她的生產力下降那後來就沒有得到就是研究計畫那她用"},{"start":369.504,"end":386.522,"text":"研究的方式认为国科会应该要去研究生一胎生二胎是不是影响了女性科研人才的出版可是在研究审查方面你们目前制度做得还不够然后他有提到就是"},{"start":387.763,"end":415.002,"text":"其实科研人才里面有三分之一是女性可是成为国科会的计划主持人就降到四分之一那这部分不知道那个主委有没有看过这篇文章或者是听过因为是非常多人分享这样子一个严谨的学术文章非常的长还这么多人分享并不容易表示他说出了部分人的心声主委有知道这篇文章吗"},{"start":415.798,"end":435.558,"text":"报告人我没有读过那没关系主委之后可以去看一下好不好因为他这里面又用研究举证的方式觉得国科会应该要去研究研究人员特别是女性生一胎生两胎生三胎是不是对她的生产量有影响那如何不要流失这些人才"},{"start":436.058,"end":451.878,"text":"而是支持她不是在审查的过程中因为她一小段时间的表现就拿不到计划最后就恶性循环反而是国家培养女性优秀人才的一个损失谢谢委员提醒"},{"start":452.839,"end":477.346,"text":"那我知道你们其实有做一个就是补救啦就是说就这个科技领域的部分如果生一胎的话他的绩效认定可以从一般的五年增加两年那你们今天的报告中也有就生两胎的话就五加二加二那但是这位研究员提出来说人文领域不知道是不是因为女性研究员比较多他的一个"},{"start":478.513,"end":498.435,"text":"看的时间就可以是10年那你这边还5加2那像对方这位这位发文的人他第二胎是双胞胎对不对所以看起来你整个友善性别友善措施还是蛮不够的你目前其实是有一个怀孕及育儿随到随省"},{"start":499.536,"end":524.285,"text":"然后到怀孕到子女满三岁之前就可以那另外研讨会你有补助托育经费让就是需要带小孩的不分男女就是家长都可以友善小孩还有一个鼓励女性的STIRN的这个计划那但是呢你们国科会自己有委托人做生育支持措施成效分析报告这是2022年的耶"},{"start":525.925,"end":551.14,"text":"今年是2025年嘛 主委这个分析报告您有没有看过抱歉没有不过我同意委员的观点我想在我们现在因为少子女的状况我们希望能够挽回这个颓势我们的确要多照顾一下友善生育而且这个如果因为它"},{"start":551.92,"end":578.357,"text":"我最近才看了局里夫人的传记电影这科学界就是充满了性别歧视她是特别特别优秀而且有一个非常支持她的先生跟家庭才能够就是说不断地突出所以我觉得不要让我们优秀的女性科研人才觉得被制度歧视没有得到鼓励跟支持那这是也是流失国家的优秀人才"},{"start":578.857,"end":602.078,"text":"那既然你們都委託人做這個生育支持措施成效分析報告做了都三年了主委還沒有機會看到那是把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估好不好一個是說支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有到二到三歲應該放寬到五到六歲另外是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間的女性她就執行多年期計劃"},{"start":602.819,"end":622.863,"text":"他如果本来很优秀不会因为生育他就不优秀嘛只是那段时间可能会有一些些生养家庭跟职涯的平衡那但是以我们优秀的居里夫人我记得她生了两个小孩她还是依然优秀好不好那是不是那这个可以多久之内给我一个报告呢"},{"start":623.479,"end":642.697,"text":"好 我们一样在一个月内一个月内好 把你们自己请人做分析的生育支持措施里面的政策建议至少这两点好好评估一下是不是能够推出 好不好还有这个双胞胎的议题那你也一起研究好 谢谢委员谢谢范云委员质询主委请回座"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時34分）有請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。今天要先跟您請教師大女足案。我想主委已經非常了解師大女足案，我跟一些委員非常地關心，就是有發生強迫抽血、強迫實驗卻被輕放的研究界跟體育界亂象。我知道國科會已經做一些努力，你們在7月29日就決議全面清查，而且當時已經開了兩次的跨部會會議。8月7日立法院專報的時候，你們有承諾三件事情：第一個是新訂研究人員專業倫理守則，這部分我肯定你們，因為已經訂了；第二個，你們承諾要修正國科會學術倫理案件處理及審議要點，這個部分也已經修了；第三個是要強化違反研究倫理的通案處理機制，這個部分我就有點不確定。","我們先看研究人員學術倫理守則跟剛剛講的倫理案件處理審議要點，我看到的是，好像這樣子的做法比較能做到事後已發生事件的懲處。懲處的確是比較嚴格，但是我比較關心的是，如果只能在事件發生後作處理，會不會還是有憾事發生？更重要的是，有沒有可能把一部分的心力放在事前預防呢？如果這樣想的話，我覺得你們沒有很清楚報告的是關於跨部會的協力。因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議，我也肯定國科會在9月16日記者會的報告提到，會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益，我的理解不知道對不對？主委可以糾正我，如果不對的話，跨部會主要是跟衛福部、教育部嘛！那主要是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：未來還有運動部。"],["范委員雲：還有運動部。主要是針對IRB的部分，就是要定期查核，然後衛福部跟教育部會交上國科會，是這樣子嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["范委員雲：關於這個部分，您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：效果多大，我當然沒有辦法完全保證啦！特別是國科會支持的是大學的學術研究，針對很多研究計畫我們不希望走回頭路，變成還是一直不斷地在監管大學，這個就已經不是一個自由民主國家的做法，所以我們訂定通用的學術倫理規定，是要一直不斷地提醒學者。一個自由民主的國家，當然不能夠假設每個人一開始都會犯罪而設很多的限制，這個就會阻礙學術發展，所以現在我們政府可以努力的就是希望這個機制能夠互相流通，一旦早期出現一些蛛絲馬跡，我們發現不對勁的時候就可以及早去處理。"],["范委員雲：因為您報告的這一些東西，目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議紀錄中呈現，我擔心如果衛福部、教育部或者是未來的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話……畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛！那怎麼辦？所以針對您記者會講的跨部會，如何在事前審查？然後逐年檢核到底是不是有認真做事前審查的工作，也就是防破網、補破網，這部分是不是可以給我一個書面報告？以做為國科會在這方面有努力透過跨部會一起進行補破網，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：書面報告多久可以給我？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該一個月內。"],["范委員雲：一個月內，好，那我們就等你的書面報告。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["范委員雲：我希望國科會能夠擔任起領導的角色，因為衛福部、教育部跟運動發展的業務都非常多，研究倫理的部分我擔心他們會忽略了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：學術倫理是國科會要努力的，在IRB的部分──也就是人體相關的，現在主政的是衛福部，我們會跟他……"],["范委員雲：對，是沒錯，但就是要跨部會努力，你們的公開記者會也說要跨部會努力嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["范委員雲：再來，我要針對生養子女的困境部分，還有一些的時間，這是我今天的第二個主題，不知道主委有沒有讀到中研院很優秀的物理研究所副研究員林耿慧老師在母親節分享自己的經驗，覺得我們國家的科研環境還是缺乏性別敏感度，然後他提到自己過去是被國科會鼓勵的優秀女博士生，到生育前，其實研究表現都非常地好，可是在他2012年生了一胎、2015年生了雙胞胎之後，他在被審查的時候，審查委員顯然確認缺乏性別敏感度，質疑他的生產力下降，後來就沒有得到研究計畫；他用研究的方式，認為國科會應該要去研究生一胎、生二胎是不是有影響女性科研人才的出版，可是在研究審查方面，你們目前制度做得還不夠；然後他還提到，其實科研人才裡面有三分之一是女性，可是成為國科會計畫主持人的比例就降到四分之一。不知道主委有沒有看過或聽過這篇文章？因為有非常多人分享，這樣子一個嚴謹的學術文章非常地長，還這麼多人分享，並不容易，表示他說出了部分人的心聲。主委知道這篇文章嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我沒有讀過，但……"],["范委員雲：沒關係，主委之後可以去看一下，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["范委員雲：因為他這裡面有用研究舉證的方式，覺得國科會應該要去研究研究人員，特別是女性在生一胎、生兩胎、生三胎之後，對他的生產量是不是有影響？如何不要流失這些人才，而是支持他，不是在審查的過程中，因為他一小段時間的表現就拿不到計畫，最後就惡性循環，反而是國家培養女性優秀人才的損失。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["范委員雲：我知道你們有做一個補救，就科技領域的部分，如果生一胎的話，他的績效認定可以從一般的5年增加2年，你們今天的報告中也有提到，生兩胎的話，就是5加2加2。但是這位研究人員提出來說，不知道是不是因為人文領域的女性研究員比較多，它的時間就可以是10年，你這邊還5加2，像這位發文的人，他的第二胎是雙胞胎，所以看起來你們性別友善措施還是滿不夠的。你們目前其實有一個懷孕及育兒隨到隨審，自懷孕到子女滿3歲之前都可以適用；另外，研討會部分你們有補助托育經費，讓需要帶小孩的家長，不分男女都可以友善托育；還有一個鼓勵女性的STEM計畫。但是國科會自己有委託人做生育支持措施成效分析報告，這是2022年的，今年是2025年，主委，您有沒有看過這份分析報告？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，沒有，不過我同意委員的觀點，現在因為少子女的狀況，我們希望能夠挽回這個頹勢，我們的確要多照顧……"],["范委員雲：友善生育。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是、是。"],["范委員雲：我最近才看了居禮夫人的傳記電影，科學界就是充滿了性別歧視，他是因為特別、特別優秀，而且有一個非常支持他的先生跟家庭，才能夠不斷地突出。所以我覺得不要讓我們優秀的女性科研人才覺得被制度歧視，沒有得到鼓勵跟支持，這也會流失國家的優秀人才。既然你們都委託人做生育支持措施成效分析報告，做了3年，主委還沒有機會看到，那就把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：一個是支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有2到3歲，應該放寬到5到6歲；另外，是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間女性執行多年期計畫，他如果本來就很優秀，不會因為生育就不優秀，只是那段時間可能會有一些生養家庭跟職涯的平衡，但是以優秀的居禮夫人為例，我記得他生了兩個小孩還是依然優秀，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["范委員雲：這個可以多久之內給我一個報告呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們一樣在一個月內，謝謝委員的建議。"],["范委員雲：一個月內，把你們自己請人做分析的生育支持措施裡面的政策建議，至少這兩點要好好評估是不是能夠推出，好不好？還有雙胞胎的議題，你也一起研究。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員質詢，主委請回座。","接下來請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}}