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782.168, \"end\": 782.268, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 782.268, \"end\": 782.388, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 782.388, \"end\": 782.408, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,093 --> 00:00:06,803\n好謝謝主席現在請主席講我們請主席講\n\n2\n00:00:14,763 --> 00:00:42,904\n主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項\n\n3\n00:00:44,405 --> 00:01:06,718\n剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長\n\n4\n00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:33,357\n你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎\n\n5\n00:01:34,068 --> 00:02:03,468\n是而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照\n\n6\n00:02:04,348 --> 00:02:04,588\n都差不多\n\n7\n00:02:26,854 --> 00:02:50,442\n所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要填列表格比如說0到6歲的部分\n\n8\n00:02:50,842 --> 00:03:06,707\n就是有簡化就對了對就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請其實署長因為就是說\n\n9\n00:03:12,449 --> 00:03:41,179\n現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目\n\n10\n00:03:42,239 --> 00:03:59,373\n因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性性質還有普及性基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚\n\n11\n00:03:59,913 --> 00:04:17,116\n今天你大概有講出幾個基本的狀況所以我想還是請未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的修法\n\n12\n00:04:17,717 --> 00:04:38,915\n我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正\n\n13\n00:04:39,777 --> 00:05:02,952\n這個是我給你的一個建議以後要改進當然我們還有一個非常重要的一個問題就是說這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的修正導致我們地方政府自籌財源的時候它的比例變成三級跳\n\n14\n00:05:03,956 --> 00:05:20,392\n那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個\n\n15\n00:05:21,753 --> 00:05:35,071\n依照修正後的這個財政收視化分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到啊你現在就把它加進來造成他的財政機制變成三級跳這樣公平合理嗎\n\n16\n00:05:37,185 --> 00:05:55,163\n115他確定會拿到所以等於是說我們知道115會拿到我如果不納入考量他影響數真的是太大他是真的是太大所以這個部分我必須把它納入我的一個整個一個財政的一個級距裡面去做考量這樣對我整個\n\n17\n00:05:55,883 --> 00:06:22,725\n台灣才會比較有效的一個運用那所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均那這對所有有一些其他的一個縣市是很大的不公平現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的嘛\n\n18\n00:06:23,445 --> 00:06:37,880\n因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年絕對會入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自首款要提高\n\n19\n00:06:38,888 --> 00:07:01,193\n自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法\n\n20\n00:07:01,713 --> 00:07:17,511\n但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK\n\n21\n00:07:18,912 --> 00:07:34,464\n所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好我想所以我們\n\n22\n00:07:35,865 --> 00:07:50,404\n做大事要走大路不要說是好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好妳請回我現在請阮次長\n\n23\n00:07:58,088 --> 00:08:17,616\n市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導\n\n24\n00:08:19,257 --> 00:08:29,832\n財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額所以我要請教部長\n\n25\n00:08:31,145 --> 00:08:50,238\n先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助積損財政收支的差額\n\n26\n00:08:52,696 --> 00:09:15,987\n委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會\n\n27\n00:09:16,807 --> 00:09:36,614\n按照哪一種公式啊你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要次長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就去做二次分配啊\n\n28\n00:09:37,834 --> 00:09:57,242\n你就做二次分配嘛二次分配還有餘額就做第三次的分配嘛這樣不是很單純嗎但是問題沒有修法我們就是因為它明文規定就是沒有規定我們就依照這種方式就依照原來法律的規定的一個精神去做再次分配嘛是說它明文規定\n\n29\n00:09:58,422 --> 00:10:23,902\n它的分子比如說我用離島來講離島來講理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去\n\n30\n00:10:24,843 --> 00:10:40,204\n市長你財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配\n\n31\n00:10:40,965 --> 00:11:01,594\n我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足嗎這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在那邊將來就是說如果將來如果公司解決了\n\n32\n00:11:08,177 --> 00:11:34,414\n能夠儘速解決這個問題然後看財政部如何來修法來把它解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關這個營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個\n\n33\n00:11:41,418 --> 00:12:04,219\n這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的這個統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低\n\n34\n00:12:05,199 --> 00:12:25,204\n我覺得是這樣就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜因為蠻細的那我是覺得簡單惡要講簡單惡要講所以我這樣講我還是會後再跟委員解釋好不好是我是建議你也不用回答了就是我希望說\n\n35\n00:12:26,604 --> 00:12:48,120\n就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則\n\n36\n00:12:49,261 --> 00:13:02,408\n所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量這個我們都是我想我們的目標是一樣再做回覆了再給稍微回覆一下好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4093\t6803\t好 謝謝主席 現在請主席講我們請主席講\n14763\t42904\t主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項\n44405\t66718\t剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長\n67799\t93357\t你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎\n94068\t123468\t是 而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照\n124348\t124588\t都差不多\n146854\t170442\t所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要填列表格比如說0到6歲的部分\n170842\t186707\t就是有簡化就對了對 就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便 更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請其實 署長 因為就是說\n192449\t221179\t現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目\n222239\t239373\t因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性 性質還有普及性 基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚\n239913\t257116\t今天你大概有講出幾個基本的狀況所以我想還是請未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的修法\n257717\t278915\t我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正\n279777\t302952\t這個是我給你的一個建議 以後要改進當然我們還有一個非常重要的一個問題就是說這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的修正導致我們地方政府自籌財源的時候它的比例變成三級跳\n303956\t320392\t那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個\n321753\t335071\t依照修正後的這個財政收視化分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到啊你現在就把它加進來造成他的財政機制變成三級跳這樣公平合理嗎\n337185\t355163\t115他確定會拿到所以等於是說我們知道115會拿到我如果不納入考量他影響數真的是太大他是真的是太大所以這個部分我必須把它納入我的一個整個一個財政的一個級距裡面去做考量這樣對我整個\n355883\t382725\t台灣才會比較有效的一個運用那所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均那這對所有有一些其他的一個縣市是很大的不公平現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的嘛\n383445\t397880\t因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年絕對會入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自首款要提高\n398888\t421193\t自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法\n421713\t437511\t但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK\n438912\t454464\t所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好 我想所以我們\n455865\t470404\t做大事要走大路不要說是好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好 妳請回我現在請阮次長\n478088\t497616\t市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導\n499257\t509832\t財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額所以我要請教部長\n511145\t530238\t先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助積損財政收支的差額\n532696\t555987\t委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會\n556807\t576614\t按照哪一種公式啊你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要次長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就去做二次分配啊\n577834\t597242\t你就做二次分配嘛二次分配還有餘額就做第三次的分配嘛這樣不是很單純嗎但是問題沒有修法我們就是因為它明文規定就是沒有規定我們就依照這種方式就依照原來法律的規定的一個精神去做再次分配嘛是說它明文規定\n598422\t623902\t它的分子 比如說我用離島來講離島來講 理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去\n624843\t640204\t市長你財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配\n640965\t661594\t我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足嗎這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在那邊將來就是說如果將來如果公司解決了\n668177\t694414\t能夠儘速解決這個問題然後看財政部如何來修法來把它解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關這個營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個\n701418\t724219\t這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的這個統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低\n725199\t745204\t我覺得是這樣 就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜 因為蠻細的那我是覺得 簡單惡要講簡單惡要講所以我這樣講 我還是會後再跟委員解釋好不好是 我是建議 你也不用回答了就是我希望說\n746604\t768120\t就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則\n769261\t782408\t所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量這個我們都是我想我們的目標是一樣再做回覆了再給 稍微回覆一下好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 現在請主席講我們請主席講\n主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項\n剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長\n你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎\n是 而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照\n都差不多\n所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要填列表格比如說0到6歲的部分\n就是有簡化就對了對 就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便 更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請其實 署長 因為就是說\n現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目\n因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性 性質還有普及性 基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚\n今天你大概有講出幾個基本的狀況所以我想還是請未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的修法\n我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正\n這個是我給你的一個建議 以後要改進當然我們還有一個非常重要的一個問題就是說這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的修正導致我們地方政府自籌財源的時候它的比例變成三級跳\n那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個\n依照修正後的這個財政收視化分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到啊你現在就把它加進來造成他的財政機制變成三級跳這樣公平合理嗎\n115他確定會拿到所以等於是說我們知道115會拿到我如果不納入考量他影響數真的是太大他是真的是太大所以這個部分我必須把它納入我的一個整個一個財政的一個級距裡面去做考量這樣對我整個\n台灣才會比較有效的一個運用那所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均那這對所有有一些其他的一個縣市是很大的不公平現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的嘛\n因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年絕對會入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自首款要提高\n自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法\n但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK\n所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好 我想所以我們\n做大事要走大路不要說是好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好 妳請回我現在請阮次長\n市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導\n財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額所以我要請教部長\n先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助積損財政收支的差額\n委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會\n按照哪一種公式啊你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要次長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就去做二次分配啊\n你就做二次分配嘛二次分配還有餘額就做第三次的分配嘛這樣不是很單純嗎但是問題沒有修法我們就是因為它明文規定就是沒有規定我們就依照這種方式就依照原來法律的規定的一個精神去做再次分配嘛是說它明文規定\n它的分子 比如說我用離島來講離島來講 理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去\n市長你財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配\n我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足嗎這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在那邊將來就是說如果將來如果公司解決了\n能夠儘速解決這個問題然後看財政部如何來修法來把它解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關這個營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個\n這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的這個統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低\n我覺得是這樣 就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜 因為蠻細的那我是覺得 簡單惡要講簡單惡要講所以我這樣講 我還是會後再跟委員解釋好不好是 我是建議 你也不用回答了就是我希望說\n就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則\n所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量這個我們都是我想我們的目標是一樣再做回覆了再給 稍微回覆一下好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.093 --> 00:06.803\n好謝謝主席現在請主席講我們請主席講\n\n00:14.763 --> 00:42.904\n主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項\n\n00:44.405 --> 01:06.718\n剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長\n\n01:07.799 --> 01:33.357\n你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎\n\n01:34.068 --> 02:03.468\n是而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照\n\n02:04.348 --> 02:04.588\n都差不多\n\n02:26.854 --> 02:50.442\n所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要填列表格比如說0到6歲的部分\n\n02:50.842 --> 03:06.707\n就是有簡化就對了對就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請其實署長因為就是說\n\n03:12.449 --> 03:41.179\n現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目\n\n03:42.239 --> 03:59.373\n因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性性質還有普及性基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚\n\n03:59.913 --> 04:17.116\n今天你大概有講出幾個基本的狀況所以我想還是請未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的修法\n\n04:17.717 --> 04:38.915\n我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正\n\n04:39.777 --> 05:02.952\n這個是我給你的一個建議以後要改進當然我們還有一個非常重要的一個問題就是說這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的修正導致我們地方政府自籌財源的時候它的比例變成三級跳\n\n05:03.956 --> 05:20.392\n那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個\n\n05:21.753 --> 05:35.071\n依照修正後的這個財政收視化分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到啊你現在就把它加進來造成他的財政機制變成三級跳這樣公平合理嗎\n\n05:37.185 --> 05:55.163\n115他確定會拿到所以等於是說我們知道115會拿到我如果不納入考量他影響數真的是太大他是真的是太大所以這個部分我必須把它納入我的一個整個一個財政的一個級距裡面去做考量這樣對我整個\n\n05:55.883 --> 06:22.725\n台灣才會比較有效的一個運用那所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均那這對所有有一些其他的一個縣市是很大的不公平現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的嘛\n\n06:23.445 --> 06:37.880\n因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年絕對會入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自首款要提高\n\n06:38.888 --> 07:01.193\n自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法\n\n07:01.713 --> 07:17.511\n但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK\n\n07:18.912 --> 07:34.464\n所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好我想所以我們\n\n07:35.865 --> 07:50.404\n做大事要走大路不要說是好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好妳請回我現在請阮次長\n\n07:58.088 --> 08:17.616\n市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導\n\n08:19.257 --> 08:29.832\n財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額所以我要請教部長\n\n08:31.145 --> 08:50.238\n先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助積損財政收支的差額\n\n08:52.696 --> 09:15.987\n委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會\n\n09:16.807 --> 09:36.614\n按照哪一種公式啊你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要次長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就去做二次分配啊\n\n09:37.834 --> 09:57.242\n你就做二次分配嘛二次分配還有餘額就做第三次的分配嘛這樣不是很單純嗎但是問題沒有修法我們就是因為它明文規定就是沒有規定我們就依照這種方式就依照原來法律的規定的一個精神去做再次分配嘛是說它明文規定\n\n09:58.422 --> 10:23.902\n它的分子比如說我用離島來講離島來講理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去\n\n10:24.843 --> 10:40.204\n市長你財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配\n\n10:40.965 --> 11:01.594\n我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足嗎這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在那邊將來就是說如果將來如果公司解決了\n\n11:08.177 --> 11:34.414\n能夠儘速解決這個問題然後看財政部如何來修法來把它解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關這個營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個\n\n11:41.418 --> 12:04.219\n這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的這個統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低\n\n12:05.199 --> 12:25.204\n我覺得是這樣就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜因為蠻細的那我是覺得簡單惡要講簡單惡要講所以我這樣講我還是會後再跟委員解釋好不好是我是建議你也不用回答了就是我希望說\n\n12:26.604 --> 12:48.120\n就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則\n\n12:49.261 --> 13:02.408\n所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量這個我們都是我想我們的目標是一樣再做回覆了再給稍微回覆一下好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.093,"end":6.803,"text":"好 謝謝主席 現在請主席講我們請主席講"},{"start":14.763,"end":42.904,"text":"主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項"},{"start":44.405,"end":66.718,"text":"剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長"},{"start":67.799,"end":93.357,"text":"你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎"},{"start":94.068,"end":123.468,"text":"是 而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照"},{"start":124.348,"end":124.588,"text":"都差不多"},{"start":146.854,"end":170.442,"text":"所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要填列表格比如說0到6歲的部分"},{"start":170.842,"end":186.707,"text":"就是有簡化就對了對 就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便 更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請其實 署長 因為就是說"},{"start":192.449,"end":221.179,"text":"現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目"},{"start":222.239,"end":239.373,"text":"因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性 性質還有普及性 基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚"},{"start":239.913,"end":257.116,"text":"今天你大概有講出幾個基本的狀況所以我想還是請未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的修法"},{"start":257.717,"end":278.915,"text":"我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正"},{"start":279.777,"end":302.952,"text":"這個是我給你的一個建議 以後要改進當然我們還有一個非常重要的一個問題就是說這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的修正導致我們地方政府自籌財源的時候它的比例變成三級跳"},{"start":303.956,"end":320.392,"text":"那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個"},{"start":321.753,"end":335.071,"text":"依照修正後的這個財政收視化分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到啊你現在就把它加進來造成他的財政機制變成三級跳這樣公平合理嗎"},{"start":337.185,"end":355.163,"text":"115他確定會拿到所以等於是說我們知道115會拿到我如果不納入考量他影響數真的是太大他是真的是太大所以這個部分我必須把它納入我的一個整個一個財政的一個級距裡面去做考量這樣對我整個"},{"start":355.883,"end":382.725,"text":"台灣才會比較有效的一個運用那所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均那這對所有有一些其他的一個縣市是很大的不公平現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的嘛"},{"start":383.445,"end":397.88,"text":"因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年絕對會入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自首款要提高"},{"start":398.888,"end":421.193,"text":"自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法"},{"start":421.713,"end":437.511,"text":"但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK"},{"start":438.912,"end":454.464,"text":"所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好 我想所以我們"},{"start":455.865,"end":470.404,"text":"做大事要走大路不要說是好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好 妳請回我現在請阮次長"},{"start":478.088,"end":497.616,"text":"市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導"},{"start":499.257,"end":509.832,"text":"財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額所以我要請教部長"},{"start":511.145,"end":530.238,"text":"先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助積損財政收支的差額"},{"start":532.696,"end":555.987,"text":"委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會"},{"start":556.807,"end":576.614,"text":"按照哪一種公式啊你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要次長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就去做二次分配啊"},{"start":577.834,"end":597.242,"text":"你就做二次分配嘛二次分配還有餘額就做第三次的分配嘛這樣不是很單純嗎但是問題沒有修法我們就是因為它明文規定就是沒有規定我們就依照這種方式就依照原來法律的規定的一個精神去做再次分配嘛是說它明文規定"},{"start":598.422,"end":623.902,"text":"它的分子 比如說我用離島來講離島來講 理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去"},{"start":624.843,"end":640.204,"text":"市長你財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配"},{"start":640.965,"end":661.594,"text":"我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足嗎這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在那邊將來就是說如果將來如果公司解決了"},{"start":668.177,"end":694.414,"text":"能夠儘速解決這個問題然後看財政部如何來修法來把它解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關這個營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個"},{"start":701.418,"end":724.219,"text":"這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的這個統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低"},{"start":725.199,"end":745.204,"text":"我覺得是這樣 就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜 因為蠻細的那我是覺得 簡單惡要講簡單惡要講所以我這樣講 我還是會後再跟委員解釋好不好是 我是建議 你也不用回答了就是我希望說"},{"start":746.604,"end":768.12,"text":"就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則"},{"start":769.261,"end":782.408,"text":"所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量這個我們都是我想我們的目標是一樣再做回覆了再給 稍微回覆一下好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時59分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長好。主計長，我上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候就有跟院長及您請教，針對中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法的修正條文，將一般性補助款之補助範圍改為具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質、財政均衡等事項，剛才李彥秀委員也指出所謂「具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質」是很抽象的法律概念，具體內容到底是什麼，我看地方政府到現在都霧煞煞，不是很了解啦！所以請問主計長，你是否可以明確地告訴我們，到底一般性補助款的補助項目還有評比基準、補助比率有什麼樣的具體內容？要很具體地告訴各地方縣市政府啊！否則現在改成申請制，他們要如何申請真的會搞不清楚。主計長，你可以簡要地跟我們說明嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，一般性補助款整個項目的評比基準還有補助比率是由各部會訂定，其實大部分也都屬於舊有計畫，新的計畫比較少，因為新計畫中有很多要經過核定的手續，所以大部分是舊計畫。很多縣市政府其實可以沿用舊有項目，只是分配時會按照財力級距分配，所以可能就整體分配比例做調整，但是計畫的項目、評比的基準大概都是沿用以往。除非有一些部分是沒有補助的，要不然其他大概都跟以往一樣。"],["林委員思銘：都差不多啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：都差不多，沒有很大的變動。除了有一部分回歸地方，由其所獲得的統籌分配稅款支應之外，大部分都沿用以前的做法。但是以前針對每一項目都要提計畫，今年也改成只須填列表格，譬如說0至6歲補助部分，大概有將……"],["林委員思銘：就是簡化就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，計畫方面簡化很多，所以就整個程序上來講更方便、更便利，而不是因為須要申請就會比較困難。但是有一些大計畫的確須要申請，譬如說捷運、軌道，這些都是必須申請的。"],["林委員思銘：好，主計長，我大概了解。但是因為現在改成申請制，大家會有一種疑慮，就是申請出去以後是不是確實能拿到這樣的補助，也才有會不會中央說了算的疑慮。我們認為改成這樣的辦法其實對地方政府來說充滿不確定性，所以我才要你很明確地說明到底什麼是未來地方政府要申請的項目啊！你雖然把原則講出來：「具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質」，剛剛又提到就是跟以前一樣，但具體內容到底怎麼樣在整個辦法訂定的過程中其實都沒有講得很清楚。雖然你今天大概講出幾個基本狀況，但還是請主計總處未來在整個辦法修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府講清楚，才不會讓人家感覺是黑箱修法，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們在9月17日召開過縣市政府會議，很明確地告訴他們有哪些項目……"],["林委員思銘：但你們在829就已經把辦法修好了，我是說修法之前啦！在修這個辦法之前，你就應該請各地方縣市政府來，跟他們說清楚、講明白嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，如果搭配新修財劃法之後，我們也會做修正。"],["林委員思銘：不要修了之後才請他們來，這是我給你的建議啦！以後要改進啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分我們會重新考慮，謝謝委員的指教。"],["林委員思銘：還有一個非常重要的問題。這次修正中，各縣市政府原來的財力級次也被修正，導致地方政府自籌財源的比例三級跳。辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的歲入決算審定數，現在變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款。也就是說，縣市過去三年依照修正後財政收支劃分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到，你們卻現在就把它加進來，造成縣市的財政級次三級跳，這樣公平、合理嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：縣市在115年確定會拿到，所以等於……"],["林委員思銘：對，我們知道115年會拿到啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果不納入考量，影響度真的太大。"],["林委員思銘：但是你把級次調高啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：由於影響度真的太大，所以這部分必須納入整個財政級距考量，這樣對均衡臺灣才能比較有效地運用。115年度已經確定，所以我們一定要納入影響數考量。如果不納入影響數考量，而是用以前年度三年的平均，對部分縣市是很大的不公平。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我現在要跟你討論的是，雖然你有你的考量，但是這樣的辦法根本就是不對的嘛！因為錢就是還沒入帳啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年絕對可以入帳。"],["林委員思銘：115年的還沒入帳啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年絕對會入帳，而且有的縣市一年增加四、五百億元，十年就會增加四、五千億元。"],["林委員思銘：但是你壓縮補助款，變成它的自籌款就要提高嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：縣市的自有財源增加，自籌款當然要提高，有一些縣市本身統籌分配稅款沒有增加那麼多，自籌款當然要減少，這樣各縣市才能得到均衡的照顧啊！"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你現在是單方面提出你的看法，但是你看看各縣市政府，包含我們新竹縣，財政級次有那麼好嗎？你直接我們調整為第一級，從第三級變成第一級！"],["陳主計長淑姿：它在22縣市裡面是排行第一。"],["林委員思銘：這樣看起來就是非常不合理啦！","我一直跟你強調，整個辦法不是不贊成你修，但是在修法過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府，並聆聽他們的意見，讓整個辦法更完整一點。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們也希望如此。"],["林委員思銘：做大事要走大路啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員思銘：不要小鼻子小眼睛，不敢讓各地方縣市政府參與，這樣的辦法修出來，當然大家會有非常大的意見。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員思銘：你請回。","請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，關於這次補助辦法的修正，主計總處剛剛提到是為了因應財劃法的修正。昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個統籌分配稅款的分配方式，根據媒體報導，財政部表示將研擬把普通統籌稅款優先全額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以我要請教部長，先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有統籌分配款，就如同我們剛才講的，那345億元餘額沒有辦法分配。那麼現在財政部又是打算以哪種方式優先全額補助基準財政收支的差額？"],["阮次長清華：委員是講345億元的問題嗎？"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["阮次長清華：345億元單純是因為計算公式的問題，所以假定大家有共識、也修公式的話，基本上那是地方的財源，我們還是會按照公式分配給各地方政府。"],["林委員思銘：按照哪一種公式啊？你現在講的公式是哪一種公式？是要透過修法還是……"],["阮次長清華：我們……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我給你一個建議啦！我在院會質詢時也一直講，可以依照現在既有的財政收支劃分法公式做二次分配啊！就做二次分配嘛！要是二次分配還有餘額，就做第三次分配嘛！這樣不是很單純嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是如果沒有修法之前，因為明文規定……"],["林委員思銘：就是因為沒有規定，那就比照這種方式，也就是依照原來法律規定的精神去做再次分配嘛！"],["阮次長清華：不，我不是說沒有規定，而是法律明文規定了分子。以離島來講，理論上，在分配的時候，分母應該是3個離島，分子應該是以3個離島來算嘛！但是目前的條文怎麼規定呢？就是分子仍用3個離島，可是分母用全國22個縣市來算，所以當然分不出去。"],["林委員思銘：次長，雖然財政部自己有一套看法，但我覺得我的建議比較單純啦！就是依照原來的公式、原來財政收支劃分法相關條文所定的權重比例再次分配，345億元可以分配完成啊！如果離島有問題的話，再研擬對離島要用什麼樣的方式予以補足嘛！這樣可不可行？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，如果可以做，我們早就做了啦！這筆錢我們中央也不會拿來用啦！我們會凍結在那邊，將來如果公式解決了……"],["林委員思銘：我還是希望能夠儘速解決這個問題啦！看看財政部如何修法把它解決，這是我的建議。"],["阮次長清華：是，了解。"],["林委員思銘：另外，昨天你們開會，關於這次修法，好像要針對地方自籌財源將營業額的權重從30%變成8%。次長，這樣的修正對於經濟貢獻度高的縣市來說，計算下來的統籌分配稅款比例會變少啊！這樣是不是變相懲罰經濟貢獻度高的縣市，比如新竹縣市？對於營業稅繳那麼多的縣市，卻把權重降低啊？"],["阮次長清華：要講清楚可能有點複雜，因為滿細的。我是覺得8%那部分……"],["主席：那就簡單扼要地講。"],["林委員思銘：我這樣講啦……"],["阮次長清華：還是我會後再跟委員解釋？"],["主席：好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我是建議啦！你也不用回答。本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣，長期以來，經濟貢獻度、所創造的稅收都列在全國前段班，所以財政部應該公平、合理地做分配機制，並協助地方政府提升其財政自主原則。所以我希望財政部在未來研擬的修法版本中，對於權重比例還是要慎重考量啦！"],["阮次長清華：我想我們的目標是一樣的。"],["主席：再另外回復啦！再給召委回復一下。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘召委。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席（林委員思銘）：報告委員會，現在繼續開會。","接下來請顏寬恒委員質詢。"],["顏委員寬恒：主席、各位列席官員、各位委員同事，大家好。主席，有請主計總處陳淑姿主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長早。主計總處在6月2日發函各縣市政府，徵詢修正中央對縣市政府補助辦法的意見。先不說內容是什麼，光是要求3天內回復這一點就非常誇張。立法院要求各部會提供資料或者是要求就這些政策內容到辦公室報告時，部會都沒有辦法在3天內回復。各部會沒辦法做到的事情，主計總處卻要求各縣市政府3天內就要給意見，其實根本就沒有打算徵詢縣市政府的意見啊！只是走形式、過場而已啦！這樣的時間安排完全不考慮地方政府實務面的運作情況、完全不顧地方政府的反應跟需求。主計長的回復是因為修法幅度不大，也沒有要求地方政府準時繳交意見，這讓我更加難以置信。影響層面這麼大，你卻說不用準時繳交意見，主計總處這樣草率行事，提倡東西可以不準時交、沒關係，也讓各縣市政府、尤其是財政困難的政府看到這一次一般性補助款的修正都措手不及。","中央對地方的補助款應該落實財政均衡、協助地方維持公共服務品質，但是我們看到在編列與分配上出現了嚴重的偏差跟不透明。裡面關鍵的權重設定、評估項目、指標計算方式等都由中央單方面決定，例如人口數、財政自給率、社會福利支出等指標，中央都可藉由資料統計來源玩數字遊戲、操縱結果，造成分配的落差。補助款對各縣市政府非常重要，因為涉及社福、教育、基礎建設、民生預算等，分配過程卻粗糙不堪。地方制度法第六十九條第三項規定中央對地方的補助須要明定項目、對象跟比例，過去補助規定也以附表方式呈現，明白列出補助事項，此次修法卻將兩個附表全部刪除，導致地方政府無法掌握中央補助會有哪些項目，也會影響預算籌編作業，預算歲入應該如何編列？編列不足的部分是不是要強迫地方政府舉債？本來應該公開、透明的政府機關卻由中央政府做起黑箱作業，各地方政府對於中央如何分配補助款一概未知。修正補助項目不再明列之後，該如何確保補助款分配的公平性與透明性？請主計長說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員報告，我們在6月2日徵詢地方意見，事實上是在8月14日才召開相關意見徵詢會議，依照以往的經驗，這段期間當中陸陸續續都可以提供意見，我們在8月14日召開相關意見徵詢會議的時候，也會把各地方陸陸續續提供的意見加以討論。另外，我們在8月25日有分配機制的說明，9月13日也邀請各縣市首長來參加補助交流的會議，9月17日又召開一場說明補助項目跟金額的說明會。","第二，如果是說附表取消這部分，還是有確定項目。我們新增一個附表，涵蓋一般性和計畫型。原來的附表一、二刪除，但我們還是新增了一個附表，涵蓋一般性和計畫型補助項目。而且大部分其實都是由原來舊計畫引導，至於有部分需要中央政策引導的項目就延續，由各部會訂定補助相關的考核和審核要點……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，主計長，我知道了，大家心裡都很清楚啦！修正後的條文不明確、補助款的分配就是黑箱作業。就像臺中捷運藍線，明年中央應該補助臺中大概新臺幣42億元，交通部卻只承諾核撥1.68億元，短少高達96%。依照補助款的規定，藍線建設經費由中央負擔4成、40%，臺中市負擔6成，但是依照原本的比例計算，明年中央應該補助臺中42億元，交通部卻只承諾核撥1.6億元，短少60倍，你們這樣的作法等於是嚴重違背中央跟地方的合作承諾，直接衝擊捷運藍線的建設時程。","此次修正將一般性補助款又改為申請制，那代表以後的補助都要按照政黨來進行分配，只要縣市長是同黨的就可以拿到更多的補助款。相反的，像臺中市政府就只能繼續被中央剝奪，如果一般性補助款分配完全依賴申請制，那不就等於賦予執政黨中央更巨大的一個資源控制權，進一步加劇中央對地方的政治操作，地方自治就是淪為口號。","以前臺中市政府努力還債，讓臺中市民的平均負債可以減少，把臺中市的財力層級從三級拉到二級。臺中市本身就是長年被中央大小眼的城市，好不容易把自己的財力級次提升到二級卻沒有用，因為公式不公，補助全靠中央的臉色，那中央也可以利用財力級次二級來作為藉口不給補助款，所以實際上就是臺中市又要再一次的被中央剝一層皮。","主計長，你不覺得這一次補助辦法的修正，只是讓各縣市政府更積極的舉債？那你中央也不管對不對？只有讓地方政府這樣子一個惡性循環是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告一下，所謂的臺中南線的補助這個部分，像有關軌道或者是捷運相關的建設計畫，在中央來講都沒有減列，只是今年編列有困難……"],["顏委員寬恒：依照補助的辦法就是中央占四成，地方占六成。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：高雄因為財力級次第三級，所以他才由中央補助六成，地方負責四成。這個都擺在眼前，大家都看得到的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的，所以他這個部分都沒有改變，今年是因為他沒有辦法補助這麼多額度，所以他是往後延，並不是說他不給。以臺中來講，是考量他整個工程都還沒有發包，然後都市變更都沒有完成，用地沒有取得，所以才給他金額比較少。但是如果他工程發包，他在以後年度……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以42億什麼時候會到位？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以後年度他會按照他的工程進度去撥補，所以這個部分是沒有修正的。"],["顏委員寬恒：這是交通部跟你說明的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前他在115年度預算書上表達的就是這樣，他的補助比例整個都沒有變更。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，各地方的重大建設都不應該被卡，尤其是用這種方式。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以軌道的部分我們都沒有，一般是沒有，這個部分我們原則上都是支持，只是現在中央要編出來是有他的困難，所以他是往後延。他按照他實際的進度，不是按照你所提的需求數。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，主計長，你身為中華民國的主計長，你應該要為全體國人，為中華民國的國民來著想，絕對不是看顏色辦事，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的，我們絕對不是。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我希望你們不要一錯再錯，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分我們也絕對支持，像軌道的部分涉及大眾捷運的部分，我們原則上是希望能夠支持中央和地方，共同來協助把它完成。"],["顏委員寬恒：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}}