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00:01:01,293\n就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系嘛那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做\n\n3\n00:01:03,257 --> 00:01:26,148\n刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说\n\n4\n00:01:27,268 --> 00:01:52,731\n報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬對這樣子好那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方\n\n5\n00:01:54,382 --> 00:01:58,493\n因為現在法院也有不一定\n\n6\n00:01:59,891 --> 00:02:27,048\n有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛\n\n7\n00:02:27,828 --> 00:02:37,163\n那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理\n\n8\n00:02:38,975 --> 00:03:01,936\n當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於\n\n9\n00:03:03,537 --> 00:03:31,227\n所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念是好那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的這個報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化是好就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明\n\n10\n00:03:31,627 --> 00:04:00,289\n是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像他跑了\n\n11\n00:04:00,949 --> 00:04:22,136\n一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣是好那我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的這個權益然後那報酬的部分應該是要更透明那另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會\n\n12\n00:04:23,036 --> 00:04:39,205\n有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼什麼譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加租在這個外送員的\n\n13\n00:04:39,645 --> 00:05:08,144\n这个报酬里面也许你在跑这个单的时候或者这一段时间这几天在跑单的时候就会因为我们这个平台有做这样的一个活动那你的报酬可能也会有一些影响那我想请教就是说像类似这样平台在做活动或优惠的这个期间是不是也可以保障就是说这些外送员他的权益是不会受到他们平台自己本身在做活动然后受到影响\n\n14\n00:05:08,755 --> 00:05:33,516\n其实现在刚刚委员讲的部分在在交货指引上面其实我们的指引在我们的指引上面其实就有规定了那也就是说这个平台的促销不应该是变成是外送人在承担承担这个所谓的优惠或者是什么的不应该是外送人来负担那所以这是为什么我们希望是整体性的考虑他的整整体性的报酬因为\n\n15\n00:05:34,477 --> 00:06:03,476\n外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度思考那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法那未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台那未來會不會也是有這樣子的一個專法我覺得\n\n16\n00:06:04,557 --> 00:06:25,323\n各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態未來也有可能不同樣態立不同不一樣的專法\n\n17\n00:06:26,483 --> 00:06:45,281\n所以我觉得部长可能你们要立这个专法之后可能也要再去想一下也许未来不一样的职业别然后不一样的这个样态也会需要立这样的一个专法有没有可能跟文说明其实文讲的是其实是直直一个核心就是说\n\n18\n00:06:46,622 --> 00:07:13,377\n的确过去在做部会分工的时候也是考虑到那未来可能还有多少样态会怎么去做分工所以其实在相关的部会分工里面的挑战会比传统的一些业务来得多但我们其实也是考虑到确实这些新兴的经济经营的形态的确在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括\n\n19\n00:07:15,166 --> 00:07:19,091\n我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成\n\n20\n00:07:20,475 --> 00:07:46,958\n平台跟外送員之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是\n\n21\n00:07:47,719 --> 00:08:01,697\n部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說新興的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多啦那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工\n\n22\n00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:29,895\n照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法\n\n23\n00:08:30,555 --> 00:08:51,166\n好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多那我們沒有就是我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金那也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬那我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣\n\n24\n00:08:53,775 --> 00:09:11,844\n報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在摘保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考\n\n25\n00:09:13,044 --> 00:09:29,274\n那我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也要還要再去想怎麼樣讓他更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益\n\n26\n00:09:30,672 --> 00:09:59,651\n其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實就是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因\n\n27\n00:10:00,351 --> 00:10:14,297\n所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5547\t34556\t謝謝主席我們請部長要請洪部長部長好部長因為今天的這個議題是很多外送員關心的那我想請教就是說因為現在的這個外送員他可能想要這個隨時想要跑想要兼差就兼差那也不需要打卡嗎\n35396\t61293\t就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系嘛那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做\n63257\t86148\t刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说\n87268\t112731\t報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬對這樣子好那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方\n114382\t118493\t因為現在法院也有不一定\n119891\t147048\t有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛\n147828\t157163\t那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理\n158975\t181936\t當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於\n183537\t211227\t所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念是好那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的這個報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化是好就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明\n211627\t240289\t是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像他跑了\n240949\t262136\t一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣是好那我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的這個權益然後那報酬的部分應該是要更透明那另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會\n263036\t279205\t有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼什麼譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加租在這個外送員的\n279645\t308144\t这个报酬里面也许你在跑这个单的时候或者这一段时间这几天在跑单的时候就会因为我们这个平台有做这样的一个活动那你的报酬可能也会有一些影响那我想请教就是说像类似这样平台在做活动或优惠的这个期间是不是也可以保障就是说这些外送员他的权益是不会受到他们平台自己本身在做活动然后受到影响\n308755\t333516\t其实现在刚刚委员讲的部分在在交货指引上面其实我们的指引在我们的指引上面其实就有规定了那也就是说这个平台的促销不应该是变成是外送人在承担承担这个所谓的优惠或者是什么的不应该是外送人来负担那所以这是为什么我们希望是整体性的考虑他的整整体性的报酬因为\n334477\t363476\t外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度思考那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法那未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台那未來會不會也是有這樣子的一個專法我覺得\n364557\t385323\t各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態未來也有可能不同樣態立不同不一樣的專法\n386483\t405281\t所以我觉得部长可能你们要立这个专法之后可能也要再去想一下也许未来不一样的职业别然后不一样的这个样态也会需要立这样的一个专法有没有可能跟文说明其实文讲的是其实是直直一个核心就是说\n406622\t433377\t的确过去在做部会分工的时候也是考虑到那未来可能还有多少样态会怎么去做分工所以其实在相关的部会分工里面的挑战会比传统的一些业务来得多但我们其实也是考虑到确实这些新兴的经济经营的形态的确在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括\n435166\t439091\t我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成\n440475\t466958\t平台跟外送員之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是\n467719\t481697\t部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說新興的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多啦那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工\n485040\t509895\t照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法\n510555\t531166\t好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多那我們沒有就是我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金那也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬那我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣\n533775\t551844\t報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在摘保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考\n553044\t569274\t那我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也要還要再去想怎麼樣讓他更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益\n570672\t599651\t其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實就是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因\n600351\t614297\t所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請部長要請洪部長部長好部長因為今天的這個議題是很多外送員關心的那我想請教就是說因為現在的這個外送員他可能想要這個隨時想要跑想要兼差就兼差那也不需要打卡嗎\n就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系嘛那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做\n刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说\n報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬對這樣子好那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方\n因為現在法院也有不一定\n有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛\n那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理\n當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於\n所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念是好那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的這個報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化是好就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明\n是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像他跑了\n一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣是好那我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的這個權益然後那報酬的部分應該是要更透明那另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會\n有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼什麼譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加租在這個外送員的\n这个报酬里面也许你在跑这个单的时候或者这一段时间这几天在跑单的时候就会因为我们这个平台有做这样的一个活动那你的报酬可能也会有一些影响那我想请教就是说像类似这样平台在做活动或优惠的这个期间是不是也可以保障就是说这些外送员他的权益是不会受到他们平台自己本身在做活动然后受到影响\n其实现在刚刚委员讲的部分在在交货指引上面其实我们的指引在我们的指引上面其实就有规定了那也就是说这个平台的促销不应该是变成是外送人在承担承担这个所谓的优惠或者是什么的不应该是外送人来负担那所以这是为什么我们希望是整体性的考虑他的整整体性的报酬因为\n外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度思考那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法那未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台那未來會不會也是有這樣子的一個專法我覺得\n各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態未來也有可能不同樣態立不同不一樣的專法\n所以我觉得部长可能你们要立这个专法之后可能也要再去想一下也许未来不一样的职业别然后不一样的这个样态也会需要立这样的一个专法有没有可能跟文说明其实文讲的是其实是直直一个核心就是说\n的确过去在做部会分工的时候也是考虑到那未来可能还有多少样态会怎么去做分工所以其实在相关的部会分工里面的挑战会比传统的一些业务来得多但我们其实也是考虑到确实这些新兴的经济经营的形态的确在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括\n我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成\n平台跟外送員之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是\n部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說新興的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多啦那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工\n照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法\n好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多那我們沒有就是我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金那也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬那我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣\n報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在摘保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考\n那我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也要還要再去想怎麼樣讓他更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益\n其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實就是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因\n所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.547 --> 00:34.556\n謝謝主席我們請部長要請洪部長部長好部長因為今天的這個議題是很多外送員關心的那我想請教就是說因為現在的這個外送員他可能想要這個隨時想要跑想要兼差就兼差那也不需要打卡嗎\n\n00:35.396 --> 01:01.293\n就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系嘛那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做\n\n01:03.257 --> 01:26.148\n刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说\n\n01:27.268 --> 01:52.731\n報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬對這樣子好那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方\n\n01:54.382 --> 01:58.493\n因為現在法院也有不一定\n\n01:59.891 --> 02:27.048\n有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛\n\n02:27.828 --> 02:37.163\n那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理\n\n02:38.975 --> 03:01.936\n當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於\n\n03:03.537 --> 03:31.227\n所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念是好那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的這個報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化是好就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明\n\n03:31.627 --> 04:00.289\n是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像他跑了\n\n04:00.949 --> 04:22.136\n一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣是好那我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的這個權益然後那報酬的部分應該是要更透明那另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會\n\n04:23.036 --> 04:39.205\n有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼什麼譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加租在這個外送員的\n\n04:39.645 --> 05:08.144\n这个报酬里面也许你在跑这个单的时候或者这一段时间这几天在跑单的时候就会因为我们这个平台有做这样的一个活动那你的报酬可能也会有一些影响那我想请教就是说像类似这样平台在做活动或优惠的这个期间是不是也可以保障就是说这些外送员他的权益是不会受到他们平台自己本身在做活动然后受到影响\n\n05:08.755 --> 05:33.516\n其实现在刚刚委员讲的部分在在交货指引上面其实我们的指引在我们的指引上面其实就有规定了那也就是说这个平台的促销不应该是变成是外送人在承担承担这个所谓的优惠或者是什么的不应该是外送人来负担那所以这是为什么我们希望是整体性的考虑他的整整体性的报酬因为\n\n05:34.477 --> 06:03.476\n外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度思考那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法那未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台那未來會不會也是有這樣子的一個專法我覺得\n\n06:04.557 --> 06:25.323\n各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態未來也有可能不同樣態立不同不一樣的專法\n\n06:26.483 --> 06:45.281\n所以我觉得部长可能你们要立这个专法之后可能也要再去想一下也许未来不一样的职业别然后不一样的这个样态也会需要立这样的一个专法有没有可能跟文说明其实文讲的是其实是直直一个核心就是说\n\n06:46.622 --> 07:13.377\n的确过去在做部会分工的时候也是考虑到那未来可能还有多少样态会怎么去做分工所以其实在相关的部会分工里面的挑战会比传统的一些业务来得多但我们其实也是考虑到确实这些新兴的经济经营的形态的确在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括\n\n07:15.166 --> 07:19.091\n我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成\n\n07:20.475 --> 07:46.958\n平台跟外送員之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是\n\n07:47.719 --> 08:01.697\n部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說新興的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多啦那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工\n\n08:05.040 --> 08:29.895\n照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法\n\n08:30.555 --> 08:51.166\n好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多那我們沒有就是我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金那也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬那我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣\n\n08:53.775 --> 09:11.844\n報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在摘保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考\n\n09:13.044 --> 09:29.274\n那我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也要還要再去想怎麼樣讓他更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益\n\n09:30.672 --> 09:59.651\n其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實就是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因\n\n10:00.351 --> 10:14.297\n所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.547,"end":34.556,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長要請洪部長部長好部長因為今天的這個議題是很多外送員關心的那我想請教就是說因為現在的這個外送員他可能想要這個隨時想要跑想要兼差就兼差那也不需要打卡嗎"},{"start":35.396,"end":61.293,"text":"就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系嘛那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做"},{"start":63.257,"end":86.148,"text":"刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说"},{"start":87.268,"end":112.731,"text":"報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬對這樣子好那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方"},{"start":114.382,"end":118.493,"text":"因為現在法院也有不一定"},{"start":119.891,"end":147.048,"text":"有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛"},{"start":147.828,"end":157.163,"text":"那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理"},{"start":158.975,"end":181.936,"text":"當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於"},{"start":183.537,"end":211.227,"text":"所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念是好那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的這個報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化是好就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明"},{"start":211.627,"end":240.289,"text":"是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像他跑了"},{"start":240.949,"end":262.136,"text":"一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣是好那我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的這個權益然後那報酬的部分應該是要更透明那另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會"},{"start":263.036,"end":279.205,"text":"有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼什麼譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加租在這個外送員的"},{"start":279.645,"end":308.144,"text":"这个报酬里面也许你在跑这个单的时候或者这一段时间这几天在跑单的时候就会因为我们这个平台有做这样的一个活动那你的报酬可能也会有一些影响那我想请教就是说像类似这样平台在做活动或优惠的这个期间是不是也可以保障就是说这些外送员他的权益是不会受到他们平台自己本身在做活动然后受到影响"},{"start":308.755,"end":333.516,"text":"其实现在刚刚委员讲的部分在在交货指引上面其实我们的指引在我们的指引上面其实就有规定了那也就是说这个平台的促销不应该是变成是外送人在承担承担这个所谓的优惠或者是什么的不应该是外送人来负担那所以这是为什么我们希望是整体性的考虑他的整整体性的报酬因为"},{"start":334.477,"end":363.476,"text":"外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度思考那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法那未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台那未來會不會也是有這樣子的一個專法我覺得"},{"start":364.557,"end":385.323,"text":"各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態未來也有可能不同樣態立不同不一樣的專法"},{"start":386.483,"end":405.281,"text":"所以我觉得部长可能你们要立这个专法之后可能也要再去想一下也许未来不一样的职业别然后不一样的这个样态也会需要立这样的一个专法有没有可能跟文说明其实文讲的是其实是直直一个核心就是说"},{"start":406.622,"end":433.377,"text":"的确过去在做部会分工的时候也是考虑到那未来可能还有多少样态会怎么去做分工所以其实在相关的部会分工里面的挑战会比传统的一些业务来得多但我们其实也是考虑到确实这些新兴的经济经营的形态的确在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括"},{"start":435.166,"end":439.091,"text":"我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成"},{"start":440.475,"end":466.958,"text":"平台跟外送員之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是"},{"start":467.719,"end":481.697,"text":"部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說新興的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多啦那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工"},{"start":485.04,"end":509.895,"text":"照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法"},{"start":510.555,"end":531.166,"text":"好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多那我們沒有就是我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金那也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬那我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣"},{"start":533.775,"end":551.844,"text":"報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在摘保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考"},{"start":553.044,"end":569.274,"text":"那我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也要還要再去想怎麼樣讓他更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益"},{"start":570.672,"end":599.651,"text":"其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實就是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因"},{"start":600.351,"end":614.297,"text":"所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時51分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員早。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天這個議題是很多外送員所關心的，所以我想請教部長，現在的外送員可能是隨時想跑就跑、想要兼差就兼差，也不需要打卡，未來會不會因為立這個專法之後而有所受限？因為我們看到之前的法院判例是有僱傭關係，未來立了這個專法之後，會不會變成想要兼職、兼差的人可能會有一些受限？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不要這樣的事情發生。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以你們會怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：就像剛剛委員提到的，在勞動關係的認定上，要認定是僱傭還是承攬？的確，是僱傭還是承攬現在各方還有不太一樣的意見，所以基本上我們會比較認為把外送員目前所需要的權益保障，比方保險的保障、報酬的保障、契約的保障，明確的放到法裡面去保障，用這個方式就好，而不一定要在法裡面直接定性它是僱傭或者承攬關係。"],["黃委員秀芳：但法院之前有幾個判例是僱傭關係，未來這個專法立了之後，會不會有一些矛盾的地方？"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在法院也有不同的判決，當然，法院怎麼判，我們必須尊重法院在個案上的判定，可是實際上，我們認為還是必須綜合考慮，思考外送員的整個保障制度、權益應該怎麼做。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，再請教部長，如果是僱傭關係，以勞基法來講，可能就有最低薪資，如果是這樣的話，你覺得外送員的最基本薪資報酬是多少？你認為怎樣才是合理的？"],["洪部長申翰：作為法規的主管機關，我們當然希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障，而這個最低保障至少要高於最低工資，比方最低工資的時薪，不是整體薪資，而是每一單平均下來要超過最低工資的時薪，這樣比較能夠符合大家對所謂薪資或者報酬保障的概念。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我們也希望薪資報酬的部分應該更透明化。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：讓所有外送員在跑單的時候，可以知道自己接了多少單，報酬大約多少，我覺得未來立這個專法之後，這部分應該可以要求，就是薪資報酬應該更透明。"],["洪部長申翰：是，其實我們也希望報酬的計算能夠讓外送員自己掌握，比方他跑了多長的距離，大概可以換算成多少報酬，對於他的勞務提供跟報酬取得之間是能夠預期、能夠安排、能夠在他的更多掌控之下，而不會變得好像他跑了一段，可是到底會拿到多少報酬，兩者之間的差異太大，讓他很難預期，我們也不希望是這樣。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們當然希望立這個專法之後，可以保障外送員的權益，報酬的部分也會更透明。另外，一些平台可能會有免運什麼的優惠，譬如一些紀念日還是什麼的，就會免運費或者有折扣，有時候這個部分可能就會加諸在外送員的報酬裡面，也許他在跑單的時候，因為這一段時間平台有做這樣的活動，他的報酬可能就會受到一些影響，請問部長，平台在做類似的活動或優惠期間，是不是可以保障外送員的權益不受平台本身活動的影響？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛委員講的部分，在我們的指引就有相關規定，也就是平台的促銷優惠或什麼的不應該變成由外送員來承擔，不應該由外送員負擔，這也是為什麼我們希望是整體性的考慮他的整個報酬，因為外送平台可能會有很多這個費、那個費，這個名目、那個名目，其實不容易對他們每一部分都……但整體性的報酬要有一個基本保障，這也是為什麼我們從這個角度來思考這個法案。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在外送員有這樣一個專法，未來類似Uber那樣的平台，會不會也有他們的專法？我覺得各個樣態都有可能，現在網路上叫Uber也非常方便，未來也有可能針對不同的樣態而立不一樣的專法，我覺得你們在立這個專法之後，可能要再思考一下，也許未來不一樣的職業別、不一樣的樣態，也會需要立這樣的專法，有沒有可能？"],["洪部長申翰：委員講的其實直指一個核心，的確過去在做部會分工的時候，也有考慮到未來可能還有多少樣態、會怎麼分工，所以在相關部會裡的分工挑戰，會比傳統的一些業務來得多，我們其實也有考慮到這些新興的經濟經營型態，的確在法制方面需要多一些保障，也包括我們過去希望透過行政協調等等方式，能夠促成平台跟外送員之間的很多重要討論，但我們也的確在這些指引裡面看到，恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護，所以我坦白說，我們部裡的同仁很辛苦，但我們其實願意跨出這一步，部裡面的同仁也願意承擔很多這種新興工作上面的任務，這部分部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，就像我剛剛講的，這種新興的職業樣態其實會越來越多，我們今天立了這個專法，未來可能還有其他方面、類似這樣的職業也需要立專法，因為部長你是照顧勞工的主管機關，未來的職業樣態真的是各式各樣，這部分可能要再去考慮。","另外，我看到新加坡針對類似平台有通過一個平台工人法，要求平台跟平台工作者要共同負擔中央公積金，還有平台需要負起工傷保險的責任，但我看我們今天立的這個專法，好像讓平台在這個部分的責任減輕了許多，沒有看到有什麼共同負擔的公積金，也沒有平台要負擔工傷費用的一些相關責任歸屬，所以我想請教勞動部，針對這個部分，你們的立場到底是怎麼樣？"],["王司長厚偉：報告委員，有關於保險的部分，我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在災保部分看看能不能給外送員更多的保障。至於勞退提撥的部分，因為可能茲事體大，我們還是需要多一點時間來聆聽各界的意見，會來做參考。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我還是要再次提到，保障勞工的權益是勞動部要做的，如果覺得這個專法可能有一些不足的部分，應該也還要再去想怎麼樣讓它更完善，保障這些外送員的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：其實委員點到一個很重要的部分，因為臺灣的勞動法制是在僱傭、承攬之間這個傳統體系下運作，的確這個法的訂定會突破很多過去的框架，對於行政部門來說是很具挑戰的，這也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久，會需要好一段時間來評估的原因。當然我們對於未來新興的樣態，包括委員現在提供的這些經驗，我們都願意來做參考。可是的確在整體的法制框架裡，有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員發言","請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}