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所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 535.732, \"end\": 535.912, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 535.912, \"end\": 536.092, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 536.092, \"end\": 536.193, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 536.193, \"end\": 536.773, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 536.773, \"end\": 536.873, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 536.873, \"end\": 537.013, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 537.013, \"end\": 537.113, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 537.113, \"end\": 537.313, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 537.313, \"end\": 538.094, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"騎\"}, {\"word\": \"乘\", \"start\": 538.094, \"end\": 538.274, 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\"start\": 632.377, \"end\": 632.518, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 632.518, \"end\": 632.678, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 632.678, \"end\": 633.079, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 633.079, \"end\": 633.76, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 633.76, \"end\": 633.84, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 633.84, \"end\": 633.86, \"score\": 0.414}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,528 --> 00:00:06,760\n主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長\n\n2\n00:00:14,021 --> 00:00:34,251\n兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢問我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面宣佈要調整的那個\n\n3\n00:00:35,271 --> 00:00:49,834\n祭酬的那個規範漠視外送員的勞動權益當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的\n\n4\n00:00:50,735 --> 00:01:01,565\n能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想問先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來\n\n5\n00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:21,028\n是我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好消費者也好大家都有討論那也都是大家就是什麼時候送我想我們會在這個\n\n6\n00:01:26,354 --> 00:01:46,767\n為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益\n\n7\n00:01:48,428 --> 00:01:59,280\n因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果那運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論\n\n8\n00:02:02,214 --> 00:02:20,940\n因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益\n\n9\n00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:44,451\n那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念\n\n10\n00:02:45,451 --> 00:03:10,163\n服務的基本流程派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受如果遇到爭議的時候那申訴跟救濟制度的話勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被\n\n11\n00:03:11,929 --> 00:03:34,235\n最被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確啦或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次\n\n12\n00:03:37,637 --> 00:03:51,572\n這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤\n\n13\n00:03:52,213 --> 00:04:21,506\n如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以最後只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看\n\n14\n00:04:23,106 --> 00:04:43,333\n跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候衛生平台他提供要給衛生員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊可是如果要到山上去啊那最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰\n\n15\n00:04:43,973 --> 00:04:59,154\n那另外還有時間跟地點那我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不能應該由外送員來做這樣那個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有定\n\n16\n00:04:59,534 --> 00:05:19,742\n好那我認為啦就顧客的權益平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把他納入去做考量部長氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到\n\n17\n00:05:20,543 --> 00:05:36,304\n顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去\n\n18\n00:05:36,764 --> 00:06:05,206\n真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎\n\n19\n00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:23,156\n跟跟文說明基本上的確這也是很多外生員外送人反映的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該建立有效的申訴機制這有效申請甚至我們都認為平台是應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的指引裡面其實有定定好\n\n20\n00:06:23,636 --> 00:06:46,190\n就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來\n\n21\n00:06:46,810 --> 00:07:06,572\n的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中\n\n22\n00:07:06,952 --> 00:07:30,646\n所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的一個調查\n\n23\n00:07:31,927 --> 00:07:46,375\n職業安全衛生設施對照來看的話包括車輛安全的檢核教育訓練預防措施等都存在相當高的比例沒有去做所以這邊我們大家就也收到外送員的一些抱怨就來問兩\n\n24\n00:07:48,277 --> 00:08:02,612\n就是部長跟次長請看這張圖這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概是7.8%是因為\n\n25\n00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:31,047\n分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎\n\n26\n00:08:35,539 --> 00:08:51,569\n確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長\n\n27\n00:08:55,732 --> 00:09:21,814\n對這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入\n\n28\n00:09:22,515 --> 00:09:43,703\n老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益\n\n29\n00:09:44,463 --> 00:10:00,897\n最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨\n\n30\n00:10:01,718 --> 00:10:28,774\n那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中\n\n31\n00:10:31,155 --> 00:10:33,860\n可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2528\t6760\t主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長\n14021\t34251\t兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢問我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面宣佈要調整的那個\n35271\t49834\t祭酬的那個規範 漠視外送員的勞動權益 當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的\n50735\t61565\t能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想問先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來\n67190\t81028\t是我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好消費者也好大家都有討論那也都是大家就是什麼時候送我想我們會在這個\n86354\t106767\t為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益\n108428\t119280\t因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果那運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論\n122214\t140940\t因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益\n141280\t164451\t那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念\n165451\t190163\t服務的基本流程 派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受 如果遇到爭議的時候那申訴跟救濟制度的話 勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被\n191929\t214235\t最被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確啦或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次\n217637\t231572\t這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤\n232213\t261506\t如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以最後只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看\n263106\t283333\t跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候衛生平台他提供要給衛生員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊可是如果要到山上去啊那最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰\n283973\t299154\t那另外還有時間跟地點那我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不能應該由外送員來做這樣那個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有定\n299534\t319742\t好那我認為啦就顧客的權益平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把他納入去做考量部長氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到\n320543\t336304\t顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去\n336764\t365206\t真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎\n366516\t383156\t跟跟文說明基本上的確這也是很多外生員外送人反映的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該建立有效的申訴機制這有效申請甚至我們都認為平台是應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的指引裡面其實有定定好\n383636\t406190\t就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來\n406810\t426572\t的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中\n426952\t450646\t所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的一個調查\n451927\t466375\t職業安全衛生設施對照來看的話包括車輛安全的檢核教育訓練預防措施等都存在相當高的比例沒有去做所以這邊我們大家就也收到外送員的一些抱怨就來問兩\n468277\t482612\t就是部長跟次長請看這張圖這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概是7.8%是因為\n485956\t511047\t分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎\n515539\t531569\t確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長\n535732\t561814\t對 這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對 所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入\n562515\t583703\t老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益\n584463\t600897\t最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨\n601718\t628774\t那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好 職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中\n631155\t633860\t可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝\n","txt":"主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長\n兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢問我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面宣佈要調整的那個\n祭酬的那個規範 漠視外送員的勞動權益 當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的\n能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想問先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來\n是我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好消費者也好大家都有討論那也都是大家就是什麼時候送我想我們會在這個\n為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益\n因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果那運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論\n因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益\n那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念\n服務的基本流程 派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受 如果遇到爭議的時候那申訴跟救濟制度的話 勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被\n最被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確啦或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次\n這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤\n如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以最後只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看\n跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候衛生平台他提供要給衛生員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊可是如果要到山上去啊那最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰\n那另外還有時間跟地點那我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不能應該由外送員來做這樣那個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有定\n好那我認為啦就顧客的權益平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把他納入去做考量部長氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到\n顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去\n真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎\n跟跟文說明基本上的確這也是很多外生員外送人反映的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該建立有效的申訴機制這有效申請甚至我們都認為平台是應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的指引裡面其實有定定好\n就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來\n的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中\n所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的一個調查\n職業安全衛生設施對照來看的話包括車輛安全的檢核教育訓練預防措施等都存在相當高的比例沒有去做所以這邊我們大家就也收到外送員的一些抱怨就來問兩\n就是部長跟次長請看這張圖這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概是7.8%是因為\n分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎\n確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長\n對 這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對 所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入\n老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益\n最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨\n那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好 職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中\n可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.528 --> 00:06.760\n主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長\n\n00:14.021 --> 00:34.251\n兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢問我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面宣佈要調整的那個\n\n00:35.271 --> 00:49.834\n祭酬的那個規範漠視外送員的勞動權益當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的\n\n00:50.735 --> 01:01.565\n能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想問先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來\n\n01:07.190 --> 01:21.028\n是我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好消費者也好大家都有討論那也都是大家就是什麼時候送我想我們會在這個\n\n01:26.354 --> 01:46.767\n為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益\n\n01:48.428 --> 01:59.280\n因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果那運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論\n\n02:02.214 --> 02:20.940\n因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益\n\n02:21.280 --> 02:44.451\n那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念\n\n02:45.451 --> 03:10.163\n服務的基本流程派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受如果遇到爭議的時候那申訴跟救濟制度的話勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被\n\n03:11.929 --> 03:34.235\n最被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確啦或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次\n\n03:37.637 --> 03:51.572\n這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤\n\n03:52.213 --> 04:21.506\n如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以最後只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看\n\n04:23.106 --> 04:43.333\n跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候衛生平台他提供要給衛生員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊可是如果要到山上去啊那最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰\n\n04:43.973 --> 04:59.154\n那另外還有時間跟地點那我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不能應該由外送員來做這樣那個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有定\n\n04:59.534 --> 05:19.742\n好那我認為啦就顧客的權益平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把他納入去做考量部長氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到\n\n05:20.543 --> 05:36.304\n顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去\n\n05:36.764 --> 06:05.206\n真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎\n\n06:06.516 --> 06:23.156\n跟跟文說明基本上的確這也是很多外生員外送人反映的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該建立有效的申訴機制這有效申請甚至我們都認為平台是應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的指引裡面其實有定定好\n\n06:23.636 --> 06:46.190\n就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來\n\n06:46.810 --> 07:06.572\n的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中\n\n07:06.952 --> 07:30.646\n所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的一個調查\n\n07:31.927 --> 07:46.375\n職業安全衛生設施對照來看的話包括車輛安全的檢核教育訓練預防措施等都存在相當高的比例沒有去做所以這邊我們大家就也收到外送員的一些抱怨就來問兩\n\n07:48.277 --> 08:02.612\n就是部長跟次長請看這張圖這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概是7.8%是因為\n\n08:05.956 --> 08:31.047\n分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎\n\n08:35.539 --> 08:51.569\n確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長\n\n08:55.732 --> 09:21.814\n對這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入\n\n09:22.515 --> 09:43.703\n老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益\n\n09:44.463 --> 10:00.897\n最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨\n\n10:01.718 --> 10:28.774\n那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中\n\n10:31.155 --> 10:33.860\n可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.528,"end":6.76,"text":"主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長"},{"start":14.021,"end":34.251,"text":"兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢問我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面宣佈要調整的那個"},{"start":35.271,"end":49.834,"text":"祭酬的那個規範 漠視外送員的勞動權益 當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的"},{"start":50.735,"end":61.565,"text":"能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想問先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":67.19,"end":81.028,"text":"是我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好消費者也好大家都有討論那也都是大家就是什麼時候送我想我們會在這個"},{"start":86.354,"end":106.767,"text":"為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益"},{"start":108.428,"end":119.28,"text":"因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果那運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論"},{"start":122.214,"end":140.94,"text":"因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益"},{"start":141.28,"end":164.451,"text":"那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念"},{"start":165.451,"end":190.163,"text":"服務的基本流程 派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受 如果遇到爭議的時候那申訴跟救濟制度的話 勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被"},{"start":191.929,"end":214.235,"text":"最被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確啦或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次"},{"start":217.637,"end":231.572,"text":"這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤"},{"start":232.213,"end":261.506,"text":"如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以最後只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看"},{"start":263.106,"end":283.333,"text":"跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候衛生平台他提供要給衛生員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊可是如果要到山上去啊那最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰"},{"start":283.973,"end":299.154,"text":"那另外還有時間跟地點那我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不能應該由外送員來做這樣那個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有定"},{"start":299.534,"end":319.742,"text":"好那我認為啦就顧客的權益平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把他納入去做考量部長氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到"},{"start":320.543,"end":336.304,"text":"顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去"},{"start":336.764,"end":365.206,"text":"真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎"},{"start":366.516,"end":383.156,"text":"跟跟文說明基本上的確這也是很多外生員外送人反映的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該建立有效的申訴機制這有效申請甚至我們都認為平台是應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的指引裡面其實有定定好"},{"start":383.636,"end":406.19,"text":"就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來"},{"start":406.81,"end":426.572,"text":"的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中"},{"start":426.952,"end":450.646,"text":"所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的一個調查"},{"start":451.927,"end":466.375,"text":"職業安全衛生設施對照來看的話包括車輛安全的檢核教育訓練預防措施等都存在相當高的比例沒有去做所以這邊我們大家就也收到外送員的一些抱怨就來問兩"},{"start":468.277,"end":482.612,"text":"就是部長跟次長請看這張圖這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概是7.8%是因為"},{"start":485.956,"end":511.047,"text":"分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎"},{"start":515.539,"end":531.569,"text":"確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長"},{"start":535.732,"end":561.814,"text":"對 這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對 所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入"},{"start":562.515,"end":583.703,"text":"老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益"},{"start":584.463,"end":600.897,"text":"最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨"},{"start":601.718,"end":628.774,"text":"那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好 職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中"},{"start":631.155,"end":633.86,"text":"可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時1分）主席，麻煩勞動部洪部長跟交通部陳次長。"],["主席：請洪部長跟次長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：兩位好。今天排審外送專法的詢答，我有幾個問題要來提醒跟討論。","針對外送平台的爭議，我上個會期就曾經跟外送工會、總工會以及各縣市工會一起召開記者會，譴責平台業者片面宣布調整計酬的規範，漠視外送員的勞動權益。當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價規則和勞動契約等相關的法制作業，就是希望主管機關能夠有效的管理外送平台業者跟保障外送員的權益。","先問次長，你現在的汽車運輸業管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運運價準則到什麼進度，什麼時候可以送進來？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則，我們大概跟很多相關的關係人，不管是工會也好，消費者也好，大家都有討論，也都獲得一致的共識……"],["林委員月琴：是，大概什麼時候送進來？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們會在11月，11月應該可以公布。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝次長。","為什麼我們會這麼關心運價規則，因為這涉及到外送員的報酬結構，如果不夠透明，沒有明確的計算公式，就會讓外送員無從估算真正應得的報酬，並且很容易就發生爭議。因此運費明定後，至少可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益。我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色，因為我覺得洪部長很用心，我想問部長，勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範，如果運費訂好之後，有沒有進一步的討論？"],["洪部長申翰：現在交通部應該可以透過公路法相關的子法來訂後續的運價，因為交通部的運價比較多是處理跟消費者之間，避免消費者權益受損，怕運價訂得太高，這是上限的部分。勞動部這邊可以處理的就會是下限的部分，避免平台給外送員的報酬過低。透過這幾個層面的把關，可以把外送員的報酬把關在一定的範圍裡面，這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論、設計這個制度的概念。"],["林委員月琴：部長，在服務的基本流程、派單的機制跟資訊的揭露，如果遇到爭議的時候，申訴跟救濟制度，勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向？"],["洪部長申翰：現在我們確實是希望包括像停權、終止契約等等，其實現在整個平台運作最被詬病的當然就是外送員申訴管道不明確，或者是不夠有效，所以這部分在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定。"],["林委員月琴：是，好，謝謝部長。我想你上來之後真的很注重勞動權益，在外送員這一塊，我相信你也跟工會有一些接觸，也了解到他們的困難。","部長，我問會這樣問，像這幾天風雨不小，雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的標準，可是像文化大學這樣的山區，現場狀況事實上就已經非常危險，可是沒有宣布停班，外送員就還是得出勤。如果被派單到山上的話，像這樣的核心問題，就是外送員接單時根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層，只能看到大概的範圍，那就會像開盲盒一樣，結果接單後才發現是風雨很大的山區，我怎麼去？最後被迫棄單。我想問部長，平台在派單前，到底有沒有義務提供更完整的地址跟樓層資訊，讓外送員能夠做出選擇，還是這會被認定是顧客的隱私？部長，你怎麼看？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，我們在送給交通部的指引裡面，其實就有考慮這個情形，外送平台要提供外送員單的時候要考慮什麼，他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況，裡面沒有……"],["林委員月琴：可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊，但如果要到山上去，他最後棄單，到時候不是可能會被平台懲罰？"],["王司長厚偉：另外還有時間跟地點。我們這裡有提到不可歸責，外送員接單沒辦法送到，譬如他真的拿了，他送不到是因為天候的狀況，這個責任不應該由外送員來賠償。這點在我們的指引裡也有訂。"],["林委員月琴：好，我認為就顧客的權益、平台的責任和外送員的選擇自由，可能這三方都應該要兼顧，未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把它納入考量。","部長，棄單當然可能延伸到客訴的問題，所以我要問一個比較實際的案例。當外送員遭到顧客投訴時，如果內容根本不合理，例如明明已經送達，而且交貨給本人，卻被登記為非本人取貨，外送員要跟平台說明的時候，他面對的事實上是系統留言，就是一台機器、勾選表單來回覆，他不能碰到真人解釋原因，所以很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會怎麼被處理，甚至直接被列為負評，也不知道原因所在。更糟的是，有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴。部長，對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的申訴，其實是外送員跟我們反映的，政府認為合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，基本上的確這是很多外送員反映的狀況，這也是為什麼我們認為應該要建立有效的申訴機制，甚至平台應該要有專人來處理這部分。所以在我們的指引裡面其實有訂定，就是平台應該提供專人來處理外送員不管是跟合作的商家，或者是跟消費之間可能會有的爭議，或者怎麼樣去做這些認定。的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去，只是一個制式的回應。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長可不可以強化？因為平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道，甚至未來的申訴機制，可能真的要請你們這邊多費力。因為我想你也非常用心，一直非常關心外送員這一塊。","再來，外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題，特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險事故。過去公路局的統計資料也顯示，外送員常見的交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升。這當然不能片面責怪外送員的問題，因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好。而現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡，我認為平台有責任，來肩負起強化勞動安全的相關措施。勞陣過去也有這樣的調查，以職業安全衛生設施規則對照來看的話，包括車輛安全的檢核、教育訓練、預防措施等，都存在相當高的比例是沒有做的。","我們這邊也有收到外送員的一些抱怨，想來問一下部長跟次長。請看這張圖，這是外送員還在接單的實際畫面，根據統計，以臺南市來看，2024年外送員發生事故大概有736件，其中644件是受傷的，有17.8%是因為分心駕駛。我想請問兩位，外送員告訴我們，他們接單時間只有3到5秒，而且是在一邊騎車、一邊看手機、一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作，有時候還要縮放地圖找地點。部長，你應該也是機車族，過去也是騎機車，如果你在騎車的時候同時做這些事情，你覺得安心嗎？安全嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：確實我是機車族。當然，騎車是不應該分心的。"],["林委員月琴：是。一樣的，次長，你覺得從交通安全的角度來看，是合理的嗎？3到5秒就要接單耶，次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：當然所有的行為還是要安全，騎乘機車的時候還是要講求安全。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以我覺得這個威脅著他們，尤其大家也知道外送員所處的狀態就是很險惡。","最後，從業人員的增加，我前面提到，這些問題都會顯著增加，所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障，特別是社會保險機制的投入。從勞陣過去的調查可以發現，不管是全職或者是兼職工作的外送員，投保的狀況都不是特別高，而且等同直接承受各種風險，我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方；而且外送員兼職比例高達75%，要怎麼去保障他們的權益？","最後幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成。第一是保障外送員跟合作商家的權益，強化安全措施跟教育訓練，尤其是交通安全教育，我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊有特別的琢磨。也要煩請召委，審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會，來廣納各方的意見？因為我剛剛提的問題，你看在山區，派單如果講不清楚的話，反而對外送員不利。","我要講的就是，有時候快不是好，產工業也好，職工業也好，對於民進黨提出來的版本，他們認為是最完整、最好的。所以這一塊，我希望我們在會議討論當中，可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員發言。","請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}