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{\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 292.366, \"end\": 292.507, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 292.507, \"end\": 292.707, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 292.707, \"end\": 292.847, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 292.847, \"end\": 293.087, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 293.087, \"end\": 293.488, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 293.488, \"end\": 293.688, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 293.688, \"end\": 294.349, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 294.349, \"end\": 294.529, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 294.529, \"end\": 295.13, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 295.13, \"end\": 295.33, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 295.33, \"end\": 295.45, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 295.45, \"end\": 295.89, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 720.357, \"end\": 720.377, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,378 --> 00:00:32,920\n謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛聯席委員最後期待喔召委這邊如果針對於這個專訪那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個我就麻煩召委再作為考量謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:35,844 --> 00:00:35,864\n慶紅部長\n\n3\n00:00:41,834 --> 00:01:06,728\n部長好網友好是我想大家對這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過了相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障\n\n4\n00:01:07,708 --> 00:01:30,297\n那我們也知道越來越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引\n\n5\n00:01:30,917 --> 00:01:57,952\n在這個指引裡面呢其實第八點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益喔那這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰\n\n6\n00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:28,926\n報告委員確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八\n\n7\n00:02:30,267 --> 00:02:51,099\n那這樣就對保障來講就是一個很大的一個進步那其實民進黨團也有一個草案那這個草案裡面在第11條也把這個外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面那我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的這個執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎\n\n8\n00:02:52,379 --> 00:03:16,589\n當然好太好了我們就持續的來為這個這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會含括到哪一些需要通報的重點\n\n9\n00:03:17,609 --> 00:03:32,644\n那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考\n\n10\n00:03:34,335 --> 00:03:57,622\n跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面\n\n11\n00:03:58,422 --> 00:04:22,455\n其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话\n\n12\n00:04:23,837 --> 00:04:35,348\n就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的\n\n13\n00:04:36,328 --> 00:04:56,211\n好所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完整那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是\n\n14\n00:04:57,452 --> 00:05:25,464\n那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循\n\n15\n00:05:26,224 --> 00:05:55,002\n那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體而來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法\n\n16\n00:05:57,285 --> 00:06:10,891\n現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱為害那這高溫熱為害其實就在一般的作業比方營造業作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到\n\n17\n00:06:12,933 --> 00:06:32,075\n這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是\n\n18\n00:06:32,595 --> 00:06:47,900\n是對所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在\n\n19\n00:06:49,921 --> 00:07:12,447\n那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望\n\n20\n00:07:12,907 --> 00:07:40,054\n未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計\n\n21\n00:07:41,912 --> 00:07:58,083\n跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子\n\n22\n00:07:59,847 --> 00:08:26,203\n那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合職安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的職安法的51支1條其實很關鍵\n\n23\n00:08:28,504 --> 00:08:35,956\n他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展\n\n24\n00:08:36,758 --> 00:09:04,151\n是所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法\n\n25\n00:09:06,032 --> 00:09:31,732\n讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下來定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子\n\n26\n00:09:32,372 --> 00:09:59,375\n好那最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道這個民航局跟這個其他的這個航空公司針對於連我們曾經在近期討論過的這個航檢他帶來的這個生命的因為不利請假造成的影響所\n\n27\n00:10:00,796 --> 00:10:14,006\n做了一些調整達成了四項協議我們覺得很感謝勞動部部長這方面的努力可是我們不希望說一個行業一位同仁因為有這樣的問題\n\n28\n00:10:15,367 --> 00:10:37,717\n就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等\n\n29\n00:10:38,393 --> 00:10:51,279\n那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為\n\n30\n00:10:52,679 --> 00:11:19,450\n跟委員說明上禮拜五勞動部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是國航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的\n\n31\n00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:47,181\n不利對待或者請病假會被勤奪考核認為是墮我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是墮所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子\n\n32\n00:11:48,221 --> 00:12:00,377\n好如果有研議的報告可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做考考好謝謝部長好謝謝召委謝謝王振旭委員發言請林淑芬委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5378\t32920\t謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛聯席委員最後期待喔召委這邊如果針對於這個專訪那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個我就麻煩召委再作為考量謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長\n35844\t35864\t慶紅部長\n41834\t66728\t部長好 網友好是 我想大家對這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭 對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過了相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障\n67708\t90297\t那我們也知道越來越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引\n90917\t117952\t在這個指引裡面呢其實第八點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益喔那這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰\n120276\t148926\t報告委員確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八\n150267\t171099\t那這樣就對保障來講就是一個很大的一個進步那其實民進黨團也有一個草案那這個草案裡面在第11條也把這個外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面那我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的這個執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎\n172379\t196589\t當然好太好了我們就持續的來為這個這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會含括到哪一些需要通報的重點\n197609\t212644\t那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考\n214335\t237622\t跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面\n238422\t262455\t其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话\n263837\t275348\t就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的\n276328\t296211\t好 所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完整那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是\n297452\t325464\t那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循\n326224\t355002\t那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體而來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法\n357285\t370891\t現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱為害那這高溫熱為害其實就在一般的作業比方營造業作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到\n372933\t392075\t這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是\n392595\t407900\t是 對 所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害 熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在\n409921\t432447\t那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望\n432907\t460054\t未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計\n461912\t478083\t跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子\n479847\t506203\t那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合職安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的職安法的51支1條其實很關鍵\n508504\t515956\t他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展\n516758\t544151\t是 所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用 對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法\n546032\t571732\t讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下來定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子\n572372\t599375\t好那最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道這個民航局跟這個其他的這個航空公司針對於連我們曾經在近期討論過的這個航檢他帶來的這個生命的因為不利請假造成的影響所\n600796\t614006\t做了一些調整達成了四項協議我們覺得很感謝勞動部部長這方面的努力可是我們不希望說一個行業一位同仁因為有這樣的問題\n615367\t637717\t就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量 同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等\n638393\t651279\t那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為\n652679\t679450\t跟委員說明上禮拜五勞動部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是國航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的\n680270\t707181\t不利對待或者請病假會被勤奪考核認為是墮我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是墮所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子\n708221\t720377\t好如果有研議的報告可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做考考好謝謝部長好謝謝召委謝謝王振旭委員發言請林淑芬委員發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛聯席委員最後期待喔召委這邊如果針對於這個專訪那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個我就麻煩召委再作為考量謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長\n慶紅部長\n部長好 網友好是 我想大家對這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭 對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過了相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障\n那我們也知道越來越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引\n在這個指引裡面呢其實第八點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益喔那這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰\n報告委員確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八\n那這樣就對保障來講就是一個很大的一個進步那其實民進黨團也有一個草案那這個草案裡面在第11條也把這個外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面那我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的這個執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎\n當然好太好了我們就持續的來為這個這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會含括到哪一些需要通報的重點\n那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考\n跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面\n其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话\n就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的\n好 所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完整那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是\n那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循\n那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體而來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法\n現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱為害那這高溫熱為害其實就在一般的作業比方營造業作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到\n這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是\n是 對 所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害 熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在\n那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望\n未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計\n跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子\n那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合職安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的職安法的51支1條其實很關鍵\n他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展\n是 所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用 對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法\n讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下來定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子\n好那最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道這個民航局跟這個其他的這個航空公司針對於連我們曾經在近期討論過的這個航檢他帶來的這個生命的因為不利請假造成的影響所\n做了一些調整達成了四項協議我們覺得很感謝勞動部部長這方面的努力可是我們不希望說一個行業一位同仁因為有這樣的問題\n就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量 同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等\n那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為\n跟委員說明上禮拜五勞動部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是國航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的\n不利對待或者請病假會被勤奪考核認為是墮我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是墮所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子\n好如果有研議的報告可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做考考好謝謝部長好謝謝召委謝謝王振旭委員發言請林淑芬委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.378 --> 00:32.920\n謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛聯席委員最後期待喔召委這邊如果針對於這個專訪那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個我就麻煩召委再作為考量謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長\n\n00:35.844 --> 00:35.864\n慶紅部長\n\n00:41.834 --> 01:06.728\n部長好網友好是我想大家對這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過了相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障\n\n01:07.708 --> 01:30.297\n那我們也知道越來越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引\n\n01:30.917 --> 01:57.952\n在這個指引裡面呢其實第八點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益喔那這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰\n\n02:00.276 --> 02:28.926\n報告委員確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八\n\n02:30.267 --> 02:51.099\n那這樣就對保障來講就是一個很大的一個進步那其實民進黨團也有一個草案那這個草案裡面在第11條也把這個外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面那我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的這個執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎\n\n02:52.379 --> 03:16.589\n當然好太好了我們就持續的來為這個這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會含括到哪一些需要通報的重點\n\n03:17.609 --> 03:32.644\n那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考\n\n03:34.335 --> 03:57.622\n跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面\n\n03:58.422 --> 04:22.455\n其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话\n\n04:23.837 --> 04:35.348\n就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的\n\n04:36.328 --> 04:56.211\n好所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完整那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是\n\n04:57.452 --> 05:25.464\n那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循\n\n05:26.224 --> 05:55.002\n那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體而來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法\n\n05:57.285 --> 06:10.891\n現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱為害那這高溫熱為害其實就在一般的作業比方營造業作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到\n\n06:12.933 --> 06:32.075\n這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是\n\n06:32.595 --> 06:47.900\n是對所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在\n\n06:49.921 --> 07:12.447\n那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望\n\n07:12.907 --> 07:40.054\n未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計\n\n07:41.912 --> 07:58.083\n跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子\n\n07:59.847 --> 08:26.203\n那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合職安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的職安法的51支1條其實很關鍵\n\n08:28.504 --> 08:35.956\n他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展\n\n08:36.758 --> 09:04.151\n是所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法\n\n09:06.032 --> 09:31.732\n讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下來定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子\n\n09:32.372 --> 09:59.375\n好那最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道這個民航局跟這個其他的這個航空公司針對於連我們曾經在近期討論過的這個航檢他帶來的這個生命的因為不利請假造成的影響所\n\n10:00.796 --> 10:14.006\n做了一些調整達成了四項協議我們覺得很感謝勞動部部長這方面的努力可是我們不希望說一個行業一位同仁因為有這樣的問題\n\n10:15.367 --> 10:37.717\n就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等\n\n10:38.393 --> 10:51.279\n那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為\n\n10:52.679 --> 11:19.450\n跟委員說明上禮拜五勞動部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是國航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的\n\n11:20.270 --> 11:47.181\n不利對待或者請病假會被勤奪考核認為是墮我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是墮所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子\n\n11:48.221 --> 12:00.377\n好如果有研議的報告可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做考考好謝謝部長好謝謝召委謝謝王振旭委員發言請林淑芬委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.378,"end":32.92,"text":"謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛聯席委員最後期待喔召委這邊如果針對於這個專訪那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個我就麻煩召委再作為考量謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長"},{"start":35.844,"end":35.864,"text":"慶紅部長"},{"start":41.834,"end":66.728,"text":"部長好 網友好是 我想大家對這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭 對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過了相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障"},{"start":67.708,"end":90.297,"text":"那我們也知道越來越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引"},{"start":90.917,"end":117.952,"text":"在這個指引裡面呢其實第八點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益喔那這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰"},{"start":120.276,"end":148.926,"text":"報告委員確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八"},{"start":150.267,"end":171.099,"text":"那這樣就對保障來講就是一個很大的一個進步那其實民進黨團也有一個草案那這個草案裡面在第11條也把這個外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面那我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的這個執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎"},{"start":172.379,"end":196.589,"text":"當然好太好了我們就持續的來為這個這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會含括到哪一些需要通報的重點"},{"start":197.609,"end":212.644,"text":"那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考"},{"start":214.335,"end":237.622,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面"},{"start":238.422,"end":262.455,"text":"其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话"},{"start":263.837,"end":275.348,"text":"就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的"},{"start":276.328,"end":296.211,"text":"好 所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完整那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是"},{"start":297.452,"end":325.464,"text":"那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循"},{"start":326.224,"end":355.002,"text":"那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體而來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法"},{"start":357.285,"end":370.891,"text":"現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱為害那這高溫熱為害其實就在一般的作業比方營造業作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到"},{"start":372.933,"end":392.075,"text":"這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是"},{"start":392.595,"end":407.9,"text":"是 對 所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害 熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在"},{"start":409.921,"end":432.447,"text":"那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望"},{"start":432.907,"end":460.054,"text":"未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計"},{"start":461.912,"end":478.083,"text":"跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子"},{"start":479.847,"end":506.203,"text":"那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合職安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的職安法的51支1條其實很關鍵"},{"start":508.504,"end":515.956,"text":"他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展"},{"start":516.758,"end":544.151,"text":"是 所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用 對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法"},{"start":546.032,"end":571.732,"text":"讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下來定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子"},{"start":572.372,"end":599.375,"text":"好那最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道這個民航局跟這個其他的這個航空公司針對於連我們曾經在近期討論過的這個航檢他帶來的這個生命的因為不利請假造成的影響所"},{"start":600.796,"end":614.006,"text":"做了一些調整達成了四項協議我們覺得很感謝勞動部部長這方面的努力可是我們不希望說一個行業一位同仁因為有這樣的問題"},{"start":615.367,"end":637.717,"text":"就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量 同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等"},{"start":638.393,"end":651.279,"text":"那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為"},{"start":652.679,"end":679.45,"text":"跟委員說明上禮拜五勞動部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是國航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的"},{"start":680.27,"end":707.181,"text":"不利對待或者請病假會被勤奪考核認為是墮我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是墮所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子"},{"start":708.221,"end":720.377,"text":"好如果有研議的報告可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做考考好謝謝部長好謝謝召委謝謝王振旭委員發言請林淑芬委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我也呼應林月琴委員剛剛最後的期待，召委這邊如果認為這個專法那麼重要，還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清，需要有更多的意見匯整進來的話，也許委員會召開公聽會也是一個適當的做法。就麻煩召委再酌予考量。","謝謝主席能夠召開今天的會議，我請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。","我想大家對外送員的安全，都非常希望能夠真的提供最好的保障，因為我們也了解一個外送員如果出現任何問題，對家庭、對社會都是非常大的影響，所以希望能夠再請教部長。雖然很多委員跟您討論過相關的議題，不過如何提供最低的保障，我們也知道有越來越多的極端天候狀況，包括高溫、突降大雨或者是強風，如何有更好的保護措施、如何入法，相信這是今天的重點。","我也知道貴部已經有「外送作業安全衛生指引」，在這個指引裡，其實第八點就有明確的寫清楚，要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關商業保險，來保障職業災害等權益，這是明確寫在指引裡面。如果平台不遵照指引，會有罰則嗎？有沒有曾經有類似的案件接受過處罰？"],["林署長毓堂：報告委員，確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有具體的僱傭關係，目前這個指引雖然適用在僱傭關係安全衛生的相關規定，但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者，在這兩、三年不斷跟他們溝通，現在大概兩大家平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了，不管是商業型或是第三責任險，目前涵蓋率大概98%。"],["王委員正旭：那這樣子對保障來講，就是一個很大的進步。其實民進黨團也有一個草案，這個草案第十一條也把外送員投保商業保險入法，我們期待這個部分將來能夠有好的執行模式。勞動部會支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員正旭：好，太好了。我們就持續來為這群外送人員提供更完整的一些做法。","另外就是重大職災通報。指引裡也有提到，事故處理需要有完整的重大職災通報，在第十一點有含括哪一些需要通報的重點。同樣的，這到底是建議性的呢，還是強制性？有沒有在這個過程裡沒有通報而接受到相關的懲處？或是有沒有比較完整的資料，可以讓大家參考？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者就這樣做，可是在法遵的強制性跟嚇阻力上面，就現有的職安法，我們覺得是有加強的空間，所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法，就是現在大院正在審查的職安法，其中的第五十一條之一規定平台業者有責任協助外送員作業安全的預防，從準用直接改成適用。準用改成適用後，如果未來平台業者沒有做到的話，就有實際可以開罰的法條。在這次職安法修法中，第五十一條之一很重要的，我們把它改進、調整進去了。"],["王委員正旭：好。其實民進黨團的版本裡面，也有把這個部分列在第十九條，讓未來的保障可以更完整。最重要的是，任何一個事件必須好好的被調查，這樣才能夠防止下一次可能的案件再度發生。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員正旭：在保障方面，我們也知道極端跟高溫氣候下，外送員每天的工作就是在戶外奔波，幫他的對象服務。我們也了解現在有「天然災害停止上班及上課作業辦法」，政府能夠明確的讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課時有一個完整的依循。如果出現這種狀態，我想勞工也會有相同的保障。可是就好像剛剛月琴委員所提到的，如果氣象報告已經告訴我們會有豪雨、會有颱風，可是又還沒有到達停班停課的條件之下，對於這些外送員安全退避權的保障，如何能夠更具體來落實？不知道部長目前有哪些想法？"],["洪部長申翰：現在因為極端氣候，尤其大家現在越來越重視高溫熱危害，高溫熱危害其實在一般作業，比方營造業的作業，現在都有明定，是有強制性的，雇主必須要給一定的防護設備。現在在外送員這部分，也是剛剛說到的，透過職安法第五十一條之一，面對極端氣候，雇主也就是平台業者，就有責任要給予外送員一定的個人防護措施，包括對熱的、對冷的都是。"],["王委員正旭：對。我們也知道以熱危害為例，第三級是40.6度，看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生，可是某一些區域很有可能會在那段時間真的達到40.6度以上的體感溫度，也許當地可以測到的溫度不見得達到40.6度，可是體感溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度。這個時候應該要避免讓勞工在高溫下從事戶外作業，所以很希望未來針對這群外送員在這種極端氣候之下能更好的落實，來保障他們的安全。比較麻煩的是，怎麼有效的檢核？因為在這個過程裡，如果要舉證或者事先的預防，我們能夠做哪些有效的檢核？在目前相關的一些成果上或是在未來檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛委員有一張熱指數的簡報資料，這個比較不是氣溫，因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟溼度，所以並不是說40.6就是攝氏40.6度，這其實是溫度跟溼度綜合的一個指標。我們這一次在高氣溫作業熱危害預防指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修納進去，但是這的確是要配合職安法的修正，如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話，才會有包括被開罰的強制性。所以我們這次職安法第五十一條之一其實很關鍵，對於這些比較非典型工作者的相關作業安全保護有很大的進展。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以如果職安法修法以後，對這一群外送員的確可以從原來的準用變成適用嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["王委員正旭：如果又有專法成立的話，這兩者之間如何能夠做有效的規範？不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下，如果有職安法，又有我們現在希望能夠制定的專法，有沒有辦法讓這個過程可以更為平順？"],["洪部長申翰：其實外送員的安全是我們最最優先在考慮的，所以包括剛才提到對外送員要有職安法上面的保護。第二個，假如接下來要制定專法，我們也認為商業保險或者是災保其實也都能夠對於安全部分有多一點的協助。"],["王委員正旭：好。最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請教的就是勞工請病假的不利待遇部分，針對我們近期討論過的空姐因擔心請病假被不利對待導致延誤就醫的事件，勞動部有邀集民航局跟其他幾家國籍航空公司進行討論，並達成了四項協議，我們很感謝勞動部部長在這方面的努力，可是我們不希望一個行業一位同仁發生了問題後就去討論那個行業而已，我們期待的是更為周全的，不管是哪一個行業，一般勞工請病假的相關權益保障都應該要同時來考量，同時來納入，包括像是醫院裡面的護理師或相關醫療從業人員，還有其他像臺灣護國神山的工程師、電子業者等等，對於這一部分，部長有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤惰考核範圍的比較完整性的作法？我們很期待有更積極的作為。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，上禮拜五勞動部跟民航局就找6家國籍航空來做討論，當然，因為與會的成員是航空業，現在是比較針對航空業，但的確對於病假，因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權，所以我們都不希望請病假會被制度性的不利對待，或者請病假會在勤惰考核中被認為是惰。我想人都會生病，生病以後請病假休息不應該被認為是惰，所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者針對這個議題做更周全的研議，因為這個事情大概涉及到的樣態也比較多，所以我們會跟專家學者在這方面再多做一些研議。"],["王委員正旭：如果有研議的報告，可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室讓我們參考？謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長、謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員發言。","請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}