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879.624, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,452 --> 00:00:05,778\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長林委員好\n\n2\n00:00:13,212 --> 00:00:36,081\n部长今天讨论平台经济商业模式下大概如何保障外送员的权益在这种状况我们看到说从2012年FullPanda进入台湾开始然后2015年的UberEats加入以后大概从业人员至今大概有十几万了吧是多少\n\n3\n00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:56,130\n17萬人4家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關\n\n4\n00:00:59,197 --> 00:01:27,997\n當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項特別是年輕勞工喔去做兼職的選項我們的勞動力已經大幅下降而年輕的勞動力都去這個從事這個外送平台的服務的工作現在有17萬人而且都是年輕的勞動力也不只年輕勞動力居多那你覺得這個跟我們這個產業缺工會不會有相關\n\n5\n00:01:30,518 --> 00:01:35,242\n就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對\n\n6\n00:01:37,458 --> 00:02:03,954\n所以你不敢回答有没有相关我认为你们也是要去正视这个问题即便有相关那也不是外送员的错但我现在讲一些说其实Foodpanda的营运总监他曾经自己说产业缺工跟外送员的增减没有直接关系而是大家要去对于弹性工时的工作的接受度提高\n\n7\n00:02:04,594 --> 00:02:24,944\n所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個\n\n8\n00:02:26,605 --> 00:02:48,483\n這個專職的這個工作裡面不是勞動藍領階級包括白領階級我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不要都不想來考試了\n\n9\n00:02:50,024 --> 00:03:15,266\n在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估有沒有\n\n10\n00:03:16,987 --> 00:03:33,540\n跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧\n\n11\n00:03:34,821 --> 00:03:52,402\n他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰\n\n12\n00:03:53,976 --> 00:04:10,483\n這樣講太空了這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇\n\n13\n00:04:11,983 --> 00:04:23,389\n在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化你不能只講這一句話對不對\n\n14\n00:04:28,048 --> 00:04:43,723\n我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候他裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題\n\n15\n00:04:45,014 --> 00:05:12,455\n那我们怎么样来协助这些产业把法尊该做的法尊跟保障要做到我听你这样讲不行为什么因为牛步化这些等你讨论完了其实这个问题都已经非常严重了所以你们牛步化而现在这是现在进行式而且如火如荼的进行式大家都想要弹性工作而上个礼拜四我们的院长端出了一个全国劳动力总检讨政策\n\n16\n00:05:13,495 --> 00:05:31,007\n他討論是未來的這個移工的引進的速度數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去這個宣示的這樣一個政策然後他們他說啊你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業\n\n17\n00:05:34,890 --> 00:05:39,614\n他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只\n\n18\n00:05:57,671 --> 00:06:20,576\n只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策吧\n\n19\n00:06:21,978 --> 00:06:38,292\n可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重\n\n20\n00:06:40,359 --> 00:07:07,672\n更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了\n\n21\n00:07:09,335 --> 00:07:25,815\n在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下\n\n22\n00:07:26,769 --> 00:07:45,528\n跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考\n\n23\n00:07:46,479 --> 00:08:10,786\n不是啦你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓他是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工\n\n24\n00:08:11,986 --> 00:08:39,103\n大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說這個很多還各種產業各種缺工狀況嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動\n\n25\n00:08:40,524 --> 00:09:01,775\n你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對\n\n26\n00:09:03,066 --> 00:09:21,637\n我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情就是我在講過的我說那個記者他把調查報告交給美國的這個非營利勞權團體叫Transparent然後他這裡有一篇就是揭穿台灣紡織業強迫勞動這裡面你也有受訪這個Transparent這個透明組織他們去訪談了90多名的越南菲律賓印尼亞泰國移工\n\n27\n00:09:32,163 --> 00:09:48,587\n這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費\n\n28\n00:09:53,408 --> 00:10:15,821\n服務費防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面\n\n29\n00:10:18,542 --> 00:10:42,842\n調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌\n\n30\n00:10:43,743 --> 00:11:06,070\n大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個correctiveactionplan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫那Pentagonia他就講\n\n31\n00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:31,026\n還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行\n\n32\n00:11:33,928 --> 00:11:56,493\n雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去你如果政府不想管政府不想管市場就起來管\n\n33\n00:11:57,893 --> 00:12:18,651\n所以在這種狀況裡面政府說買工費不允許可是人家就是存在那你現在政府不訂法律不修改法律不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼\n\n34\n00:12:19,994 --> 00:12:34,920\n看到了政府代呼職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面\n\n35\n00:12:37,402 --> 00:13:01,218\n這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩\n\n36\n00:13:02,319 --> 00:13:30,330\n在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管\n\n37\n00:13:31,277 --> 00:13:53,967\n但是現在就是最終你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了\n\n38\n00:13:54,787 --> 00:14:02,511\n政府要扛起扛起責任否則台灣從那個人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題好了即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌\n\n39\n00:14:17,117 --> 00:14:39,624\nMadeinTaiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王玉民你只看我所以好吧我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2452\t5778\t好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長林委員好\n13212\t36081\t部长今天讨论平台经济商业模式下大概如何保障外送员的权益在这种状况我们看到说从2012年Full Panda进入台湾开始然后2015年的Uber Eats加入以后大概从业人员至今大概有十几万了吧是多少\n40400\t56130\t17萬人4家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關\n59197\t87997\t當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項特別是年輕勞工喔去做兼職的選項我們的勞動力已經大幅下降而年輕的勞動力都去這個從事這個外送平台的服務的工作現在有17萬人而且都是年輕的勞動力也不只年輕勞動力居多那你覺得這個跟我們這個產業缺工會不會有相關\n90518\t95242\t就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對\n97458\t123954\t所以你不敢回答有没有相关我认为你们也是要去正视这个问题即便有相关那也不是外送员的错但我现在讲一些说其实Foodpanda的营运总监他曾经自己说产业缺工跟外送员的增减没有直接关系而是大家要去对于弹性工时的工作的接受度提高\n124594\t144944\t所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個\n146605\t168483\t這個專職的這個工作裡面不是勞動藍領階級包括白領階級我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不要都不想來考試了\n170024\t195266\t在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估 有沒有\n196987\t213540\t跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧\n214821\t232402\t他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰\n233976\t250483\t這樣講太空了 這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇\n251983\t263389\t在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化你不能只講這一句話對不對\n268048\t283723\t我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候他裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題\n285014\t312455\t那我们怎么样来协助这些产业把法尊该做的法尊跟保障要做到我听你这样讲不行为什么因为牛步化这些等你讨论完了其实这个问题都已经非常严重了所以你们牛步化而现在这是现在进行式而且如火如荼的进行式大家都想要弹性工作而上个礼拜四我们的院长端出了一个全国劳动力总检讨政策\n313495\t331007\t他討論是未來的這個移工的引進的速度數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去這個宣示的這樣一個政策然後他們他說啊你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業\n334890\t339614\t他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只\n357671\t380576\t只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策吧\n381978\t398292\t可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重\n400359\t427672\t更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了\n429335\t445815\t在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下\n446769\t465528\t跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考\n466479\t490786\t不是啦 你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓他是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工\n491986\t519103\t大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說這個很多還各種產業各種缺工狀況嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動\n520524\t541775\t你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對\n543066\t561637\t我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情就是我在講過的我說那個記者他把調查報告交給美國的這個非營利勞權團體叫Transparent然後他這裡有一篇就是揭穿台灣紡織業強迫勞動這裡面你也有受訪這個Transparent這個透明組織他們去訪談了90多名的越南菲律賓印尼亞泰國移工\n572163\t588587\t這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費\n593408\t615821\t服務費防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面\n618542\t642842\t調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌\n643743\t666070\t大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個corrective action plan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫那Pentagonia他就講\n667410\t691026\t還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行\n693928\t716493\t雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去 你如果政府不想管政府不想管 市場就起來管\n717893\t738651\t所以在這種狀況裡面 政府說買工費不允許 可是人家就是存在那你現在政府不訂法律 不修改法律 不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼\n739994\t754920\t看到了政府代呼職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面\n757402\t781218\t這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩\n782319\t810330\t在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管\n811277\t833967\t但是現在就是最終你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了\n834787\t842511\t政府要扛起扛起責任否則台灣從那個人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題好了即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌\n857117\t879624\tMade in Taiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王玉民你只看我所以好吧 我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長林委員好\n部长今天讨论平台经济商业模式下大概如何保障外送员的权益在这种状况我们看到说从2012年Full Panda进入台湾开始然后2015年的Uber Eats加入以后大概从业人员至今大概有十几万了吧是多少\n17萬人4家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關\n當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項特別是年輕勞工喔去做兼職的選項我們的勞動力已經大幅下降而年輕的勞動力都去這個從事這個外送平台的服務的工作現在有17萬人而且都是年輕的勞動力也不只年輕勞動力居多那你覺得這個跟我們這個產業缺工會不會有相關\n就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對\n所以你不敢回答有没有相关我认为你们也是要去正视这个问题即便有相关那也不是外送员的错但我现在讲一些说其实Foodpanda的营运总监他曾经自己说产业缺工跟外送员的增减没有直接关系而是大家要去对于弹性工时的工作的接受度提高\n所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個\n這個專職的這個工作裡面不是勞動藍領階級包括白領階級我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不要都不想來考試了\n在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估 有沒有\n跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧\n他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰\n這樣講太空了 這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇\n在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化你不能只講這一句話對不對\n我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候他裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題\n那我们怎么样来协助这些产业把法尊该做的法尊跟保障要做到我听你这样讲不行为什么因为牛步化这些等你讨论完了其实这个问题都已经非常严重了所以你们牛步化而现在这是现在进行式而且如火如荼的进行式大家都想要弹性工作而上个礼拜四我们的院长端出了一个全国劳动力总检讨政策\n他討論是未來的這個移工的引進的速度數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去這個宣示的這樣一個政策然後他們他說啊你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業\n他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只\n只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策吧\n可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重\n更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了\n在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下\n跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考\n不是啦 你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓他是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工\n大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說這個很多還各種產業各種缺工狀況嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動\n你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對\n我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情就是我在講過的我說那個記者他把調查報告交給美國的這個非營利勞權團體叫Transparent然後他這裡有一篇就是揭穿台灣紡織業強迫勞動這裡面你也有受訪這個Transparent這個透明組織他們去訪談了90多名的越南菲律賓印尼亞泰國移工\n這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費\n服務費防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面\n調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌\n大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個corrective action plan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫那Pentagonia他就講\n還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行\n雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去 你如果政府不想管政府不想管 市場就起來管\n所以在這種狀況裡面 政府說買工費不允許 可是人家就是存在那你現在政府不訂法律 不修改法律 不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼\n看到了政府代呼職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面\n這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩\n在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管\n但是現在就是最終你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了\n政府要扛起扛起責任否則台灣從那個人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題好了即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌\nMade in Taiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王玉民你只看我所以好吧 我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.452 --> 00:05.778\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長林委員好\n\n00:13.212 --> 00:36.081\n部长今天讨论平台经济商业模式下大概如何保障外送员的权益在这种状况我们看到说从2012年FullPanda进入台湾开始然后2015年的UberEats加入以后大概从业人员至今大概有十几万了吧是多少\n\n00:40.400 --> 00:56.130\n17萬人4家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關\n\n00:59.197 --> 01:27.997\n當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項特別是年輕勞工喔去做兼職的選項我們的勞動力已經大幅下降而年輕的勞動力都去這個從事這個外送平台的服務的工作現在有17萬人而且都是年輕的勞動力也不只年輕勞動力居多那你覺得這個跟我們這個產業缺工會不會有相關\n\n01:30.518 --> 01:35.242\n就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對\n\n01:37.458 --> 02:03.954\n所以你不敢回答有没有相关我认为你们也是要去正视这个问题即便有相关那也不是外送员的错但我现在讲一些说其实Foodpanda的营运总监他曾经自己说产业缺工跟外送员的增减没有直接关系而是大家要去对于弹性工时的工作的接受度提高\n\n02:04.594 --> 02:24.944\n所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個\n\n02:26.605 --> 02:48.483\n這個專職的這個工作裡面不是勞動藍領階級包括白領階級我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不要都不想來考試了\n\n02:50.024 --> 03:15.266\n在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估有沒有\n\n03:16.987 --> 03:33.540\n跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧\n\n03:34.821 --> 03:52.402\n他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰\n\n03:53.976 --> 04:10.483\n這樣講太空了這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇\n\n04:11.983 --> 04:23.389\n在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化你不能只講這一句話對不對\n\n04:28.048 --> 04:43.723\n我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候他裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題\n\n04:45.014 --> 05:12.455\n那我们怎么样来协助这些产业把法尊该做的法尊跟保障要做到我听你这样讲不行为什么因为牛步化这些等你讨论完了其实这个问题都已经非常严重了所以你们牛步化而现在这是现在进行式而且如火如荼的进行式大家都想要弹性工作而上个礼拜四我们的院长端出了一个全国劳动力总检讨政策\n\n05:13.495 --> 05:31.007\n他討論是未來的這個移工的引進的速度數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去這個宣示的這樣一個政策然後他們他說啊你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業\n\n05:34.890 --> 05:39.614\n他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只\n\n05:57.671 --> 06:20.576\n只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策吧\n\n06:21.978 --> 06:38.292\n可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重\n\n06:40.359 --> 07:07.672\n更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了\n\n07:09.335 --> 07:25.815\n在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下\n\n07:26.769 --> 07:45.528\n跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考\n\n07:46.479 --> 08:10.786\n不是啦你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓他是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工\n\n08:11.986 --> 08:39.103\n大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說這個很多還各種產業各種缺工狀況嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動\n\n08:40.524 --> 09:01.775\n你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對\n\n09:03.066 --> 09:21.637\n我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情就是我在講過的我說那個記者他把調查報告交給美國的這個非營利勞權團體叫Transparent然後他這裡有一篇就是揭穿台灣紡織業強迫勞動這裡面你也有受訪這個Transparent這個透明組織他們去訪談了90多名的越南菲律賓印尼亞泰國移工\n\n09:32.163 --> 09:48.587\n這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費\n\n09:53.408 --> 10:15.821\n服務費防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面\n\n10:18.542 --> 10:42.842\n調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌\n\n10:43.743 --> 11:06.070\n大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個correctiveactionplan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫那Pentagonia他就講\n\n11:07.410 --> 11:31.026\n還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行\n\n11:33.928 --> 11:56.493\n雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去你如果政府不想管政府不想管市場就起來管\n\n11:57.893 --> 12:18.651\n所以在這種狀況裡面政府說買工費不允許可是人家就是存在那你現在政府不訂法律不修改法律不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼\n\n12:19.994 --> 12:34.920\n看到了政府代呼職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面\n\n12:37.402 --> 13:01.218\n這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩\n\n13:02.319 --> 13:30.330\n在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管\n\n13:31.277 --> 13:53.967\n但是現在就是最終你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了\n\n13:54.787 --> 14:02.511\n政府要扛起扛起責任否則台灣從那個人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題好了即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌\n\n14:17.117 --> 14:39.624\nMadeinTaiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王玉民你只看我所以好吧我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.452,"end":5.778,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長林委員好"},{"start":13.212,"end":36.081,"text":"部长今天讨论平台经济商业模式下大概如何保障外送员的权益在这种状况我们看到说从2012年Full Panda进入台湾开始然后2015年的Uber Eats加入以后大概从业人员至今大概有十几万了吧是多少"},{"start":40.4,"end":56.13,"text":"17萬人4家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關"},{"start":59.197,"end":87.997,"text":"當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項特別是年輕勞工喔去做兼職的選項我們的勞動力已經大幅下降而年輕的勞動力都去這個從事這個外送平台的服務的工作現在有17萬人而且都是年輕的勞動力也不只年輕勞動力居多那你覺得這個跟我們這個產業缺工會不會有相關"},{"start":90.518,"end":95.242,"text":"就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對"},{"start":97.458,"end":123.954,"text":"所以你不敢回答有没有相关我认为你们也是要去正视这个问题即便有相关那也不是外送员的错但我现在讲一些说其实Foodpanda的营运总监他曾经自己说产业缺工跟外送员的增减没有直接关系而是大家要去对于弹性工时的工作的接受度提高"},{"start":124.594,"end":144.944,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個"},{"start":146.605,"end":168.483,"text":"這個專職的這個工作裡面不是勞動藍領階級包括白領階級我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不要都不想來考試了"},{"start":170.024,"end":195.266,"text":"在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估 有沒有"},{"start":196.987,"end":213.54,"text":"跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧"},{"start":214.821,"end":232.402,"text":"他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰"},{"start":233.976,"end":250.483,"text":"這樣講太空了 這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇"},{"start":251.983,"end":263.389,"text":"在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化你不能只講這一句話對不對"},{"start":268.048,"end":283.723,"text":"我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候他裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題"},{"start":285.014,"end":312.455,"text":"那我们怎么样来协助这些产业把法尊该做的法尊跟保障要做到我听你这样讲不行为什么因为牛步化这些等你讨论完了其实这个问题都已经非常严重了所以你们牛步化而现在这是现在进行式而且如火如荼的进行式大家都想要弹性工作而上个礼拜四我们的院长端出了一个全国劳动力总检讨政策"},{"start":313.495,"end":331.007,"text":"他討論是未來的這個移工的引進的速度數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去這個宣示的這樣一個政策然後他們他說啊你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業"},{"start":334.89,"end":339.614,"text":"他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只"},{"start":357.671,"end":380.576,"text":"只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策吧"},{"start":381.978,"end":398.292,"text":"可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重"},{"start":400.359,"end":427.672,"text":"更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了"},{"start":429.335,"end":445.815,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下"},{"start":446.769,"end":465.528,"text":"跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考"},{"start":466.479,"end":490.786,"text":"不是啦 你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓他是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工"},{"start":491.986,"end":519.103,"text":"大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說這個很多還各種產業各種缺工狀況嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動"},{"start":520.524,"end":541.775,"text":"你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對"},{"start":543.066,"end":561.637,"text":"我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情就是我在講過的我說那個記者他把調查報告交給美國的這個非營利勞權團體叫Transparent然後他這裡有一篇就是揭穿台灣紡織業強迫勞動這裡面你也有受訪這個Transparent這個透明組織他們去訪談了90多名的越南菲律賓印尼亞泰國移工"},{"start":572.163,"end":588.587,"text":"這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費"},{"start":593.408,"end":615.821,"text":"服務費防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":618.542,"end":642.842,"text":"調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌"},{"start":643.743,"end":666.07,"text":"大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個corrective action plan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫那Pentagonia他就講"},{"start":667.41,"end":691.026,"text":"還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行"},{"start":693.928,"end":716.493,"text":"雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去 你如果政府不想管政府不想管 市場就起來管"},{"start":717.893,"end":738.651,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 政府說買工費不允許 可是人家就是存在那你現在政府不訂法律 不修改法律 不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼"},{"start":739.994,"end":754.92,"text":"看到了政府代呼職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":757.402,"end":781.218,"text":"這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩"},{"start":782.319,"end":810.33,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管"},{"start":811.277,"end":833.967,"text":"但是現在就是最終你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了"},{"start":834.787,"end":842.511,"text":"政府要扛起扛起責任否則台灣從那個人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題好了即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌"},{"start":857.117,"end":879.624,"text":"Made in Taiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王玉民你只看我所以好吧 我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時24分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天討論在平台經濟商業模式下如何保障外送員的權益，有關這個部分，我們看到從2012年foodpanda進入臺灣開始，然後2015年Uber Eat加入以後，從業人員至今大概有十幾萬人了吧？有多少人？"],["洪部長申翰：是，約17萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：17萬人？"],["洪部長申翰：4家加起來。"],["林委員淑芬：4家加起來？好，沒關係。就你了解，你認為近年臺灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台服務的興起有沒有相關？"],["洪部長申翰：當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項。"],["林委員淑芬：特別是年輕勞工喔！我們的勞動力已經大幅下降，而年輕的勞動力都去從事外送平台服務的工作，現在有17萬人，而且都是年輕的勞動力喔！"],["洪部長申翰：也不只年輕的勞動力。"],["林委員淑芬：居多，你覺得這個跟我們產業缺工會不會有相關？"],["洪部長申翰：這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項。"],["林委員淑芬：而且低門檻。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：所以你不敢回答有沒有相關，我認為你們也是要去正視這個問題，即便有相關也不是外送員的錯。我現在要講的就是，其實foodpanda的營運總監曾經說過，產業缺工跟外送員的增減沒有直接關係，而是大家對於彈性工時工作的接受度提高。在這種狀況下，年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去那一代或過去幾個世代完全不一樣的彈性工作，這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對的，如果大家都選擇要彈性工作，如果大家都不想要被綁在一個專職的工作裡面，不是勞動藍領階級，包括白領階級，我敢說包括我們立法院，包括助理群，包括有證照的專業人士，大家都想要更彈性的工作，甚至連公務人員，大家都不想來考試了。在這種狀況裡面，勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高，未來臺灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化，你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估？有沒有整體產業結構變化的情境推估？有沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解臺灣未來勞動力發展趨勢的時候的確有看到，尤其是年輕的世代，他們對於在工作裡面的彈性需求是越來越高，也希望能更多的兼顧工作跟生活需求，這個彈性的期待可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況，這個事情是我們有看出來的，所以我覺得這的確是接下來我們很多產業跟職場在設計上面的一個滿大的挑戰。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣講太空了，這不行！因為整體臺灣是勞動力缺少，而且缺口很大，新興進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作、家庭和生活品質，他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇，在這種狀況裡面，政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化、就業型態的變化，還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化？你不能只講這一句話，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實有跟幾個產業，包括服務業跟幾個產業在討論，接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工希望能提高在工作裡面的彈性，因為當要提高彈性的時候就有可能會牽涉到法遵的問題，我們怎麼樣來協助這些產業把該做的法遵跟保障要做到……"],["林委員淑芬：我聽你這樣講不行，為什麼？因為牛步化，等你討論完了，問題都已經非常嚴重了，所以你們這樣是牛步化，而現在這個是現在進行式，而且是如火如荼的進行式，大家都想要彈性工作。","上個禮拜四我們的院長端出了一個全國勞動力總檢討政策，他討論的是未來移工引進的速度、數量和方式都將與過去不同，期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力需求。院長主動宣示了這樣的政策，然後說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業。部長，他說勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業，而且這個計畫本來要更早公布，但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公布。這個狀況真的令我們很擔心，如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業，我想你不能只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和引進的機制要重新調整，讓移工制度更有效率、更貼近現況，不是只有這個，你要先從產業鏈結構、勞動力結構的缺口去做整體盤點，盤點完以後才能來講外籍移工的引進政策吧？"],["洪部長申翰：其實……"],["林委員淑芬：可是我剛才聽你這樣說起來好像沒有觸及到全國產業的發展及整體就業型態的改變，那全國未來10年、20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重？更不要講補充原則和替代原則都沒有人在管，我們人民根本都不在乎了，因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他們來替代我們了，除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊白領階級的工作以外，其他都是缺工、缺工、再缺工，所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了。在這種狀況下，我們真的要請教部長，你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來5年、10年的勞動力市場結構變化做出什麼樣的評估？可不可以在這裡先報告一下？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們對整體勞動力政策的供給評估是目前正在進行中，即便是討論到外籍移工的部分，也會以本國勞工的就業機會優先跟勞動條件優先去做相關的思考。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！你說評估當中，但是卓榮泰院長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業，你現在說你們評估當中，你還講移工是要用補充原則，這個就不用強調了，因為大家都知道很多工作臺灣人早就不做，嚴重缺工，大家都知道，比如說農業外籍移工，又比如說各種產業的缺工狀況嚴重，但你還在慢慢吞吞的評估，其實那個大家都不擔心，因為就是沒有人要做。","我最後再講一個買工費的事情，在捷安特強迫勞動的事件之後，後來移工聯盟又開記者會指出有20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取一百多萬的買工費，是透過「1955」去檢舉的，而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費嘛，對不對？你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛，對不對？我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情，就是我講過的，我說那個記者把調查報告交給美國的非營利勞權團體Transparentem，這裡有一篇就是揭穿臺灣紡織業強迫勞動，這裡面你也有受訪，這個透明組織（Transparentem）去訪談了九十多名越南、菲律賓、印尼亞及泰國移工，這些移工受僱於9家紡織業者，向包括Adidas、Patagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名品牌提供原料。他們調查發現有收取買工費、服務費、防止逃跑的押金500至1,000美元不等，還扣留身分文件、執行宵禁、恐嚇與威脅、欺騙等都有。在這種狀況裡面，Transparentem認為臺灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負擔買工費，而且調查發現，還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到、使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水，已經構成聯合國毒品和犯罪問題辦公室人口販運指標。在這種狀況下，透明組織聯絡了9家業者的下游公司，因為臺灣這9家業者供貨給47家國際知名品牌，其中大部分和被點名的供應商開會，要制定矯正計畫，請聽好，有一個corrective action plan，要求臺灣的9家業者要處理報告中的買工費及勞動問題，而且要提出矯正計畫。Patagonia和以生產拉鍊聞名的YKK等表示收到調查後就立即啟動與其在臺供應商國紡企業聯絡，並且展開稽核工作，求證調查內容，結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為。YKK已經跟國紡企業聯絡討論要執行雇主付費原則，讓移工不必再花錢付買工費。所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費，就是所謂RBA零付費的這種原則。","現在這樣搞來搞去，如果政府不管，市場就起來管。在這種狀況裡面，政府說買工費不允許，可是人家就是存在，現在政府不制定法律、不修改法律，不管，Patagonia就要求國紡，國紡最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費，所以這裡面看到什麼？看到了政府怠忽職責，竟然是交給市場，讓YKK自己來要求國紡要付買工費。我想這不會是個案，因為在這種狀況下，這個處境，包括歐盟，包括美國，我想這樣看起來不會是只有捷安特，還包括紡織業，包括臺灣的……只要你要做外銷，你是供貨原料給知名品牌的，未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的成本，這已經刻不容緩。在這種狀況下，我們真的期待政府要硬起來，政府要訂出該有的法律，如果沒有法律規範，因為買工費是在移工的母國就產生了嘛，簽了本票以後到臺灣來，叫他們付債務的費用，不管在母國所簽本票的買工費到底是給臺灣的仲介還是母國的仲介，但是現在最終就是雇主要付這一筆錢，而且不是在紡織業，不是在傳統產業，電子、3C、半導體這一些都是優先已經在做了，當產業界走到這個程度的時候，政府真的要開始扛起責任了，否則臺灣從人口販運到強迫勞動，這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎？不要講說人權問題，即便你不講人權問題，這也是國際競爭、國際品牌的形象問題，我們臺灣的各種品牌，Made in Taiwan已經是國際級的品牌了，所以這個事情刻不容緩！","因為王育敏委員一直看我，好吧，我今天就講到這裡，大家眾所皆知啦，我們希望部長要扛起責任來，該修法的要趕快硬起來修法。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}