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00:00:38,880\n羅委員早部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來\n\n3\n00:00:40,021 --> 00:01:08,931\n這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖\n\n4\n00:01:10,219 --> 00:01:31,301\n我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫\n\n5\n00:01:32,942 --> 00:02:01,110\n所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊\n\n6\n00:02:02,489 --> 00:02:17,175\n面對老寶年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都是在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題\n\n7\n00:02:19,929 --> 00:02:42,737\n簡單來講今天要不是廖瑋祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天未還有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎\n\n8\n00:02:44,414 --> 00:03:00,712\n跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚\n\n9\n00:03:01,332 --> 00:03:21,028\n其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天\n\n10\n00:03:21,889 --> 00:03:48,476\n立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制\n\n11\n00:03:51,981 --> 00:04:18,536\n終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎\n\n12\n00:04:21,007 --> 00:04:46,623\n一些權益上面被片面變更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧\n\n13\n00:04:49,892 --> 00:05:13,086\n不好意思跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思您知不知道就是過去過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法\n\n14\n00:05:13,936 --> 00:05:40,958\n那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢\n\n15\n00:05:42,850 --> 00:06:04,845\n我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛\n\n16\n00:06:05,685 --> 00:06:24,171\n說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版\n\n17\n00:06:25,307 --> 00:06:52,564\n跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者\n\n18\n00:06:54,665 --> 00:07:20,529\n有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題\n\n19\n00:07:21,269 --> 00:07:39,535\n所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定包括一個這個契約該怎麼訂齁應該應記載不應記載事項應該在這裡面有一個更清楚的範定我想有些外送員是很積極的但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死再積極想接單都不一定有\n\n20\n00:07:40,315 --> 00:07:54,863\n這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資啊所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記啊我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們\n\n21\n00:07:55,943 --> 00:08:21,250\n講真的我是重度使用者我們大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利但是這些外送員是在整個沒有保障的制度夾縫生存沒有制度沒有安全沒有最低報酬演算法來決定他們的生死所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們\n\n22\n00:08:22,350 --> 00:08:33,127\n我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責\n\n23\n00:08:35,199 --> 00:08:58,531\n沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為靈啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有\n\n24\n00:08:59,502 --> 00:09:27,702\n那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變為有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎\n\n25\n00:09:28,820 --> 00:09:32,937\n好謝謝羅廷維委員發言請王育民委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5677\t6959\t好 謝主席 有請部長請部長\n15758\t38880\t羅委員早部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來\n40021\t68931\t這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖\n70219\t91301\t我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫\n92942\t121110\t所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊\n122489\t137175\t面對老寶年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都是在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題\n139929\t162737\t簡單來講今天要不是廖瑋祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天未還有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎\n164414\t180712\t跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚\n181332\t201028\t其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天\n201889\t228476\t立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制\n231981\t258536\t終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎\n261007\t286623\t一些權益上面被片面變更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧\n289892\t313086\t不好意思跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思您知不知道就是過去過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法\n313936\t340958\t那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢\n342850\t364845\t我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛\n365685\t384171\t說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版\n385307\t412564\t跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者\n414665\t440529\t有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題\n441269\t459535\t所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定包括一個這個契約該怎麼訂齁應該應記載不應記載事項應該在這裡面有一個更清楚的範定我想有些外送員是很積極的但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死再積極想接單都不一定有\n460315\t474863\t這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資啊所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記啊我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們\n475943\t501250\t講真的我是重度使用者我們大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利但是這些外送員是在整個沒有保障的制度夾縫生存沒有制度沒有安全沒有最低報酬演算法來決定他們的生死所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們\n502350\t513127\t我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責\n515199\t538531\t沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為靈啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有\n539502\t567702\t那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變為有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎\n568820\t572937\t好謝謝羅廷維委員發言請王育民委員發言\n","txt":"好 謝主席 有請部長請部長\n羅委員早部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來\n這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖\n我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫\n所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊\n面對老寶年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都是在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題\n簡單來講今天要不是廖瑋祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天未還有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎\n跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚\n其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天\n立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制\n終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎\n一些權益上面被片面變更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧\n不好意思跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思您知不知道就是過去過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法\n那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢\n我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛\n說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版\n跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者\n有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題\n所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定包括一個這個契約該怎麼訂齁應該應記載不應記載事項應該在這裡面有一個更清楚的範定我想有些外送員是很積極的但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死再積極想接單都不一定有\n這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資啊所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記啊我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們\n講真的我是重度使用者我們大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利但是這些外送員是在整個沒有保障的制度夾縫生存沒有制度沒有安全沒有最低報酬演算法來決定他們的生死所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們\n我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責\n沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為靈啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有\n那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變為有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎\n好謝謝羅廷維委員發言請王育民委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.677 --> 00:06.959\n好謝主席有請部長請部長\n\n00:15.758 --> 00:38.880\n羅委員早部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來\n\n00:40.021 --> 01:08.931\n這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖\n\n01:10.219 --> 01:31.301\n我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫\n\n01:32.942 --> 02:01.110\n所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊\n\n02:02.489 --> 02:17.175\n面對老寶年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都是在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題\n\n02:19.929 --> 02:42.737\n簡單來講今天要不是廖瑋祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天未還有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎\n\n02:44.414 --> 03:00.712\n跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚\n\n03:01.332 --> 03:21.028\n其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天\n\n03:21.889 --> 03:48.476\n立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制\n\n03:51.981 --> 04:18.536\n終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎\n\n04:21.007 --> 04:46.623\n一些權益上面被片面變更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧\n\n04:49.892 --> 05:13.086\n不好意思跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思您知不知道就是過去過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法\n\n05:13.936 --> 05:40.958\n那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢\n\n05:42.850 --> 06:04.845\n我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛\n\n06:05.685 --> 06:24.171\n說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版\n\n06:25.307 --> 06:52.564\n跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者\n\n06:54.665 --> 07:20.529\n有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題\n\n07:21.269 --> 07:39.535\n所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定包括一個這個契約該怎麼訂齁應該應記載不應記載事項應該在這裡面有一個更清楚的範定我想有些外送員是很積極的但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死再積極想接單都不一定有\n\n07:40.315 --> 07:54.863\n這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資啊所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記啊我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們\n\n07:55.943 --> 08:21.250\n講真的我是重度使用者我們大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利但是這些外送員是在整個沒有保障的制度夾縫生存沒有制度沒有安全沒有最低報酬演算法來決定他們的生死所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們\n\n08:22.350 --> 08:33.127\n我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責\n\n08:35.199 --> 08:58.531\n沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為靈啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有\n\n08:59.502 --> 09:27.702\n那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變為有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎\n\n09:28.820 --> 09:32.937\n好謝謝羅廷維委員發言請王育民委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.677,"end":6.959,"text":"好 謝主席 有請部長請部長"},{"start":15.758,"end":38.88,"text":"羅委員早部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來"},{"start":40.021,"end":68.931,"text":"這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖"},{"start":70.219,"end":91.301,"text":"我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫"},{"start":92.942,"end":121.11,"text":"所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊"},{"start":122.489,"end":137.175,"text":"面對老寶年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都是在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題"},{"start":139.929,"end":162.737,"text":"簡單來講今天要不是廖瑋祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天未還有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎"},{"start":164.414,"end":180.712,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚"},{"start":181.332,"end":201.028,"text":"其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天"},{"start":201.889,"end":228.476,"text":"立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制"},{"start":231.981,"end":258.536,"text":"終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":261.007,"end":286.623,"text":"一些權益上面被片面變更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧"},{"start":289.892,"end":313.086,"text":"不好意思跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思您知不知道就是過去過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法"},{"start":313.936,"end":340.958,"text":"那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢"},{"start":342.85,"end":364.845,"text":"我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛"},{"start":365.685,"end":384.171,"text":"說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版"},{"start":385.307,"end":412.564,"text":"跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者"},{"start":414.665,"end":440.529,"text":"有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題"},{"start":441.269,"end":459.535,"text":"所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定包括一個這個契約該怎麼訂齁應該應記載不應記載事項應該在這裡面有一個更清楚的範定我想有些外送員是很積極的但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死再積極想接單都不一定有"},{"start":460.315,"end":474.863,"text":"這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資啊所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記啊我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們"},{"start":475.943,"end":501.25,"text":"講真的我是重度使用者我們大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利但是這些外送員是在整個沒有保障的制度夾縫生存沒有制度沒有安全沒有最低報酬演算法來決定他們的生死所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們"},{"start":502.35,"end":513.127,"text":"我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責"},{"start":515.199,"end":538.531,"text":"沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為靈啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有"},{"start":539.502,"end":567.702,"text":"那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變為有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎"},{"start":568.82,"end":572.937,"text":"好謝謝羅廷維委員發言請王育民委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時51分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：羅委員早。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長早。今天我們在審這個草案，我想平台一年比一年賺，我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強，外送員的報酬一年比一年低，今天排審的總共有6個版本，包含民眾黨、國民黨以及各委員的版本，我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來，這些法案當中還有很多委員積極在連署，但是大家聚焦在一個點，就是外送員的權益，裡面沒有政治的語言、政治的立場，都是希望基本保障外送員的權益，我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了，面對外送員專法，我們現在看到勞動部的報告，我只有一個字要送給部長，部長，這個字很簡單，就是「拖」，你們到底在拖什麼？勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣？外送員的平台被停權了、被剝奪了，怎麼辦？拖！現在外送員面對片面降低了報酬怎麼辦？拖！面對整個要立專法的聲音，勞動部的態度怎麼辦？拖！","所以我要跟大家講，我們看到勞動部報告第5頁裡面寫的：「能夠兼顧各方權益，尚須透過跨部會的分工，聆聽各方意見，促成整個權益性的調整精進。」部長，你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識？勞動部面對外送員專法的態度，就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊！面對勞保年金的態度是什麼？持續蒐集各方意見，尋求共識。兩者哪裡不一樣？文字上不一樣，語意都一樣，都是在拖，拖字訣啊！面對一切不想面對的問題。簡單來講，今天要不是廖偉翔召委排審，要不是我們衛環有這樣的態度，召委有這樣的決心，我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話，要立專法，我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情，外送員在等勞動部拖，您知道拖多久嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題，其實在我上任以後，我到勞動部以後，我們就來檢視相關的勞動法規，包括指引，我想我們的同仁很清楚，其實我們那時候覺得恐怕是需要往法制化的方向來走，所以這幾個月我們也很積極的跟外送社群來去做討論，針對如果要法制化的話，要放入哪些相關重要的權益，還有這個條文應該怎麼設計，所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了，所以並不是拖。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想慢一天立這個專法，平台就多賺一天的錢，十四萬多名外送員就會多被剝削一天，我們到底拖了多久？答案是6年11個月21天，早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出，應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護機制，終於到洪部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理，那前面的部長到底在幹嘛？這幾年到底在幹嘛？我們在等什麼？等了6年的心酸啊！這6年被剝削了多少錢？這6年這些平台賺了多少錢？今天很高興聽到部長說會送院版，但是部長你知道為什麼前面幾次外送工會會罷工嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：一些權益被片面變更。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：其實外送員在向勞動部要求立專法的時候，勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該說過去的確對於立專法是比較保留的，但是當然我們現在……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以部長你知道，對吧？不好意思，跟您請問一下，不要單單用點頭或者是側面的點頭，這是什麼意思？您知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面，其實在整體立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚，但我想我們現在是清楚的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我想你知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法，那為什麼當初不要專法，現在又要同意專法？就連何佩珊部長，當時我問他，他都說他是個人立場支持而已，所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多時間，為自己爭取最基本的、維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴，勞動部都看在眼裡，但是沒有動作，勞動部就是怠惰！這麼多年沒有作為，誰要負這個責任？部長您說呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我想針對外送員的權益，接下來我們朝野應該可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作，因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的，其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分，這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題，我覺得我們可以做得很好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我必須譴責勞動部，過去這樣子就是拖嘛！說穿了就是拖，為什麼相關制度性的設計，我們對於保障薪資、對於停權透明之前不做，這麼久了，所以我一個關鍵的問題，院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院？還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在基本上行政部門的版本，我們進入到最後收整的階段……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以什麼時候？不好意思。"],["洪部長申翰：其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制作業，我們可能3個月。"],["羅委員廷瑋：3個月內？"],["洪部長申翰：3個月內。"],["羅委員廷瑋：3個月內，我想外送員的薪資待遇、接單率，都是由平台的大數據來決定，平台演算法決定了他的生死，不像傳統計程車業者有一個固定的模式，針對演算法這樣的黑洞，我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範，您覺得呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我想其實對於外送員，我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障，或者是程序面的保障，因為確實這裡面也涉及到外送員跟平台之間一些契約上面的問題，所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定，包括這個契約該怎麼訂，應記載不應記載事項應該在這邊有一個更清楚的範定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想有些外送員是很積極的，但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死，再積極想接單都不一定有，這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資，所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明，演算法的部分也不能夠忘記。","我想我最後再表態一下我的立場，講真的，我是重度使用者，我們大家很多人都是重度使用者，所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利，但是這些外送員是在沒有保障的制度下夾縫生存，沒有制度、沒有安全、沒有最低報酬，演算法來決定他們的生死，所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們？我們現在看到這樣子，沒有人來為他們的權利來做保障，他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責？沒有，平台決定了他的生死，所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境，下雨天上路、夜間上路，時時與交通事故為鄰，然後面對的是平台的停權、平台的沒有理由，平台的申訴機會都沒有，所以勞動部你說你是勞工的靠山？沒有，那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他，所以未來我們希望不只是給保險，他的勞權能夠真正地被正視，要有制度性的保障，要有最低的報酬及透明的停權機制，讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割，變為有尊嚴、受保障的勞動者，這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來，3個月內，再麻煩加速好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員發言。","請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}