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00:00:23,335\n對不好意思我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都詢答結束為止請莊委員謝謝昭偉我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好委員好副秘書長好\n\n2\n00:00:25,130 --> 00:00:50,749\n在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種\n\n3\n00:00:52,948 --> 00:01:06,718\n這種追劇的時候過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道負面或者聽者有沒有聽過看過包公呢當看到刑案一發生以後就派人出去就抓過來抓過來以後呢就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了問完以後呢不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講就三十大板一打下去了招了\n\n4\n00:01:16,766 --> 00:01:43,300\n然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把他給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去\n\n5\n00:01:48,031 --> 00:02:01,495\n威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判\n\n6\n00:02:16,906 --> 00:02:36,441\n判你死刑就是死刑了但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判\n\n7\n00:02:36,981 --> 00:02:52,489\n公平的一個審判那公平的審判其實就是要看說這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合這個事實在這個過程裡面到底是符不符合法律的正當程序我要特別提醒我們刑訴訴訟法379條那個判決當然違背法令379條那個14款裡面講得那麼清楚如果說把它定性成說公開播送就是直播\n\n8\n00:03:04,375 --> 00:03:15,013\n那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令\n\n9\n00:03:16,294 --> 00:03:36,443\n如果按照民眾的講法是你這個人可惡你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵哪怕有刑求哪怕有人偽證但是發明最後發現嘿剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已都不可以啊\n\n10\n00:03:37,635 --> 00:03:43,117\n我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心\n\n11\n00:03:56,603 --> 00:04:13,083\n從國外或者說我們的大法官裡面我們也都去肯認民眾本來就想有向法案提起事實審判的一個請求權而且包括聽審公正程序跟公開審判的一個請求權跟程序上的一個平等公開審理有一個好處就是說\n\n12\n00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:44,096\n大眾他也滿足他知的權利那藉這個審理的過程裡面讓整個法治的教育也可以提升那公開社會當然也就會對司法比較信任那如果說你把公開審理到最後你把它導成是一個變成是一個直播而不是它的核心價值是公平審判的話我記得在我們在審的過程裡面我講得很清楚\n\n13\n00:04:45,171 --> 00:05:11,577\n大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人\n\n14\n00:05:13,154 --> 00:05:31,970\n那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦那款案件三年了你也敢去做人的律師性侵的你也虧空的事情你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪所以被告的辯護權他本身的權益更特別要去保障他為什麼怕脫罪嘛你看以前的有時候一個案件落後這個A\n\n15\n00:05:39,226 --> 00:05:59,257\n可不可惡很可惡啊他去殺人啊可是當年很多警察辦案是你殺了一個人你一定殺了很多人那乾脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果殺了一個人你判他死刑合理啊但他殺一個人你判他三個死刑判他殺三個死刑刑事案件都是他幹的全部栽給他\n\n16\n00:06:00,798 --> 00:06:22,571\n为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组织法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚了你让他去公开播送\n\n17\n00:06:24,006 --> 00:06:46,043\n這個當然法就有爭議那本席當初是想說沒關係尤其是法律省尤其是做社會重大矚目的一個案件那這一些少事法家事法庭制裁這個部分只要這個部分把它做一個排除的話那是好事那也是我們去召開的公聽會以後學者專家大家認為說有疑慮\n\n18\n00:06:48,044 --> 00:07:09,964\n立法院不能這樣亂搞不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈把他先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候大家也講得很清楚大家要的其實也不是直播就是要整個公開播送而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法\n\n19\n00:07:11,656 --> 00:07:21,896\n司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且\n\n20\n00:07:23,260 --> 00:07:45,550\n法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播\n\n21\n00:07:46,910 --> 00:08:13,085\n這個本席表達反對啦那我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝那個委員剛才那個很精闢的那個論述我們司法行政呢其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在那個促進跟維護那個審判的那個公正就是委員說那個公平那個審判那所以呢\n\n22\n00:08:14,125 --> 00:08:28,647\n公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看嘛那所以呢我們避免就是說\n\n23\n00:08:29,668 --> 00:08:57,851\n在立法過程中大家所的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢\n\n24\n00:08:58,371 --> 00:09:24,011\n我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後\n\n25\n00:09:24,631 --> 00:09:42,764\n就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送\n\n26\n00:09:43,683 --> 00:10:10,118\n不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後嘛那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講\n\n27\n00:10:13,174 --> 00:10:35,681\n老百姓覺得很爽好爽喔你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事啦那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次啊有幾個問題啊要來就教副秘書長的就是說\n\n28\n00:10:39,706 --> 00:11:02,524\n我們在看這一次精神衛生法的一個參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理\n\n29\n00:11:05,206 --> 00:11:34,395\n那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级名人就要上路了嘛名人就要上路了但是呢有几个问题啊我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审\n\n30\n00:11:34,855 --> 00:12:01,956\n那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟\n\n31\n00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:08,179\n因應措施你像比如說教育的訓練專業的資源諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多這期間以來都有跟\n\n32\n00:12:24,768 --> 00:12:47,632\n衛福部相關部會就是做這個跨部會的協調跟那個訂定那個執法那硬體方面的就是有新的那個法庭的建構跟那個資訊系統那這些我想就是時間關係我就不詳細說那至於委員所關心的這個呢就是沒錯就是法官跟那個意見都需要有那個賠利就是對於這個新制度所以我們辦了很多\n\n33\n00:12:48,192 --> 00:13:10,943\n那個跨領域合作的這個社區共事營那還有就是工作坊也就是說這個共事那個賠利啦就是對於相關的這一些我們的那個法官啊還有那個醫界跟那個心理專家還有社工的這些那個領域專家就是做這個那個共事那個賠利那另外呢就是對於推廣這樣子那個制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的這個社區共事營來做這個社會溝通\n\n34\n00:13:16,209 --> 00:13:23,235\n我比較擔心的是什麼你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來依法官的習性法官就是\n\n35\n00:13:24,915 --> 00:13:47,405\n這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題要送去病院你像比如說你精神衛生法裡面第七十條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題你代理人的希望說不要去\n\n36\n00:13:49,738 --> 00:14:16,318\n不要去賓夷啦就老師說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去啦那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置啦那老師就跟你說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回覆來廳長\n\n37\n00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:42,935\n謝謝委員的催省這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候\n\n38\n00:14:44,676 --> 00:15:02,148\n緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在\n\n39\n00:15:03,088 --> 00:15:13,155\n精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論、共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些收集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告\n\n40\n00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:59,916\n其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊改建的一個工程的一個進度啊像這一些啊都要再去\n\n41\n00:16:00,736 --> 00:16:24,238\n夾把勁啦畢竟喔這個這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊啦這塊以前不是你們的部委啦但問題是法官也不是上帝啦那以現在來看的話精神衛生法它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法必須要那麼多的一個團體還有跨部會\n\n42\n00:16:24,895 --> 00:16:39,585\n那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1880\t23335\t對 不好意思 我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都詢答結束為止請莊委員謝謝昭偉 我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好 委員好副秘書長好\n25130\t50749\t在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種\n52948\t66718\t這種追劇的時候 過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道負面或者聽者有沒有聽過 看過包公呢 當看到刑案一發生以後 就派人出去 就抓過來抓過來以後呢 就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了 問完以後呢 不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講 就三十大板一打下去了 招了\n76766\t103300\t然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把他給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去\n108031\t121495\t威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判\n136906\t156441\t判你死刑就是死刑了但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判\n156981\t172489\t公平的一個審判那公平的審判其實就是要看說這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合這個事實在這個過程裡面到底是符不符合法律的正當程序我要特別提醒我們刑訴訴訟法379條那個判決當然違背法令379條那個14款裡面講得那麼清楚如果說把它定性成說公開播送就是直播\n184375\t195013\t那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令\n196294\t216443\t如果按照民眾的講法是 你這個人可惡 你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵 哪怕有刑求 哪怕有人偽證但是發明 最後發現 嘿 剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已 都不可以啊\n217635\t223117\t我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心\n236603\t253083\t從國外或者說我們的大法官裡面我們也都去肯認民眾本來就想有向法案提起事實審判的一個請求權而且包括聽審公正程序跟公開審判的一個請求權跟程序上的一個平等公開審理有一個好處就是說\n255236\t284096\t大眾他也滿足他知的權利那藉這個審理的過程裡面讓整個法治的教育也可以提升那公開社會當然也就會對司法比較信任那如果說你把公開審理到最後你把它導成是一個變成是一個直播而不是它的核心價值是公平審判的話我記得在我們在審的過程裡面我講得很清楚\n285171\t311577\t大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人\n313154\t331970\t那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊 因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦 那款案件 三年了 你也敢去做人的律師性侵的 你也虧空的事情 你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪 所以被告的辯護權 他本身的權益更特別要去保障他 為什麼 怕脫罪嘛你看以前的 有時候 一個案件落後 這個A\n339226\t359257\t可不可惡很可惡啊他去殺人啊可是當年很多警察辦案是你殺了一個人你一定殺了很多人那乾脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果殺了一個人你判他死刑合理啊但他殺一個人你判他三個死刑判他殺三個死刑刑事案件都是他幹的全部栽給他\n360798\t382571\t为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组织法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚了你让他去公开播送\n384006\t406043\t這個當然法就有爭議那本席當初是想說沒關係尤其是法律省尤其是做社會重大矚目的一個案件那這一些少事法 家事法庭制裁這個部分只要這個部分把它做一個排除的話那是好事那也是我們去召開的公聽會以後學者專家大家認為說有疑慮\n408044\t429964\t立法院不能這樣亂搞不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈把他先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候大家也講得很清楚大家要的其實也不是直播就是要整個公開播送而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法\n431656\t441896\t司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且\n443260\t465550\t法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播\n466910\t493085\t這個本席表達反對啦那我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝那個委員剛才那個很精闢的那個論述我們司法行政呢其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在那個促進跟維護那個審判的那個公正就是委員說那個公平那個審判那所以呢\n494125\t508647\t公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看嘛那所以呢我們避免就是說\n509668\t537851\t在立法過程中大家所的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢\n538371\t564011\t我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後\n564631\t582764\t就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送\n583683\t610118\t不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後嘛那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講\n613174\t635681\t老百姓覺得很爽好爽喔 你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事啦那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次啊有幾個問題啊要來就教副秘書長的就是說\n639706\t662524\t我們在看這一次精神衛生法的一個參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理\n665206\t694395\t那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级名人就要上路了嘛名人就要上路了但是呢有几个问题啊我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审\n694855\t721956\t那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟\n722396\t728179\t因應措施 你像比如說教育的訓練 專業的資源 諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多這期間以來都有跟\n744768\t767632\t衛福部相關部會就是做這個跨部會的協調跟那個訂定那個執法那硬體方面的就是有新的那個法庭的建構跟那個資訊系統那這些我想就是時間關係我就不詳細說那至於委員所關心的這個呢就是沒錯就是法官跟那個意見都需要有那個賠利就是對於這個新制度所以我們辦了很多\n768192\t790943\t那個跨領域合作的這個社區共事營那還有就是工作坊也就是說這個共事那個賠利啦就是對於相關的這一些我們的那個法官啊還有那個醫界跟那個心理專家還有社工的這些那個領域專家就是做這個那個共事那個賠利那另外呢就是對於推廣這樣子那個制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的這個社區共事營來做這個社會溝通\n796209\t803235\t我比較擔心的是什麼你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來 依法官的習性法官就是\n804915\t827405\t這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題 要送去病院你像比如說 你精神衛生法裡面第七十條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人 沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人 並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題 你代理人的希望說不要去\n829738\t856318\t不要去賓夷啦就老師說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去啦那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官 你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置啦那老師就跟你說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候 你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回覆來 廳長\n859440\t882935\t謝謝委員的催省這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候\n884676\t902148\t緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在\n903088\t913155\t精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論、共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些收集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告\n931320\t959916\t其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊改建的一個工程的一個進度啊像這一些啊都要再去\n960736\t984238\t夾把勁啦 畢竟喔 這個 這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊啦這塊以前不是你們的部委啦 但問題是法官也不是上帝啦那以現在來看的話 精神衛生法 它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法 必須要那麼多的一個團體 還有跨部會\n984895\t999585\t那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好 謝謝\n","txt":"對 不好意思 我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都詢答結束為止請莊委員謝謝昭偉 我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好 委員好副秘書長好\n在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種\n這種追劇的時候 過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道負面或者聽者有沒有聽過 看過包公呢 當看到刑案一發生以後 就派人出去 就抓過來抓過來以後呢 就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了 問完以後呢 不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講 就三十大板一打下去了 招了\n然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把他給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去\n威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判\n判你死刑就是死刑了但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判\n公平的一個審判那公平的審判其實就是要看說這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合這個事實在這個過程裡面到底是符不符合法律的正當程序我要特別提醒我們刑訴訴訟法379條那個判決當然違背法令379條那個14款裡面講得那麼清楚如果說把它定性成說公開播送就是直播\n那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令\n如果按照民眾的講法是 你這個人可惡 你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵 哪怕有刑求 哪怕有人偽證但是發明 最後發現 嘿 剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已 都不可以啊\n我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心\n從國外或者說我們的大法官裡面我們也都去肯認民眾本來就想有向法案提起事實審判的一個請求權而且包括聽審公正程序跟公開審判的一個請求權跟程序上的一個平等公開審理有一個好處就是說\n大眾他也滿足他知的權利那藉這個審理的過程裡面讓整個法治的教育也可以提升那公開社會當然也就會對司法比較信任那如果說你把公開審理到最後你把它導成是一個變成是一個直播而不是它的核心價值是公平審判的話我記得在我們在審的過程裡面我講得很清楚\n大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人\n那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊 因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦 那款案件 三年了 你也敢去做人的律師性侵的 你也虧空的事情 你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪 所以被告的辯護權 他本身的權益更特別要去保障他 為什麼 怕脫罪嘛你看以前的 有時候 一個案件落後 這個A\n可不可惡很可惡啊他去殺人啊可是當年很多警察辦案是你殺了一個人你一定殺了很多人那乾脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果殺了一個人你判他死刑合理啊但他殺一個人你判他三個死刑判他殺三個死刑刑事案件都是他幹的全部栽給他\n为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组织法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚了你让他去公开播送\n這個當然法就有爭議那本席當初是想說沒關係尤其是法律省尤其是做社會重大矚目的一個案件那這一些少事法 家事法庭制裁這個部分只要這個部分把它做一個排除的話那是好事那也是我們去召開的公聽會以後學者專家大家認為說有疑慮\n立法院不能這樣亂搞不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈把他先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候大家也講得很清楚大家要的其實也不是直播就是要整個公開播送而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法\n司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且\n法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播\n這個本席表達反對啦那我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝那個委員剛才那個很精闢的那個論述我們司法行政呢其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在那個促進跟維護那個審判的那個公正就是委員說那個公平那個審判那所以呢\n公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看嘛那所以呢我們避免就是說\n在立法過程中大家所的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢\n我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後\n就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送\n不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後嘛那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講\n老百姓覺得很爽好爽喔 你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事啦那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次啊有幾個問題啊要來就教副秘書長的就是說\n我們在看這一次精神衛生法的一個參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理\n那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级名人就要上路了嘛名人就要上路了但是呢有几个问题啊我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审\n那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟\n因應措施 你像比如說教育的訓練 專業的資源 諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多這期間以來都有跟\n衛福部相關部會就是做這個跨部會的協調跟那個訂定那個執法那硬體方面的就是有新的那個法庭的建構跟那個資訊系統那這些我想就是時間關係我就不詳細說那至於委員所關心的這個呢就是沒錯就是法官跟那個意見都需要有那個賠利就是對於這個新制度所以我們辦了很多\n那個跨領域合作的這個社區共事營那還有就是工作坊也就是說這個共事那個賠利啦就是對於相關的這一些我們的那個法官啊還有那個醫界跟那個心理專家還有社工的這些那個領域專家就是做這個那個共事那個賠利那另外呢就是對於推廣這樣子那個制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的這個社區共事營來做這個社會溝通\n我比較擔心的是什麼你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來 依法官的習性法官就是\n這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題 要送去病院你像比如說 你精神衛生法裡面第七十條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人 沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人 並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題 你代理人的希望說不要去\n不要去賓夷啦就老師說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去啦那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官 你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置啦那老師就跟你說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候 你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回覆來 廳長\n謝謝委員的催省這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候\n緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在\n精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論、共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些收集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告\n其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊改建的一個工程的一個進度啊像這一些啊都要再去\n夾把勁啦 畢竟喔 這個 這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊啦這塊以前不是你們的部委啦 但問題是法官也不是上帝啦那以現在來看的話 精神衛生法 它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法 必須要那麼多的一個團體 還有跨部會\n那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.880 --> 00:23.335\n對不好意思我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都詢答結束為止請莊委員謝謝昭偉我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好委員好副秘書長好\n\n00:25.130 --> 00:50.749\n在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種\n\n00:52.948 --> 01:06.718\n這種追劇的時候過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道負面或者聽者有沒有聽過看過包公呢當看到刑案一發生以後就派人出去就抓過來抓過來以後呢就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了問完以後呢不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講就三十大板一打下去了招了\n\n01:16.766 --> 01:43.300\n然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把他給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去\n\n01:48.031 --> 02:01.495\n威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判\n\n02:16.906 --> 02:36.441\n判你死刑就是死刑了但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判\n\n02:36.981 --> 02:52.489\n公平的一個審判那公平的審判其實就是要看說這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合這個事實在這個過程裡面到底是符不符合法律的正當程序我要特別提醒我們刑訴訴訟法379條那個判決當然違背法令379條那個14款裡面講得那麼清楚如果說把它定性成說公開播送就是直播\n\n03:04.375 --> 03:15.013\n那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令\n\n03:16.294 --> 03:36.443\n如果按照民眾的講法是你這個人可惡你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵哪怕有刑求哪怕有人偽證但是發明最後發現嘿剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已都不可以啊\n\n03:37.635 --> 03:43.117\n我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心\n\n03:56.603 --> 04:13.083\n從國外或者說我們的大法官裡面我們也都去肯認民眾本來就想有向法案提起事實審判的一個請求權而且包括聽審公正程序跟公開審判的一個請求權跟程序上的一個平等公開審理有一個好處就是說\n\n04:15.236 --> 04:44.096\n大眾他也滿足他知的權利那藉這個審理的過程裡面讓整個法治的教育也可以提升那公開社會當然也就會對司法比較信任那如果說你把公開審理到最後你把它導成是一個變成是一個直播而不是它的核心價值是公平審判的話我記得在我們在審的過程裡面我講得很清楚\n\n04:45.171 --> 05:11.577\n大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人\n\n05:13.154 --> 05:31.970\n那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦那款案件三年了你也敢去做人的律師性侵的你也虧空的事情你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪所以被告的辯護權他本身的權益更特別要去保障他為什麼怕脫罪嘛你看以前的有時候一個案件落後這個A\n\n05:39.226 --> 05:59.257\n可不可惡很可惡啊他去殺人啊可是當年很多警察辦案是你殺了一個人你一定殺了很多人那乾脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果殺了一個人你判他死刑合理啊但他殺一個人你判他三個死刑判他殺三個死刑刑事案件都是他幹的全部栽給他\n\n06:00.798 --> 06:22.571\n为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组织法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚了你让他去公开播送\n\n06:24.006 --> 06:46.043\n這個當然法就有爭議那本席當初是想說沒關係尤其是法律省尤其是做社會重大矚目的一個案件那這一些少事法家事法庭制裁這個部分只要這個部分把它做一個排除的話那是好事那也是我們去召開的公聽會以後學者專家大家認為說有疑慮\n\n06:48.044 --> 07:09.964\n立法院不能這樣亂搞不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈把他先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候大家也講得很清楚大家要的其實也不是直播就是要整個公開播送而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法\n\n07:11.656 --> 07:21.896\n司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且\n\n07:23.260 --> 07:45.550\n法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播\n\n07:46.910 --> 08:13.085\n這個本席表達反對啦那我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝那個委員剛才那個很精闢的那個論述我們司法行政呢其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在那個促進跟維護那個審判的那個公正就是委員說那個公平那個審判那所以呢\n\n08:14.125 --> 08:28.647\n公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看嘛那所以呢我們避免就是說\n\n08:29.668 --> 08:57.851\n在立法過程中大家所的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢\n\n08:58.371 --> 09:24.011\n我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後\n\n09:24.631 --> 09:42.764\n就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送\n\n09:43.683 --> 10:10.118\n不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後嘛那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講\n\n10:13.174 --> 10:35.681\n老百姓覺得很爽好爽喔你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事啦那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次啊有幾個問題啊要來就教副秘書長的就是說\n\n10:39.706 --> 11:02.524\n我們在看這一次精神衛生法的一個參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理\n\n11:05.206 --> 11:34.395\n那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级名人就要上路了嘛名人就要上路了但是呢有几个问题啊我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审\n\n11:34.855 --> 12:01.956\n那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟\n\n12:02.396 --> 12:08.179\n因應措施你像比如說教育的訓練專業的資源諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多這期間以來都有跟\n\n12:24.768 --> 12:47.632\n衛福部相關部會就是做這個跨部會的協調跟那個訂定那個執法那硬體方面的就是有新的那個法庭的建構跟那個資訊系統那這些我想就是時間關係我就不詳細說那至於委員所關心的這個呢就是沒錯就是法官跟那個意見都需要有那個賠利就是對於這個新制度所以我們辦了很多\n\n12:48.192 --> 13:10.943\n那個跨領域合作的這個社區共事營那還有就是工作坊也就是說這個共事那個賠利啦就是對於相關的這一些我們的那個法官啊還有那個醫界跟那個心理專家還有社工的這些那個領域專家就是做這個那個共事那個賠利那另外呢就是對於推廣這樣子那個制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的這個社區共事營來做這個社會溝通\n\n13:16.209 --> 13:23.235\n我比較擔心的是什麼你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來依法官的習性法官就是\n\n13:24.915 --> 13:47.405\n這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題要送去病院你像比如說你精神衛生法裡面第七十條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題你代理人的希望說不要去\n\n13:49.738 --> 14:16.318\n不要去賓夷啦就老師說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去啦那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置啦那老師就跟你說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回覆來廳長\n\n14:19.440 --> 14:42.935\n謝謝委員的催省這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候\n\n14:44.676 --> 15:02.148\n緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在\n\n15:03.088 --> 15:13.155\n精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論、共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些收集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告\n\n15:31.320 --> 15:59.916\n其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊改建的一個工程的一個進度啊像這一些啊都要再去\n\n16:00.736 --> 16:24.238\n夾把勁啦畢竟喔這個這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊啦這塊以前不是你們的部委啦但問題是法官也不是上帝啦那以現在來看的話精神衛生法它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法必須要那麼多的一個團體還有跨部會\n\n16:24.895 --> 16:39.585\n那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.88,"end":23.335,"text":"對 不好意思 我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都詢答結束為止請莊委員謝謝昭偉 我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好 委員好副秘書長好"},{"start":25.13,"end":50.749,"text":"在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種"},{"start":52.948,"end":66.718,"text":"這種追劇的時候 過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道負面或者聽者有沒有聽過 看過包公呢 當看到刑案一發生以後 就派人出去 就抓過來抓過來以後呢 就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了 問完以後呢 不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講 就三十大板一打下去了 招了"},{"start":76.766,"end":103.3,"text":"然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把他給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去"},{"start":108.031,"end":121.495,"text":"威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判"},{"start":136.906,"end":156.441,"text":"判你死刑就是死刑了但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判"},{"start":156.981,"end":172.489,"text":"公平的一個審判那公平的審判其實就是要看說這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合這個事實在這個過程裡面到底是符不符合法律的正當程序我要特別提醒我們刑訴訴訟法379條那個判決當然違背法令379條那個14款裡面講得那麼清楚如果說把它定性成說公開播送就是直播"},{"start":184.375,"end":195.013,"text":"那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令"},{"start":196.294,"end":216.443,"text":"如果按照民眾的講法是 你這個人可惡 你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵 哪怕有刑求 哪怕有人偽證但是發明 最後發現 嘿 剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已 都不可以啊"},{"start":217.635,"end":223.117,"text":"我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心"},{"start":236.603,"end":253.083,"text":"從國外或者說我們的大法官裡面我們也都去肯認民眾本來就想有向法案提起事實審判的一個請求權而且包括聽審公正程序跟公開審判的一個請求權跟程序上的一個平等公開審理有一個好處就是說"},{"start":255.236,"end":284.096,"text":"大眾他也滿足他知的權利那藉這個審理的過程裡面讓整個法治的教育也可以提升那公開社會當然也就會對司法比較信任那如果說你把公開審理到最後你把它導成是一個變成是一個直播而不是它的核心價值是公平審判的話我記得在我們在審的過程裡面我講得很清楚"},{"start":285.171,"end":311.577,"text":"大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人"},{"start":313.154,"end":331.97,"text":"那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊 因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦 那款案件 三年了 你也敢去做人的律師性侵的 你也虧空的事情 你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪 所以被告的辯護權 他本身的權益更特別要去保障他 為什麼 怕脫罪嘛你看以前的 有時候 一個案件落後 這個A"},{"start":339.226,"end":359.257,"text":"可不可惡很可惡啊他去殺人啊可是當年很多警察辦案是你殺了一個人你一定殺了很多人那乾脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果殺了一個人你判他死刑合理啊但他殺一個人你判他三個死刑判他殺三個死刑刑事案件都是他幹的全部栽給他"},{"start":360.798,"end":382.571,"text":"为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组织法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚了你让他去公开播送"},{"start":384.006,"end":406.043,"text":"這個當然法就有爭議那本席當初是想說沒關係尤其是法律省尤其是做社會重大矚目的一個案件那這一些少事法 家事法庭制裁這個部分只要這個部分把它做一個排除的話那是好事那也是我們去召開的公聽會以後學者專家大家認為說有疑慮"},{"start":408.044,"end":429.964,"text":"立法院不能這樣亂搞不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈把他先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候大家也講得很清楚大家要的其實也不是直播就是要整個公開播送而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法"},{"start":431.656,"end":441.896,"text":"司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且"},{"start":443.26,"end":465.55,"text":"法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播"},{"start":466.91,"end":493.085,"text":"這個本席表達反對啦那我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝那個委員剛才那個很精闢的那個論述我們司法行政呢其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在那個促進跟維護那個審判的那個公正就是委員說那個公平那個審判那所以呢"},{"start":494.125,"end":508.647,"text":"公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看嘛那所以呢我們避免就是說"},{"start":509.668,"end":537.851,"text":"在立法過程中大家所的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢"},{"start":538.371,"end":564.011,"text":"我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後"},{"start":564.631,"end":582.764,"text":"就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送"},{"start":583.683,"end":610.118,"text":"不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後嘛那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講"},{"start":613.174,"end":635.681,"text":"老百姓覺得很爽好爽喔 你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事啦那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次啊有幾個問題啊要來就教副秘書長的就是說"},{"start":639.706,"end":662.524,"text":"我們在看這一次精神衛生法的一個參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理"},{"start":665.206,"end":694.395,"text":"那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级名人就要上路了嘛名人就要上路了但是呢有几个问题啊我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审"},{"start":694.855,"end":721.956,"text":"那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟"},{"start":722.396,"end":728.179,"text":"因應措施 你像比如說教育的訓練 專業的資源 諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多這期間以來都有跟"},{"start":744.768,"end":767.632,"text":"衛福部相關部會就是做這個跨部會的協調跟那個訂定那個執法那硬體方面的就是有新的那個法庭的建構跟那個資訊系統那這些我想就是時間關係我就不詳細說那至於委員所關心的這個呢就是沒錯就是法官跟那個意見都需要有那個賠利就是對於這個新制度所以我們辦了很多"},{"start":768.192,"end":790.943,"text":"那個跨領域合作的這個社區共事營那還有就是工作坊也就是說這個共事那個賠利啦就是對於相關的這一些我們的那個法官啊還有那個醫界跟那個心理專家還有社工的這些那個領域專家就是做這個那個共事那個賠利那另外呢就是對於推廣這樣子那個制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的這個社區共事營來做這個社會溝通"},{"start":796.209,"end":803.235,"text":"我比較擔心的是什麼你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來 依法官的習性法官就是"},{"start":804.915,"end":827.405,"text":"這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題 要送去病院你像比如說 你精神衛生法裡面第七十條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人 沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人 並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題 你代理人的希望說不要去"},{"start":829.738,"end":856.318,"text":"不要去賓夷啦就老師說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去啦那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官 你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置啦那老師就跟你說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候 你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回覆來 廳長"},{"start":859.44,"end":882.935,"text":"謝謝委員的催省這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候"},{"start":884.676,"end":902.148,"text":"緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在"},{"start":903.088,"end":913.155,"text":"精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論、共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些收集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告"},{"start":931.32,"end":959.916,"text":"其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊改建的一個工程的一個進度啊像這一些啊都要再去"},{"start":960.736,"end":984.238,"text":"夾把勁啦 畢竟喔 這個 這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊啦這塊以前不是你們的部委啦 但問題是法官也不是上帝啦那以現在來看的話 精神衛生法 它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法 必須要那麼多的一個團體 還有跨部會"},{"start":984.895,"end":999.585,"text":"那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時55分）謝謝召委。有請司法院王副秘書長以及刑事廳李廳長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘好。我剛剛在辦公室以及議場聆聽了很多委員的意見，實在有很多的感慨。到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播，這個都有討論的空間。我覺得很感慨的是關於司法的進程，從過去那種威權時代，大家很喜歡看戲，尤其追劇的時候，過去我常看包公，不知道副秘或者廳長有沒有聽過或看過？包公看到刑案一發生以後，他就派人出去把嫌犯抓過來，抓過來以後自己當檢察官就開始問了。如果王朝、馬漢把嫌犯抓來以後他都不講，那麼三十大板一打下去就招了，然後包公自己又當法官把他給判下去了。當初收視率很高，民眾看得很爽，民眾會覺得這是正義的聲張，可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽的那種制度卻被全世界揚棄了？因為人類變文明了。","我們今天要談公開播送的時候，我有很大的感慨。從過去威權時代那種一個人可以扮演警察、又可以扮演檢察官、又可以扮演法官的角色，就是因為要去制約這樣的權力，所以後來才會要求應該要公開審理。為什麼要公開審理？它的相對就是秘密審判，秘密審判太可怕了！過去極權時代或者皇權的時候，好多都是秘密審判，判你死刑就是死刑。就公開審理而言，憲法裡面一直在講……你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面，憲法也沒有去講公開審理，但從老百姓的訴訟權應該可以導出：老百姓有訴訟權的話，就是要公平的審判。公平的審判其實就是要看這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合事實，在這個過程裡面，到底符不符合法律的正當程序。我要特別提醒，刑事訴訟法第三百七十九條所規範的判決當然違背法令，第三百七十九條那十四款裡面講得那麼清楚，如果把它定性成公開播送就是直播，那開什麼玩笑？任何一件你沒有去公開直播的話，那最高法院就忙死了，每一個案件都是判決違背法令。如果按照民眾的講法是你這個人可惡、你這個人該死，哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵、哪怕有刑求、哪怕有人偽證，但是最後發現剛好事實都是真的，只是審判過程違法而已，那都不可以啊！其實我們已經變成是一個文明的國家。我先講結論再來推論，公開審理是憲法的權利，主要目的是保障被告的公平審判，這不是為了滿足群眾的好奇心，不管是國外或者是我們的大法官也都去肯認。民眾本來就享有向法院提起事實審判的請求權，而且包括聽審、公正程序及公開審判的請求權與程序上的平等。公開審理有一個好處，就是大眾滿足他知的權利，藉由審理的過程，讓整個法治的教育可以提升；藉由公開，社會當然也就會對司法比較信任。如果你把公開審理到最後導成是直播，而不是其核心價值是公平審判的話……我記得審查的過程當中我講得很清楚，大家也都討論過，你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的壓力，這對於整個事實的發現或者真相的發現，其實都是一種障礙。像我們當辯護人的、當律師的，只要一直播的話，碰到這種直播，有一造去當被告的辯護人，那也要承受很大的壓力，大家會獵巫啊！像那種殺人的案件，你也敢去當人家的律師？像性侵那麼可惡的事情，你也敢去當人家的律師？就是因為重罪，所以被告的辯護權，他本身的權益更特別要去保障他，為什麼？怕凸槌嘛！你看以前有時候案件發生之後，那個A可不可惡？很可惡，他去殺人啊！可是當年很多警察辦案是認為他已經殺了一個人，那他就一定殺了很多人，乾脆所有的案子都放到他身上去。他如果殺了一個人，你判他死刑合理；但他殺一個人，你判他三個死刑，說三件刑事案件都是他幹的，全部栽給他？這其實是為了滿足民眾，說這個人好可惡、要判死刑，他該被判死刑。可是他如果只殺一個，你不應該說他殺三個人。","我就非常的感慨，所以本席反而必須要來還原，當初我們在審法院組織法的時候，這個過程大家都很清楚，你讓他去公開播送，這個在法界當然有爭議。本席當初是想說、沒關係啦，尤其是法律審，尤其是受社會重大矚目的案件，只要少事法庭、家事法庭、智財法庭把這個部分排除的話，那是好事。其實那也是我們召開公聽會以後，學者專家大家認為有疑慮：立法院不能這樣亂搞、不能這樣民粹修法，所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈第一個先把它拆解掉了。","黨團協商的時候，大家也講得很清楚，大家要的其實也不是直播，就是要整個公開播送，而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後播送，我反而是肯認這樣的做法。對於司法，我最擔心的就是到最後淪為政治上的競技場，直播對當事人未必是好事，我倒不認為法官會被獵巫，那個是反射的不利益，但是畢竟整個法院是為人民而存在，進步的我們當然要採取，可是你現在貿然說公開播送就等於直播？這個本席表達反對。以這樣的推論，還有剛剛其他委員的批評，不曉得副秘書長有什麼看法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：首先感謝委員剛才很精闢的論述。關於司法行政，其實我們從來做每件事情的主旨都是在促進與維護審判的公正，也就是委員所說的公平審判。所以公播它可能是一個目的，如果它會促進公平審判的話。可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的，不是說今天大家開庭就是為了播送給大家看，所以我們為了避免在立法過程中大家所提及的疑慮，也就是你一邊開一邊播。現在是自媒體時代，每個人都可以在播的時候寫評論，所以可能就會有上萬則評論說應該怎麼樣、怎麼樣，這些東西會回饋到訴訟者的表現，還有我們最擔心的是這些所謂的輿論公審會影響到判決。因此我們保持了公播的目的，就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形，讓它透明化，我們維持了這個目的，但是又避免審判時個資、隱私的干擾，還有最重要是會影響到判決的公正性，所以把它放在宣判了之後，就是把它還原、把它播出，因此我們做了這樣子的設計。"],["莊委員瑞雄：讓法院越透明，其實這是好事。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：而且讓民眾增加對司法的信賴，其實那都可以理解，但是我認為公開播送不等於公開直播，而且事後播送還是一樣把整個法庭的活動公開，只是不涉及到隱私的部分，並讓民眾知道，其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明！否則的話，如果全部都是用即時直播這樣的方式，其實只有老百姓覺得很爽這樣而已，民眾會覺得：好爽喔，你看法庭上的活動就是這樣！然後大家開始來評論，我不認為這對當事人是一件好事。","我接下來要請教的是，針對這一次精神衛生法的規定有幾個問題要來就教副秘書長。我們看這一次精神衛生法與參審制度有關的部分，不曉得司法院針對這部分到底準備好了沒有？對於專家參審的法庭制度，由職業法官、醫療專家及病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行審理，我們在2022年12月14號三讀修正通過以後，對司法院來講是一個很大的變革，其實對於司法審查制度也是全面的升級，明年就要上路了嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是有幾個問題我必須提出來。面對這樣跨專業制度的轉型，法官可能會碰到很多新的問題，比如現在法官獨審變成參審，跟其他兩位參審員分配訊問的部分你怎麼處理？或者說醫界跟法界之間專業的隔閡，你如何在短時間裡面讓法官快速釐清案情並做出裁定？所以我要請教司法院的就是對於這個即將上路的制度，我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備及因應措施？比如教育的訓練、專業的資源、諮詢的制度，這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實與品質，我不曉得副秘書長你的看法如何？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員關心，首先是有關於專家參審的新制，我們要做的措施非常多。這段期間以來都有跟衛福部等相關部會進行跨部會協調並訂定子法，在硬體方面也有新的法庭建構及資訊系統，因為時間關係，這些我就不詳細說明了。至於委員所關心的這個問題，沒有錯，法官和醫界對於這項新制度都需要有培力，所以我們辦了很多跨領域合作的社區共識營及工作坊，這也就是共識培力，亦即對於相關的法官、醫界、心理、社工等領域的專家進行共識培力。另外，對於推廣這樣的制度，我們跟一般的民眾對話，也辦了很多的社區共識營來做社會溝通。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我比較擔心的是什麼呢？比如過去法官並沒有參與這一塊，你現在把法官納進來，依法官的習性，法官就是認為如果有涉及到類似強制處分的問題，就要把人送去醫院。依照精神衛生法第七十條的規定，針對嚴重病患沒有代理人的部分，法院應該選任律師擔任代理人，並且指派程序監理人。這就碰到一個問題了，如果代理人希望病患不要去醫院，也就是律師說不要去，但程序監理人卻認為他應該送到醫院去，這時候法官要怎麼裁定？法官看到律師與程序代理人意見相左的時候怎麼辦？程序監理人認為已經達到強制住院的標準，應該進行保護性的處置，但律師認為不要去醫院對當事人比較好，這時候法官要怎麼做出裁定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這部分我讓廳長來回復。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：謝謝委員的垂詢。這部分我們陸續一直在開針對專家參審與職業法官、法扶律師的會議，目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法扶律師進去，一旦聲請到法院來審理要不要強制住院的時候，視為緊急安置繼續中，所以我們已經跟法扶取得共識，這時候由法扶律師繼續來法庭進行陳述及維護病人的權益。關於法扶律師及程序監理人，現在由幾個公會推出來在精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師，我們都一起有非常多的討論共識，模擬法庭了十三次，都有讓他們來做溝通練習，還有做評議的練習。我們去觀察，然後把這些蒐集以後，現在正在訂定審理相關準則及評議規則，然後讓它能夠落實專業、溝通並達成實際的效果，以上報告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們要做的倒不是只有新的審理程序，其實更重要的是讓病人跟家屬都可以安心。除了法官這樣的訓練與模擬法庭之外，我也期待司法院要更去加強的部分，比如參審法庭空間的規劃、設備的設置、改建工程的進度，像這些都要再去加把勁，畢竟司法過去並沒有參與到這一塊！這一塊以前不是你們在處理的！問題在於法官也不是上帝，以現在來看的話，精神衛生法這樣子的規定是一個進步的修法，必須要有那麼多的團體參與而且還有跨部會，到最後為了讓法官來把關，讓司法的密度提升，除了人員的訓練以外，你也必須把這些當成是未來司法的一部分，該加強的部分還是要去建置，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供之相關資料或以書面答復者，請司法院儘速送交個別委員及司委會。","賴惠員委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄、刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}}